Edit: 1st April Update:
Changed some existing skills and mechanics. Added new level 70-80 skills.
So, due to playing some more Eureka, I've had some time during thisengaging and fun contentcontent to think about ShB and job overhauls/reworks. Today I would like to share what I've got so far for the job Warrior:
Role Actions:
Not exclusive to WAR, but I envision a change to Role Actions which I'll highlight here.
Rampart - Has now been turned into job specific variants that provide a similar effect. For WAR, it is now Thrill of Battle for 20% max + current health. Still retaining 20s duration and using Rampart's 90s CD.
Low Blow - Removed
Provoke - Removed. Instead the effect has now been folded into the Tanks ranged skills Tomahawk, Shield Lob and Unmend. These skills are now oGCD, have only 50 potency and cost 20% max MP. In addition, these skills have their range increased to 25y up from 15y.
Convalescence - Removed. Tanks now gain access to a self sustain cooldown in its stead.
Anticipation - Tanks now get a high level trait to upgrade Anticipation into a unique job specific variant. For example, WAR traits into Raw Intuition and PLD traits into Bulwark.
Reprisal - Cooldown reduced to 45s down from 60s
Awareness - Removed.
Interject - Now causes 1s Disable effect. Preventing the use of Spells or Actions. Does not suffer from Diminishing Returns. Effectively, it becomes an interrupt that works on all interruptible enemy actions (I.e. Ones that can be Stunned/Silenced). Cooldown reduced to 15s down from 30s.
Ultimatum - Can now be cast while targeting an ally to affect the area around them.
Shirk - Unchanged.
Leveling:
New skills highlighted in bold.
1 - Heavy Swing
4 - Skull Sunder
6 - Berserk
8 - Thrill of Battle
10 - Overpower
12 - Interject
14 - Butcher's Block
15 - Tomahawk
16 - Crushing Strike
18 - Maim
20 - Mighty Cleave
22 - Ground Shaker
24 - Anticipation
26 - Bloodbath
28 - Storm's Path
30 - Mercy Stroke
30 - Defiance
32 - Reprisal
34 - Smash
35 - Inner Beast
36 - Fracture
38 - Storm's Eye
40 - Unchained
42 - Holmgang
44 - Ultimatum
45 - Steel Cyclone
46 - Vengeance
48 - Shirk
50 - Smite of Rage
50 - Furious Guard
52 - Deliverance
54 - Fell Cleave
56 - Raw Intuition
58 - Equilibrium
60 - Decimate
62 - Onslaught
64 - Upheaval
66 - Fractured Earth
68 - Warcry
70 - Inner Release
72 - Furore
74 - Deep Wounds
76 - Inner Calm
78 - Magic Counter
80 - Tectonic Fissure
Skill Updates and Changes
Here is where I will cover all of the changes to existing skills as well as detail new skills.
Defiance, Deliverance, Beast Gauge and Spenders:
The largest overhaul is to do with the job gauge mechanic as a whole as well as stances.
In this idea, WAR no longer has stances at all. But instead uses a dual Gauge system.
Upon learning Defiance at level 30 with the Warrior job, you gain access to the Defiance gauge. This is filled up by using certain actions.
Filling Defiance gauge grants passive increases to parry chance, up to a maximum of 10%.
Defiance gauge can be spent on using Inner Beast, Steel Cyclone and Furious Guard.
Similarly, upon learning Deliverance at level 52 you gain access to the Deliverance gauge. This is filled up by using certain actions.
Filling Deliverance gauge grants passive increases to critical strike chance, up to a maximum of 10%.
Deliverance gauge can be spent on using Fell Cleave, Decimate and Upheaval.
Aesthetically, the two gauges will sit one on top of the other inside the Beast Gauge UI element. With Defiance being the current yellow/orange colour and Deliverance being a blue colour.
On player models, upon reaching 50 Defiance, the current orange graphics appear on your character. Upon reaching 50 Deliverance, a new blue coloured graphic will appear (I'm thinking something like swirling blue flames - Akin to the ones used at the end of the current Deliverance animation after the orbs have entered your body, just blue coloured)
Now, going through the list of changed/new skills by level:
Heavy Swing - Generates 5 Defiance.
Skull Sunder - Can no longer be put onto action bars. Instead, Heavy Swing automatically transitions into it as you progress the combo. Generates 10 Defiance. Additionally, restores MP.
Butcher's Block - Can no longer be put onto action bars. Instead, Heavy Swing automatically transitions into it as you progress the combo. Generates 10 Defiance. Additionally, grants a buff reducing damage taken by 10% for 30 seconds.
Thrill of Battle - Cooldown reduced to 90s down from 120s.
Crushing Strike - A new skill. Functionally identical to Heavy Swing in terms of potency. Generates 5 Deliverance.
Maim - Generates 10 Deliverance. Cannot be placed on an action bar. Instead Crushing Strike transitions into it.
Mighty Cleave + Ground Shaker - Cannot be placed on an action bar. Instead, Overpower transitions into them. Mighty Cleave is a 180 degree cone (Semi-circle in front of you) and Ground Shaker is a PBAoE strike.
Storm's Path - Generates 10 Deliverance. Cannot be placed on an action bar. Instead Crushing Strike transitions into it. Heals for 50% of the damage it deals. Now also applies a buff increasing damage by 10% for 30s (Instead of Storm's Eye)
Mercy Stroke - 15s CD skill that deals bonus damage to targets below 50% life. Deals double bonus damage to targets below 20% life. Heals for 20% max life on a killing blow. Costs 20% MP
Smash - Functionally identical to Crushing Strike.
Inner Beast + Steel Cyclone - Heals for 100% damage dealt and applies the buff "Defiant" increasing max health by 10% for 30s. Costs 50 Defiance.
Fracture - Cannot be placed on an action bar. Instead Smash transitions into it. Leaves a DoT effect lasting 15s on the target.
Storm's Eye - Cannot be placed on an action bar. Instead Smash transitions into it. Now grants a buff increasing Critical Strike Chance by 5% for 30s
Unchained - Now increases the enmity generation of all actions for the duration.
Smite of Rage - 30s CD skill that deals high damage and is always a Direct Critical Hit. Costs 20% MP
Furious Guard - Causes the next attack against you to deal 20% less damage before mitigation. After which you perform a counter attack dealing damage equal to the damage prevented up to a maximum potential damage of X potency (Increased by max health increase effects). oGCD with 15s reuse. Costs 25 Defiance.
Fell Cleave + Decimate - Costs 50 Deliverance.
Raw Intuition - 100% parry chance on attacks from the front. 30% increased parry chance on attacks from other angles. No longer forces critical hits.
Equilibrium - Now always heals and restores 20% MP.
Onslaught - Cooldown increased to 30s. Potency reduced to 50. Now costs 20% max MP
Upheaval - Now costs 25 Deliverance (Potency adjusted accordingly)
Fractured Earth - Trait - Causes Ground Shaker to refresh the duration of Fracture on targets it hits and also spread any existing Fracture effects to targets hit.
Warcry - Replaces Shake It Off. Now is a 120s CD skill that causes self and all party members damage and healing skills to hit for maximum values for 20s
Inner Release - Now increases Gauge generation from skills by 100% instead of making gauge spenders free.
Furore - 30s CD skill that deals high damage to targets in an area around you and stuns them. Costs 20% MP.
Deep Wounds - Trait - Increases the duration of Fracture to 30s and causes Critical Hits of its DoT effect to generate 5 Defiance and 5 Deliverance.
