I don't like using flourish on dancer

As much as I love proccing every single skill it's a pain to have to move into melee range for rising windmill and bloodshower. For a ranged dps you have to stay awfully close to the boss just to land some of your skills.

It would honestly be nice if Flourish gave enhanced versions of the aforementioned skills that have increased range and damage (15y would be nice since it's the same as the dances.)

Honestly DNC're like the RDM of the physical range role and are more of a mid-range than full range. I guess that's why you get 3 stacks of your dash skill; dash in, do moves, dash out. It makes the job feel faster and busy honestly, altho the GCD kinda kills the Flourish feel to me. I'd rather Flourish made your procs have the same GCD as your step motions during it's duration, kinda like how Rapid Fire worked on old MCH.

I enjoy that part =/. It make us move around more and it has an incentive. You can always just move away after spending these procs and return to throwing your chakrams. Also, when you use the Finishing dances you need to get close too, so it seems this flow of moving in and out is part of what it is be a dancer. Those who enjoy staying put in the distance have a lot of options (BLM, BRD and MCH).

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Originally Posted by Kidria

Honestly DNC're like the RDM of the physical range role and are more of a mid-range than full range. I guess that's why you get 3 stacks of your dash skill; dash in, do moves, dash out. It makes the job feel faster and busy honestly, altho the GCD kinda kills the Flourish feel to me. I'd rather Flourish made your procs have the same GCD as your step motions during it's duration, kinda like how Rapid Fire worked on old MCH.

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Honestly I would have no problem going into melee range for rising windmill and bloodshower except the skills are only better than your typical 1 2 ranged combo because of the proc chance, which in itself doesn't seem rewarding. RDM has a 1200 potency finisher for the melee combo where all you get for stepping into melee range is a CHANCE to get a 150 potency ogcd which has a chance to give you a 200 potency ogcd.

Albeit I haven't leveled to 80 yet and I'll probably get used to it, but it definitely doesn't feel rewarding to get procs considering the abysmal potency

250 beats 200 (your basic range spammer) and 300 beats 250 (your basic ranged combo).

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

250 beats 200 (your basic range spammer) and 300 beats 250 (your basic ranged combo).

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I can read potencies, that isn't what the thread is about

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

it's a pain to have to move into melee range for rising windmill and bloodshower. For a ranged dps you have to stay awfully close to the boss just to land some of your skills.

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Everyone should be close enough regardless of role that this isn't a burden. Nobody should ever be out in left field even if they can hit everything from there; that's just a basic lesson every ranged DD in this game needs to learn. Besides, you have no cast times and no channeled moves aside from Improvisation, which you only use in situations that moot this point; and you even have a teleport skill with three charges for quick position changes.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Honestly I would have no problem going into melee range for rising windmill and bloodshower except the skills are only better than your typical 1 2 ranged combo because of the proc chance, which in itself doesn't seem rewarding. RDM has a 1200 potency finisher for the melee combo where all you get for stepping into melee range is a CHANCE to get a 150 potency ogcd which has a chance to give you a 200 potency ogcd.

Albeit I haven't leveled to 80 yet and I'll probably get used to it, but it definitely doesn't feel rewarding to get procs considering the abysmal potency

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The procs kill me on Flourish sometimes (I've had times where throughout a fight I'd get absolutely no feathers and used Flourish at least 3 times) but the comparison wasn't so much the attacks and pots as it was more the playstyle--quick in and out of range 'feel' compared to others of their respective role.

In terms of the actual technical aspect, Flourish is still kinda clunky in a way, but I can see how it fits with the 'playstyle' they go for. I doubt they'll do a damage increase on it, but maybe dance-range or smaller gcd would be nice and feel more 'in pace' with the rest.

I'm not 80 either though (will be in maybe an hour if I quit getting distracted) but there isn't much Improv will do to this sort of thing, really.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Everyone should be close enough regardless of role that this isn't a burden. Nobody should ever be out in left field even if they can hit everything from there; that's just a basic lesson every ranged DD in this game needs to learn. Besides, you have no cast times and no channeled moves aside from Improvisation, which you only use in situations that moot this point; and you even have a teleport skill with three charges for quick position changes.

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Part of me disagrees with this not because you’re wrong, but because I started with the era of MMOs where threat worked differently if you were in melee range vs max range. Ranged dps were always at max range. It’s just engrained behavior.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

I can read potencies, that isn't what the thread is about

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Um . . . you literally just called them abysmal potencies not worth using over your normal combo, that you only use them to get procs. That's not true, though. Using those two WS literally is a potency increase and thus a dps increase, even if you get no procs out of them. They're absolutely worth it, and you're a physical ranged dps. We have the most mobility in the game, and have no reason not to be moving to do something as we lose nothing from moving.

