Forking classes into full jobs

Let me start by saying: I know this won’t happen. I may not even want this to happen, but I am bored at work and wanted to just do this as a thought experiment.

See, for a long time, there have been talk about removing classes from the game. The thing I never see anyone mention is how deeply the root classes are tied to their respective children/final jobs. Removing them entirely ends up completely nullifying some big plot points for some jobs.

So the thought crossed my mind: why not kill two birds with one stone and just keep that story, and then extend upon classes as their own full-blown jobs?

Example: At level, 30 a Marauder is expected to become a warrior. OR… he could continue a new fork on the story that continue his Marauder as, now, a full DPS job, still wielding two handed axes, but now wearing… let’s say the same gear as a DRG.

Similarly, a Lancer could develop his base class now as a job, and at this point, he gets to wear

If it was not obvious, I would still remove base classes, from level 1, a Marauder would be considered a job, it would just happen that you now would need to finish the Marauder basic quest line to start the Warrior quest line, and Warrior would be a job that starts at level 30 (not unlike how new jobs start at higher levels.) If the rumor I heard of tank stances going away is true, this could be used as a further way to fork things: DPS stance attacks go to the Marauder, Tank stances attacks go to the Warrior.

Yea, there would be lots of itemization work to do, mostly weapons as armor is easy to just tweak the requirements, but that is a big part of why this is just a for-fun thought experiment. Not to mention, it is already a pain to balance the available jobs without suddenly having an additional 9 jobs added to the end game overnight (again, hold no dreams of this happening.)

This leaves me to the real thought experiment: how would you radically redesign these classes to make them end-game jobs?

I am thinking:
Marauder – Axe Melee DPS
Gladiator – Sword and Shield melee DPS
Archer – No frill ranged DPS (no support, just raw offense, a ranged samurai or monk so to speak)
Lancer – A Lance Equipped Tank
Pugilist – A hand-to-hand Tank
Rogue – Opposite to archer: a melee equivalent of Bard. Not super-high damage but ridiculous amounts of party support.
Conjurer – A white magic DPS mage
Arcanist ??? Not sure… maybe turn it into an Aeitherflow focused dps and allow remove all that junk from Summoner, make Summoner actually work around it’s summoning magic?
Thaumatruge ???

It's an interesting idea, and would grow the class roster a lot, but I imagine balance would be a witch.

Or the simpler solution is to just slightly change the lore to accommodate. Much easier.

Mechanically "Marauder" would be the same job as Warrior. However, in the quests/lore, it would be more of a right of passage sort of thing. Fledgling Warriors are referred to as Marauders, and once you reach level 30, you have proven yourself to be a full-fledged Warrior.

And I don't think it needs to be mentioned that they are nowhere near willing to create 9 new full jobs. Sure, roughly 1/3rd of each are already "done", but when you consider they didn't even want to do/couldn't do 3 jobs in 3 years, it would take them a decade to fill out 31-80/90/100 worth of skill lists. Also, that would create a HUGE bloat of jobs.

I like your intention, but it's not anywhere near realistic. Thought experiments are nice, but they're only really useful when there's at least a vague chance of them to possibly occur.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

It's an interesting idea, and would grow the class roster a lot, but I imagine balance would be a witch.

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It likely would end up sending Yoshi P to the mad house :eek:

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Or the simpler solution is to just slightly change the lore to accommodate. Much easier.

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SE seems more willing to add a thousand hours of work to the game, with new lore addons and content, than change core lore backbones.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Mechanically "Marauder" would be the same job as Warrior. However, in the quests/lore, it would be more of a right of passage sort of thing. Fledgling Warriors are referred to as Marauders, and once you reach level 30, you have proven yourself to be a full-fledged Warrior.

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That's a possibility but not a necessity. There is no reason for a Warrior to be any more equal to a Marauder than a Scholar is to a Summoner. Why I would go for a Melee DPS instead of a tank approach.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

And I don't think it needs to be mentioned that they are nowhere near willing to create 9 new full jobs.

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Said so myself in my post. ;)

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Also, that would create a HUGE bloat of jobs.

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Variety is the spice of life!

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

I like your intention, but it's not anywhere near realistic. Thought experiments are nice, but they're only really useful when there's at least a vague chance of them to possibly occur.

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I know it's not realistic (within the scope of this game's design direction) but I disagree drastically on thought experiments not being "useful". If they help one be entertained for a few hours of idle work, they already served a purpose and, therefore, became useful! :cool:

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

See, for a long time, there have been talk about removing classes from the game. The thing I never see anyone mention is how deeply the root classes are tied to their respective children/final jobs. Removing them entirely ends up completely nullifying some big plot points for some jobs.

