Materia / secondary stats for ShB tanks?

Is there any consensus or argument for anything other than crit right now?

Or is the order of priority for secondary stats still Crit, DHit? I seem to have read somewhere that the idea of SkS GNB turned out to be bad. Any new perspectives?

Since leveling up kind of does a "soft reset" on secondary scaling, the value of crit currently is diminished because you can't stack enough of it currently to beat out other secondaries.

From what I understand, in general it's Sks until you reach a certain threshold/comfort > Dhit > Det > Crit > More SkS > Ten.
For WAR it's Det > Comfy SkS > Crit > Ten. This is because Dhit is greatly devalued on them due to getting automatic direct hits where the majority of their damage come froms, Dhit only increases direct hit chance and not damage.

The info was taken from The Balance discord.

What would one define as "comfy SkS?" For Warriors, it's been 5 FC in an IR window... for DRK, it's the same for Bloodspiller... for Paladin, it's useless. What SkS would GNB aim for -- furthermore, to what means would SkS serve? Is there a threshold for Gnashing Fang and Sonic Break that we should be meeting? Given the vagueness of "comfy," I'm not certain how to apply this.

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Originally Posted by Novak_04

What would one define as "comfy SkS?" For Warriors, it's been 5 FC in an IR window... for DRK, it's the same for Bloodspiller... for Paladin, it's useless. What SkS would GNB aim for -- furthermore, to what means would SkS serve? Is there a threshold for Gnashing Fang and Sonic Break that we should be meeting? Given the vagueness of "comfy," I'm not certain how to apply this.

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For GNB a "comfy" SkS is 2.39-2.40 GCD to get your Gnashing/Continuation opener + DoTs while still able to weave in 3 Cartridge Burst Strikes in, I'm currently at 2.40/2.41 and I'm not having any issues with it with mostly DH in all my gear.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

Since leveling up kind of does a "soft reset" on secondary scaling, the value of crit currently is diminished because you can't stack enough of it currently to beat out other secondaries.

From what I understand, in general it's Sks until you reach a certain threshold/comfort > Dhit > Det > Crit > More SkS > Ten.
For WAR it's Det > Comfy SkS > Crit > Ten. This is because Dhit is greatly devalued on them due to getting automatic direct hits where the majority of their damage come froms, Dhit only increases direct hit chance and not damage.

The info was taken from The Balance discord.

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Am I to understand from this that Det now gives a better bonus to WAR damage than more Crit for our burst window? If so I'd like to know where the math is coming from.

SkS i believe is completely useless for PLD. Do we go dh>det then?

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Originally Posted by Fangorn

SkS i believe is completely useless for PLD. Do we go dh>det then?

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2.38 and you'll be able to use FoF before Riot Blade which is a dps increase. Also remember that PLD's 2nd highest damage is actually Auto Attacks only 2nd to Atonement, as SkS increases AA's and Goring Blade, it can never be called useless.

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Originally Posted by Spartan926

Am I to understand from this that Det now gives a better bonus to WAR damage than more Crit for our burst window? If so I'd like to know where the math is coming from.

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You can't currently stack enough crit for it to overtake det, but that will change as new gear is released. I've been told the magic number is higher than 3k.

Question: how much is the minimum DH noticeable for tanks?

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Originally Posted by Spartan926

Am I to understand from this that Det now gives a better bonus to WAR damage than more Crit for our burst window? If so I'd like to know where the math is coming from.

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Crit is still the king for warrior, it increases damage to higher degree than DET when you crit. It affects critical hits a lot more than DET here is the math
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...tat_intervals/

Every 16 points you gain 0.1% on critical damage, where DET is 25 points per 0.1%

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Originally Posted by Praesul

Since leveling up kind of does a "soft reset" on secondary scaling, the value of crit currently is diminished because you can't stack enough of it currently to beat out other secondaries.

From what I understand, in general it's Sks until you reach a certain threshold/comfort > Dhit > Det > Crit > More SkS > Ten.
For WAR it's Det > Comfy SkS > Crit > Ten. This is because Dhit is greatly devalued on them due to getting automatic direct hits where the majority of their damage come froms, Dhit only increases direct hit chance and not damage.

