http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/03/03/the-mog-log-apparently-i-enjoy-receiving-hate-mail/
Just a interesting artcile about FFXI (and XIV)
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03-04-2012, 10:00 AMAdvancedWindJust a interesting artcile about FFXI (and XIV)
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03-04-2012, 10:06 AMRau
I don't get how he claimed forced grouping was one of the bad things in XI because he got into stupid parties. Forced partying got me into parties where I met some awesome people, and eventually a linkshell that I can remember with the good memories far outweighing the bad ones.
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03-04-2012, 10:18 AMChiefCurrahee
I don't think he meant that forced grouping was a terrible thing all around. He just meant it was a hard stop for a lot of people because you couldn't progress your character without relying on the avialability of other people. I recall sitting in Jeuno for days at a time on my dragoon LFG. and when that invite came it was like winning the lotto. Then those PTs lasted for hours.
The first ~5 years of FFXI there was no real viable way to progress even at a slow pace to level solo.
Not until they added Campaign, fields of valor and more recently EXP adjustments did they made solo a tangable option for a player. -
03-04-2012, 10:31 AMIssacInteresting article, and interesting comment. Wonder who it was? :pQuote:
You seem to be grasping onto your own definition of the word "Remake" and not the one that the community is truly asking for. It is the absolute truth that when XIV came out the majority of the community said "Oh they should have just made FFXI-HD". Its also true that the same community said "I hope its not just FFXI-HD" when the game was announced at E3.
I do think you find fault in a lot more of XI than the vast majority of us who played it for 5-10 years. I do not find as much fault in the "forced grouping" as you do. I believe that it was a necessary evil and that it forced the grouping in a manner that was acceptable in most situations. However, your comments on the "mystery" aspects of the game are dead on, to a certain degree. Gone are the days when we are accepting of the 2 year search for the pop conditions of a certain NM. Gone are the willingness of players to search for months and months on how to craft something. These mysteries are the kind of things that need to go, all the rest are what is so desperately needed in the genre today.
As I said, your clinging to your definition of "remake" is what kills this. What we all want now is a return to Vanadiel. A true sequel ala Guild Wars 2. Vandiel is a unique and wonderful world complete with awesome character and story (better than any other MMO out there today. There is a reason you can't find a server in wow without a Prishe or a Shantotto on it.) We want a true sequel. The good of XI far outweighs the bad. The Horizontal and Vertical progression of the Job System. The forced grouping (in certain situations). The intricate (yet would need to be modernized) crafting system. The danger of exploration and Sneak/Invis. The World Boss HNM/NM system. A constant level cap with Merits for slight improvements. Yet nothing really can hold a candle to the vast amount of endgame activities FFXI accumulated over the years. Because of the constant level cap and their refusal to created "loot" that was so fundamentally better than others, every end game activity that was added was a viable avenue of progression and fun. It wasnt until they raised the cap that the true FFXI died. Yet even with the new 99 cap, they are making strides at retuning this content to once again be viable.
In the end, yes we love our Taru and our Mithra (and even the odd people who love their Galka). We want to go back there. The storylines draw our memory and our nostalgia like nothing WoW, Lotro, Rift, Aion or any other MMO could ever do. Give us a modern look with "modern group combat" complete with the "augmented trinity" that XI had with Tank, Healer, Damage and Buffing and Debuffing. You didnt always need all of them, but you needed some of them.
Its not a remake we want, but a sequel that gave us all the good that XI gave with none of the bad. What we got was XIV, which gave us none of the good systems from XI, some of the bad and a lot of copy paste, bad server and graphical design and just a lot of poorly thought out decisions which ended up being a bad "game".
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03-04-2012, 10:37 AMTehDonloldrgQuote:
I recall sitting in Jeuno for days at a time on my dragoon LFG.
had to . . w -
03-04-2012, 10:41 AMFated
Is this guy stuck in 2010 or something?
