https://i.imgur.com/OvbZQ5C.png
This thread is dedicated to a job inspired by some of the imagery and concepts of Vincent and his Chaos Materia. Specifically the chaos materia, which is a transformation mechanic Vincent has (quick copy collage image above of similar concepts). There are other concepts that can be pointed at that relate to this this idea like Devil May Cry's Devil Form especially Sparda via Dante's Devil Trigger. Also there is a game some may know from the ps2 era called Shadow Hearts which has the main character Yuri who uses demon souls to transform until sanity has gone (he's called a harmonixer in game). May also find some inspiration from Terra Branford and her Esperkin ability.
I've wanted a transformation job for a while, and have liked the imagery/idea of Harmonixer as well consider Blue Mage from FFXI taking similar lore points and had really liked it's lore - so here I think SE could make a new job. Keife191 started a thread kicking off with Vincent being a good example which inspired me to use him as reference, but because it had vampire in the thread title some people were taking the wrong concept (insert Twilight vampire) from it.
Blue mage in FFXI for those that don't recall the tl;dr is that you soul gets broken, an empty vessel prepared for monstrous energy, and given time and power you'll turn into a Soulflayer (Mindflayer, Chthulu like monster). Funnily the shattering of your soul is a bit non-voluntary, they explain what happens to you afterwards lol (you're kidnapped sort of).
I think the job would benefit with the dark like lore Vincent, Harmonixer, and Blue Mage FFXI had, so in that I'd suggest SE definitely consider it a more taboo job - perhaps even not allow the job to transform in towns to set the idea that you do these sorts of deeds outside of regular judging view.
For the attack and visual style I think of picturing Spawn from the comic books with his magic cape, Doctor Strange with his floating posture, and Bayonetta (like spawn) for attacks. In this aspect it might feel like a mage, but I don't believe it has to have mage clothing (may consider brd/mch - ranged physical gear). While not exactly what I'm thinking Scathach from Dun Scaith is approaching the concept.
If we're going vincent theme for weapons we could use dual wielding pistols or long rifle to avoid stepping on MCH too much, but I think I have an idea to really set the visual mood of the job and make a unique weapon for an MMORPG.
With a weapon type I believe Bayonetta visuals would be very cool (spells outside of transformation and also perhaps transformation animation inspiration). In bayonetta her power comes from her hair, which happens to also make her clothes, just to be clear i'm not suggesting players strip themselves naked to cast spells lol I mean specifically that "thread" and sort of visual attack aspect (not necessarily hair either).. :)
https://i.gifer.com/HR3F.gif
I think the weapon could be a cloak, like you see on Vincent, or Spawn (comic hero), and to really set the theme of the attacks like Bayonetta. I also believe these cloaks could be part of the lore of how the transformations are done, with each cloak soaked in monstrous energy (blood and magic) and while just wearing such a device is asking to be corrupted its not impossible for the most strong willed and wild to utilize. So these sort of living devil cloaks, a sort of monster phylactery, would be their weapon - and could really set a unique visual style especially for relics. For basic attacks I believe the job should have both basic melee attacks and ranged attacks (just a visual difference based on proximity), if you wanted to give them the Dante cocky feeling then when they're at a distance their ranged attack could simply be them pointing their finger at the enemy like a gun and firing off bolts of dark energy (picture Voldemort in the last Harry Potter movie and that dark energy and living cloak as well). Of course the cloak could form into other weapon shapes, kind of get to do whatever with such an abstract weapon lol.
Some vague ideas on the transformations/gimmicks:
In base form I think a mix of instant and short cast times spells (not black mage duration, a little samurai ish feeling) with again a sort of Bayonetta visual, so perhaps some of these skills are mid range and have a sort of physicality sense of coming from you (not long cast or as out of no where (fire 4) like black mage). If you stayed in base form only you couldn't compete damage wise with other jobs though (this is a transformation job! lol), it just offers some functionality and can be expanded on in the mage form (your damage comes from properly utilizing your forms).
For the transformations I don't really want to go into depth on potency and such because I believe SE will do what's best there but I might try to help suggest some transformations and gimmicks.
The first three transformations would be core transformations, including a melee damage focus, melee bruiser (solo tank), and ranged damage focus. Outside of that there could also be augmented self/mage form and transportation transformations like Druid in WoW has, which are actually pretty neat because they can be cast in combat.. (could restrict use when in dungeons though if that's a concern).
May also consider ultimate temporary forms like Demi-Bahamut with Summoner (temporary mechanics) and or upgraded versions over time (so expansions have something special to offer as the job upgrades, WoW has some "glyphs" that can alter the visual appearance of some stuff).