The info was taken from The Balance discord.

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I would never consider taking any SKS on any tank job except maybe GNB.
PLD has a spell combo, which is not affected, a big part of DRK damage comes from other sources than weapon skills, and on War you sit under 2.4 sec GCD anyway and there is no point to meld it, i have no problem to pull out 5 FC in IR and i have no SKS melds.

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Originally Posted by Zhamkyong

Question: how much is the minimum DH noticeable for tanks?

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Your base value for DH is 380 without melds, which is equal to 0% DH.

DH melds and party buffs like Battle Voice increase your DH rate.

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Originally Posted by Awful

For GNB a "comfy" SkS is 2.39-2.40 GCD to get your Gnashing/Continuation opener + DoTs while still able to weave in 3 Cartridge Burst Strikes in, I'm currently at 2.40/2.41 and I'm not having any issues with it with mostly DH in all my gear.

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Afaik the lowest SkS you should've is 2.43s GCD. I played WAR during Creator back in 3.x with the old 20s Berserk. It was possible to do with 2.43s, but almost no "breathing room". 2.4s looks perfect for a 60s rotation (25 GCDs).

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Originally Posted by Novak_04

What would one define as "comfy SkS?" For Warriors, it's been 5 FC in an IR window... for DRK, it's the same for Bloodspiller... for Paladin, it's useless. What SkS would GNB aim for -- furthermore, to what means would SkS serve? Is there a threshold for Gnashing Fang and Sonic Break that we should be meeting? Given the vagueness of "comfy," I'm not certain how to apply this.

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A comfy SkS for WAR is 2.38s GCD and faster, but not below 2.35s. WAR and DRK don't really "want" to have the same SkS. While their Delirium and IR is on same GCD, their Gauge generation differs. You can also hold your combo and start Delirium without losing it, since 5.0 has its combo follow-up duration increased to 15s.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

You can't currently stack enough crit for it to overtake det, but that will change as new gear is released. I've been told the magic number is higher than 3k.

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Im sitting on 2900ish atm. With new normal raid gear i believe 3k is easily achievable.

What would be the suggested SkS for DRK? Currently sitting at 2.4s, and wasn't sure how fast I should be.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

What would be the suggested SkS for DRK? Currently sitting at 2.4s, and wasn't sure how fast I should be.

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2.38s-2.4s GCD = SkS value 1523-1320.

I suggest 2.4s GCD (1320+ SkS) because 80% of your abilities have a 60s recast, and Living Shadow 120s. Exceptions are Plunge and Delirium - Plunge gets charges, so there is no issue.

For Delirium:

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

[...]You can also hold your combo and start Delirium without losing it, since 5.0 has its combo follow-up duration increased to 15s.

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edit: faster SkS builds are just for preference and memes

So basically there is no need to meld any SKS, since 2.4 will give you SKS from equipment alone.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

So basically there is no need to meld any SKS, since 2.4 will give you SKS from equipment alone.

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That is not correct. The BiS from balance discord/GNB guide does indeed make use of 3 SkS melds.
If you're talking about the AF iLvl 430 gear... that is not the highest iLvl and should be replaced.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

That is not correct. The BiS from balance discord/GNB guide does indeed make use of 3 SkS melds.
If you're talking about the AF iLvl 430 gear... that is not the highest iLvl and should be replaced.

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That BiS has 2 Immaculate rings in it. OwO?

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Originally Posted by Fangorn

That BiS has 2 Immaculate rings in it. OwO?

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Haha, good catch.

You still need the same amount of SkS melds, as the other ring doesn't provide any.

edit: got the BiS from this guide. I checked, and all BiS listed have 2 Immaculate rings lol.