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03-04-2012, 11:01 AMAnswaHe's talking about FFXI in the past tense. So... probably.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fated
And yes, being forced to wait hours to find a party for my SMN was... annoying. I'd just leave it logged on all day and do homework/play other games. It really was a complete stop if you couldn't find a party. Now? Not so much. -
03-04-2012, 11:36 AMMysteriousRonin
Read some of his other Final Fantasy posts, he is a moron. Most of the commenters on those sites just agree with whatever the writers say no matter how dumb or wrong they are, they will defend them religiously and those that don't agree usually end up getting their comments deleted (Though it's not as bad as Joystiq). As expected of the Joystiq sites.
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03-04-2012, 11:56 AMChardrizardIt's an opinion. Just because you doesn't agree doesn't make him a moron.Quote:
Originally Posted by MysteriousRonin
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03-04-2012, 04:41 PMNefarioCall
i stopped reading at "Final Fantasy XI was a terrible game'.
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03-04-2012, 05:06 PMBenedictionWhat's the difference with the people on this forum? I usually see people unable to take any positive criticisms of this (terrible) game and just label the post/poster as a troll, moron or anything to discredit the opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by MysteriousRonin
Honestly, the guy has some very good points. Just as he said, FFXI-2 wouldn't make sense at any level because it wouldn't add anything. Logistically, they could just do a graphical upgrade to FFXI; budget wise, they could just focus their effort on upgrading the game mechanics of FFXI; and common sense... why would you create a sequel that is exactly the same as its predecessor? You would not only waste money and time, you'd also be taking away players from the old game so you end up with barely new subscribers. -
03-04-2012, 10:15 PMMysteriousRoninI'd hate to ruin your naive perspective on life but not all opinions are created equal. The opinion of a moron, no matter if he writes on a blog or runs a country, is still a morons opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chardrizard
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03-04-2012, 10:27 PMBenedictionThat is only true if you have something to prove that your opinion is actually worth greater than others.Quote:
Originally Posted by MysteriousRonin
Right now your opinion is worth as much as that blogger so by definition, your post could be considered moronic. -
03-04-2012, 11:04 PMDelsus
This was quite interesting, if you ignore his comments about how forced partying was a bad thing.
Its effectively just saying why FFXIV should not be a port of FFXI, with arguments like "it would just be a sequil with none of the merits of a sequil" and about how the playerbase would only be FFXI players.
If I was him I would have put the comments at the top near the end, because I was debating whether to read on after that. -
03-04-2012, 11:07 PMGrissWell then you stopped reading right before he explained that point now didn't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by NefarioCall
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03-04-2012, 11:08 PMKio
I can't help but feel that the author was confused about what exactly people mean by their hope that XIV would have been more similar to an HD version of XI.
It wasn't that many fans literally wanted the entire game to have a graphics remaster and leave it as it is, which is what the author suggests. The reality is that many of XIV's customers have arrived to this place through an avenue of familiarity and fondness of XI. It doesn't help that XIV was crafted in a way to have a very similar art design to XI, I could easily envision Eorzea being an extention of Vana'diel. I think that created a situation wherein comparison was natural to do. Anyway, once expecting fans arrived at the end of said avenue they realized they were in a much different destination than expected and it was a slight let-down albeit it not a detrimental one.
A lot of people quietly pined for a game that combined all the positive aspects of XI, the beautiful graphics capability of XIV, and mixed it in with a slightly new play style. XIV didn't offer that however, and at least from the start it didn't even present anything that gave any indication it was related to the Final Fantasy series at all let alone their last mmo iteration.
My conversations with other players in game is that, despite knowing XIV is a stand alone title of it's own, most still perceive it as a sequel to XI. That's not necessarily a negative thing. We're in an interesting position wherein we can actively take good ideas from XI, already see how they've worked or didn't work, and re-implement them in new and exciting ways. And in my observations, that's really what a lot of players expected to have been done already(but wasn't) when they purchased XIV. Not that they actually expected the entire game or mechanics to be carbon copied.
