Samurai Meditation and Shoha

Really worthless skills it would honestly make no difference to the class if these skills were gotten rid of. At least make meditation allow you to move while using it or something, even then, med and shoha would be mediocre, not amazing.

I mean DNC's dance can do 1000 potency. Shoha is basically an insult to SAM.

Shoha imo is a poorly designed skill. 500 potency for 15 seconds of meditation (which, really, you're not going to get that much downtime hardly ever) is laughable. It should be retooled or replaced with something else. If retooled, it needs higher potency and to not be reliant on meditate. Perhaps make it dependent on sen consumption or iai usage.

I've been toying around with one that would make up for the loss of Hagakure that would maybe replace Shoha.

Kiai:
Consumes Sen to give you increased damage, skill speed, and crit dependent on the sen consumed.
Setsu- 5% Crit
Ka- 5% skill speed
Getsu- 5% damage

1m duration

I'm being a bit conservative on the increases there. I wouldn't mind seeing a flat 10% to each honestly. The duration could be played around with, but you get the gist of the skill.

Ya, like I don't even have it on my bar. I refuse to use it. Don't care what others say. It breaks the flow of Sam.

When I can go through a whole dungeon not using a skill then you know its trash. Same with the Eden fights, hardly any downtime to use it so why is it even there. Replace this skill or make it so you can get stacks from Iaijutsu usage with midare etc. Sad part? It has the best animation and its given to a skill that's basically never used like why SE.

Awww. You got one situationally useful skill I’m your toolkit? Let me play you the world’s smallest violin.

Monk’s entire toolkit these days is situationally useful skills.

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Originally Posted by Miziliti

I mean DNC's dance can do 1000 potency. Shoha is basically an insult to SAM.

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Comparing the dance to Shoha seems like cherry picking doesn't it? Wouldn't you compare it to Midare which can also do over 1000 potency?

Yes, you would, unless you wanted it to look bad.

I suppose it wouldn't be as bad if it had potency to match its rare use. As of now its just so underwhelming to get the floppy noodle attack as your final level 80 skill.

@wereotter I'm sorry that your class has issues. I really am. But just because yours has similar or more issues, doesn't make the issues of others any less worthwhile discussing. I would suggest instead of trying to push the concern of others away as worthless, you turn around and look at your own issues and seek a solution.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Ya, like I don't even have it on my bar. I refuse to use it. Don't care what others say. It breaks the flow of Sam.

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No it doesn't. You don't use it mid combat, you use it when there is nothing to hit so how is it breaking your 'flow' which is otherwise standing there doing nothing?

People seem to forget that 500 is a high potency in any job. You're being spoiled by your 1000+ potency skills, 500 free potency is great. It's 500 free potency, who would complain about that?

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Originally Posted by mb52139

I suppose it wouldn't be as bad if it had potency to match its rare use. As of now its just so underwhelming to get the floppy noodle attack as your final level 80 skill.

@wereotter I'm sorry that your class has issues. I really am. But just because yours has similar or more issues, doesn't make the issues of others any less worthwhile discussing. I would suggest instead of trying to push the concern of others away as worthless, you turn around and look at your own issues and seek a solution.

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No, I think that complaining that now you have something you have to do during jump phases and down time is a bit ironic considering how busy monk is and has been for the past 4-5 years during those phases. Monk has to do it's meditations to gain chakra stacks, form shift to get back into the right stance, now time out tornado kick/six sided star/find a safe spot for anatman/time out the usage of riddle of earth all while potentially still dodging mechanics.

Samurais have to hit meditate (something you should have been doing anyway) and now you get rewarded with a free attack when that's all over. This skill is situational, yes, but it's free potency. Lets not also forget that you're not just getting the 500 potency attack from Shoha when you meditate during a jump phase, but you're probably also getting at least one free Shinten out of the deal which means you're getting at least 820 potency from meditating, and again this is all just free damage you're gaining for doing nothing except finding a place to plop yourself and hitting one button. Forgive me for not having sympathy that you have to sit and do nothing during down time and get rewarded with extra damage when the fight starts back up again. This skill is a non-issue.

I think Shoha the skill is fine, it basically doubles the amount of potency you can come back with after a down phase. Is it a little lack luster for a level 80 skill? Maybe, but 500 potency is hardly a “wet noodle”, but the devs also made a point of saying that they didn’t want anything that was a significant game changer at 80 this expansion.