My friend and I have been testing this out.. I see tanks with the old pre 5.0 materia set up, with a lot of DH, DET, and CRIT. DET is always great for all jobs, but in our little test, we wanted to see if they improved TEN (cause it felt useless pre-5.0). He noticed quite a difference.. With the dps materia set up on tank (I am PLD, so I cannot say for DRK. GNB, or WAR- though it seems TEN does tie in with dmg now, combined with DET of course- which everyone should have), it gets annoying healing only when the tank decides to run and pull everything. I don't mind using all of my abilities- though at times this messes with little strategies I like to do during boss fights, but it gets to the point where I have to quickly go through all of my CD on healer, then stand there spamming that heal, hoping my CD hurry up lol.. This isn't fun at all, and never an issue pre-5.0, unless the tank was bad. I don't have much of this problem on WHM, but for SCH its quite annoying.. Not sure about AST since I will probably leave that at 70, because it bores me now.. So I went with more TEN, and my friend noticed I wasn't taking as much dmg as I was before, though the real nice thing to him was the fact that when he healed me, I got more of my health back, so it didn't feel like such a struggle and chore for him- and he didn't need to use ALL of his CD's just to keep me alive, and then not have them on the next big pull, or boss. I thought fights would take a bit longer, because I didn't have the dps materia set up on tank.. Nope this wasn't the case at all, even then tested it with the trust party (though you can't really do massive pulls, since they are slow lol). As a healer, I didn't care much for PIE at all, or SpS, but I notice a positive difference. In the past PIE only gave you more MP, but now it allows more MP to return to you in combat- It was nice.. Also if people aren't eating food, they are naughty.

DH is not on any tank gear so forget that. Im a true tank, sks to get 5 castings off then all tenecity. I got 3208 right now. You all can be fake dps, i'll stay a tank.

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Originally Posted by PALADIN01

My friend and I have been testing this out.. I see tanks with the old pre 5.0 materia set up, with a lot of DH, DET, and CRIT. DET is always great for all jobs, but in our little test, we wanted to see if they improved TEN (cause it felt useless pre-5.0). He noticed quite a difference.. With the dps materia set up on tank (I am PLD, so I cannot say for DRK. GNB, or WAR- though it seems TEN does tie in with dmg now, combined with DET of course- which everyone should have), it gets annoying healing only when the tank decides to run and pull everything. I don't mind using all of my abilities- though at times this messes with little strategies I like to do during boss fights, but it gets to the point where I have to quickly go through all of my CD on healer, then stand there spamming that heal, hoping my CD hurry up lol.. This isn't fun at all, and never an issue pre-5.0, unless the tank was bad. I don't have much of this problem on WHM, but for SCH its quite annoying.. Not sure about AST since I will probably leave that at 70, because it bores me now.. So I went with more TEN, and my friend noticed I wasn't taking as much dmg as I was before, though the real nice thing to him was the fact that when he healed me, I got more of my health back, so it didn't feel like such a struggle and chore for him- and he didn't need to use ALL of his CD's just to keep me alive, and then not have them on the next big pull, or boss. I thought fights would take a bit longer, because I didn't have the dps materia set up on tank.. Nope this wasn't the case at all, even then tested it with the trust party (though you can't really do massive pulls, since they are slow lol). As a healer, I didn't care much for PIE at all, or SpS, but I notice a positive difference. In the past PIE only gave you more MP, but now it allows more MP to return to you in combat- It was nice.. Also if people aren't eating food, they are naughty.

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good thing to know, I wanted try full TEN and DET for my pally alt

Lots of anecdotes and not much actual testing being flung around this thread as facts. If you want to lean more about the current set of stats check out theory jerks website. They have the best testing with the largest datasets and worked out the exact breakpoints for each stat and are working through the job specific calculations as we speak. Only numbers, no anecdotes.

http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Lots of anecdotes and not much actual testing being flung around this thread as facts. If you want to lean more about the current set of stats check out theory jerks website. They have the best testing with the largest datasets and worked out the exact breakpoints for each stat and are working through the job specific calculations as we speak. Only numbers, no anecdotes.

http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com

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This is really interesting. Thanks! So, if I am reading this information correctly, DH does not seem anywhere near as good for tanks as CRIT. I just hit 80 and got my 430 GNB gear. I am currently sitting at 380 DH. If I were to put +40 DH in every slot, I would have 1100 DH. 1100 DH provides a 12% chance to DH, and does 1.03 dmg. For CRIT, I am sitting at 2272 crit without materia. Even without any materia, that gives me a 16.4% chance to crit, which does 51.4% bonus damage, with an expected dmg of 1.08.