On a deviated note, there's a long-running rumour that XI will become available for the PSVita. If that is true, I hope they do what I believe it was Everquest had done in the past. They opened an optional brand new server only for new character creation, and made only the base game playable on it. Then each month release the patches and expansions in the order they were originally released. So new players could experience or relive the game as it originally was but at a faster pace. -
03-04-2012, 11:27 PMWynnThen you missed out on a very good explanation of what he meant. That's too bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by NefarioCall
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03-05-2012, 02:25 AMMireilleHis second point is absolutely correct though. A straight graphics upgrade will do nothing for people who have played the game for the last 11 years. For the vast majority of XI fans everything has been done already. Upgrading the graphics won't get people to start doing beseiged, or campaign battle again. That content is dead because people burned out on it, and moved to newer content.Quote:
Originally Posted by MysteriousRonin
If they were to update the graphics, and introduce a whole new game area the size of the original and 4 more expansions it might be a different story. I would however wager that many old school players won't like XI in its current incarnation though.
If they were to make an XI-2 set a in the far future with a tech level more along the lines of XIII, and create a story that ties the game back to its original roots and some of the original zones in some way it might be interesting. -
03-05-2012, 02:57 AMKoku
Overall I believe it was an interesting read. The guy laid out his outline and made a point for most of his suggestions and reasoning. Not everything I agreed with, but it went in a logical direction. I can respect that.
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03-05-2012, 03:13 AMRydin
well with its current plan... FFXIV has the "Potential" to do bigger numbers than FFXI ever did....
To SE... I guess the best compromise is to repackage all the stuff that worked in FFXI and just call it something different -
03-05-2012, 03:17 AMAnaviAnael
FFXI: a game I played for years, had fun playing because of my awesome friends, defeated many difficult challenges in, and was plagued by devs who thought they knew what the players wanted more than the players themselves.
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03-05-2012, 03:24 AMNefarioCallYes ... yes i did ... although i gather it was related to 'forced party play/stationary camp/grind' etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Griss
I played WoW and Star Wars. I never really saw the attraction to either and left both after a couple months.
I'd even say FFXIV at launch was the better game over either of those two. ... but the phrase, 'that's just me' probably really does apply in this case. xD -
03-05-2012, 03:30 AMyukikaze_yanagiThat's exactly the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rydin
packing 11-years old content with different name will bring this game to closure for sure: old ffxi player will never touch it, they played it for 11 years and they want something new. Potential new player see a sorpassed gameplay and never touch the game.
Basicly, ffxi was great, but don't bring it back with an other name. Let ffxiv walk his road -
03-05-2012, 03:57 AMXooNo offense, but it's your own fault you spent days looking for a party. Too many people sit around with their hands in their pockets and claim design flaw. If you want it, go get it! I'll say again, it took me just 3 weeks to get 1-75 THF because I started the majority of my groups.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee
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03-05-2012, 04:05 AMRydinI agree.. and I didn't play FFXI... what I mean by repacking.. is using the spirit of FFXI.. the innovative thinking that gave so much varying content... more NMs than Jay Leno has cars... Long term goals... always something to do....Quote:
Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi
I think the best compromise is to take ideas from FFXI (And honestly other MMOs too) and use them not as a blueprint... but as inspiration for a brand new gameplay experience
I think thats what most FFXI vets ask for when they bring up FFXI... nto a clone.. or a reskin... but a fun experience...
Its only a very small minority that ask for a true FFXI-2... and they kind of spoil everyone elses image of FFXI vets -
03-05-2012, 04:08 AMBenedictionNo, it's definitely a design flaw. The classes were way too unbalanced; mostly showing their bias by favouring Samurai and barely providing effective healers other than White Mage or Red Mage. For the longest time, Dragoon was at the bottom of the list of jobs to invite to groups. So, anyone who wanted to play it were forced to wait long hours for invites or forced to play another job to enjoy the game. The classes should be balanced enough to give freedom for players to play any class they want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xoo
Also, you know that everyone is different so it shouldn't be a surprise to you that a lot of people were too lazy to start their own groups. -
03-05-2012, 04:11 AMRydin*Shameless plug alert*Quote:
Originally Posted by Benediction
Thats why we need this to promote using every class:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Battle-Theory -
03-05-2012, 04:17 AMBenedictionWell yeah I agree... it's mostly 4 classes you see in groups. I have Pugilist as my first 50 because I enjoyed the class, but it was basically unwated because the class is broken. So I just went over to my usual class (healer) and got that to 50 (and several others) so I can group. These classes definitely still need more adjusting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rydin
Edit: what the... my avatar changed in two posts? -
03-05-2012, 04:19 AMRydinDo you believe in magic?Quote:
Originally Posted by Benediction
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03-05-2012, 04:23 AMBenedictionOf course... how else can we explain what happened?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rydin
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03-05-2012, 04:27 AMXooAs far as XI, which job was in highest regard was completely situational. Of course, people are going to gravitate toward the more efficient, but by no means are people going to completely deny any job who is worth their salt at what they do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benediction
As a leader, I never looked at any job and went "Eww. No." I even preferred SMN > BRD on Imps and DRK > SAM in the same situation.