So you'd have at least a few forms:
1 Bruiser (semi tank)
1 Damage Dealing Melee
1 Damage Dealing Ranged
x Damage Dealing mid range void form?*
1-3 transportation forms, you could have one for water, ground, and air, or SE could bind them all into one. The definitely "coolest" option would be that there are three and are automatically transformed between as it makes sense (enter water from air = automatic change to form, and not just the same mount visual).
0-x ultimate, can be part of the job mechanic that for short periods you get a much larger wild berserk looking form. May be future content.
In WoW these forms allow the druid to play different roles, when they spec for it, such that a druid could truely tank or damage deal or heal - obviously FFXIV doesn't work like that with the talent tree not being a thing here. So what I think you could see is phasing between forms each having a unique mechanical style of gameplay such that you might feel as someone given many forms to combat. Preferably rather than the forms having timed lives I'd like to see mechanics that encourage shifting, such that while you could stay in one form after a certain period of time or actions you'll get a bonus in the next (as well as the mechanics of a form might be helpful for your content, like in tight quarters or needing speed to dodge aoes). This could be as simple as each time you use an ultimate in a form you can't use the ultimate build up skill in that specific form again until you've been in two other forms first, but there are no other negatives or bonuses (this is still a BIG deal, but if you needed that extra second for raid utlity or timing you get it). Ultimate build up skill/ideas are listed below, just concepts at least.
Each form could have a few gimmicks not only mechanically but also in terms of what they offer:
Bruiser - the "tank" form, here I'd suggest no mobility skills but a sort of mechanic to shrug off moderate damage on interval, such that you might be able to help pick up stray trash in a group dungeon but you definitely wouldn't be able to hold a boss. Or in other words you could hold a boss about as well as titan egi could (and can't take tank busters). Because this form is on a damage dealer I'd suggest the damage from skills in this form are actually enhanced when taking damage, meaning when solo this form is definitely viable even if you over gear the monsters (it's not just a "help me I'm not prepared/strong enough" like titan might be seen as, but it wont dethrone a tank ability to take damage or mean you can soak tank busters).
While used more in solo play this form could help if your healer is stressed and you know unavoidable raid damage is coming, your secondary tank died and your main tank needs help with adds (for a short while you could hold out), it may also help keep rotation bonuses (bonuses from changing forms, rather than sitting in one mode only if another form is one you can't use optimally for a specific fight mechanic).
Melee damage dealer - I think an interesting gimmick could be every attack skill acts as a short distance gap closer, giving a sort of ravaging clawing demon effect (enemies cannot escape you, but all your mobility is towards the enemy - going away from the fight is not a skill it has). I also think a skill that moves you to the closest flank or opposite flank if you're on one already, combined with positional skills would be neat. So you'd be clawing up and moving very effectively from side to side and rear.
When you leave an area with a properly built up combo jump you could lightly highlight that section on your screen only as a void wound (like left flank has a light effect on the circle) and once both flanks have been inflicted you could use a combo on the rear that opens the entire back side to any positional for the raid (True North applied to the backside, all weaponskills completed during this time have a slight potency boost). During an open backside I think greatly lowering personal cooldowns could be fun, so you become a nightmare of flurry attacks - once completing this though you'll likely want to switch to keep rotation bonuses (remember I suggested there should be a mechanic that rewards you for switching after a certain amount of time or actions, so good players are rewarded with diversity).
Ranged damage dealer - Multi armed winged demon - Glides swiftly and has a few peppering attacks, like one might think of with bard. Mechanic with conjuring bolts in hand automatically as a sort of ammo system (multi-armed), with movement and certain skills encouraging their return rate. What would encourage a player from firing them all off at once or waiting would be a few skills that do things like greatly increase recharge rate (or even make another pair of arms) and skills that for a short time increase/combine bolt damage (for example the increased damage buff could be a shorter cooldown, such that it would line up once with multi-arms ultimate skill and then another time without such that you might hold off on firing everything at once if the oGCD is almost ready). Comes with a few dash left and right attacks (could be one skill that fires off a void bolt and dashes in the direction you're currently moving).
Finally I think what could mix in with the high mobility is a sort void pylon mechanic, after a certain successful criteria is met (like number of fired projectiles), you can place a void pylon. The ultimate skill for this form would be to stretch out the arms and raise up each pylon into projectiles - what might visually feel like very large Red Mage Fleche skill or large lightning bolt toss from Dark Souls but void themed (fleche is the blue sword oGCD skill red mage has). Here however the amount of damage would involve the quantity of pylons placed before activation and their distance from each other (there would be a max distance, you don't need to go to the four corners of the map but they would optimally not be right next to each other). Around the time of completing this ultimate you'd be near wanting to change forms for bonus.
