add more content to MSQ roulette

in order to make msq roulette less awful there should be more endgame trials/dungeons/etc added. keeper of the lake, nidhogg, ala mhigo, seiryu, etc

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Originally Posted by grinkdaboy

in order to make msq roulette less awful there should be more endgame trials/dungeons/etc added. keeper of the lake, nidhogg, ala mhigo, seiryu, etc

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Those are available in other roulettes.

take them out of them then

I believe you've missed the point of MSQ roulette.
The duties in there are the ONLY duties with long cutscenes that constantly play during the experience. While SE admitted this was a bad idea and has promised never to do this again since it created a disparity of people who were doing the story and wanting to watch them and people who were getting the dungeon and skipping it all to finish faster, they've kept them because they're arguably a enjoyable part of the story for first timers and the work to change them would be better used elsewhere. They were put into their own roulette and then later made all the cutscenes unskippable so that people couldn't be rushed through it. The roulette is there to help people finish MSQ. If you don't want to run those instances.. don't queue for it.

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Originally Posted by grinkdaboy

take them out of them then

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no .. not with enforced Cs unless they remove that stupid move

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Originally Posted by grinkdaboy

take them out of them then

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No thanks. I want to enjoy Final Steps of Faith or Royal Menagerie in a Roulette where I don't chance spending an hour of my time trapped in unskippable cutscenes.

I understand why they did what they did for MSQ Roulette, but when you get it in Mentor Roulette often and see even new players complaining about it, you start to wish they change them into Squadron or Trust dungeons in the future.

The thing is... The stuff in MSQ Roulette is intentionally limited.

Due to the fact that they're the 2 MSQ necessary 8 man Dungeons that have about 5 years worth of cutscenes in them.

This means that, not only do new players NEED to do them in order to progress the MSQ, but that they also need to get 8 people to do them as well as needing to be able to see the cutscenes for the story to make sense.

Thus, they were isolated, into their own little Roulette and given unskippable cutscenes along with a fairly hefty Roulette bonus to entice players into running them despite the awfulness that is actually running them. In order to keep the queues for them populated and without them being the annoying dungeon you get in other roulettes that many people would insta-leave from (Just like happens in other games that have terrible dungeons...)

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Originally Posted by Kalise

The thing is... The stuff in MSQ Roulette is intentionally limited.

Due to the fact that they're the 2 MSQ necessary 8 man Dungeons that have about 5 years worth of cutscenes in them.

This means that, not only do new players NEED to do them in order to progress the MSQ, but that they also need to get 8 people to do them as well as needing to be able to see the cutscenes for the story to make sense.

Thus, they were isolated, into their own little Roulette and given unskippable cutscenes along with a fairly hefty Roulette bonus to entice players into running them despite the awfulness that is actually running them. In order to keep the queues for them populated and without them being the annoying dungeon you get in other roulettes that many people would insta-leave from (Just like happens in other games that have terrible dungeons...)

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^This. The sole reason the MSQ roulette exists is to isolate Castrum and Prae so only people willing to do them can queue. Removing the cutscenes would also remove the compensation reward, making the roulette redundant.

Just delete the roulette instead. It keeps mucking up my mentor roulette with a wasted 30 minutes from withdraw.

If I saw fit to watch the cutscene gallery, then I'd be wasting closer to an hour I could be spending with someone that actually needs more than my fairy as a main healer.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Just delete the roulette instead. It keeps mucking up my mentor roulette with a wasted 30 minutes from withdraw.

If I saw fit to watch the cutscene gallery, then I'd be wasting closer to an hour I could be spending with someone that actually needs more than my fairy as a main healer.

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Stop running mentor roulette if you're not willing to run all of the contained duties.

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Originally Posted by grinkdaboy

in order to make msq roulette less awful there should be more endgame trials/dungeons/etc added. keeper of the lake, nidhogg, ala mhigo, seiryu, etc

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Stopped reading when I saw Seiryu in there because he isn't mandatory for MSQ progression.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Just delete the roulette instead. It keeps mucking up my mentor roulette with a wasted 30 minutes from withdraw.

If I saw fit to watch the cutscene gallery, then I'd be wasting closer to an hour I could be spending with someone that actually needs more than my fairy as a main healer.

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The MSQ roulette is staying as it is for a while, along with the 2 dungeons staying in the Mentor Roulette. The rewards for clearing it and helping other progress through the story are rewards that many still don't want to pass up and take for granted.