For DET vs. TEN, DET obviously provides more damage, but not ludicrously so. My DET at 1603 provides a 1.049 damage multiplier. My TEN unmelded is at 1478, which provides a 1.033 damage multiplier and 0.967 damage mitigation %. I am assuming the damage mitigation percentage stat means I would be taking 96.7% of the damage (only 3.3 percent damage reduction)?

Even with all this information I am still at a loss as how to exactly prioritize though, as its hard for me to tell which options will give the most benefit. In SB as PLD, I just stacked DH as much as possible, as that seemed to be the prevailing suggestion. Now though, ignoring skill speed, and taking into account what as far as I can tell from the link you posted is pretty lackluster DH, especially since we start so low - maybe prioritize CRIT and then DET? It seems going TEN instead of DET may also be okay if you want a few extra percentage points of damage reduction (like seriously it seems like maybe 2-3% with what I can currently meld), but DET if you are just going for damage.

What do you guys think?

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Originally Posted by Resolute

What do you guys think?

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That i can already see in the future SE get rid of the materia system, and also give all different stuff of the same level the same stats. Because the so-called "choice" we have is an illusion if in the end everyone have to "choose" the same most optimized thing dictated by some theorycrafter.

And if you think i am joking, please think again of what hapened to role actions choices, or the possibility to choose main stats materias instead of secondary stats ones.

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Originally Posted by Thaeros

DH is not on any tank gear so forget that. Im a true tank, sks to get 5 castings off then all tenecity. I got 3208 right now. You all can be fake dps, i'll stay a tank.

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The more I play my PLD the more I agree with this.

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Originally Posted by Resolute

This is really interesting. Thanks! So, if I am reading this information correctly, DH does not seem anywhere near as good for tanks as CRIT. I just hit 80 and got my 430 GNB gear. I am currently sitting at 380 DH. If I were to put +40 DH in every slot, I would have 1100 DH. 1100 DH provides a 12% chance to DH, and does 1.03 dmg. For CRIT, I am sitting at 2272 crit without materia. Even without any materia, that gives me a 16.4% chance to crit, which does 51.4% bonus damage, with an expected dmg of 1.08.

For DET vs. TEN, DET obviously provides more damage, but not ludicrously so. My DET at 1603 provides a 1.049 damage multiplier. My TEN unmelded is at 1478, which provides a 1.033 damage multiplier and 0.967 damage mitigation %. I am assuming the damage mitigation percentage stat means I would be taking 96.7% of the damage (only 3.3 percent damage reduction)?

Even with all this information I am still at a loss as how to exactly prioritize though, as its hard for me to tell which options will give the most benefit. In SB as PLD, I just stacked DH as much as possible, as that seemed to be the prevailing suggestion. Now though, ignoring skill speed, and taking into account what as far as I can tell from the link you posted is pretty lackluster DH, especially since we start so low - maybe prioritize CRIT and then DET? It seems going TEN instead of DET may also be okay if you want a few extra percentage points of damage reduction (like seriously it seems like maybe 2-3% with what I can currently meld), but DET if you are just going for damage.

What do you guys think?

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Not quite. Youre comparing your full gearset of crit vs only kelds of DH so of course 2k crit looks better than 1k DH. You need to compare the 3%damage fron melding DH vs crit using 2272 as your baseling. If your current crit is 8% increase, then 1.08 is your base. If you then meld a 1100 crit ans it only moves you to, say, 1.1 its only an increase if 1.85% (1.1/1.8=1.0185). Compare tgat to the 3% from melding DH 3%.

Dh is actually very strong right now. But you have to compare your total damage with your gear as your baseline then add the melds ti see what kinda damage return you get. So you have a crit heavy build, see what haopens to that build adding more crit, then again with more det, then again with more DH. For example say your gear adds 8% from crit, 5% from det then you take 1.05*1.08 to get your total damage. Then you add the extra from nelds. Say 1 03 from dh and get your total. Then do the same but uncrease crit. If you want to be real fancy math it up with a different gearset, say one focused on det and repeat.

This way you find out what the best set of stats is for the largest increase in damage is.

The caveats being raid buffs (crit raid bfffs make crit better) and job specific tweaks. Wars get less benefit from dh. Pld magic rotation is annafected by skill speed, etc.