A raid utility could be from the void pylons providing something to the team, meaning your placement is quite thoughtful (they need to be apart from each other but also in key places for allies). This utility should ideally be different than what mage form or melee form offer in either an enemy debuff or team member buff (in general speak mage form offers light restoration utility and melee is damage for at least weaponskill based jobs).
Mage form - If SE really wanted to go all out I believe you could take the base form of the job with it's skill and "enhance it" with mage form. To keep the high mobility of the job in this form when a spell is cast the spell is cast from a sphere of void energy (created via another mechanic) with a longer cast time but higher potency (but it's not being cast by you, so you can move around). For balance I believe a mechanic could be put into place to build up how many void spheres you have out at once and the cast speed, when you're out of void spheres (because they're casting) your spells become instant but less potency than what is coming out of the spheres. Mechanic in this job could be casting different spells and creating more powerful variants by grabbing a spell and combining it with another.
For example lets say you cast a Shadethrust like ability (Scathach), you might grab another to slightly increase the radius (two barrel attack) but it'd also slightly increase potency and more-ever cause the second one to cast off instantly meaning more damage in the long run (rather than waiting for two separate off timed casts you accelerate it into one). Combing would have a cooldown. Alternatively you cast two shadethrust, void spike (picture Warcraft 3 Flamestrike but with FFXIV graphics), cast a room wide potency enhancement spell (increases ally skill damage a little but more specifically to your orbs), and use fast cast to get off your combine magics spell off before the first shadethrust vanishes causing an almost limit break like visual on the boss (and very heavy damage). So the ultimate from this job (as the other ones sort of have a "final moment of glory" before you should probably switch) would be building up to maximum void spheres possible and then combining it.
The mechanic to gain more spheres could perhaps have to do with being able to cast a spell in a target radius, causing your sphere to rush to that area and allow you activate one of your sphere emanating skills. Each emanation skill would cancel the other, but you could choose between light healing, light damage, or light resource restoration - the effectiveness of the placement and choice rewarding you to earn more spheres (so lightly healing 6 allies obviously worth more than dealing light damage to the boss, but if it was a trash group then light damage worth more than light healing).
This job's mobility wouldn't match the other two in speed but also consider an orb swap skill (the orbs show up in your list like a chocobo/egi ally might for easy targeting and easy to know what they're casting). Other fun mechanics could include chucking your active spheres at allies or enemies not only having an immediate aoe affect but also improving positional for subsequent spells. Pulse skill that causes all active spheres to double tap their current emanation effect and fire at target, they would also lock onto the target with their currently casting spell IF their current target had died (meaning the spell wont be cast at a corpse, you can redirect spells if you want - technically some line attack spells might still be okay to hit a corpse). There are a lot of ideas and perhaps some should be saved for a possible geomancer like job but just to end with one more, a chariot skill that causes the target sphere to allow a player to jump on the sphere and be whisked away to your location with a % mp and hp heal in the process (jump being the consent action, so its not on accident - the mp restoration being the main nice part and the heal being acceptable).
----
Sort of an aside but later in the character's development I think the transformations happening without disrupting movement (such that stringing a form into the next form feels like slicing melted butter) would be really cool, sort of a story point of your character reaching control of their ability and making it feel great to slide between forms.
----
Now obviously I'm open to whatever, if people have a favorite mechanic or something please go ahead and suggest it too! I just wanted to suggest that each form has a gimmick mechanically and a use in the fight, such that while a good void mage might be hitting the spells and transformation rotations while a great void mage would be thinking about which form would be best both now and in the future ("I know during this part of the fight it's really tight so I bet I can help the melee get off their combos as my melee form, and during this phase I can plan to be in my mage form to bolster our healer's" because if you just rush change forms you won't be building up each form's "ultimate"). Perhaps a skill or an element of randomness to make the changes a bit less linear and sometimes unplanned (the rotation for X boss wouldn't always be x y z in that order), such that you might get a special bonus in mage form that unlocks ranged form that you were just in, but normally you'd had moved into melee. Just another element to keep the job on your toes. So if you wanted to play in a bit of melee, a bit of mage with geometry, and a big of machine gun bard (or whatever they do with the job, or you suggest :)) then it'd be a great job for people who don't want to be stuck with one play style but want to play a single job in a fight (part of being a morpher like job is that diversity of playstyle, although I understand if SE reigns in the concept a bit for balance and consistent like-ability).