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Originally Posted by Kidria

Honestly DNC're like the RDM of the physical range role and are more of a mid-range than full range. I guess that's why you get 3 stacks of your dash skill; dash in, do moves, dash out. It makes the job feel faster and busy honestly, altho the GCD kinda kills the Flourish feel to me. I'd rather Flourish made your procs have the same GCD as your step motions during it's duration, kinda like how Rapid Fire worked on old MCH.

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A 1s GCD for the procs would be awful, because a DNC's Flourished procs also grant Feathers. You need to be able to weave a feather between the procs if you hit 4 to prevent overcapping; which, weaving with an 1.5s GCD on MCH was already a pain in the butt at higher latencies (and still is). I'd rather not see it introduced to another job. The 1s for steps works because you aren't able to weave anything between them - this wouldn't work in practice with Flourished skills.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Everyone should be close enough regardless of role that this isn't a burden. Nobody should ever be out in left field even if they can hit everything from there; that's just a basic lesson every ranged DD in this game needs to learn. Besides, you have no cast times and no channeled moves aside from Improvisation, which you only use in situations that moot this point; and you even have a teleport skill with three charges for quick position changes.

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This is a good general rule of thumb, but not true 100% of the time for all ranged jobs. There are fights where it's better for BLM to be away (though still within aoe healing range, ideally) so that they won't have to move as much, and them being away from the group won't cause any issue for the group. There's also some mechanics where particularly people will want to be away from the group most, if not all, of the time (Ifrit Ex back in 2.x, as a rather old example X3).

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Everyone should be close enough regardless of role that this isn't a burden. Nobody should ever be out in left field even if they can hit everything from there; that's just a basic lesson every ranged DD in this game needs to learn. Besides, you have no cast times and no channeled moves aside from Improvisation, which you only use in situations that moot this point; and you even have a teleport skill with three charges for quick position changes.

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I think you're underestimating how short the range on the aoe skills is, all of the aoe skills have a 5y radius compared to a melee dps' 3y radius. That's not much of a difference.

I don't see how being say 10y away from the boss, behind your healers but still in their aoe heal range is a bad thing. If I wanted to stay in melee range all the time I'd go with I dunno, DRG?

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Um . . . you literally just called them abysmal potencies not worth using over your normal combo, that you only use them to get procs. That's not true, though. Using those two WS literally is a potency increase and thus a dps increase, even if you get no procs out of them. They're absolutely worth it, and you're a physical ranged dps. We have the most mobility in the game, and have no reason not to be moving to do something as we lose nothing from moving.

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Ohhh I see, I misworded what I was saying there.

What I meant to say is that for the near melee range (5y compared to a melee dps having a 3y range) the skills are only marginally better, you only get about 50 potency and the proc chance, and in exchange you have to move super close because the skills are easy to miss unless you're so close

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Ohhh I see, I misworded what I was saying there.

What I meant to say is that for the near melee range (5y compared to a melee dps having a 3y range) the skills are only marginally better, you only get about 50 potency and the proc chance, and in exchange you have to move super close because the skills are easy to miss unless you're so close

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I dunno. I mean, there's times I find myself having to let them drop because I simply won't be in range, but I tend to be moving a lot as Dancer anyway, and extra DPS is always of appeal to me. I'll also use them first if I know an aoe is coming that's gonna push me away from the boss, as well as know I won't have steps to hinder me getting off all my flourishes. I will admit I wouldn't mind a little more range on them. I've never understood why the primary AoEs on all of the physical ranged DPS have always been such short range abilities, though at least we get PBAoEs instead of short range cone aoes like Bard and MCH get.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

I think you're underestimating how short the range on the aoe skills is, all of the aoe skills have a 5y radius compared to a melee dps' 3y radius. That's not much of a difference.

I don't see how being say 10y away from the boss, behind your healers but still in their aoe heal range is a bad thing. If I wanted to stay in melee range all the time I'd go with I dunno, DRG?

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Well, Rongway is referring to how on a lot of bosses (most commonly in savage or extreme content), the ideal is to have everyone stacked on the boss's tail except for the MT, so that various mechanics can be more easily dodged because they're clumped instead of spread out. This first started with things like Titan HM where being stacked like this made it much easier to dodge Weights of the Land because that made them all be clumped up in one place. That way you didn't accidentally run into someone else's trying to get out of yours. If there's a WHM in the party, this clumping up also allows use of Cure III instead of Medica, which is more potent and more MP efficient for aoe healing, but has a massively smaller range (more akin to our current PBAoE WS ranges that you're complaining about, possibly smaller).