But thats the gist of how you figure out the stats. The stat you should meld depends on how muchnof other stats you already have. But DH should be very strong for pld/drk for now and terribad on war.

So, melding a bit of Sks to get to 2.4 gcd, then meld TEN where it's possible, would be a "safe" and "confortable" meld? My idea is to help Healers not to struggle so much, and having a little bit of mitigation on the side. So is it a good meld?

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Originally Posted by Praesul

Since leveling up kind of does a "soft reset" on secondary scaling, the value of crit currently is diminished because you can't stack enough of it currently to beat out other secondaries.

From what I understand, in general it's Sks until you reach a certain threshold/comfort > Dhit > Det > Crit > More SkS > Ten.
For WAR it's Det > Comfy SkS > Crit > Ten. This is because Dhit is greatly devalued on them due to getting automatic direct hits where the majority of their damage come froms, Dhit only increases direct hit chance and not damage.

The info was taken from The Balance discord.

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If im not mistaken Crit and Det are valued equally for warrior that is. Sks should be around 1500-1800 for your comfort values. Dhit is basically useless cause of our inner release windows and infuriates. Higher crit values i found more efficient then det. Thats just off my sims and practicing.

Getting all materia DH would give me 0.2% dps boost on my DRK.

Its completely useless for someone who is playing all 4 tanks.

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Originally Posted by Thaeros

DH is not on any tank gear so forget that. Im a true tank, sks to get 5 castings off then all tenecity. I got 3208 right now. You all can be fake dps, i'll stay a tank.

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I like this guy.

But for me instead of skillspeed to 5 hits, it's "TENACITY DOESN'T FIT? ADD MORE SKILLSPEED FOR MORE FASTNESS!"

Necroed no longer relevant stat posts.

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

Necroed no longer relevant stat posts.

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Dizoh, I have been bamboozled.

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Originally Posted by Thaeros

DH is not on any tank gear so forget that. Im a true tank, sks to get 5 castings off then all tenecity. I got 3208 right now. You all can be fake dps, i'll stay a tank.

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Wait so WAR is all about beefy dps and Viking powah is a lie?

I agree no DH meld tho screw that stat

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Originally Posted by Niyuka

Is there any consensus or argument for anything other than crit right now?

Or is the order of priority for secondary stats still Crit, DHit? I seem to have read somewhere that the idea of SkS GNB turned out to be bad. Any new perspectives?

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Materia priorities vary based on the tank so it is difficult to give you a hard rule.

Skillspeed is a great DPS increase up to a point. Each tank has their own GCD sweet spot. The exception is Paladins who usually don't add any skill speed beyond what they incidentally pick up.

Direct hit tends to give you the best point for point damage increase, but it is a lot weaker on warriors due to guaranteed crits/directs. It only ups your direct hit chance.

Critical Hit is usually weaker than direct hit, but preferable on a warrior because they have skills that can guarantee direct hits and critical hits. Critical hit increases your critical hit chance and critical hit damage. So critical hit benefits you on your guaranteed crit skills as warrior.

Determination is a reliable across the board damage increase because it is a straight damage, but probably less than direct hit or critical hit. Thing is, if you play multiple tanks it is a reliable damage increase on every tank. Great for a cross tank set if you truly play a bunch of different tanks.

Tenacity is determination's brother and very underappreciated. It functions like determination giving a straight buff to your damage. This damage buff is smaller than determination, but in return you also get a small damage reduction. This takes a little pressure off your healers and can save your life. It is like a little bit of a safety net. You'll never see it on a best in slot list because it is the worst thing you can slot for damage aside from slotting a completely irrelevant stat. However, it will occasionally save your life and in turn have a huge impact on that run. Great for progression or party finder raiding, when your team is unreliable.

Also note that when most people talk stats they are talking about end game raiding with a reliable team. For example tenacity's damage reduction is more valuable in a dungeon when you are doing wall to wall pulls. Most people simply to do not optimize for dungeons because you can outgear dungeons. You can't outgear the top savage raid.

You really need to do your research because there is way more to this that can be conveyed in a single post. If you do not want to do your research just slot in a few skill speed materia and a bunch of determination. It won't be optimal, but you can't screw it up.