This is something that I am kind of surprised hasn't been implemented so far, but would it be possible to have fire IV and blizzard IV be tied into the same action (similar to how Verflare/verholy were tied to verthunder/veraero respectively), depending on which aspect you were currently attuned to?
Eg if I had any astral fire, button would show Fire IV, but if I had umbral ice, then button would show Blizzard IV.
My action bar is already a mess and I'm ending up having to make up new keybinds I generally don't use, and even though this would only free up 1 more button, this would help (and tbh, make sense as well).
Thoughts?
BLM QoL suggestion
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07-09-2019, 02:32 PMSaerirethBLM QoL suggestion
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07-09-2019, 03:16 PMNumenor1379
Combining Enochian, F4 and B4 would work. But honestly you shouldn't have an issue with BLMs hotbar setup.
I've got 2x F3s and 2x Enochians on my crossbars and still only use 36 spots.
In case you didn't know, but B2 and Lucid Dreaming are 100% useless and can be deleted to free up two spots. -
07-09-2019, 03:20 PMTaranok
While you're at it, you can also consider merging F4/B4 with Enochian as well, so Enochian removes itself from the bar when it's up. And I'd consider removing Sharpcast as an oGCD and changing it into a trait that increases the proc rate of fire 1 to 100% once every 30 seconds or just flat out 100%, but require level 60 instead of 52, and then a second trait that increases the proc chance of Thunder to, say, 12-15% per tic and 4-5% per tic for aoe. Sharpcast feels really redundant on a 30s cooldown, existing to insist upon itself, and its nature of working on 3 separate abilities is confusing to less experienced BLMs, muddying the class a tiny amount. Giving the guarantee to Fire 1 frees up mobility during the AF phase, makes it vastly more consistent, and obviously removes needing to press an oGCD every cycle on a class that has relative difficulty pressing oGCDs.
Blizzard 2 can also be upgraded to be, oh, 70-80 potency and instead of a point blank aoe, a targeted aoe like freeze, and then automatically upgrade into freeze as well, and that's a useless ability fixed and another button removed.
I'm not sure what else I'd tweak at this point. Those are the major offenders. I'd consider collapsing the ST-exclusive and AoE-exclusive abilities like flare/despair and foul/xenoglossy back into one, but that may not be necessary with bar space secured again, and the only other QoL improvements I'd consider would involve dropping things like Aspect Mastery, Blizzard 4/Fire 4/Enochian down to level 30 so that players can use the "true" BLM rotation earlier. And, you know, aspect mastery is just really nice and why is it level 72 devs? -
07-09-2019, 04:39 PMAcidblood
To Add:
- Merge Lay Lines and Between the Lines into the same button.
- Do something with Fire II (e.g. halve the MP cost, reduce the cast time to 2s, and add a damage buff around level 50); pre-level 68 (Enhanced Umbral Heart) AoE feels completely awful.
- Allow Thundercloud Procs to accumulate in a stack, or double the duration (to 30s or more)... 30s Sharpcast is nice, but Thundercloud Procs still feel too random; i.e. most go to waste, but you still never seem to have one when you need it.
- Make Aetherial Manipulation a short forward dash when no target is selected / specified (with a target it stays the same as it is now); i.e. make it useful outside of group content and / or without a macro. -
07-09-2019, 05:00 PMHasrat
I think a thing to keep in mind with button-combining suggestions is that, while they may work right now, future additions/updates may require those things remain separate.
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07-09-2019, 05:05 PMRongwayBetween the Lines, though...It's 100% non-usable except when Ley Lines is up. Ley Lines is 100% non-usable while Ley-Lines is up. The two should definitely be the same button.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasrat
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07-09-2019, 05:08 PMSeraphorAgreed with AoE, Fire II feels really clunky, just a somewhat pointless filler to use your first two umbral hearts on before you can Flare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acidblood
As for Thundercloud procs, it's always a DPS gain to just use it as soon as it pops up, even if you're in AF. Well, presuming using it won't cause you to drop Enochian. -
07-09-2019, 06:14 PMHasratI don't disagree, but, all it would take is basically adding any other ability that can only be used during Ley Lines to sorta break that. I agree, combining the two would still probably be the most logical solution regardless of future additions, the utility of placing an anchor point you can move to. And it wouldn't surprise me if devs really haven't thought far enough ahead on skills to plan around adding more things that get used only during Lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
Like I said, a lot of the ideas sound like they would work great with what we have now. But that doesn't mean it won't change. Idk. Just a consideration. -
07-09-2019, 06:28 PMSeraphorEven if they added another skill that, like BtL, could only be used during Ley Lines, then chances are the simple movement utility of BtL would make it the favourable bind to LL over whatever this new skill ends up being.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasrat
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07-09-2019, 08:50 PMFrejyaAthenes
I'd like to have Blizzard I combined with Blizzard III, myself. Makes getting level synced in old dungeons less of a hassle.