Ultimately though I'd be happy with just about any sort of transformation job and would just have some preference if it was dark themed (but if it wasn't I'd still probably play it). All the combat ideas could be scrapped - I just wanted to help add some idea tinder to help spark something by trying to add a unique weapon, theme, and a bit of a lore excuse on why they can do what they do (the blood and aether soaked cloaks with dark magic on them help protect the user from the madness, but only slightly).
Thank you for reading, please feel free to post transformation ideas you'd like to see - whether they be images or not, weapon ideas for the job, or whatever (they don't have to be dark themed, just my preference).
https://i.imgur.com/NW97cHT.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/TMdsknf.png
https://i.imgur.com/xI8VgK1.gif
Tl;dr: If you've played FF7 Dirge of Cerberus / know the back story of Vincent in FF7, played Shadow Hearts, Dante's Devil Trigger in DMC (and the other heroes who have that), then you have a strong idea of what this thread is asking for. Transformation job with some dark themes.
-
03-20-2019, 07:02 AMShougunJob Request - Dark Transformation Theme'd Job [Vincent, Dante, Yuri, Bayonetta, etc]
-
03-20-2019, 07:12 AMDualgunner
You want me to have to decide between Dark Knight and Devil Trigger for my Dante alt. >:CCCCCCC
-
03-20-2019, 07:14 AMShurrikhan
So, some manner of Wildling/Morpher/Voidwrought?
I tend to really enjoy hybrids with the ability to rapidly transform (ideally, far more viable to transform to or especially weave in than WoW's Druid forms), so at a glance, I think I'd be all for this. -
03-20-2019, 08:35 AMTheodric
I liked Shadow Hearts. It's such a brilliant gem of a game. I'd be all for something like this.
-
03-20-2019, 09:55 AMmanamoppet
Hmm... I'd consider it if we could do something like choose the aspect of the transformation - choosing between light and dark. Maybe if one could turn the "cape" inside out to do that maybe? Sort of like wearing a fur cape lined on one side with e.g. Amdapor Achamoth scales/Kuribu feathers for mage and ranged, and the other side with fur from e.g. a Coeurl and Behemoth for melee damage and defence increase.
Going by the categories above, I'd imagine it would go like:
- Bruiser could be Behemoth
The transformations could also come from other beasts of course.
- Damage dealing melee could be Couerl
- Damage dealing ranged could be Hippogryph, Waukkeon, or Zu
- Magic damage could be Achamoth/Kuribu, or later something else, like Apa, and Steppe Anala
Slavic and Norse mythology spoke about people (werewolves) transforming at will by wearing wolf skins, so if FFXIV were to implement something like a transforming class I'd take a look at those influences as well. Also, Norse berserkers were supposedly fighting in trance-like states, while wearing either wolf, bear, or boar skins. To go berserk for a berserker was considered akin to a transformation for the berserkers as well. So that could be used as inspiration along with the Trance used by Terra from FFVI as an ultimate finisher or LB3.
Edit: A full beast transformation probably couldn't be implemented, but if something like the aura effects from Dragoon and Summoner were used to indicate the transformation, it could probably work. -
03-20-2019, 12:58 PMShougun:D :D :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Dualgunner
*in devil may cry scoring/combo voice*
DECIDE!
To be honest Dark Knight could have a sort of enraged thunderous and void aetheric aura effect (like warrior's enrage, just hopefully mechanic different enough to warrant it not feeling like a copy). But in terms of transformations I feel like we could get a lot more mileage out of "dark transformation" if it wasn't bound into Dark Knight, which is the hope here with this job :3.
Also share picture of alt if you have/want :).
Yeah the idea is definitely to be shifting through forms and not just picking a route like you see mostly in WoW. There is supposed to be mechanical / strong feeling difference between each form but still fit within the narrative of FFXIV gameplay (like I'm not suggesting this one job can on the fly be main tank, main damage dealer, and main healer lol).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I could see some more fluent in and out transformations being suggested but as you see from the skeleton system I suggested it was mostly to allow each form to build into a cumulative finale, a sort of coup de grâce. I felt if forms shifted too fast it might be difficult to do that, but mobility was definitely a thought to give the job a sort of high octane feeling.
Melee being this almost zerg like relentless ravenous demon, the ranged feeling like some epic arcade mecha game with those lock on rockets and sweet strafe maneuvers, mage being more of a puzzle with a few clever movement tricks having to do with the void spheres but still pretty great pace in that while there would be heavy casting it wouldn't be burdened fully on you (like summoner feels pretty movement fast for being a mage), and finally bruiser would be more powerful the more damage/damage sources you take so it actually has justification to be used in solo play outside of trying to punch up through level barriers - an issue which titan egi suffers. Also when you take on a bunch of enemies at once that tends to feel pretty cool (lending to that high octane concept, the job should feel like you want to lean into the chaos - and the shifting gamepaly mechanics I think help gather players who don't want just one type of play style in one job), now of course I mention balance must dictate the bruiser form can't replace a tank lol but it would be a fairly impressive form if minor details in a group dungeon go wrong (like an add or two, or just to hold a boss for a few seconds while the healer raises but unless the tank 'vokes asap you're going to go splat).