Inner Calm - Provides a Heal over Time effect that is empowered by consuming CD buffs (Thrill of Battle, Vengeance, Inner Beast)
Magic Counter - Trait - Allows the parrying of spells.
Tectonic Fissure - Deals massive damage in a line before you. Dealing X potency to the first target, 10% less for the second, 20% less for the third, 30% less for the fourth, 40% less for the fifth, and 50% less for all remaining enemies.
Combat:
These changes serve to make combat focus around leveraging your 4 combos and gauge skills. Each combo only requires 1 button to transition between all 3 skills (Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder > Butcher's Block. Crushing Strike > Maim > Storm's Path. Smash > Fracture > Storm's Eye. Overpower > Mighty Cleave > Ground Shaker). Each combo also provides some additional effects that you want to maintain or situationally use.
After each combo, you generate 25 of a gauge, which is half the necessary amount to use a spender (Or in the case of Upheaval/Furious Guard, the exact amount) allowing you to rotate their usage between normal combos. During Inner Release, you generate enough gauge to use a full spender each rotation. In addition, after getting Deep Wounds, your Fracture DoT will be able to generate some Gauge.
In addition, you now have 4 additional non-combo skills (Mercy Stroke, Smite of Rage, Furore and Tectonic Fissure) to use when they're available and can ideally save them for during CD burst phases.
Warcry provides some unique utility to WAR, allowing them to remove the damage/healing variance of skills temporarily slightly increasing the parties output.
Without a stance to provide passive Enmity boost, WAR instead relies upon Unchained to allow them to temporarily amp their enmity generation, allowing for them to pull or to generate spike enmity without losing DPS. With the downside that it's not always readily available.
Warrior Rework Idea
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03-30-2019, 10:06 PMKaliseWarrior Rework Idea
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03-31-2019, 01:14 AMIzsha
Few things:
Provoke tied to ANY potency backfires. People will want to use for potency and there arent any competing uses for MP which brings me to:
I think you overlooked the MP resource. You have lots of ways to gain it. equilibrium(20%), Skull Sunder+Butchers (unspecified). Passive accumulation, (potentially any jobs party buffs like goad now) But only 1 spender that costs 20%, onslaught on a 30 sec CD and a 50 potency provoke (20 sec CD). I'm not seeing much point in MP on war when its only active use is onslaught and screwing up everything with provoke spam for damage.
Assuming you dont spam voke and just use onslaught (2/min), equal covers 1. Passive regen probably covers the other. People will ignore butchers 100% of the time the same way we avoid defiance for more fell cleaves. Except now we get defiance for just being smacked and can use both IB and FC simultaniously. Without the enmity on butchers, theres really no reason for it to exist as it would never be used without some seriously good things to do with MP that outweigh another FC. Wars will learn to get by using only the free IBs provided by taking damage and just spam eye/path for FC forever.
If anything this looks to be reinforcing the current play style of spam FC but now you get the bonus of tank stance, IB, and even more max HP from passive IB/SC gains from taking damage which results in a damage gain while tanking. Not sure if this was the goal, or if this is to design war as one of the 'MTs' in a MT/OT split role world.
Without any reason to use BB combo except to sacrifice damage for more defense (we know how that goes), Theres really no difference between tanking and not except you get occasional free IBs to use. It sounds like a have your cake and eat it too version of the current stance system, which, while effective, doesnt sound very appealing to me personally. -
03-31-2019, 01:53 AMRaldoPlease don't take away our one and only stun :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
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03-31-2019, 02:11 AMKaliseTrue. I was thinking about this while designing it. It's a tricky one, since, yes, of course, it being tied to potency and being oGCD means it gets spammed on CD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
Outside of course, the fact that PROVOKE doing that means you'd be constantly tank swapping and so fudge up mechanics a bunch...
I'm not completely bound by the idea of it having potency, I merely included it so as to have a bit of extra actual enmity itself so that long distance Provokes to say, pick up an add that's barrelling down to a healer actually does something (Other than turn it around for half a second before the next Regen tick rips threat back off you).
This is mostly intentional. Due to not knowing how SE are planning on overhauling the physical classes that never use MP with their removal of TP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
It may be that all skills cost MP, it may be that only AoE's cost MP (Simulating the current scenario where outside of specific high SkS builds, only AoE rotations actually use up TP faster than regen)
I mean, I could also make skills such as Mercy Stroke and Smite of Rage also cost considerable MP too.
True. Again, this is predicated on making adjustments to MP costs after seeing the direction SE are going with their TP removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
Ideally, having Butchers as an MP gain would need to make sense. But without then causing a scenario such as creating a PLD/DRK playstyle where only the MP gain matters...
Though, I think it might just be that I need to go back to the drawing board and redesign Butcher's combo secondary effects.
The issue is what... I dabbled with the idea of having another HP gain, but it felt unnecessary with Defiance and new IB... More damage buffs are ehh... Raw potency would be difficult to balance out with FC access...
That said, I do want to keep Defiance build up on that combo, so that OT WAR's can still maintain their IB and Defiance stacks. With there being a slight DPS gain to being actively tanking (Through the passive Defiance build up)
Well, it deviates from the FC spam of current, by making IB actually usable and not a DPS loss to access it (While making it defensively less swingy). With the general theme that instead of just having a 1 button wonder skill to give 20% EHP like Sheltron/TBN instead WAR just has a higher health pool continuously (At the cost of needing it to be replenished to have an effect)Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
In addition, there's less reliance on IR > FCx5 for damage output, because you no longer get infinite Gauge from IR. So that damage can be distributed throughout the overall kit a bit better (Of course, still weighted towards Gauge spenders) as well as allowing more variation in IR rotations.
But of course, Fell Cleave will always be a staple for DPS output, just like how PLD's will always be using Holy Spirit and DRK's will always be using Bloodspiller, they're simply the jobs highest direct damage attacks and thus want to be spammed.
As far as more damage while tanking goes... That was an intentional design. Since, personally, I think it would be interesting if there was more weight put onto needing to be actively tanking in order to leverage maximum damage output for tanks. For example, turning actively mitigating damage into DPS gains (Such as PLD getting access to Shield Swipe and regaining MP or DRK generating MP and Blood with Blood Price)
Like, irregardless of designs of being a "MT" or "OT" I think tanks should be incentivised to be actively tanking, even if the gain is ultimately more DPS. The major thing is to do this without then making OT's step into damage intentionally to boost DPS (Which is a thing that happened in WoW on several occasions)
Well, there may be some tuning needed here and there. But the general premise I was going for was trying to emulate PLD/DRK and their complete freedom to be in DPS stance all the time without losing access to any of their important skills, such as their potent active mitigation skills Sheltron/TBN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
Balancing Tank stances is always going to be tricky, when the meta of this game is literally to only use it for Enmity on a pull 99.99% of the time. Thus it's hard to make something like Tank Stance locked abilities (Such as Equilibrium's heal, IB and SC) actually exist outside soloing.
So, I thought about what if Tank stances were less punishing (By the nature of no longer being tied to a damage down multiplier at all). To which WAR still ends up being screwed over by the fact that IB and FC share resources and nought but removing their shared resources would make IB actually usable. (Meanwhile, PLD and DRK don't have this issue of multiple skills sharing a resource rendering one unused as a result. Well, outside of Clemency)
In addition, WAR's gameplay literally doesn't change between stances at all. It's still the same combo's leading to the same cost spenders. It's just, one does inferior damage. Also, one stance has a really good stat from stacks (Crit) and the other has a really mediocre stat from stacks (Parry).