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It'd be the same as trying to retcon the likes of say, Maruader lore into them no longer caring about protecting their allies.

Or say Conjurer whom, if you go and talk to E-Yumi-San and ask him about what a Conjurer is, mentions explicitly that their destructive power is much less than other magical schools, but instead are able to aid their allies.

Like, if removing Classes nullifies plot points (Which, as far as I can recall... Is simply the fact that SB job quests revisit Class Tutors such as Jacke in the NIN quests, Mylla in the PLD quests, Hamon in MNK quests etc... Something that can be easily remedied by... Keeping in the level 1-30 quests... Just do them AS a NIN/PLD/MNK rather than as ROG/GLA/PUG)

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

Rogue – Opposite to archer: a melee equivalent of Bard. Not super-high damage but ridiculous amounts of party support.

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...You mean, like Ninja?

Since that's what Ninja is like. Literally the lowest DPS of the DPS jobs, but ridiculous party support in the form of Trick Attack. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Kalise

It'd be the same as trying to retcon the likes of say, Maruader lore into them no longer caring about protecting their allies.[...]

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Expanding on lore to give a new direction, motivations or, whatever, is a lot different from going back and retconing things. That being said, I have not played all job/classes stories but remember the warrior one making a lot of reference and crossover with the crew from the marauder's guild, with plenty of notes on how they are very different things (and since it's the War's quest, how superior Wars are to Marauders.) I am not sure if other quests are as intertwined, or more linearly progressive.

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...You mean, like Ninja?

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To be fair: never even unlocked the Rogue job. I just kinda want a Thief job that is distinct from Ninja. I guess we could always go also with Rogues not actually being Thievs allowing still for a Thief job to come up eventually.

Well I was a fan of the branching path system personally with Classes (Jobs? I honestly mix the two up half the time...). I think branching path system for MMOs is interesting. The idea I had is that every class has a counter spec. So (as an example) Archer would split off to Bard and Ranger. Ranger would be more Damage focused and operate similar to RDM in the sense youd have a range phase, and then a melee phase, and you manage the two phases to maximize damage. Or maybe Rogue would split into Ninja and Pirate, where Pirate is more of a damage dealer, or maybe even a kind of tank (who knows.).

Itd be fun to be able to diverge on classes, but I know itd make balance a right mess.

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

To be fair: never even unlocked the Rogue job. I just kinda want a Thief job that is distinct from Ninja. I guess we could always go also with Rogues not actually being Thievs allowing still for a Thief job to come up eventually.

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My GF wont play Rogue at all cause it turns into a ninja. She likes the feel Rogues from a personality and lore standpoint, but thought that Ninja went to anime weeb status for her liking and it was a turn off for her. She just wants stabbers and that kinda roguish outlaw do-whatever nature, not the anime honorable ninja aspect with a Ten, Chi, Nin system and magic.

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

Expanding on lore to give a new direction, motivations or, whatever, is a lot different from going back and retconing things.

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Well, it would be retconning when you're turning the story from being literally all about one thing (Say, protecting allies for Marauder or Conjurer) and then suddenly turn it into the complete opposite (Say, making Marauder/Conjurer suddenly no longer give a crap about protecting allies and instead just want to hit things)

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

That being said, I have not played all job/classes stories but remember the warrior one making a lot of reference and crossover with the crew from the marauder's guild, with plenty of notes on how they are very different things (and since it's the War's quest, how superior Wars are to Marauders.) I am not sure if other quests are as intertwined, or more linearly progressive.

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Warrior ones had little to do with the Marauder's guild.

There was only one instance where there was set up a fight between the Marauder tutor as he wanted to see how we were getting on.

With then some reference to Curious Gorge and his brother training some Marauders in being Warriors (Though, we never get involved, unlike with the MNK and MCH quests where this happens too)

Also again, there's no reason why the Class Quests couldn't remain with the classes themselves being removed.

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

To be fair: never even unlocked the Rogue job. I just kinda want a Thief job that is distinct from Ninja. I guess we could always go also with Rogues not actually being Thievs allowing still for a Thief job to come up eventually.

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Though, that is unlikely. Given that NIN is based off of Rogue/Thief in its design. It even has the Mug skill (Which does actually confer an increased drop rate from mobs)

The Rogue class and quests are very much Thief-esk.