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Honestly I would have no problem going into melee range for rising windmill and bloodshower except the skills are only better than your typical 1 2 ranged combo because of the proc chance, which in itself doesn't seem rewarding. RDM has a 1200 potency finisher for the melee combo where all you get for stepping into melee range is a CHANCE to get a 150 potency ogcd which has a chance to give you a 200 potency ogcd.

Albeit I haven't leveled to 80 yet and I'll probably get used to it, but it definitely doesn't feel rewarding to get procs considering the abysmal potency

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Your technical step can do over 100k damage while ur in melee range tho :D if that feels anymore satisfying.

RDM and dancer suffer this with procs, because the systems built around the concept of building and maximising procs they move from “moments of excitement” to they’re just there.

You have to remember these jobs are built to proc constantly. Not just occasionally around core rotation.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

Your technical step can do over 100k damage while ur in melee range tho :D if that feels anymore satisfying.

RDM and dancer suffer this with procs, because the systems built around the concept of building and maximising procs they move from “moments of excitement” to they’re just there.

You have to remember these jobs are built to proc constantly. Not just occasionally around core rotation.

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Well, against a single-target, your AOE procs are timed around a relatively core rotation—Flourish is every 60s; so you can wager that, every minute, you’ll have to move into melee range for them. You’ll never be using your AOE combo on a single-target to proc them outside of Flourish, and the other Flourished procs (Reverse Cascade, Fountainfall, Fan Dance III) can all be executed from range. It’s just Rising Windmill and Bloodshower where you have to move into immediate melee range during Flourish windows.

Ideally, your AOE procs should always be used when you Flourish, because they are free damage AND they have a chance to proc your Feathers. If one ends up dropping, it should be Rising Windmill, as Bloodshower is a 125 potency loss if dropped, and Rising Windmill is a 75 potency loss if dropped. Ideally, though, you should try to get all four out. The only time where one may drop is during Technical Finish windows, where Saber Dance and Standard Step/Finish may take priority over your weaker Flourished procs (Fountainfall and Reverse Cascade should never be allowed to drop).

I mean you're going to be standing in melee range most of the time anyway, so what's the problem, again?

I think they should make DNC's AoE weaponskills work like Saber Dance and be targeted AoEs on and around your target.

I find it fun having to move between the ranged and melee attacks during Flourish phases. Like others have said generally you’re going to be in melee range of the boss anyway and when you aren’t it’s easy enough to En Avant towards to the enemy. I generally stay at the centre of the party anyway, so I can hit as many targets as I possible with Curing Waltz / Improvisation if they’re needed (depending on situation of course)

I can see problems with any group that has a caster and a Dancer, and ranged baiting (ie, UCoB, UWU, o11s, etc) is a thing. The dancer will either be forced to range, or the caster will be forced to do movement mechanics...and right now, no caster likes doing movement anything.

While yes it is physical ranged i still prefer to be closer to the front anyhow.
Dancer is very mobile it is not like you cannot go in closer and move out when you need to be closer to your Dance partner. I find just standing in a spot feels like does not flow as well so i like to move around
The distance is not great but also not as bad as some are making it sound. It would not hurt if they increase it some i suppose

Hard disagree, flourish is fine and fun.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

I can see problems with any group that has a caster and a Dancer, and ranged baiting (ie, UCoB, UWU, o11s, etc) is a thing. The dancer will either be forced to range, or the caster will be forced to do movement mechanics...and right now, no caster likes doing movement anything.

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Thats the point of having the job play so easily in rotation.
Of course this can be ignored with another p.ranged DPS, if not, then the DNC has to work out a way to maximize personal and raid DPS for those mechanics. (I dont play DNC myself, but when i did RDM, and had to get into position, for mechanics, and it was time for me to melee, i had to do work arounds. such as mana dumping, etc. idk what the DNC equivalent options would be. I havent even bothered looking into it.)

I like it. Makes DNC a bit more interesting having to be conscious of your range and movement.

The job is called dancer so dancing in and out just makes sense.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

I can see problems with any group that has a caster and a Dancer, and ranged baiting (ie, UCoB, UWU, o11s, etc) is a thing. The dancer will either be forced to range, or the caster will be forced to do movement mechanics...and right now, no caster likes doing movement anything.

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Originally Posted by MaraD_

Thats the point of having the job play so easily in rotation.
Of course this can be ignored with another p.ranged DPS, if not, then the DNC has to work out a way to maximize personal and raid DPS for those mechanics. (I dont play DNC myself, but when i did RDM, and had to get into position, for mechanics, and it was time for me to melee, i had to do work arounds. such as mana dumping, etc. idk what the DNC equivalent options would be. I havent even bothered looking into it.)