So I thought about using a dual resource system to emulate their "Stances" and to create a unique aspect from other Tanks (Where DRK only has a single stance and PLD has 2 stances)
Of course, in isolation, it looks hella OP because it's "You get both stances at 0 cost"
Though, in my thoughts, I also envision a similar sort of boost to PLD and DRK stances to allow them to also "Have their cake and eat it". I just haven't gotten around to finalizing my ideas around their kits just yet. But a preface would be something like:
For PLD, stances become oGCD (Also, Shield Oath becomes default on, and it now uses just a single button to swap into the other stance) as well as adjusting ShO to also give MP when blocking (So ShO is good for regaining MP, especially in combination with Bulwark while SwO is superior for regaining Gauge)
For DRK, Grit has Blood Price as a passive effect. Grit is also oGCD to activate and costs 0 MP. Also, Blood Weapon can be used while in Grit and will deactivate Grit upon use (Essentially meaning you don't have to toggle off Grit and then use BW, you can just press BW to remove Grit)
It can come back in some form. It's just that its current implementation is a little lacking, especially as a Role Action.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raldo
Especially given the number of things that are immune to Stuns (Or become immune to them because lelHolySpam or DRG's using Spineshatter) - So I reworked its main use (Interrupting abilities) into Interject.
I mean, 70-80 skills could include something like Furore (From Tactics A2) that could function as an AoE Stun for example. (Possibly adding to Mercy Stroke and Smite of Rage as non-Combo high MP cost GCD skills) -
03-31-2019, 02:48 PMIzsha
I think my issue with this design is the incentive structure. On pld, you use a button to mitigate damage and you are rewarded by accessing more damage (mp and swipe). On drk, tbn rewards you for mitigating damage, and in grit anyway, are rewarded with increased damage. I have always thought that is the way to go for tanks. Give dps boosts for mitigating damage. Not the conflict now (war especially and drk somewhat) where you are rewarded for taking more damage due to stance locked dps actions.
Your version of warrior rewards you for passively taking damage and rewards you with mitigation and a smidge of dps. The incentives are backwards to me. Being passivly being hit shouldnt be rewarded, actively mitigating should be rewarded.
Random example, perhaps war is like rdm woth your 2 gauges and by threading the needle between rage and control (using defiance and deliverance actions in equal measure building both gauges) you gain access to inner release when they are both full or something like that. Maybe FC and IB now cost MP (to prevent spam)and give you gauge respectively. your combos give you mp back. When both gauges are full you get mega awesome IR. You are incentivised to use both sets of actions offense and defense and rewarded for not going to deep into 1 or the other.
Random idea, but I would like to see some way that being an effective tank actively doing defensive actions is rewarded, not discouraged as now, or just a freebie in your case. -
03-31-2019, 08:33 PMKaliseYou're welcome to suggest something for a unique WAR related mitigation that can then be used to turn into DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
Since, I personally struggle to think of a good example. Like covering the options I've thought about:
1) I thought about having the passive Defiance generation tied to Parried attacks (Similar to Shield Oath granting gauge on Block). But outside Raw Intuition there isn't any forced Parry chances (Also, including a "Sheltron" for Parry would feel too much like copying Paladin). As well as the fact that Parry reliance makes you gimped against casters because you can't parry spells.
2) WAR is thematically about having fat stacks of HP. So something like a HP variant of TBN wouldn't work very well (Since how would you tie the "Mitigation" bonus to such a skill? Especially if your health keeps getting topped off by healers?) - To say nothing about how the gameplay wouldn't be very unique (That, and it would literally just be saved to combo into Upheaval for bonus damage irregardless of incoming damage)
3) Using Inner Beast's current 20% damage reduction. Would again present problems. How would you tie something to this damage reduction? How would it interact with other CD's being used that provide damage reduction?
4) Should WAR randomly become a "Dodge" based tank? With the massive balance issues being apparent from the fact that dodge is 100% mitigation compared to Blocking (Which is ~20% damage reduction) and TBN (Which is 20% EHP) - Which would literally secure WAR as being the ultimate Tank and push out any ideas of a 2 tank composition because they'd just dodge every Tankbuster with their active mitigation.
An interesting idea. One of the reasons I posted mine on the forums was to get feedback and ideas for improvement such as this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
Though, I'm curious as to how you'd see this "Mega awesome IR" working.
Since, personally, I hope for it to not be like current IR, where it throws resource management out the window and devolves into 5x FC all the time (As well as then making up ~40% of our overall damage output so as to make the time between IR's feel like crap)
Also, I wonder in what scenario you'd ever spend MP on IB in this case. When you can gain Defiance from using BB combos (Which, if current potencies aren't changed, would deal more damage than Storm's Path combo as is the case currently. SP is only preferred right now because SP gives 20 Gauge vs BB's 10 Gauge). Wouldn't people only use MP on Fell Cleave and basically never use Deliverance combo's outside of buff maintenance?
Again, I'm open to suggestions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
It's just that WAR currently doesn't have any thematic defense mechanic that lends itself to being a rewardable action. HP Stacking, Lifegain and secondarily Parry. None of which really lends itself to a interesting, cohesive and most importantly balanced mitigation > Reward system. -
03-31-2019, 09:27 PMWindwalker
removing stun is a bad idea, its used on many big mobs with strong aoes, the only stun immune monsters are the bosses.
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03-31-2019, 09:58 PMKaliseBut how necessary is a stun specifically?Quote:
Originally Posted by Windwalker
Especially when I've made Interject work against all interruptible skills (Be they ability or spells).
Also, I've encountered plenty of non-boss stun immune targets. As well as stunnable targets (Including some bosses) that are very useful to stun for interrupting AoE's that end up hitting DR due to the nature of some DPS classes having stuns on some of their skills (I.e. DRG with Spineshatter Dive, MNK with Shoulder Tackle) or other such sources of stuns (Holy from WHM for example).
What specifically is it about Stun that is so vital, that having a single skill that is globally useful for interrupting skills, that is unaffected by DR and thus will always be able to be used to interrupt skills when necessary cannot compete or outperform?
Like, I get that Stun, and especially Tank's longer duration Stuns, can be useful for mitigating damage by locking down a target for several seconds. But if mitigation isn't a concern or if WHM is going to be chain stunning mobs with Holy anyway... How important is this effect? -
03-31-2019, 10:35 PMWindwalker
Stun helps alot when multipulling, Monsters like the big crab in Shisui is a good example "when it casts Flush" also the monster just before the final boss in Sirensong "when it casts Seductive Scream" and theres probably many more monsters like this where stun is a good idea to use. People are just too lazy to notice the monsters abilities and what they do. Stun is also used in pvp to keep a healer from casting spells for example.
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03-31-2019, 10:50 PMKaliseBut... My change of Interject would stop that crab casting Flush. It'd also stop that miniboss casting Seductive Scream. Only, it'd be guaranteed that it'd work, because the crab wouldn't become immune to stun when the WHM in the party spams Holy (When you pull that crab alongside the next group of octopus and shark thing?) and that miniboss wouldn't end up becoming immune if you had a DRG/MNK in the party using their stun skills for DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Windwalker
Similar thing would happen in PvP, where you could interrupt the healer casting spells (Also, due to the CD change I made, you could do it more frequently. If albeit, for shorter duration)
Again, why is STUN specifically necessary for these scenarios?