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! Before that thread I refrenced in the post I would reference Yuri (Shadow Hearts hero) first because I was like "I want that, I want - that -" but to be honest Vincent is probably a faster easier reference for a crowd of people who play FF games, which is why I used it first for this thread's title.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
A duality system to mix up the transformation mechanics could be really neat, could also look cool visually as you go from one to the other! Of course personally I prefer demons, so the light side would be angelic, but I do think a coin mechanic could be fun to flesh out and improve the rotation (to keep it from being too laid out as "this is it, this is your rotation - don't deviate").Quote:
Originally Posted by manamoppet
One of the things mentioned in the other thread I referenced was Morpher, we could consider at the same time this job is released there is a limited job inspired by transformations but in the classic vein of morpher. Morpher in FF (just explaining to everyone, not specifically thinking you don't know) is like a Blue Mage of a specific monster type - rather than learning a spell from here and a spell from there the morpher takes on the whole aspect of a monster, giving them a lot more focused power but a lot less diversity power. So rather than just bad breath you'd be the whole honking morbolo with vine whip and all. So if you wanted some animal transformations I think we could see that in a limited job morpher, if this job is released around the same time it might also take away some of the baggage people feel about limited jobs (since this would be the main job transformation style).
Anyway just wanted to mention morpher could be an avenue for transformations too, although more likely to be limited or "advanced job" than just a normal job (advanced being a mix of normal and limited, which helps paint a full picture but also set proper limitations for party play).
Trance lore could be used in either job too, definitely - especially as it's a FF concept (like mist or crystals).
Question though, why couldn't a full beast transformation be implemented? In MMOs that happen to have transformation jobs they often do a "full (type here)" transformation. Of course in the general concept I'm going more void/monster than beast (not trying to make a druid per say), so I guess I might ask "why can't one do a full pomander of wrath/lust" (items from deep dungeons that transforms you into a monster temporarily). -
03-20-2019, 01:09 PMDualgunner
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...201&height=676
He's not quite Lv70 yet, but he's getting there. Went with Highlander to get the Dante beard going.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, a Devil Trigger-type job would be an excellent excuse to have a DPS job for Dante.
DMC5 Spoilers:
SDT is an amazing transformation in itself imo. -
03-20-2019, 07:24 PMmanamoppet- In dungeons and other party content a full beast transformation would probably impact personal movement speed because of coherence between animation and travel distance (like with the pomands in PotD, and HoH). Bard doesn't give movement-boost in-combat, and ninja is the only one with higher movement speed. Not sure how this would impact party dynamics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
- Full transformation could obstruct field of view, and the whole thing with Demi-Bahamut occupying most of the screen space used to be an issue.
- Transformation in-combat could be laggy, and have to have cast-time since the server and pc-s/consoles need to load/register the correct position of the new model. Some people may then complain they can't do clipping and sliding while doing mechanics since all models to be used for quick transformation would have to be in memory and ready for use. This could impact performance, as I know my laptop (at least) stutter during some raids with large bosses and many effects (mostly The Royal City of Rabanastre). The PoTD and HoH are hallways, and not that resource intensive compared to raids and more open areas.
- I can imagine some people would look at the Pomander of Rage and complain that their transformation isn't as powerful as that. Same with the potential of turning into a Red Chocobo.
- Lorewise I'm not sure how someone would differentiate between a Trickster Imp/voidsent and a player, but that could probably be sidestepped/ignored.
The core aspect of Morpher seem interesting, using souls in place of beast material. It would open up many more possibilities, but also limit the content we could do with it, like you said. If they can implement that mix of limited and normal jobs I could see it maybe working somehow. In FFXIV it may creep into other jobs' lore too, though it could be a nice opportunity to expand on the lore of soul crystals, maybe?
Sorry if I sound negative ^^; Glad you liked the aspect duality thing :) -
03-21-2019, 03:29 AMShougunHaha that's awesome, well done :D!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dualgunner
Hmmm no need to feel sorry about sounding negative, but may I suggest you've not presented a reason it can't happen but things that one must consider when making the job? In other words you've presented issues, not walls, and best solve issues with solutions :).Quote:
Originally Posted by manamoppet
For example in terms of size many other MMOs don't have this issue but they also don't let you play Godzilla, so the solution would be not to take up the whole screen lol. I do think making the character larger is reasonable and a good idea but it shouldn't become "where is the floor? I can't see the aoe markers...!" hehe.