One of the reasons why I'd really like to be able to use the Rogue animations on the Ninja job... They're really cool and more Thief-y and less weeby >.>

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Well I was a fan of the branching path system personally with Classes (Jobs? I honestly mix the two up half the time...). I think branching path system for MMOs is interesting. The idea I had is that every class has a counter spec. So (as an example) Archer would split off to Bard and Ranger. Ranger would be more Damage focused and operate similar to RDM in the sense youd have a range phase, and then a melee phase, and you manage the two phases to maximize damage. Or maybe Rogue would split into Ninja and Pirate, where Pirate is more of a damage dealer, or maybe even a kind of tank (who knows.).

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I love that concept and was hoping precisely for that to be the norm going forward when they introduced Scholar.

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My GF wont play Rogue at all cause it turns into a ninja.

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I sympathize, its part of why I never unlocked the job. I may cave eventually in my slow and long term goal of having every job at the level cap.

Man, what I'd do for a proper Thief job... (also: a proper Archer job, bard is cool, but come on, a no frill's archer!)

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Well, it would be retconning when you're turning the story from being literally all about one thing (Say, protecting allies for Marauder or Conjurer) and then suddenly turn it into the complete opposite (Say, making Marauder/Conjurer suddenly no longer give a crap about protecting allies and instead just want to hit things)

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Don't think that's entirely true, nor that being a DPS suddenly makes one selfish. I don't remember now if it was a quest on this game or another, but recall a quest once about someone constantly trying to defend allies only to realize using offensive abilities to defeat instead of just trying to aid allies could result in a very effective means to protecting your allies. Maybe it was the conjurer quest line? Cant remember for the life of me where I played that...

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

I don't remember now if it was a quest on this game or another, but recall a quest once about someone constantly trying to defend allies only to realize using offensive abilities to defeat instead of just trying to aid allies could result in a very effective means to protecting your allies. Maybe it was the conjurer quest line? Cant remember for the life of me where I played that...

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That doesn't sound like anything out of the Lv. 1 - 30 class quests here for either tank or conjurer.

personally i hate bard and ninja however i love archer and theif those 2 alone shoulda been their own thing not combined with the lesser ones

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Well, it would be retconning when you're turning the story from being literally all about one thing (Say, protecting allies for Marauder or Conjurer) and then suddenly turn it into the complete opposite (Say, making Marauder/Conjurer suddenly no longer give a crap about protecting allies and instead just want to hit things)



Warrior ones had little to do with the Marauder's guild.

There was only one instance where there was set up a fight between the Marauder tutor as he wanted to see how we were getting on.

With then some reference to Curious Gorge and his brother training some Marauders in being Warriors (Though, we never get involved, unlike with the MNK and MCH quests where this happens too)

Also again, there's no reason why the Class Quests couldn't remain with the classes themselves being removed.



Though, that is unlikely. Given that NIN is based off of Rogue/Thief in its design. It even has the Mug skill (Which does actually confer an increased drop rate from mobs)

The Rogue class and quests are very much Thief-esk.

One of the reasons why I'd really like to be able to use the Rogue animations on the Ninja job... They're really cool and more Thief-y and less weeby >.>

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it might make more sense if the forks had different names, for the classes whose stories are more directly followed by the jobs that came after it.

interesting thing is arcanist already does this, with scholar and summoner.

i guess they didnt want to commit to two branches per class/job.

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Originally Posted by KikoriL

That doesn't sound like anything out of the Lv. 1 - 30 class quests here for either tank or conjurer.

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I looked up the Conjurer quest line and realize why I mixed I up with Sylphie refusal to draw power from nature until the end of the quest. Not the same, though, but enough to get me confused (since I played that ages ago.)

It likely was a different game where I saw the whole "offense is also a mean of protecting," not trying to use it as "because it happened it can happen again" just that events can result in story justifying different approaches to things. If change was not acceptable for a person or group... hell Gaius changing his entire character direction wasn't a retcon, was character evolution, same could easily be applied to a player's job quest line.

Mind you, I know it wont happen, but am still not particularly fond of the concept that any change of direction would be considered retconing.

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Originally Posted by Physic

it might make more sense if the forks had different names, for the classes whose stories are more directly followed by the jobs that came after it.

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Although I would love that kind of forking, it would means retaining Classes in perpetuity [not against it, it would give a reason for them to exist at all] but also... the trend seems to be to remove tools and give new ones, and the ones removed seem to continue being removed from the base class, making leveling from 1-30 a pain in the [bleep]!

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interesting thing is arcanist already does this, with scholar and summoner.

i guess they didnt want to commit to two branches per class/job.

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Think the issue was how hard it became to balance Summoner and Scholar independently from each other when they both had to share such a big part of their toolkit.