Just whining about how people are too stupid to interrupt these mechanics, when I'm literally making a change to improve the ability for the people who actually do notice these mechanics to interrupt them, does not influence my mind as to why removal of a stun is a "Bad idea"
Since, I am one of those people that does use the current Stun and Silence skills to deal with various skills, especially during mass pulls. Things like the big serpents at the start of Shisui that do the large AoE attack, I stun them out of it so I don't have to reposition enemies outside of persistent AoE's like Salted Earth/Shadow Flare.
The thing is, any form of interrupt would work against these skills. It's not a case of these skills being unaffected by anything but exclusively stuns. It's just a matter of, Silence doesn't work as they're not spells and there exists no other tool in Tanks kits other than Stun to prevent abilities. But I'm literally suggesting the implementation of a new tool to Tanks kits that will do the same thing, without needing to use 2 buttons in order to have access to an interrupt for Abilities and Spells. -
03-31-2019, 10:54 PMCabalabob
Why do all these job rework threads start with “remove all the role actions and give each job their own version!”. That’s kinda the point of the role actions, so they don’t have to keep making new animations for the same basic tools for every job...
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03-31-2019, 11:07 PMKaliseProbably because role actions are boring at best and superfluous at worst.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
Like, many role actions are literally useless (Break, Drain, Goad, Surecast, Foot Graze, Leg Graze, Arm Graze), or incredibly niche (Convalescence, Awareness, Arm's Length, Crutch, Eye for an Eye, Rescue, Mana Shift, Apocatastasis, Palisade, Erase, Feint, Addle).
With some actions seemingly only existing to create ability bloat (Protect, Peloton, Cleric Stance - Literally all 3 could just be passive effects)
There are very few Role Actions that are actually meaningful. Thus, with such few meaningful Role Actions, why not make new animations for the same basic tools? Or fit them in with the already existing Job actions that are completely useless anyway? -
03-31-2019, 11:21 PMKurandoI wouldn't throw Surecast in to the useless section, a good caster knows when to utilize this and can help to pass many mechs, even in Extreme/Savage content. Many casters get more damage uptime knowing when to use this, so far from useless, even before SB it was a very good action to take as cross role. The other actions mentioned are useless though depending on the content. Although the niche ones are not all niche, but mostly wanted to clear up Surecast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
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03-31-2019, 11:39 PMIzshaThe reward system has to be tied to something you can use often, so tying it to a 90/120/etc CD probably wont do. It would have to be bound to IB and IB must somehow indirectly create damage greater than FC. But if it is an immediate action (like say IB=Shield swipe proc) then IB just replaces FC as often as the 'proc' bonus is up and be reluctant to use it ever (even defensively) when the proc is down. Thats why the dual gauge system popped into my head. Sure, IB is weaker than FC, but if you use them in equal measure, you get access to lots of damage, in this case, the burst window. IR doesnt have to be the current form, it was just an example to make sure the damage return from using IB is greater than spamming FC alone. But it would require moving around the resources to access IB to have some type of buildable resource you spend on a large buff like IR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
So to expand slightly further:
(assuming all TP costs are removed so base combos are free)
* BB/Eye both return MP.
* All 4 GCD gauge skills cost identical MP (FC/IB/SC/Decimate)
* Using Deliverance MP skills build deliverance gauge. Using Defiance MP skills builds Defiance gauge. Can maintain Parry/Crit passives
* When both defiance and Deliverance gauge bars are full (X uses of each) unlocks Inner release. (Probably 2 or 3 each total as any more than 4-6 starts to take to long for this game, but can vary based on how strictly MP costs gate accessability)
* Inner release is some type of bursty damage buff that is greater than the difference of (FC pot-IB Pot)*X.
The IR window wouldnt have to be focused on spamming FC, it could be any source of damage as long as it is greater than the DPS loss of X IB's to access it. Some random ideas:
* Old IR: Remove MP costs. (Unable to build new dual gauge while in effect). Simple, effective. Boring.
* Old Berzerk: Large plain damage boost (unable to build new dual gauge while in effect). After building bar, would want to build up MP for effective burst window like old berzerk windows.
* Does something massive to upheaval
* Dual gauge cap Unlocks entirely new level 80 skill capstone skill. Feller Cleave. (half joking, but whatever the dual gauge action or buff is would probably be the capstone skill for mastering everything warrior with a cool quest to go with it)
Honestly i dont really care what the reward is, as long as it is greater than the cost of using IB over FC for a few uses so that it is actually worth using. It doesnt really fit the HP stacking theme, but fundamentally, we cant have the reward for defensive actions be more defense. It has to loop back to offense in some way or its DOA. But a return of the dual nature of warrior 30-50 quests would be a welcome addition to gameplay. Would love to see the quest line take a dig at the playerbase "you have been to focused on 1 side of the Force, time to return balance" comment in the quest to unlock the dual gauge reward action lol. -
04-01-2019, 12:34 AMMagiusNecros
Honest question. Does Warrior even need a rework?
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04-01-2019, 01:11 AMKaliseThat's probably on me. As I've never mained caster, I've never really noted any mechanics that were especially punishing for getting casts off so that Surecast was necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurando
Even in solo content, where I'm literally getting pounded in the face by enemies several levels higher than me, I've never really felt the need to use Surecast to prevent interruptions (They were annoying, sure, but nothing that made me want to bother putting SC onto my action bar)
My issue with this is what becomes of combos?Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
Like, WAR has 3 combos (Butcher, Path, Eye). Currently only 2 are worthwhile.
With this suggestion, again, only 2 become worthwhile (Butcher and Eye) for MP gain (Much the same as why DRK has only 1 combo and PLD only has 2 combos that are worthwhile because MP gain... Also, damage because, inexplicably the MP regain combos also have higher potency for them)
If the basis is still built on my original ideas for BB to generate Defiance while Path/Eye generate Deliverance. Then it comes back to a thing where people would only use BB combos to generate Defiance, they would never use IB and would instead spend MP on FC, even overcapping on Deliverance because then you're using 10% bonus crit chance FC's instead of using 33% less damaging IB's (Unless potencies were altered)
This is the underlying problem with shared resource costs, players will never want to spend their resources using the lesser damaging skill.
Be it IB vs FC using the same Gauge (Currently)
Be it IB vs FC using MP (Your suggestion)
Be it Storm's Path vs Butcher/Eye (Currently)
Be it Butcher/Eye vs Path (Your suggestion)
The latter 2 being competing for the resource of GCD's.
This is to say nothing about your suggestion doesn't do anything differently about making actively mitigating anything meaningful. You use IB to generate gauge. It doesn't matter when you use IB, it doesn't matter what secondary effect is on IB (Max HP, Damage Reduction, forced Parry etc) you have no reason to "Save" it for when damage is coming in and it's merely a passive reduction in damage if it happens to line up when you cast IB for the resources it generates.
Since this is one of the issues with WAR's design and theme. Very little exists in a way that makes active mitigation convert into something useful. The closest we have is Max HP synergy a la Upheaval's potency increase, but that doesn't actually care if we mitigate with that max HP (In fact, due to Upheaval caring about CURRENT HP it's actually better that we don't mitigate with that HP). Maybe we can also include Vengeance's retaliation damage - But again, this would come under just passively taking damage during the effect.
Some people have previously tried to think of an oGCD Inner Beast skill. But unless the skill is reworked to no longer deal damage... It would simply become an oGCD you used when beneficial (If costing gauge it would just be weaved in during IR. If free it would just be used on CD)
Even if you take WAR's current designs and themes out of the equation and look to its sources and inspiration, such as Berserkers, Vikings and Warriors from previous titles, there still isn't much there to use. For example, a stereotypical Berserker thing is to do increased damage while at lower HP values... But then it's just a case of actively not mitigating damage to lower your HP value for bonus damage.