In terms of movement speed the melee form would be fast in that their attacks act as gap closers, they wouldn't be hilariously fast outside of that. Similarly WoW and druid you don't see the cat form going warp speed even though it's a fast looking creature, I understand your concern but I don't think it will be too hard to balance/allow players to suspend their disbelief. As for the winged demon movement speed would probably be as fast as a ninja and they'd have a few strafe boost moves, but they wouldn't be mounted speed if that's what you're wondering lol.
For Pomander of Rage vs transformation job I'd suggest that WoW has some OP temporary transformations in jobs and druids didn't flip tables when it happened :P. Although I would caution SE drawing too many parallels to the pomander that makes people compare them actively. I mean your concern could happen but honestly I'd just be like "so what" lol, bosses regularly do cool things players can't do.. the feeling is actually common :P.
Transformation lag would just be SE's programming issue, I never lag when turned into a frog in fights or running a macro that changes my hot bars so I doubt they'll have issue. If they can't because of technical reasons then.. that's a bit sad but you're right we should be worried then (but I don't think we should be, as many other MMOs we can see there isn't an issue changing forms).
Lore wise they could even use a voidsent to be part of the quest lol, perhaps in the beginning a powerful imp thought it would be funny to topple a civilization by turning them into monsters - get some bloodborne narrative into there somewhere.. Those who barely survived learned how to harness and control this tainted power. So the beginning could very well be what you say, to ground it in lore we already know (another big time voidsent we know is the one that caused the lalafell to turn in the Scholar quest- tried to avoid spoilers but if you know then you know).
So imo of course you've brought up concerns - which is good (that's how you go about implementing stuff seriously), like what if it lags or what if players can't even tell what's going on anymore, but I don't think any of the issues are without solutions. Especially stuff like "find a balance between large and too large, and not all forms need to be large even".
I definitely think morpher could come into the game at a similar point blue mage did, except much easier since morpher isn't really beloved like blue mage -so making it a side content is actually probably a step up for that job (side content as in limited job). It could also become a main job but I think your concerns of scale and mechanics would become more real for morpher than even the job I'm suggesting, since if you transform into a Manticore but don't look like it (scale) then it feels a bit sad right? (But as limited content it would be fine to be that scale). -
03-21-2019, 05:02 AMHaxaan
I 100% agree with this, please make this a thing! I've wanting an Esper Transformation Emote, but my making a whole job out of it... ummm yes please
-
03-21-2019, 05:50 AMHigashikata
support but only if you can buy it from Hot Topic and Linkin Park plays the entire time you have the soulstone equipped.
-
03-23-2019, 03:51 AMShougunThat could be a pretty cool emote! Yay for making a whole job out of it ;)~Quote:
Originally Posted by Haxaan
Obviously if we had a transformation job hopefully SE designs the job and emote to not step on each other's toes though lol (if they were going to do both, oorrr the new emote is a reward for gaining the job!).
Also sort of a little off topic but to pass an idea off randomly, what do you think of job / gear changing emotes? Emotes that specifically re-visualize/design the appearance of changing jobs, a bit ridiculous but "obvious" example would be like Sakura from Card Captor lol (but I don't mean it has to be like that, just an example). I feel while it might appear minor that being able to change the visual at a core coding level and keeping a flow of animation between the two jobs might be neat looking and used a lot (as right now your character sort of resets visually, which means you can't really emote "through" a transformation - so this would be new).
Of course, we need so much edge that the RP community has to quarantine the job. Anything less would be a joke! :3Quote:
Originally Posted by Higashikata
Lol, I can imagine some of the macro skills when transformation.
AND GOT SO FAR
BUT IN THE EEEEENNNNNNNNNNND
(change)
IT DOESN'T EVEN MATT--
party: /vote abandon -
03-23-2019, 05:39 AMBright-Flower
A transformation based job might work but not one with forms for different roles.