As far as Mentor Roulette goes, I'd rather do Castrum Meridianum or Praetorium than an EX primal nowadays because I can CLEAR these 2 dungeons and get a win from the mentor roulette, despite the unskippable cutscenes no less. People are still careless in doing EX primals via duty finder synced, more so being unprepared for mechanics being explained and being undergeared for them in several areas.

A much better solution is for Castrum Meridianum and Praetorium to be made into single-player instances.. maybe with a party of NPCs to help you. It's a good use case for the Trust system. There's just no reason to have these special snowflake dungeons enforce party play.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

A much better solution is for Castrum Meridianum and Praetorium to be made into single-player instances.. maybe with a party of NPCs to help you. It's a good use case for the Trust system. There's just no reason to have these special snowflake dungeons enforce party play.

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How is using valuable development resources (like time and manpower) to change 2 dungeons that most of the playerbase will run once and never again a better solution than people just not running the instance if they can't deal with the cutscenes?
And we don't even know how robust the trust system is, maybe it already is compatible with this?

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Stop running mentor roulette if you're not willing to run all of the contained duties.

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being willing 2 run it and not being willing 2 be traped in a 2 hour movie is 2 different things

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Stop running mentor roulette if you're not willing to run all of the contained duties.

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Nope. I do what I want.

And I don't see a dungeon that I've successfully main healed through my fairy to be worth an hour of my time.

The penalty for staying is greater than the penalty for withdrawing.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

How is using valuable development resources (like time and manpower) to change 2 dungeons that most of the playerbase will run once and never again a better solution than people just not running the instance if they can't deal with the cutscenes?
And we don't even know how robust the trust system is, maybe it already is compatible with this?

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Honestly, there are even new players or individuals that level up alts through the story that do not want to see the cutscenes, but are forced into them each time—even running Castrum and Praetorium unsynced with a level 70 forces you into them. I’d rather they get rid of the Roulette and just retailer them to Squadron/Trust instances. This way, they can remove the unskippable feature; so people that want to watch can, and those who don’t want to don’t have to.

I don’t mind them spending a bit of resources on programming NPCs to take the place of regular party members. It’s not like the MSQ Roulette is a fan favorite by any stretch—and the poetics can be easily obtained a variety of other ways.

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

As far as Mentor Roulette goes, I'd rather do Castrum Meridianum or Praetorium than an EX primal nowadays because I can CLEAR these 2 dungeons and get a win from the mentor roulette, despite the unskippable cutscenes no less. People are still careless in doing EX primals via duty finder synced, more so being unprepared for mechanics being explained and being undergeared for them in several areas.

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Personally, I’m the opposite—while the MSQ dungeons are easy wins, I also prefer to feel engaged and those two dungeons leave me anything but. I’ve started running Mentor Roulette simply out of boredom, and as frustrating as it is to get Shiva EX with a bunch of players that don’t want to follow directions, at least I’m engaged in it.

To be honest, they should make it optional or at least create a function/option where everyone can agree to skip cutscenes altogether or enjoy them. Being stuck for 30+ minutes feels like a terrible chore more than anything else.

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

being willing 2 run it and not being willing 2 be traped in a 2 hour movie is 2 different things

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...Untrue. If you are aware of what it entails. The cutscenes are part of it. If you are unwilling to sit through them you are unwilling to run the content. The cutscenes are currently part of it.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Nope. I do what I want.

And I don't see a dungeon that I've successfully main healed through my fairy to be worth an hour of my time.

The penalty for staying is greater than the penalty for withdrawing.

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Then don't complain about it when you have to "endure" it. You picked the roulette, you know it's in there. Don't run it if you're not willing to do what it's asking you to do.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Honestly, there are even new players or individuals that level up alts through the story that do not want to see the cutscenes, but are forced into them each time—even running Castrum and Praetorium unsynced with a level 70 forces you into them. I’d rather they get rid of the Roulette and just retailer them to Squadron/Trust instances. This way, they can remove the unskippable feature; so people that want to watch can, and those who don’t want to don’t have to.

I don’t mind them spending a bit of resources on programming NPCs to take the place of regular party members. It’s not like the MSQ Roulette is a fan favorite by any stretch—and the poetics can be easily obtained a variety of other ways.

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I'd be fine if there were alternatives available, and honestly I wonder why running it unsynced has the same limitations (is the flag an all or nothing thing?) Programming NPC's to deal with AOE and mechanics is a widely beneficial bit of programming and something I feel is worth the resources. Redoing the actual instances so that they're one player friendly is less so.