Maybe there's some form of Counterattack (See: X-2 Berserker with Counterattack, Magick Counter and Evade & Counter, Tactics A2 Berserker with Counter and XI Warrior with Retaliation) that could work. But the issue is trying to turn it into something that cares about mitigating damage.
Especially notable is something that makes use of requiring significant damage to be mitigated like with TBN where you have to break that shield to get the bonus (Compared to Sheltron which you can block an AA that you don't care about and get the same DPS increase to if you used the block vs a Tankbuster)
Yeah... The trick is trying to make combo's rewarding to use each of them as well as making IB then also worth using over FC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
Both have their inevitable pitfalls.
It's really hard to make these skills balanced when they cost the same resources... Unless you do something like with DRG's FaC/WT where using one lets you then use the other with bonus potency (So for example, FC then lets you use an IB with bonus potency) - The issue in this case is if IB is still the "Defensive" skill and provides a defensive bonus, then it's still just going to be passive free mitigation while you just IB after your FC for damage while the defence is free.
I think that all classes need a rework to their level 1-50 skill unlocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
As far as the class as a whole goes... Something should happen to address the the essentially non-existence of Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone at end-game where Defensive Stances are rarely used.
To say nothing about my personal bias (With some other players more objective bias) in regards to Inner Release. My qualm being that it's not fun or interesting. While other's complain about how it works so well with buff stacking meta's because it condenses so much of WAR's overall DPS into a specific 10s burst window that happens to be ideal for buff stacking metas. -
04-01-2019, 01:12 AMIzshaI would say yes, but not really for war's sake, but for tanks as a role. War is the cause of some odd problems centered around IB and Holmgang that makes it hard for all tanks to ever be equal defensively because IB is designed to function as the 'always available' defensive option to pair with other items and manage fluff. Pld does this with shelltron to pair with CDs for tank busters and a shield in general for fluff mitigation. Drk does this with TBN. War does this with.....a lower CD on HG to free up CDs to both stack on the remaining busters and as fluff mitigation and an extra CD over the other tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
This puts war in 2 states. Deliverance tanking where the extra immunity use in a fight and extra CD makes up for the lack of a 'spammable' mitigation tool. But also means warrior in defiance is utterly beastly on defense as they now have that 'spammable' mitigation tool on top of low immunity timer and extra CD. If you remove the extra stuff (HG timer and extra CD) then defiance warrior is on par with tank stance Drk/Pld but utter crap outside by comparison in DPS stance. Or you have what we have now wich is more balance in DPS stance but OP in defiance. It gets more confusing when you add in easier tank stance for war and some ways to mitigate the tank stance penalty. It ends up being significantly better in some situations if you can leverage those things properly.
As long as warrior has 'spammable' defense locked up in defiance and pld/drk dont, we are stuck in this situation where warrior has 2 states of defense that somehow both need to be equal to pld/drk and thats just not possible.
Then theres the IR thing, which is more of a preference. I hate it the 1 button wonder skill and really enjoyed managing resources for the old zerk windows, but some people seem to like it. But any time a job is changed that happens. I'd like to see it changed, but this one is purely individual preference.
________________________________________
I must not be explaining it properly. In my example, you would never just spam FC ad nausium over IB because you NEED to use IB to unlock your most powerful action.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
Going from 3 to 2 combos isnt the end of the world to me. We already just use 2 combos. So might as well make it official. This still uses your framework where enmity combos are replaced with unchained, so instead of finding a use for the 'enmity combo' we just nix it. In this example, the combos are very similar to today and gain resource for FC/IB (MP). I'm assuming a similar setup to now with a maintenance buff like eye, and a second combo to use when not refreshing eye with slightly higher potency: ie butchers. New combos are eye for buff maintenance and MP. Butchers for potency when eye is up, also with MP (basically replace current gauge with MP)
So the gameplay is basic combo rotation similar to now that gives you resource to use IB/FC/SC/Dec just like now. The change being that resource is MP, not gauge. Using the MP costing skills (current gauge GCD skills) will reward you with your two gauge resources. IB/SC reward you with say, 1/3 defiance gauge. FC/Dec reward you with 1/3 deliverance gauge. After 3 uses of each capping out both gauges you can spend BOTH gauges to access a powerful action/buff. That action/Buff increases damage by more than 600 potency (asssuming same IB/FC potencies as now). So you WANT to use IB over FC 50% of the time. You would never just spam FC forever because that would be suboptimal damage as it would delay the use of your powerful dual gauge expenditure. (all numbers subject to change, but thats the framework)
This system would do 2 things that are the main goals I have:
* encourage balanced use of both IB and FC instead of 'one or the other' that plagues us now.
* Gives you flexibility on WHEN to use IB so you can use it defensively. Pld/Drk skirt this in different ways. Pld doesnt REQUIRE shelltron to proc shield swipe as it can happen via bullwark and passive procs so you can 'save' it for when you need it without heavy punishement. Drk does this by having TBN be functionally DPS neutral out of grit so theres no penalty to saving it when needed. This quick sketch napkin idea does it by requiring IBs in equal number to FCs, but no restriction on when. 3 IBs>3FCs? great. 1IB>2FCs>2IBs>1FC? Great. Pretty flexible to adapt to the fight. You also have a pool of MP that you can stack up to add additinal timing flexibility. In the same way you 'could' spam shelltron on CD, you can also save it for a while with the gauge bar, or be a scrub and spam it asap. At least you are mitigating something, but proper use still involves planning, which is a good thing.
The conundrum now is there is never a reason to use IB over FC because of all the damage penalties. This gives reason to use IB, but doesnt 180 the problem where you now ignore FC and only spamming IB. You HAVE to use IBs intermittently, so a good player will use that by optimizing IB timing in a fight.
Along with this, HG can get the properly longer timer and war wont need extra CDs over drk/pld as they now can access frequent mitigation. Tweak DPS numbers as neccessary so DPS is equal. -
04-01-2019, 01:54 AMKurandoYeah solo play probably isn't best thing to measure a role actions usefulness, as things like Break, Leg Graze etc (those CC type actions) generally work to full effect unlike in most duties where they usually tend to be ineffective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
It's not much Surecast is necessary, but it's a major convenience to use it. Most recent example I can think of is Suzaku Extreme, the boss does Refrain and Mesmerising to knock back or pull in the party, Surecast and Arm's Length (and other anti-CCs) negate the effect meaning the caster can just focus on damage and/or heals rather than having to reposition themselves somewhere safe. It's generally quicker to use/weave in Surecast than actually move, plus the cooldown is lower than the melee version so casters have quite a bit of flexibility with it. I'd say just experiment a little more with it as a caster (in duties), it's a nice little thing to utilize if you can so definitely recommend it. -
04-01-2019, 02:31 AMKaliseAh, I must have missed this part of the text. I didn't realize it was also protection against pulls/knockbacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurando
That would push it into the niche category (Wherein it is useful, only in the situations where enemies use pulls/knockbacks, which aren't a consistently used mechanic)
Ehh... I'm not too sold on the idea of just removing Storm's Path.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
Especially given that WAR's basic filler combo is already the least interesting of the Tanks because we don't weave oGCD's in as often (Nor do we have a DoT like Goring Blade to leverage into snapshots. Like how you can squeeze 2 Goring applications into a FoF usage)
I'd much rather work on a system where all 3 combos are situationally useful (More so than having an "Enmity Combo" that is for the most part vestigial. I think the only Tank job I actually choose to use an Enmity combo on is DRK because due to how Power Slash has bonus enmity as well as the DA effect also providing additional bonus enmity, it can mean that that one combo is enough to put me high enough on enmity to not care about it for the rest of a dungeon boss)
Like, PLD has Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within to weave in to their combos (As well as Holy Spirit to leverage while FoF is down - While managing MP for their Requiescat burst)
DRK has Plunge, Salted Earth, Carve and Spit and Dark Arts to weave into their combo (While managing MP. I know sometimes I find myself preparing for a burst window with just spamming Hard Slash > Syphon Strike to maximize MP gain so that DPS now is lower to make up for it with vastly increased DPS later)
WAR is just using GCD skills and maybe Upheaval if it's numerically worth it (I.e. Is HP high enough to make its damage per Gauge worth it (I.e. Are you above ~60% HP?)