It’s certainly not as aggressively terrible as say, Tornado Kick or any other number of overly niche skills are on Monk.

I just don't find the skill that worth it. I use it, of course, because a free hit after phase transition is a free hit. Still, over the course of a fight like Titania Ex, you'll use it twice for a 50-80 dps gain for the whole fight. It's really just a tiny drop in the bucket that won't make much difference if you use it or not. I think that's my biggest issue. That and you can never see the full animation because you'll use it as soon as you can and cancel the animation with your next GCD anyway.

It's not completely useless. It's just kinda there and doesn't really add anything to the Samurai toolkit and you wouldn't really notice if it was gone. Seigan is the same way.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

I just don't find the skill that worth it. I use it, of course, because a free hit after phase transition is a free hit. Still, over the course of a fight like Titania Ex, you'll use it twice for a 50-80 dps gain for the whole fight. It's really just a tiny drop in the bucket that won't make much difference if you use it or not. I think that's my biggest issue. That and you can never see the full animation because you'll use it as soon as you can and cancel the animation with your next GCD anyway.

It's not completely useless. It's just kinda there and doesn't really add anything to the Samurai toolkit and you wouldn't really notice if it was gone. Seigan is the same way.

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Should you not hit a gcd first then Shoha to stop your gcd standing idle for half a second? Not the biggest deal but every little helps right?

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

I think Shoha the skill is fine, it basically doubles the amount of potency you can come back with after a down phase. Is it a little lack luster for a level 80 skill? Maybe, but 500 potency is hardly a “wet noodle”, but the devs also made a point of saying that they didn’t want anything that was a significant game changer at 80 this expansion.

It’s certainly not as aggressively terrible as say, Tornado Kick or any other number of overly niche skills are on Monk.

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How does it double the potency? I haven't had a fight other than Titania that I could actually use Shoha at any meaningful potency. In most other fights you can at best get 1-2 stacks before you have to move for mechanics, which means a 100-200 potency shoha, essentially worthless.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

How does it double the potency? I haven't had a fight other than Titania that I could actually use Shoha at any meaningful potency. In most other fights you can at best get 1-2 stacks before you have to move for mechanics, which means a 100-200 potency shoha, essentially worthless.

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50 Sen= 2 Shintens for a full Meditation=640 potency. A 5 Stack Shoha is 500 potency on top of that. It's not exactly double, but it's still a sizeable boost on top of what you'd get from Meditate on its own.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

50 Sen= 2 Shintens for a full Meditation=640 potency. A 5 Stack Shoha is 500 potency on top of that. It's not exactly double, but it's still a sizeable boost on top of what you'd get from Meditate on its own.

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You meant 50 Kenki? Again, not many fights can get a full 5 stack shoha, the only one so far is Titania. It takes 15 seconds to get that 50 Kenki, and you can't move or even turn your character during that 15s.

The simplest fix to me seems to be to just remove the requirement that meditation be channeled. Just have it become a buff that slowly gives us kenki and can end with the 500 potency nuke. It might not be that interesting or involved with our class mechanics, but at the least it won't be useless.

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Originally Posted by Vitreus

The simplest fix to me seems to be to just remove the requirement that meditation be channeled. Just have it become a buff that slowly gives us kenki and can end with the 500 potency nuke. It might not be that interesting or involved with our class mechanics, but at the least it won't be useless.

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Yep, the thing is, I don't even care if meditation and shoha become some kind of damage increase, even if they made them something like "reduce incoming damage for x seconds." or something, I would still take it. Although, personally I think it would be cool to have shoba become a skill like Omnislash from Dota 2 Juggernaut, in my opinion this would be a worthy lvl 80 skill.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

Yep, the thing is, I don't even care if meditation and shoha become some kind of damage increase, even if they made them something like "reduce incoming damage for x seconds." or something, I would still take it. Although, personally I think it would be cool to have shoba become a skill like Omnislash from Dota 2 Juggernaut, in my opinion this would be a worthy lvl 80 skill.

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Omnislash... Oooooooh yes please. That would undoubtedly never make me touch another DPS job again in this game. It'd be too fun XD

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Originally Posted by Carstien

Should you not hit a gcd first then Shoha to stop your gcd standing idle for half a second? Not the biggest deal but every little helps right?