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Originally Posted by Lunalepsy

To be honest, they should make it optional or at least create a function/option where everyone can agree to skip cutscenes altogether or enjoy them. Being stuck for 30+ minutes feels like a terrible chore more than anything else.

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Generally the argument against this is people will be pressured to vote "skip" even if they don't want to or one newbie will be majority voted into skipping when they don't want to. Again.. why are you running the roulette if you don't like the content? There are more "efficient" ways of getting tomes/XP

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Then don't complain about it when you have to "endure" it. You picked the roulette, you know it's in there. Don't run it if you're not willing to do what it's asking you to do.

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But I did want to run the roulette until a dungeon that quite clearly didn't need me came up. Then I didn't want to run it, so I withdrew again. Not my problem if the party sometimes collapses due to me eating the initial penalty.

That's why I complain, and will continue to complain about it; I don't find it worth running these dungeons. And I'm always going to complain about substandard content.

I'm not here to clean up Square's self-admitted mistakes; Square needs to fix Square's mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Generally the argument against this is people will be pressured to vote "skip" even if they don't want to or one newbie will be majority voted into skipping when they don't want to. Again.. why are you running the roulette if you don't like the content? There are more "efficient" ways of getting tomes/XP

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My guess is they will remove it from the roulettes and let people use their AIs (Trust system) to complete the dungeon. I only did it once or twice for the experience, but never again. I was just sharing my two cents!

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Originally Posted by van_arn

But I did want to run the roulette until a dungeon that quite clearly didn't need me came up. Then I didn't want to run it, so I withdrew again. Not my problem if the party sometimes collapses due to me eating the initial penalty.

That's why I complain, and will continue to complain about it.

I'm not here to clean up Square's self-admitted mistakes; Square needs to fix Square's mistakes.

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You wanted to run the parts of it you wanted to run. Not the entire thing. Stop blaming other people for your self imposed "suffering".

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Originally Posted by Lunalepsy

My guess is they will remove it from the roulettes and let people use their AIs (Trust system) to complete the dungeon. I only did it once or twice for the experience, but never again. I was just sharing my two cents!

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We can only hope. I still enjoy the cruise it offers though. No pressure, just practice the level 50 rotation XD

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

You wanted to run the parts of it you wanted to run. Not the entire thing. Stop blaming other people for your self imposed "suffering".

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I'm not blaming anyone else, though. I'm withdrawing from a crappy dungeon that's not worth healing.

Not to mention I don't have to do a single thing you say. Right! Another mentor roulette, right now!

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Originally Posted by van_arn

I'm not blaming anyone else, though. I'm withdrawing from a crappy dungeon that's not worth healing.

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You're blaming SE. I don't feel you're gimping the parties you're leaving though, I think a light party could beat that with little help and empty spots get filled fast, but you're still abandoning something you agreed to potentially do. It's one dungeon out of quite a few, but you're still cherry picking.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

You're blaming SE. I don't feel you're gimping the parties you're leaving though, I think a light party could beat that with little help and empty spots get filled fast, but you're still abandoning something you agreed to potentially do. It's one dungeon out of quite a few, but you're still cherry picking.

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Cherry picking is perfectly fine, though. As long as the price is worth it, then withdraw away!

As I said, the penalty for running this particular dungeon is greater than the penalty for withdrawing.

Besides. I'm hardly blaming SE; they've admitted they made a mistake with these dungeons. They know and admitted they're bad, they're just incapable of doing anything about them.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I'd be fine if there were alternatives available, and honestly I wonder why running it unsynced has the same limitations (is the flag an all or nothing thing?) Programming NPC's to deal with AOE and mechanics is a widely beneficial bit of programming and something I feel is worth the resources. Redoing the actual instances so that they're one player friendly is less so.

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I do believe that the flag for the cutscenes is all or nothing. It’s the only thing that makes sense, in my opinion.

oddly when i suggested a work-around for the cutscenes most people said they weren't interested and either liked watching the cutscenes or liked using the time afforded to them to do other things

It probably won't matter if one or two people leave as long as there is enough to complete the duty. Those people still helped with the queue, which is probably the most difficult part barring people not knowing the mechanics for Castrum's final boss.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Stop running mentor roulette if you're not willing to run all of the contained duties.