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07-09-2019, 11:13 PMArchwizard
It is worth noting that since they're mutually exclusive actions, you could feasibly macro F4 and B4 to one action, as well as Ley Lines and Between the Lines.
But I agree, they should just innately be one button especially given how wonky macros are, and mixing the first two with Enochian would be a big QoL change.
I would also like to add to this list: Having B2 upgrade into Freeze automatically, and having F2 upgrade into Flare. The former pairing at least would be great for level-synching.
And if it wouldn't affect performance too much, maybe removing Scathe and just making B1 instant...? -
07-09-2019, 11:17 PMWarlyxLucid can be used out of combat , and when rezzed to speed up mp regen i guess? :SQuote:
Originally Posted by Numenor1379
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07-09-2019, 11:19 PMZyneste
Skills that can be consolidated in 5.0 [Proc/Summon Skills Consolidation]
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BLM-- Scathe becomes Xenoglossy under the effect of Polygot.
- Leylines becomes Between the Lines after its used like Geirskogul and Nastrond.
- Blizzard IV becomes Fire IV while under the effect of Astral Fire (or some varient of the two.)
Just some suggestions. Not everyone agrees with the scathe thing, but I think they server functionally the same purpose, with Xenoglossy doing it 1000x better. I can't think of a situation where using scathe would be better than using Xenoglossy? Maybe to save for an add phase for foul? iunno. - Scathe becomes Xenoglossy under the effect of Polygot.
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07-09-2019, 11:26 PMJowyAtreidesTransposing or casting into umbral ice does the job infinitely better in both these situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlyx
The only (possible) benefit I can think of, is an extra cast of Fire 4, Despair or Flare. I suspect the latter 2 would result in a dps loss though in waiting for the mana regen tick to occur. -
07-09-2019, 11:45 PMPyurBlue
I like things as they are. If there are changes they need to be strictly optional. While some suggestions are fine for the majority of situations, they sometimes fail to take into account niche occurrences. Losing Scathe for Xenoglossy would be terrible when dealing with very weak or very low HP enemies for instance. Freeze now being a targeted spells means it can no longer be precast for free damage. B2 is now the only way do this, although admittedly the damage is abysmal.
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07-10-2019, 12:17 AMStouterTaru
- Make Enochian a trait (counter starts with AF/UI)
- Combine F4 & B4
- Combine Ley Lines & Between the Lines
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07-10-2019, 12:56 AMAcidbloodMP doesn't regen in AF, even with Lucid... the only use I can think of is if you are in combat, on 0 MP, and without stacks; having Lucid in this case would reduce the wait before being able to cast B1/3.Quote:
Originally Posted by JowyAtreides
NB: Lucid used to be quite useful as an enmity drop, but since that's no longer a thing... -
07-10-2019, 12:52 PMAcidbloodOff Topic:Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
Based on what math?
Please correct me if I have gotten something wrong, however; from the math I've run:
Thundercloud (TC) = 70 + (40 * 8) = 390 Potency / 2.5s = 156 PPS
Fire I (F1) = 180 * 1.8 (in AF3) = 324 Potency / 2.5s = 129.6 PPS
Fire IV (F4) = 300 * 1.8 (in AF3) = 540 Potency / 2.8s = 192.8 PPS
Despair = 380 * 1.8 (in AF) = 684 Potency / 3.0s = 228 PPS
You have MP (with UHx3) for 7 Fire spells in AF; so ideally 7xF4 (average 192.8 PPS) ...
However, timing dictates that one of those needs to be a F1 (to refresh AF); thus we have the standard 3xF4 + F1 + 3xF4 (average 183.7 PPS) ...
There is extra room in AF now though, which allows for a TC proc (ideally somewhere in the middle for 100% Thunder up time) plus a Despair at the end, so 3xF4 + F1 + TC + 3xF4 + Despair (average 185.6 PPS) ...