It would probably also lead to a druid issue from WoW where new options for said forms are only scarcely added to the game. -
03-23-2019, 05:46 AMHaxaanI think Job Specific Gear Changing emotes would be cool. Though I feel like some of them could get borderline Magic Girl REAL quick XD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
-
03-23-2019, 07:31 AMCamiieWoL: Shining Crystal Transformation! /transform In the name of Hydaelyn I must needs punish you! /bstanceQuote:
Originally Posted by Haxaan
-
03-23-2019, 09:06 AMHaxaanI literally just spit out my water ready this lol. Thank you for that!Quote:
Originally Posted by Camiie
-
03-23-2019, 09:41 AMShougunYeah I avoided going the multi-role WoW Druid route (which has true tank, healer, and dd options) because I saw it as a /massive/ barrier to making a transformation job, FFXIV doesn't have the talent tree system that helps support Druid in WoW. The other issue with Druid in WoW though is that through the talent tree you tend to make one transformation fantastic and the others are very "eeeeeeh...... okey.....", was hoping here with this job that we'd avoid that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright-Flower
Of course I did intend for each form to feel different and offer something different in "sub-role" but within the same archetypal role (damage dealer). Like one might feel from AST's different modes or SMN's egis (except for the transformation job it'd be even more key to their design, and used more frequently than say a SMN who usually sticks to a specific pet for a specific scenario).
Anyway I was not sure if you were making a general comment or thinking I meant this job could multi-role (healer, tank, damage dealer). I thought there might have been a misunderstanding when I said bruiser (tank) but I strictly did not mean it as in "can tank like Paladin", although I did mean it as "unusually sturdy for damage dealer, at least for a short while".
I mentioned morpher a little bit later in the thread as a job that could be limited and act as many roles though, if we wanted to see that for whatever reason. Great thing with that being it could be fully broken, wacky scale available (doesn't need to be designed for seeing the ground lol), and other nonsense; although, I feel morpher isn't a beloved job and so a great candidate job to be limited I suggest SE approach limited concept with far more caution than they did with Blue Mage. To note for SE though is that I'd like to see a transformation job, a main job, so just making side content wouldn't scratch the itch I was trying to get at here (but I could see morpher being fun side content as well, just not replacing my desire for main content transformation).
LOL. I had to look that up. Oh boy XD.. That was something to watch haha. So long as the animations don't become too obnoxious it might be okay to at least have a small handful of options, but of course SE if they did make them they should be careful it doesn't feel out of place for the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haxaan
-
03-23-2019, 02:47 PMShurrikhanEeeeeeh, if you believe the Blizzard devs, talent trees have only been holding back Druid's multi-role functionality (and frankly, I'd well believe it, at least given how poor their talent designs have been for the last 4 packs or so). Since Cata, though, they haven't forced any real specializations of forms within any given role, as each role gets its own talents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
-
03-23-2019, 03:44 PMShougunQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
That's interesting, did they explain how it would work? I mean I see the talent system works by preventing druid from being able to be all roles on the fly perfectly, which would obviously be an issue. I can imagine a few ways that might work without a tree but would still entail restrictions of some type, am curious what they, or you thought would work better. Since I'd like to see this job use many forms in content (while being balanced) and not just build for one form I didn't go for full multi-role tank, healer, damage (although I do want each form to feel different and offer different features to the team/self). -
03-23-2019, 06:47 PMShurrikhanThe talent system itself remained. It just was no longer a talent tree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
Prior to the introduction of the Guardian (i.e. Tank) specialization for Druid, you had to lose a bit of utility via Balance or Restoration on your Tank to weave heavy damage by switching to cat form when not actively tanking or snap-tanking capability on your Cat DPS (i.e. taking more Feral spec than fit your pure role). Once they split the roles into two separate (albeit redundant) specs, Feral and Guardian, the alt-form (obviously more lucrative than other forms except to raids) no longer shared customization cost with other minor utilities. At that point you had to swap to the specialization (and gear) of the role, but there was no sacrifice in your customization itself (though also less simultaneous capacity guaranteed to the multi-role-potential melee spec). Thus, your choices were made more straightforward and later were tailored to each of the four specific roles (up from the usual three possible specs on other classes -- apart from DH's two). At this point there's no talent purely shared between what used to be the package deal of Cat/Bear forms.
This is all of literal relevance to your intent, however. Essentially, your design comes down to the like of elemental or pet-choice weaving, except that you can't cheapen out and just classify things according to flavor text (elements without inherent mechanics), need to be as absolutely fluid as possible, and where the utility provided (passively, especially) with each element has large balance implications.
My best guess: it'll come down to rotational effects upon your aspects/forms, with variable/versatile cooldowns that can compensate for whatever ramp-up that would demand normally. -
07-10-2019, 11:57 PMShougun
Minor Spoiler Warning for Shadowbringers, has to do with a minor-main character enemy (doesn't really mess with the plot if you know, but if you wanted to be surprised to combat and such, a "ooo" "aaaah", then consider caution for the following). A non-spoiler hint if you already know this minor spoiler would be if you've come back Eulmore/met the dwarves (dwarves not a spoiler because they were in the live letter lol).