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...I didn't realize those were in there. Guess I have no reason to unlock mentor roulette now. :/

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Originally Posted by Avidria

...I didn't realize those were in there. Guess I have no reason to unlock mentor roulette now. :/

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If I remember correct, Mentor Roulette has everything except last savage tier. Correct me if I'm wrong, cause I did this roulette twice only twice.

The only thing that might make sense being moved into the MSQ roulette is the Steps of Faith, being a rather non-standard trial. But as that also takes a fraction of the time, it doesn't really seem like a worthwhile move.

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

being willing 2 run it and not being willing 2 be traped in a 2 hour movie is 2 different things

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Castrum and Prae are ran like clockwork, 30 and 45 minutes respectively. If you have to exaggerate how long it takes to complete to this extent to establish a point, you really have no point at all.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Honestly, there are even new players or individuals that level up alts through the story that do not want to see the cutscenes, but are forced into them each time—even running Castrum and Praetorium unsynced with a level 70 forces you into them. I’d rather they get rid of the Roulette and just retailer them to Squadron/Trust instances. This way, they can remove the unskippable feature; so people that want to watch can, and those who don’t want to don’t have to.

I don’t mind them spending a bit of resources on programming NPCs to take the place of regular party members. It’s not like the MSQ Roulette is a fan favorite by any stretch—and the poetics can be easily obtained a variety of other ways.

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If you're leveling an alt, you only need endure Castrum and Prae once. And it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone leveling an alt. Much like going in to the main story roulette, the eventuality of having to go through those cutscenes has to, and should be accepted; otherwise don't do it. Also many players run this roulette for the exp and tomes they give. If SE wasted their time reworking it into solo instances or the trust system, those rewards go away. This will undoubtedly piss off a lot of players. You try to speak for the playerbase, but you're excluding a good portion of them. The poetics and exp being able to be obtained other ways argument works in your favor as well. Actually more so. If you know of better and faster means to obtain the exp and tomes, then don't run this roulette.

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Personally, I’m the opposite—while the MSQ dungeons are easy wins, I also prefer to feel engaged and those two dungeons leave me anything but. I’ve started running Mentor Roulette simply out of boredom, and as frustrating as it is to get Shiva EX with a bunch of players that don’t want to follow directions, at least I’m engaged in it.

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Again, if you want to feel engaged, then don't run it. They could take these two instances out of mentor roulette, but being a mentor should not be about what's best for you. That status should be a representation of your willingness to help other players.

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Originally Posted by grinkdaboy

in order to make msq roulette less awful there should be more endgame trials/dungeons/etc added. keeper of the lake, nidhogg, ala mhigo, seiryu, etc

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This roulette exists only so that new players don't get 'locked out' when they hit 50 and need to move from 2.0 to 2.1... It serves no other purpose.

And it shouldn't.

I'm in the opinion that the two dungeons in it should me made into solo duties. When you play them the story in them actually would make more sense if it was solo... It never made sense as group content to begin with...

I say they remove that roulette altogether and make it a solo duty. It'd actually be giving new people a better experience if they did that.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

I'm not blaming anyone else, though. I'm withdrawing from a crappy dungeon that's not worth healing.

Not to mention I don't have to do a single thing you say. Right! Another mentor roulette, right now!

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People like you are why I feel like there should be a 48 hour lockout from doing ANYTHING in game if you're removed for whatever reason (disconnect, kicked, leave, etc). That way the penalty for leaving or being removed for any reason is way worse than the penalty for staying. Expand it to mentor roulette in general tbh.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

I'm in the opinion that the two dungeons in it should me made into solo duties. When you play them the story in them actually would make more sense if it was solo... It never made sense as group content to begin with...

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The story leading up to them makes a big point that you're leading an elite adventurer unit to take out the Ultima Weapon. I guess they just sorta politely stand aside during cutscenes.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

People like you are why I feel like there should be a 48 hour lockout from doing ANYTHING in game if you're removed for whatever reason (disconnect, kicked, leave, etc). That way the penalty for leaving or being removed for any reason is way worse than the penalty for staying. Expand it to mentor roulette in general tbh.

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Cause that would not be abused by trolls at all. Nope. Never.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

Cause that would not be abused by trolls at all. Nope. Never.