Now you could fit in some more TC procs (either side of Despair), however; with Thundercloud being lower PPS than the average for the AF phase is this really worth it?
One thing is for sure though, sacrificing F4's to fit in extra TC procs is a definite DPS loss.
On Topic:
Thus my suggestion that Thundercloud procs be able to be stored, either for longer or in a stack, until the point that they are actually beneficial. -
07-10-2019, 01:27 PMNumenor1379Thundercloud procs are actually two things in one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acidblood
-- The entire potency of the full DoT on initial hit.
-- Applies the regular DoT.
So it is really:
[70 + 390 + (40 * 8)]/ 2.5s = 312 PPS -
07-10-2019, 02:12 PMAcidbloodThat is only true if you aren't overriding an existing Thunder DoT; i.e. if Thunder is already up then you cannot include the full DoT potency (if any at all) in the base potency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Numenor1379
The question is around the use of additional Thundercloud procs; i.e. beyond those necessary to maintain 100% Thunder uptime (or near enough to). As such, it is of no benefit to consider the DoT portion of Thunder / Thundercloud (as it either applies universally, or does not apply at all).
Edit: For context the full 'standard' rotation, which gives 100% Thunder uptime, (and taken in the middle of a fight) would be:
B3 > Xenoglossy > Sharpcast (weave) > T3 (or TC) > B4 > F3 > F4 > F4 > F4 > F1 > TC > F4 > F4 > F4 > Despair > B3 ... -
07-10-2019, 02:21 PMNumenor1379Even then you still have the 460pot initial hit, making it 184 PPS (basically an instant F4). IIRC, so long as you do not use the T4P to refresh the DoT when it has more than 12s(?) remaining it is a DPS gain to use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acidblood
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07-10-2019, 02:52 PMAcidbloodHow do you get 460?Quote:
Originally Posted by Numenor1379
24s / 3 = 8 ticks * 40 = 320 + 70 = 390pot initial hit.
The original assertion is that:
This is not true (as far as I can tell). Contextually Thundercloud is worth using, as you said, to refresh Thunder past a certain point, but if you already have 100% Thunder uptime (as per the rotation) then using additional TC procs is not worth it (unless I’m missing something) and thus they are wasted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
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07-10-2019, 03:08 PMNumenor1379The 460 is the 390 of the full DoT potency added to the initial attack as that's how the Thundercould Proc works. You're thinking it's just a simple reapplication of the normal DoT, it is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acidblood
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07-10-2019, 03:38 PMRongwayYou're double counting the initial potency. Only the DoT portion is actually added to the hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Numenor1379
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07-10-2019, 05:31 PMSeraphor
If you sit on a thundercloud proc, you're wasting any potential subsequent procs, and each one is a free 390 potency hit.
The only time you shouldn't be using it is if you're about to enter UI anyway, if you're about to be forced to move and thus lose dps output if you don't have an instant cast spell available, or if using it would cause you to drop enochian. -
07-10-2019, 06:19 PMCasino
Look like an old debate... It is said T3 worth it if 15 secondes or less of dot are remaining.
For my opinion the proc can never happen twice and you lose a tool for dps while moving. So i use it at its max potecy most of the time.
Using it too many time under astral fire can trap you and make forget enochian too. -
07-10-2019, 08:20 PMAcidbloodTrue, but it's not worth taking a DPS loss just to use a proc. Which is precisely why the current system is flawed; i.e. TC procs are only useful IF they happen at the right time (or near enough beforehand), which puts their effective rate well below 10%... not that BLM is hurting for DPS, but it's never nice seeing several TC procs go to waste and then not being able to get one when it would be useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
Which is significantly lower than the 540 potency of a Fire IV in AF3, and since you are MP and time limited in AF, it is not worth the sacrifice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
As far as movement goes you are better off using Xenoglossy (unless you are about to use it for another purpose), or a Firestarter proc (432 potency in AF + AF refresh); it is better than Scathe though (anything is better than Scathe).Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
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07-10-2019, 09:09 PMSeraphorAs I said, you shouldn't use it if it would cause you to drop Enochian , so the 'time limit' of Enochian isn't an issue, or rather it's one of the few exceptions that you shouldn't use it and can work around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acidblood
It costs no MP, so the MP limit for your Fire spells is a non-issue.