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Dncs should if they know they need to be mechanic baiting far away from the boss be using Bloodshower/Rising Windmill 1st during flourish, if flourish comes off cd while baiting then the 20s timer should be enough time to finish baiting and get these gcds off. Now i haven't tried Ultimates with Dnc so unsure on timings for those but o11s your not far off the boss long enough for this to be an issue.

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Originally Posted by Irohma

I enjoy that part =/. It make us move around more and it has an incentive. You can always just move away after spending these procs and return to throwing your chakrams. Also, when you use the Finishing dances you need to get close too, so it seems this flow of moving in and out is part of what it is be a dancer. Those who enjoy staying put in the distance have a lot of options (BLM, BRD and MCH).

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Also, you don't actually have to be *too* close to do finishes. It's a 15yalm around you. So it's more mid-range than up and personal with the boss. Don't have to be within melee range for it to actually hit.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Dncs should if they know they need to be mechanic baiting far away from the boss be using Bloodshower/Rising Windmill 1st during flourish, if flourish comes off cd while baiting then the 20s timer should be enough time to finish baiting and get these gcds off. Now i haven't tried Ultimates with Dnc so unsure on timings for those but o11s your not far off the boss long enough for this to be an issue.

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I'm considering UwU right now, and Flourish would be used in the opener for Ifrit, and then 60 seconds later, which would be right around when the second Eruptions are happening. However, it would probably be possible to squeeze them out before moving away, or holding them long enough to make it back to the boss where people stack for the dashes. I'd have to actually do it in practice, but I'm basing this off of where my BRD rotation usually was - I entered Army's Paeon during Hellfire, which would be around where a DNC would be able to Flourish again, and you can get a few GCDs off before having to disengage to bait. Third Eruptions (if you opt to hold and see them) won't be an issue as you'll sit on Flourish for your opener on Titan.

For Predation baiting, it's likely that it will still be on CD from the opener. By the time you circle back around to Ultima is likely when it would come off cooldown again, and you'll be stacking close to him up until the Plumes appear and you move back to bait Titan's Landslide. For Annihilation, I'd have to map out a bit more but I think it will also be fine. Flourish would line up with Chain, so it won't be used again until after the Annihilation tether funness and closer towards Suppression's cast. So I think, in UwU at least, Flourish will be easy to manage. I plan to clear it again on DNC, so we'll see if my Quick mental timelining is accurate.

UCoB would be tricker with Twintania if the DNC is to bait. The first Liquid Hells won't be an issue since it's on CD from the opener. It's the others that would probably take some finagling. I'll see what it's like when I go back into there as well.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Well, Rongway is referring to how on a lot of bosses (most commonly in savage or extreme content), the ideal is to have everyone stacked on the boss's tail except for the MT, so that various mechanics can be more easily dodged because they're clumped instead of spread out. This first started with things like Titan HM where being stacked like this made it much easier to dodge Weights of the Land because that made them all be clumped up in one place. That way you didn't accidentally run into someone else's trying to get out of yours. If there's a WHM in the party, this clumping up also allows use of Cure III instead of Medica, which is more potent and more MP efficient for aoe healing, but has a massively smaller range (more akin to our current PBAoE WS ranges that you're complaining about, possibly smaller).

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Fair point, but not every boss needs you to be clumped up on their rear and I don't see any point to it unless mechanics require it, otherwise it doesn't really feel like you're playing a range class, just a low potency melee support

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Originally Posted by Drayos

Your technical step can do over 100k damage while ur in melee range tho :D if that feels anymore satisfying.

RDM and dancer suffer this with procs, because the systems built around the concept of building and maximising procs they move from “moments of excitement” to they’re just there.

You have to remember these jobs are built to proc constantly. Not just occasionally around core rotation.

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Honestly part of my issue is that RDM's melee combo is super satisfying to get off and end with a backflip, dancer's "melee combo" just kinda feels disruptive for little payoff.

I'm hoping they'll address this in the future since as a person who's played RDM a lot I actually enjoy moving into melee range for finishers, but there's a 25% chance that you'll move into melee range and get 0 procs off the 2 aoe skills and only gain about 100 potency, which, whoop dee doo so exciting

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Fair point, but not every boss needs you to be clumped up on their rear and I don't see any point to it unless mechanics require it, otherwise it doesn't really feel like you're playing a range class, just a low potency melee support

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Conversely, there isn't much reason to stand at max range either. I tend to stay relatively close to the bosses (even on ranged) and only disengage if need be. It makes it much easier on healers that way, too; because they should also be centered near the party for their AOE heals to hit.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Honestly part of my issue is that RDM's melee combo is super satisfying to get off and end with a backflip, dancer's "melee combo" just kinda feels disruptive for little payoff.