In fact, I fully believe that the majority are too lazy, which is my point entirely. -
03-05-2012, 04:33 AMBenedictionIn terms of leveling, any class should be invited to any group. Gravitating towards one over the other just means an unbalanced job system. In terms, of end game events though, that's debatable (since you can change to any class with one character).Quote:
Originally Posted by Xoo
And yes people are lazy so they shouldn't be forced to find their own groups all the time. Balanced system = no need to force yourself to find groups. Since ideally, any job would be invited. -
03-05-2012, 04:39 AMXooYou seem to be missing the reason why the jobs seemed imbalanced. Mobs have different strengths and weaknesses, and so do the jobs, obviously. When the weakness of one job meets the strength of the enemy, then efficiency is going on the down-slope. If the player is not adequately geared/skilled/willing to pull up the slack, then the job is naturally going to get a bad rep. Samurai was so popular because of the damage it could pull off versus Colibri. Before that, in my opinion, it didn't shine any more than any other DD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benediction
It's funny that you keep resorting to players being lazy as a problem with the game. This seems nonsense to me. I think what you mean is: "Why can't I get something for nothing"? -
03-05-2012, 04:42 AMBenedictionyeah? that is the reason why it was unbalanced, I'm not disagreeing with you there lol (geez) But my point was that it shouldn't be unbalanced and players should have the freedom to play any class the want. I thought my point was clear? lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Xoo
Eduit: Also a few people who play a class badly, should have no bearing on whether the class is unpopular. Again... ideally, a balanced system would cancel out the stigma by an equal amount of good players who play the same class -
03-05-2012, 04:44 AMRydinI don't know if you clicked the link to my thread a couple posts back...Quote:
Originally Posted by Xoo
But without some kind of special objectives that can only be pulled off by certain classes.... then some classes will always go without love... just because the "Best" class rotates between 2 or 3... there will always be classes that get "No Love"
Imagine in FFXI if there were NM's that resisted "charm" yet it made it so the NM couldn't do a certain ability....
Then people wouldn't shun the beastmaster as much....
You see where Im going... there should be a reason to use every class or else it shouldn't be in the game
No point of putting classes in just to pad class count -
03-05-2012, 04:45 AMXooWhat you seem to think of as imbalance - I call depth. Something FFXIV is desperately lacking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benediction
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03-05-2012, 04:45 AMRydinHaving certain classes be unusable is the opposite of depth...Quote:
Originally Posted by Xoo
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03-05-2012, 04:46 AMBenedictionoh I agree with you there, the game does need depth. But the classes are still unbalanced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xoo
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03-05-2012, 04:49 AMXooBeastmaster was intended to be a solo job, primarily. I'll have you know that just for fun, I made a group of RDM BRD BST BST PUP PUP once versus Greater Colibri. We had a blast. The greatest and most fun EXP party I've ever led was BLM BLM WAR WAR DRG DRG killing Robber Crabs; They died sooo fast. It's just the fact that, like it's been so many times now, people are lazy and rely on the cookie-cutter far too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rydin
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03-05-2012, 04:51 AMRydinhonestly if one party make up is way easier... people are going to gravitate towards that and shun the other classesQuote:
Originally Posted by Xoo
Knowing that people aren't going to change... the fights could be made to encourage more varied groupings of classes