It's higher than any Ice spells, so for 0 MP it's nothing but a bonus. -
07-11-2019, 01:09 AMAcidbloodIt's not (necessarily) about dropping Enochian, it's about only being able to fit so many spells into an AF window before you have to refresh it with Fire 1, and every Fire 1 costs you a Fire IV (in terms of MP). Thus, if you are spamming Thundercloud (i.e. beyond 1 per AF rotation) you are essentially swapping a Fire IV for a Fire 1 + Thundercloud, and that is a bad trade; 540 / 2.8s = 192 PPS vs. (324 + 390) / (2.5 + 2.5) = 142 PPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
Additionally, by my calculations a standard rotation has an average active (i.e. excluding DoT) PPS of 162 with 1 Thunder III cast in UI and 1 well timed Thundercloud proc in AF, which results in 100% Thunder DoT uptime... and since Thundercloud only has an active PPS of 156 it is in fact a DPS loss to spam it (regardless of phase). Also interesting; if you ignore Thunder entirely it results in a rotation with a PPS of 172*; so a BLM ignoring Thunder would actually do more DPS than a BLM spamming only Thundercloud (156 + 13.3 = 169.3 PPS).
* Note: I do NOT advocate ignoring Thunder. For comparison a standard rotation including the Thunder DoT has a PPS of 175 with 1 well timed Thundercloud proc, and a PPS of 184 if you can manage 2 well timed Thundercloud procs. -
07-14-2019, 04:23 PMTaranokAs far as I am aware, Fire II isn't even part of the aoe rotation post 68 regardless of how many umbral hearts you actually have, because its damage just flat out doesn't justify it. And then seriously find some way for Fire 2 to be relevant to AoE. I'd go so far as giving it the Freeze treatment of letting it be an AF/UI swap spell and nudging its potency up so that 3 targets actually makes it do more damage than fire 4 does, and maybe then I'd consider using it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
And a QoL change I'd really like to see is changing sharpcast to be a trait instead of a button. By the time you have sharpcast as a 30s cooldown, I personally always use it for fire 3 procs (less likely to happen, adds substantially more versatility to your DPS rotation), and having to push the oGCD just gets annoying on a class that really doesn't like pushing oGCDs for something with fundamentally 100% up time. I'd rather just see the first sharpcast at 54 give fire 1 a guaranteed chance to proc fire 3 either with or without an internal cooldown, and then make the level 74 version of sharpcast buff the proc rate of Thunder spells by an amount. 3-5% for thunder 3, 1-2% for thunder 4. Also take aspect mastery and throw it down to level 30 or 40, because that's a massive QoL improvement on BLM and it should not be relegated to a high-end skill. -
07-14-2019, 04:44 PMShurrikhanI could never understand this argument. Not having it won't kill us, so we shouldn't bother having a significant increase to convenience that would cost us literally nothing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Numenor1379
Not to say that's what's being argued, precisely, above, but I see this all the time over BLM threads and I just can't make sense of it. -
07-17-2019, 11:40 PMKomaru_Tatoro
so before getting to lv80, still lvling from 70 and been blm main since arr. quite happy that two of my prev qol suggestion in early sb was implemented whether the dev already have that in mind or not. so here my shb take. probably more after savage is out? =P
after reading that freeze get a 2nd life, I thought why not do something about scathe too for qol change.
i initially thought, maybe scathe should be turn to ogcd. discussed this with someone and he said its gonna be a buff to the class more than a qol change. that was before i got to 80 and play it long enough. now that im 80 and beat up to current content, 5.01 i think he's right.
though after reading some of the comments above talking about turning scathe to xeno, i dont think thats a good way for qol. i still think scathe should stay its gcd form and do less dmg in return being a instant. my suggestion is to remove the scathe mp requirement. because using scathe is already a pps lost compare to any other spell for thst gcd, I thought having another mp punishment where you have less the needed mp to cast another spell, whether its despair or f4.
its more of an option (crutch) for newcomer or less optimize blm to use while movement, rather than not casting anything during movement at all. this change would atleast give those blm an option and obviously they should shed the scathe crutches and start planning out instant spell usage for movement.
i would agree with f4 and b4 having the same button/hotkey since you cant cast opposite element 4 spells when not in their respective ui/af anyway.
i agree with btl and ll being the same hotkey/button too and i think those was somewhat suggested in sb too. why the dev didnt decide to do that qol change? who knows. maybe perhaps theres something about the rumor leak of blm new spell or trait back before shb is out could be true in next expansion( 6.0)? (eg, you can move the ll to you) =)