I think it could be good design to have WAR put more emphasis on adapting their GCD usage in lieu of sticking a bunch of oGCD's into their kit to weave in during their gameplay.
I think the issue might end up being just how potent the reward is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
Since, you have to factor in the whole, Gauge spending aspect of the reward. IB + Reward usage isn't just competing against FC's 170 potency increase over IB (So 510 potency for 3x IB) but also competing against your FC's and general combo actions having a whopping 10% additional crit chance (With variable potency bonuses that brings due to Crit being WAR's highest weighted secondary stat) - To say nothing about the additional LB generation that crits bring.
So, even if the reward is strong... It needs to be able to compete with the advantage that basically current WAR rotation + permanent 10% extra crit chance (As opposed to now where it fluctuates between 5% and 10% due to FC usage to prevent overcapping) as Defiance's 10% parry is not a notable effect to weigh into this at all.
How so?Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
If it's ultimately a DPS gain to use the reward from capping both gauges, you'll simply spam your rotations and FC, until you've capped Deliverance and then spam IB as soon as you get the MP to use it until you cap Defiance.
Any saving of IB is a DPS loss as that is delaying when you get your reward from the Gauges, which is apparently supposed to be superior to overcapping with FC's.
You can't even substitute an IB during your Deliverance building either, because it will be a DPS loss to not have that full 10% crit chance bonus up as soon as possible. -
04-01-2019, 06:49 AMIzsha
The simple solution is to scrap the passive trait bonus. Passive effects are not exactly awe inspiring to start with. It frees up IB use and flexibility (which is far more important than a passive to play around), is one less factor in the damage buff from spending dual gauge (though simply adding adequate damage to the reward either in +crit rate or in any form whatsoever will win out. The only requirement is that the number for spending the gauge outweighs the cost of obtaining the gauge and it automagically works.)
It doesnt have to be this specific idea. It can be anything. The only requirement is that IB rewards you by indirectly increasing damage more than the cost of using FC indefinitely without simply reversing the problem to only use IB and never FC. Any type of system that requires you to use both to obtain a dps boost over using 1 alone will work. The simple solutions i came up with is just to require an equal number of each and then unlock an action that makes up the difference and then some. It sets forth a long term build up and release system that invokes the old Berzerk/IR windows of 4.0 that I really enjoyed. But any system that creates synergy from using both actions will get the job done. (assuming we are unlocking IB from tank stance and working around that new norm). -
04-01-2019, 07:41 AMMagiusNecros
Passives aren't awe inspiring unlike say Elder Scrolls Online because they may as well not exist in XIV since they really don't do much of anything outside flavor text saying attack power is this much stronger. Which is quite boring.
Shame really. Passives could be a great thing to set classes apart. -
04-01-2019, 09:05 AMKalisePassive effects are equivalent to buff upkeep. It can be a way to shift gameplay. For example, currently due to the passive being tied to Gauge, we want to sit with at least 50 Gauge at all times and don't really want to spend any until we're about to over cap (Either at 100 or 90 (If about to use Path))Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
Barely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
Now you get to maybe weave an IB in if its beneficial to do so instead of a FC. You still cannot save IB to use as a defensive skill like you can Sheltron/TBN because you're still going to want to get your Defiance stacks up ASAP to get the reward.
It's why my idea included the 2 gauges to begin with. Since, with IB using Defiance, it's a trade off, you lose its passive (In this case, it would be 10% max health and 10% healing received) to gain damage and max health (Which offsets the actual usage, and over time once getting the gauge spent back leads to an increase overall in HP)
IB is never competing with FC for resources. IB is never getting spammed whenever available for DPS output. You don't need to time things right as damage is coming to get the defensive bonus allowing flexibility in its usage.
My iteration isn't perfect and could do with more tweaks (Especially since how it ends up playing out is you alternate IB and FC as combo finishers...)
But the 2 major issues with trying to make Inner Beast akin to Sheltron and TBN are:
1) Inner Beast competes for resources with Fell Cleave. In most situations, Fell Cleave wins out in what you want to spend resources on. Attempts to change this will often either lead to IB replacing FC in terms of usage, or removing any flexibility in timing IB with actual damage effects.
See, TBN doesn't compete with Bloodspiller. In fact, it generates Bloodspiller resources when used correctly. This means that you don't have to decide to TBN OR Bloodspiller. You simply do both.
Same deal with Sheltron. It doesn't compete with Holy Spirit. It in fact gains resources for Holy Spirit.
2) Inner Beast deals direct damage. This means that freedom of usage results in the want to use it when available for DPS gain (Especially as it hits harder than any of our other attacks outside of Fell Cleave)
Again, TBN and Sheltron do not have this. Sheltron is close in that it creates an opportunity to Shield Swipe. But at the end of the day, TBN and Sheltron deal 0 damage unless you are using them to mitigate damage to gain the ability to use another skill.
This means that if you wish to rework a skill into being a Sheltron/TBN analogue you'd need to look at something like Infuriate. Wherein you use it to mitigate damage in some way and then it provides you with resources to use FC/IB. That way, the skill itself is not dealing any damage so you have more flexibility in its use, not wanting to use it outside of situations where you get it to generate resources.
The issue at that point becomes, what kind of WAR mechanic can be used to turn "Mitigation" into proccing Infuriate granting its resources?
As I've mentioned previously, it's hard to think of an actual mechanic involving WAR themed defenses. Unless they do a PLD and allow the Parrying of spells (Like they made spells Blockable) and thus WAR could become a Parrydin and get forced parry as a theme (Which is already shown via Raw Intuition)... Though if it was tied to Infuriate and it was still providing 50 gauge, that would be such a significant DPS increase so to make it so that you'd be spamming it for AA's from bosses rather than saving it for big damage spikes (Which is one of the notable things from Sheltron, its DPS gain is relatively minor, with Shield Swipe being only 100 potency and can be triggered naturally and the MP gain from Sheltron also being not particularly large)
It all ends up being pretty tricky to balance. When you have to try and make something unique (So you can't just slap TBN on WAR and call it a day. Even though TBN is the epitome of active mitigation, wherein its effective, it amplifies CD's significantly and it becomes a DPS gain when used against meaningful damage as opposed to if you spammed it against fluff), that is a DPS gain to make its use actually wanted, but not so big of a DPS gain that you explicitly spam it against fluff (Like boss AA's) or go out of your way to stand in AoE's.
I mean, here's some other ideas I've had for such a thing but have ultimately been unable to create a satisfying iteration for:
* Having the inherent ability where you "Counterattack" whenever you parry, dealing some amount of damage back to the attacker with then some "Forced Parry" effect (With RNG parries still occurring as well as Raw Intuition).
Drawbacks are: Ineffective against spell based attackers. Doesn't specifically target damage spikes and thus parrying fluff AA's will also trigger these damage procs.