I'm hoping they'll address this in the future since as a person who's played RDM a lot I actually enjoy moving into melee range for finishers, but there's a 25% chance that you'll move into melee range and get 0 procs off the 2 aoe skills and only gain about 100 potency, which, whoop dee doo so exciting

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Flourish will be up around the same time you're dancing for your big boi Standard Finish or super big boi Technical Finish in most instances. Even with the drifting caused by Standard/Technical being on the GCD. It's the same idea you've presented here with the RDM melee combo. You should already be moving in to range for your Finishes - the Flourished AOE procs are just icing on that cake.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Conversely, there isn't much reason to stand at max range either. I tend to stay relatively close to the bosses (even on ranged) and only disengage if need be. It makes it much easier on healers that way, too; because they should also be centered near the party for their AOE heals to hit.

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I actually never stand at max range, I started the game healing so I usually stood mid range for max aoe coverage and still do. (Between the casters/ranged in the back and the melee/tanks in the front.)

I just wish the aoes skills had a higher range so that it wasn't necessary to move into near melee range to land them. I know a lot of people enjoy that aspect of dancer but it's a bit annoying to me because it doesn't feel satisfying or really enhance the feel of the job.

It's obviously my opinion and I shouldn't be playing dancer if I want better range but I've just been trying out all the ranged classes to see what I enjoy and I like dancer minus that one aspect of it.

Is it a nice QoL change yes. Is it needed no people are just being lazy

Its all part of the dance, my friend! You put your left foot in, you put your left foot out, you put your left foot in and you shake it all about! You do the final flourishes and you turn yourself around, thats what its all about!

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Originally Posted by Hezzlocks

Its all part of the dance, my friend! You put your left foot in, you put your left foot out, you put your left foot in and you shake it all about! You do the final flourishes and you turn yourself around, thats what its all about!

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You my dear sir is getting a hug

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Originally Posted by Hezzlocks

Its all part of the dance, my friend! You put your left foot in, you put your left foot out, you put your left foot in and you shake it all about! You do the final flourishes and you turn yourself around, thats what its all about!

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And do si do!

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I'm considering UwU right now, and Flourish would be used in the opener for Ifrit, and then 60 seconds later, which would be right around when the second Eruptions are happening. However, it would probably be possible to squeeze them out before moving away, or holding them long enough to make it back to the boss where people stack for the dashes. I'd have to actually do it in practice, but I'm basing this off of where my BRD rotation usually was - I entered Army's Paeon during Hellfire, which would be around where a DNC would be able to Flourish again, and you can get a few GCDs off before having to disengage to bait. Third Eruptions (if you opt to hold and see them) won't be an issue as you'll sit on Flourish for your opener on Titan.

For Predation baiting, it's likely that it will still be on CD from the opener. By the time you circle back around to Ultima is likely when it would come off cooldown again, and you'll be stacking close to him up until the Plumes appear and you move back to bait Titan's Landslide. For Annihilation, I'd have to map out a bit more but I think it will also be fine. Flourish would line up with Chain, so it won't be used again until after the Annihilation tether funness and closer towards Suppression's cast. So I think, in UwU at least, Flourish will be easy to manage. I plan to clear it again on DNC, so we'll see if my Quick mental timelining is accurate.

UCoB would be tricker with Twintania if the DNC is to bait. The first Liquid Hells won't be an issue since it's on CD from the opener. It's the others that would probably take some finagling. I'll see what it's like when I go back into there as well.

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That is really interesting i've been working out fights that i have yet to re-do since becoming a dnc around how my nin used to work since Flourish will be up roughly around the same timeframe as trick attack was, while i could speak on Savage, Ultimates i couldn't speak on beyond Ifrit/Nael as that is as far as i got with my group before they took breaks.

Currently for Eden savage i'll have to remember for second boss to go stand on the corner to get dmg up buff pre-pull without pulling the boss XD, lots of new interactions going from a melee to physical range (auto attack being one of the biggest pre-pull offenders)

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Originally Posted by Kidria

I'd rather Flourish made your procs have the same GCD as your step motions during it's duration, kinda like how Rapid Fire worked on old MCH.

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THIS!
This would make it more fun and interesting~Legit the only reason i hate Flourish is cause im a sitting duck at the boss to use the AoEs id rather use em instantly and back off