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Yeah, I usually at least Hakaze first and Jinpu if the buff fell off during phase transition. Still, don't ever really get to see the full animation once you get enough skill speed, especially if Shifu buff is up as well.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

You meant 50 Kenki? Again, not many fights can get a full 5 stack shoha, the only one so far is Titania. It takes 15 seconds to get that 50 Kenki, and you can't move or even turn your character during that 15s.

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You can't move? You mean like how monks also can't move or turn your character while using Anatman to maintain greased lightning during that same type of phase? Yet samurai gets an extra attack and job resource while monks get to just not drop greased lightning....

I get that a lot of samurais are disappointed with this skill, but the complaints are seriously overblown when you look at the myriad other issues in this game and the bigger picture of how jobs play. You're being rewarded with an extra attack on top of the Kenki you're already generating for doing what you should have been doing all along during jump phases. If this is a complaint now, it just shows how few samurais were playing their job correctly when it comes to handling jump phases in boss fights. Meditate has been there as a skill since the job was introduced.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

You can't move? You mean like how monks also can't move or turn your character while using Anatman to maintain greased lightning during that same type of phase? Yet samurai gets an extra attack and job resource while monks get to just not drop greased lightning....

I get that a lot of samurais are disappointed with this skill, but the complaints are seriously overblown when you look at the myriad other issues in this game and the bigger picture of how jobs play. You're being rewarded with an extra attack on top of the Kenki you're already generating for doing what you should have been doing all along during jump phases. If this is a complaint now, it just shows how few samurais were playing their job correctly when it comes to handling jump phases in boss fights. Meditate has been there as a skill since the job was introduced.

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If meditation stopped my my buffs from dropping, I would actually use it way more. 50 Kenki for 15 seconds is garbage compared to not getting buffs dropped, since keeping the buffs up for SAM is probably the most important thing. I would gladly exchange it with monks if that was the case.

And I love your logic, basically it's saying because monks have cancer, therefore SAM's HIV does not need to be treated.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

If meditation stopped my my buffs from dropping, I would actually use it way more. 50 Kenki for 15 seconds is garbage compared to not getting buffs dropped, since keeping the buffs up for SAM is probably the most important thing. I would gladly exchange it with monks if that was the case.

And I love your logic, basically it's saying because monks have cancer, therefore SAM's HIV does not need to be treated.

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And as soon as monk can get back all its buffs in 4 GCDs without having to activate a skill on a two minute cooldown, I would agree with you there.

And I'm not using the logic you're accusing me of. I'm saying that samurai, and this skill, doesn't have the problem people are claiming it has. I'm saying Shoha isn't HIV as you're claiming, and is just a nice additional damage for doing what you already should have been doing while playing your job. Every job now has some only conditionally useful skill, this is yours. I would just say it's nice that yours does more for your rotation than many other jobs.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

And as soon as monk can get back all its buffs in 4 GCDs without having to activate a skill on a two minute cooldown, I would agree with you there.

And I'm not using the logic you're accusing me of. I'm saying that samurai, and this skill, doesn't have the problem people are claiming it has. I'm saying Shoha isn't HIV as you're claiming, and is just a nice additional damage for doing what you already should have been doing while playing your job. Every job now has some only conditionally useful skill, this is yours. I would just say it's nice that yours does more for your rotation than many other jobs.

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It really doesn't do anything for our rotation, again, by your logic, monk's cancer needs to be treated before SAM's HIV. Secondly, almost all skills(other than defensive, healing, or mobility) are just a nice additional damage for what they are already doing, so by that logic no skill need to be fixed.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

It really doesn't do anything for our rotation, again, by your logic, monk's cancer needs to be treated before SAM's HIV. Secondly, almost all skills(other than defensive, healing, or mobility) are just a nice additional damage for what they are already doing, so by that logic no skill need to be fixed.

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Calling Shoha HIV is acting like it's actively detrimental to the job when it's existence absolutely isn't. Not in the way Monks piles upon piles of overly situational nonsense is. Shoha is minorly lackluster, it's more like a papercut that in no way inconveniences the rest of the job. It's effective at what it does, which is giving you extra potency when you've had a considerable down phase, and if it had traded spots with Senei or Tsubame Gaeshi it probably wouldn't be seeing half of the complaints that it's getting.