* When healing yourself while injured (Lily generation mechanic of "While injured") you deal damage to nearby targets, with bonus potency the lower your health is. (Allowing IB to situationally be higher damage than FC)
Drawbacks are: Being healed/shielded actively reduces your damage output. You want to actively take damage to then heal it back up.
* A skill where you absorb a percentage of the incoming damage (Before mitigation) and then deal a counterattack for a certain potency (Increased by max health increases)
Alternative: Reflect a portion of the enemies damage back at them (Before mitigation). Damage dealt is capped at specific potency (Increased by max health increases)
Drawbacks are: Intentionally taking damage to deal more DPS. Fluff damage can be exploited for DPS gains.
Hmmm...
I think that final idea might have some usable design space, reflecting damage would certainly cause the desire to save it for hard hitting attacks. I think the question is trying to figure out where to place it in terms of cost, CD etc.
Maybe as a secondary Defiance spender? Where you then IB during fluff damage and then use this during spike damage? Perhaps as a sort of mirror to Upheaval as an oGCD 25 Gauge spender...
I will take some time and muse on this as well as prior skills and maybe design something. -
04-02-2019, 07:14 AMKalise
Update:
I've changed some things within the rework in the OP.
Highlights include:
* Defiance is no longer gained from taking damage and is now only generated through actions.
* Defiance gauge no longer grants max health and healing received and instead gives Parry.
* Butcher's Block combo no longer has increased Enmity gain, instead enmity is focused solely into Unchained.
* Butcher's Block no longer grants MP and instead gives a 10% DR buff.
* Gauge Spenders are no longer tied to combo's and are instead readily usable (Provided you have the 50 Gauge to spend)
* Overpower and Storm's Eye combo's no longer generate gauge.
* Infuriate reworked into Furious Guard, allowing for an Active Mitigation effect that can be timed for DPS increases.
* New Trait Fractured Earth at level 66
* New Skill Furore at level 72
* New Trait Deep Wounds at level 74
* New Skill Inner Calm at level 76
* New Trait Magic Counter at level 78
* New Skill Tectonic Fissure at level 80 -
04-02-2019, 08:14 AMTintStun stops an enemy for 5 seconds from attacking you at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
Well, it's not that necessary, but it becomes handy for example in Eureka when you fight against mutatet monsters 5 levels above you with the wrong element in defense...
Leviathan Ex, the add wich casts fear. Stun it right when it spawns and you have 5 seconds more to burst it down.
Stun the last boss in Qarn Hm when a party member is tethered, so the boss can't run after him and he doesn't turn into a mummy.
A stun is not only an interruption, but also a mitigation tool. -
04-02-2019, 08:23 AMRaldo
I like to use stun in dungeons when there's one mob in a pack that takes longer to kill than the rest (or one that's just getting killed slower). When it's near death, I kick it in the face for the long stun, then run off toward the next set of trash.
-
04-02-2019, 09:10 AMShurrikhan
I think I get what you're going for here, but honestly... the skills themselves seem to have been left lackluster to accommodate the dual-gauge, instead of the effects (rather than merely the resources) of the dual-gauge being really milked/made milkable to grant those skills depth. It's a good enough direction but something just feels slightly... bland, about it?
(Of course, a lot of that will come down to my comparing it with pipedream revisions of combos so that we needn't (technically or just effectively) hit 111222111333222111 etc.)
Not sure why people are hung up on the stun, as more mobs can be silenced and pacified than stunned, so this would actually make it more reliable -- though at cost of diminished AA damage taken, easier positioning for melee, and a secondary CD. But, honestly, I too would prefer to just see it as a stun, and then have stuns automatically degrade to silence/pacify when the target is stun-immune. I'd also prefer it again be called Brutal Swing, albeit in the same RA slot as Low Blow and, say, Riot Shield.
I don't much mind the Provoke change but at the same time, it, too, seems... a little off? I'd like to know more of the context of MP usage across all tanks, though, if I'm to judge it fairly.
I don't like Onslaught being pushed to a 30s CD. I prefer it be a damage-loss-unless-saving-a-GCD-of-uptime with good alternate enmity generation utility.
Furore reminds of when we literally had a skill called Barbaric Yalp, but more importantly makes me question the MP usage...
Equilibrium now seems a bit... weird? I would have figured it'd have more to do with equilibrium now that you have a dual-gauge -- e.g. by granting half the lead of one gauge to the other and then boosting both by half of the lower gauge's value or whatnot -- Or at least giving gauge-scalar HP and MP, even if that might make it a little less obvious or easily accessible/reliable. We seem to have that in spades, and I'd honestly prefer a few more moments of glory on Warrior over simple unvaried reliability. That's just personal preference, though, ofc.
Inner Calm doesn't seem very Warrior-like. There's doubtless something nearly synonymous that would, along the lines of a battle trance, but this isn't quite that. I'm also not sure a consumable ability is the best place for a self-HoT, even if I do like the synergy/anti-synergy of it? It feels like a lot has been left disconnected to the gauge systems that could be deepening them without making Warrior overly sluggish to accommodate changing situations. -
04-02-2019, 05:59 PMKaliseYou're welcome to offer suggestions to improve said skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
As of right now, I'm keeping IB and FC mostly intact given that as is, just being high potency skills makes us want to spam them over any combos.
Though, I kind of imagine that the 4 new non-combo skills that cost MP to be able to compete with them for damage. Offering a break in the combo spam wherein you fit in one of those skills as they come off CD/you generate the required MP.
Well, MP usage for PLD and DRK I'd imagine would stay mostly the same. With PLD wanting to use MP for Holy Spirit/Requiescat and DRK wanting to use MP for Dark Arts (Whatever form it takes)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
As such, the Provoke change makes the skill much more flexible in usage, but due to the precedent of MP being actually useful for DPS, it would be less likely to be spammed on CD for DPS/Enmity.
WAR is the only job that would have some concerns with MP being less relevant, though, hopefully the inclusion of those MP using CD's should cause enough contention for MP that you wouldn't spam Provoke.
The CD increase is mostly just to stop DRK's from crying about how much mobility WAR has because of the difference in CD between Onslaught and Plunge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Also, it allows for there to be a more consistent balance around anti-knockback skills (Especially if Plunge stopped being a DPS increase to spam and if Tempered Will was brought down to a 60s CD similar to the mDPS Role Action Arm's Length)
MP usage is to create a secondary dynamic and resource competition with enmity oGCD's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Without competition for resources with the likes of Provoke and Onslaught, these skills would simply be used as available for (Albeit very minor) DPS gains. As opposed to being utilized when necessary for their enmity (Or mobility). With Onslaught being moved off of Gauge as we now have increased competition for gauge usage with the higher costing Upheaval.
The secondary aspect is that MP generation becomes a thing. Since, you'd want to be trying to generate enough MP to use all of these MP costing skills on CD. Meaning that things like Refresh can benefit you, as well as leveraging Butcher's Block combo's (Thus leading to Inner Beast usage to dump Defiance) being a possibility to occasionally make focusing on Defiance a higher DPS gain than focusing Deliverance and thus Fell Cleave.
What do you mean "Now"? Are you implying that Equilibrium doesn't already feel weird in its current state of being TP restore in Deliverance and HP restore in Defiance? Thus having even less relevance to any sort of "Equilibrium"Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
The issue with such things is it will promote even more Fell Cleave spam (Via Deliverance focus). Since any dual gauge generation will be leveraged to maximize Deliverance to spend on Fell Cleave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
While the whole point of the Dual Gauge system was to remove some of the single minded focus onto Fell Cleave >>>>>>> All.