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It's a case of balancing it out... it's going to be abused one way or another no matter what SE do (make it so it only applies to leaving duty, either kick someone else out to avoid the penalty or get themselves kicked, make it so it applies to being disconnected/removed from the duty by any means and you'll get trolls who use it to spite another player). But I feel that it has to be done to avoid the demands to be kicked (to avoid the penalty). In fact, I just sent a report in to the GMs over someone using the disconnect thing to bypass the forced cutscenes in The Praetorium, and found out that my ex girlfriend is apparently one to abuse that herself in main scenario roulette to get the rewards quicker. I mean, I get the cutscenes suck and all, but exploits aren't the way to go you know.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

It's a case of balancing it out... it's going to be abused one way or another. But I feel that it has to be done to avoid the demands to be kicked (to avoid the penalty). In fact, I just sent a report in to the GMs over someone using the disconnect thing to bypass the forced cutscenes in The Praetorium, and found out that my ex girlfriend is apparently one to abuse that herself in main scenario roulette to get the rewards quicker. I mean, I get the cutscenes suck and all, but exploits aren't the way to go you know.

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You asked for a blanketed 48 hour lock out for anyone vote kicked, who leaves early or who disconnects. Since internet drops sometimes and you dc it would be foolish to punish your paying customers for something like that. And ppl would get their jollies by queueing for a duty and vote kicking randoms just to give them a 48 hour lockout to everything that game has to offer. That would cause a huge rift and get to the point of ppl just bailing on the game or party finder, cause they would have a hard time getting anything done. There is no balancing that out.

If someone queues for a duty and get the 1 out of 30 they would rather not do, let them leave and eat 30 minutes. It's entirely their prerogative and should make no difference to you at all. I would rather let someone who doesn't want to be there leave than force them into running something they don't want to and putting 0 effort into it.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

People like you are why I feel like there should be a 48 hour lockout from doing ANYTHING in game if you're removed for whatever reason (disconnect, kicked, leave, etc). That way the penalty for leaving or being removed for any reason is way worse than the penalty for staying. Expand it to mentor roulette in general tbh.

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That's not the penalty for withdraw, though, so what you feel in this regard is tangential.

I'll just keep withdrawing as long as the penalty for staying is greater than the penalty for leaving. Square isn't stupid enough to discourage use of this roulette further.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

You asked for a blanketed 48 hour lock out for anyone vote kicked, who leaves early or who disconnects. Since internet drops sometimes and you dc it would be foolish to punish your paying customers for something like that. And ppl would get their jollies by queueing for a duty and vote kicking randoms just to give them a 48 hour lockout to everything that game has to offer. That would cause a huge rift and get to the point of ppl just bailing on the game or party finder, cause they would have a hard time getting anything done. There is no balancing that out.

If someone queues for a duty and get the 1 out of 30 they would rather not do, let them leave and eat 30 minutes. It's entirely their prerogative and should make no difference to you at all. I would rather let someone who doesn't want to be there leave than force them into running something they don't want to and putting 0 effect into it.

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Well... perhaps that could be handled differently, but it should be at the very least the length of the longest duty in the game (is it 2 hours, so perhaps 2 hours?). The idea is, the penalty should be higher (since you agreed to get any duty in the list) for leaving than it is for staying. While 48 hours is indeed a very harsh penalty, you agreed to the roll of the dice including getting a duty you might not want. And since that to me is something you agree to, the punishment for leaving should not be lesser than for staying.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

That's not the penalty for withdraw, though, so what you feel in this regard is tangential.

I'll just keep withdrawing as long as the penalty for staying is greater than the penalty for leaving. Square isn't stupid enough to discourage use of this roulette further.

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And you're well within your rights to, just like I am well within my rights to campaign for a harsher penalty for it.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

People like you are why I feel like there should be a 48 hour lockout from doing ANYTHING in game if you're removed for whatever reason (disconnect, kicked, leave, etc). That way the penalty for leaving or being removed for any reason is way worse than the penalty for staying. Expand it to mentor roulette in general tbh.

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Congratulations! That is the single worst idea I've ever heard for this game. Well done!

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

If someone queues for a duty and get the 1 out of 30 they would rather not do, let them leave and eat 30 minutes. It's entirely their prerogative and should make no difference to you at all. I would rather let someone who doesn't want to be there leave than force them into running something they don't want to and putting 0 effort into it.

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Er... it WOULD make no difference to me except when it's a tank or healer that does it in a 4-man dungeon and you get no backfill. A dps player sits through a half hour or more queue sometimes just to get IN to the dungeon in the first place, and then that happens? It's not great.