Inner Calm was designed based of the Tactics A2 skill of the same name. Wherein it is a defensive boost (In Tactics A2 it increased evasion... But that's not a particularly balanced thing for XIV)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Thus the idea of a HoT made sense. Calming the inner beast to regain life (As opposed to angering it and gaining damage)
As far as the consuming goes, I think it makes perfect sense. You pop a CD to soak a big hit, then afterwards, you consume it and gain a HoT to help heal up the damage you did take from it. Meanwhile, if there isn't a damage spike you can pop the HoT before you put up your CD's and get layered defenses to deal with constant incoming damage. -
04-04-2019, 03:46 PMCabalabobExcept you’re not suggesting remove role actions altogether or remove useless role actions, you’re suggesting remove useful ones and add them back in again for every tank job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
Why not do this? Waste of development time, the time they spend making another rampart and convalescence clone for every new tank job with its own name and animation could have gone into a new unique skill. That’s the whole point of these moves being role actions.
Same goes for your idea for anticipation and provoke. What it boils down to is remove it and give every job their own version. You also wouldn’t want to attach provoke to a tanks only ranged attack skill, that won’t end well.
I also question how much endgame you’ve done based on the role actions you consider niche. Like you don’t even need to be talking savage, even ex primals see use out of most of those skills like convalescence, awareness, surecast, arm’s length, feint/addle, MANA SHIFT (?!?!).
I won’t bother getting into the “useless” ones but I’d say they are the more niche moves. It’s more that the way the game is designed invalidates them most of the time more than anything. -
04-04-2019, 09:10 PMKaliseActually I am suggesting removing useless ones. That's the whole idea about only keeping the useful ones (By adding them back into the normal kits of jobs so that the Role Action section no longer exists)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
At the same time, one might have to consider how they're going to have to spend time messing with Role Actions anyway (Since, Invigorate, Goad and Tactician are becoming useless with the removal of TP) to say nothing about the unique skills they already had before they decided to replace them with default ones that use a single generic animation (Based on a specific class's prior skill...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
Or should we just do all development cutting and give everyone more generic actions?
Tanks no longer have unique combos, instead their Enmity and DPS combos are now role actions.
Healers have their smol heal, large heal, AoE heal, instant heal + regen/shield as role action.
Healers have their DoT and nuke as role action.
Mages have their first level nuke as role action.
mDPS have their combos as role action.
Since it's a waste of development time to create job specific versions of these right?
Convalescence is mostly redundant outside of Critlo fishing because healers already have enough throughput to massively heal Tanks up with their oGCD rotations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
Awareness is a minor mitigation bonus against AA's (Which aren't really a big deal) outside of specific encounters where bosses gain critical rate buffs (The only one I can remember off the top of my head is Shiva)
Surecast/Arm's Length are only useful when a boss does a knockback/pull and are otherwise useless. Given that knockback/pulls aren't a constantly used mechanic, they're niche.
Feint/Addle are niche because they rely on specific damage types for them to work. A boss doesn't do physical damage with its strong skill? Feint is useless. Vice versa.
Mana Shift is niche because the number of times when a mage can actually sacrifice their MP is very limited. Usually coming down to the most accessible usage of Mana Shift being on a BLM during their UI phase (In which they only want to spend 2 GCD's in). RDM already only thrives off of Lucid CD's and has potential Verraise MP to keep. SMN has some more flexibility due to Aetherflow, though again it depends on how many Raises they need to use.
But... Why have them if the game is designed in a way that invalidates them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
What does the existence of "Role Actions" actually serve? Especially during this post "Every Role Action Can Be Equipped" change (Where before, you had to actually make a choice of which 5 actions where the most useful for the upcoming engagement) -
04-06-2019, 07:07 PMSeraphorA lot of role actions used to be job specific skills that did similar things, they've already removed a lot of job unique skills to dumb down the system we have, so the animations already exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
All healers had their own unique Esuna for example, with their own animations, but now we all share the WHM spell instead.
We've lost variety in flavour, and WHM lost some identity.
I just hope they don't continue the trend by giving all healers 'Raise' as a role skill, or all tanks 'Unmend' and 'Flash' as role skills. -
04-06-2019, 07:10 PMSeraphor
And surely if any tank wants Awareness, its WAR, given it's mitigation skill that blocks from the front, but makes all rear attacks crit.
Anticipation is the useless mitigator, as it's nullified by Awareness because crits cant be blocked and crit is checked first. -
04-06-2019, 07:37 PMKaliseIt would, had I not adjusted Raw Intuition to not have the crit component anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
Since, it seems redundant to keep a skill like Awareness existing just so that... WAR can use one of their other CD's?
With the side benefit of maybe reducing some RNG spike damage from boss AA crits? (Whilst Healers are over there complaining that damage is too scripted and makes healing boring :rolleyes:)
Though I've already addressed Anticipation by talking about how at a later level, it would be traited into a more potent CD for each class (Raw Intuition for WAR, Bulwark for PLD and some new skill for DRK that is thematic and equally practical)Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
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04-21-2019, 05:42 PMKalise
Man... After looking up old 1.0 skills for another unrelated topic, I found some pretty interesting sounding skills that WAR's used to have... I wonder if I can try and incorporate them into my design (During another round of polishing...)
Berserk
Increases attack power and reduces defence with each successful attack.
Effect resets upon taking damage and fades upon reuse.
Cannot be used simultaneously with Rampage.
10s CD
Rampage
Increases attack speed and power for each physical attack against you and restores HP for each critical strike you land.
Effect fades upon moving or reuse.
Cannot be used simultaneously with Berserk.
10s CD
Enduring March
Reduces movement speed to resist all enfeebling effects. Allows continuation of Rampage while moving.
20s duration
180s CD
Godsbane
Delivers a threefold attack.
Consumes Berserk effect if active to increase accuracy.
Combo Action: Maim
Combo Bonus: Increased Critical Rate
60s CD
Collusion
Redirects enmity generated by target party member's next attack to you. Target must be within 8 yalms.
90s CD
Of course, these skills are complete jank as they were designed for 1.0's systems... But the potential to convert them into 2.0 skills is there... With such things like, both "Stances" being DPS gains to utilize as well as altering playstyle (While tanking you get attack speed, while off-tanking/DPSing you get just fat stacks of damage), some crit synergy and some cool sounding attacks (Godsbane sounds similar to Dream Within a Dream which is always fun to use). Collusion being an interesting take on Shadewalker too.
It was also fun to see that WAR's used to have a skill like my suggested Unchained which was a CD that increased enmity generation, it was just called Antagonize instead. -
04-21-2019, 07:09 PMPhoeniciaCollusion the other tank while you pull on WAR because WAR definitely needs snap enmity boost!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
/sarcasm
The ability sure was dope tho. lol
Honestly, I'd take Rampage over Defiance even if it still kept the initial 20% penalty. The initial DPS penalty later on gets made up for the higher attack power and speed, which would make for interesting game play. Definitely wouldn't take that Berserk though. :p -
04-21-2019, 07:59 PMKaliseGotta risk it for the biscuit though!Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Also, who'd get all the memes about dying... Dragoons or Berserk Warriors? :confused:
:p -
04-21-2019, 08:31 PMPhoeniciaWe both know RDMs pulled the carpet from both thanks to displacement having 130 potency and bosses being too big for 1 barrier-less arena to contain... RIPQuote:
Originally Posted by Kalise