Ran'Jit:
https://i.imgur.com/KdFyGJA.png
This character uses his minion and absorbs them to both change appearance (equipment really) and gain a host of new skills, while not really a morpher job as described in OP and I would love to see it taken farther (as Dualgunner and I were sort of going off on how cool the devil trigger in DMC is lol), I still felt it akin enough to be like "oh hey look, that's neat and sort of morpher like". Might say its especially morpher like if you take FF morpher at a basic description of "uses souls of monsters" :3. So this guy's morphing slight appearance is in that vein of desire of the thread but the end desire is and would still be a complete change like the Dante DMC, Vincent FF7, and etc examples.
Also might add that the character has a bit of beastmaster elements so they may be used in that topic as a talking point too, but this thread really isn't about that job :p.
Definitely was thinking something similar~! Although of course I mostly just throw stuff out as basic concepts since I don't think SE would or should just 1:1 take an idea (trying to encourage/inspire/spark something :D). Though as what you described I would love it if SE tried to make a job like this have a shifting/dynamic elements to their rotation with value for each form, instead fixed choices or a series of shape 1, 2, 3, rinse and repeat. How fitting for a shape shifter to have a shifting rotation ;).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
-
01-06-2021, 04:57 PMRymi64
Using what Ranjit does as a basis they could actually make it work though the idea's you had lends it self better to a limited job because this would be "too complex" for normal play XD. And with yoshi-p being the producer for ff16 as well as clive having those abilities it could defiantly happen (God i hope it happens). If they were to make it a full job they could have it be like ranjit but instead you have multiple beasts you use in your rotation. The beasts work with the automiton queen a.i system so you want to wait till the last minute and activate the big move. After you activate the big move you transform (change gear like ranjit? idk) into the beast and do your combos in that form for a bit, maybe the form gives some special buff or something, until the end of that form to do a big attack again, change back and move on to the next beast. Could have it be random which beast you get of the 3 when you come out of the form but if you let the beast run out by itself without transforming it cycles to the next beast in line (Idk just spit balling an idea). I cant really think of a weapon they could use. I would say scythe while cool could go with something more original like a knife and a catalyst like rdms.
-
01-06-2021, 06:07 PMSeraphor
I think this would work better as a limited job too. If only because of the variety of transformations.
As a normal job you'd get 2, maybe 3 options tops, and then everyone would just look exactly the same. In a game that's all about glamour and character customisation, everyone of a certain job looking exactly the same doesn't seem like it fits in this game at all.
But as a limited job, it could have multiple forms with multiple effects. -
01-07-2021, 04:48 AMShougunI think it would be fine for normal play assuming each form has less buttons than a normal job and they utilize a system similar to dancer to or other button replacing skills (so that you can keep a bar that isn't 50 buttons). Of course mixed with an underlying implicit or explicit system that encourages rotation (which I think would be better if it wasn't fixed into a perfect repetition). The rate of form changing can be designed around the gameplay feel, if you stay longer in one form till switching you probably should have more skills per form if you quickly change forms (not hyper quick but like 5-7 minutes one form vs 1-3 minute) then you obviously need less skills per form. Also as we talked about in the other thread you have the potential for mix skills, or skills that exist outside of forms which can help with that gameplay feel (for example if 5 skills changed at a form shift I don't think it will melt anyone's brain, that wouldn't already have their brain melt if zero skills changed and they were asked to play their job optimally).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rymi64
For the added simplicity I've not bothered with any full bred multi-role which I think would be extra chaos (in a normal job at least), with peering at SMN's or RDM's homework a bit (placing it near them in the damage and diversity), but with a bit more step-lock action to access hybrid (unlike SMN which is more open-book, minus the demi which is more step lock, like SMN always has access to raise for example (red mage being even more open-book), and I'm not even suggesting this job needs or should have a 'raise', so the job's diversity potential is high but changing forms wantonly wouldn't produce the best DPS results which helps balance itself for whatever actual support is added).
Part of a transformation job is indeed a similarity look, as you have in WoW with Druid and sort of with Demon Hunter - it's just part of the job, so I know you listed it as a con but it just seems par the course. If you want that type of job you get that type of issue- I still want THAT job as a normal job (or both, limited and normal).Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
Going PF exclusive type content, only, would be a loss to me, not a gain- like a serious disappointment. If they made it so you could practically do whatever you wanted in old content, on your own, I might have value in it and be a bit "bummer, but okay", but if it goes the same design style as is our current blue mage.. God.. Please no. I'd rather never see the job exist, personally (aka imo). I did not enjoy the content as it was created nor the concept as delivered - as separate entities I've issue with, and do not want to have something I want go into 'that' sort of design style- again . . . which if not clear I use personally / imo because if other people like that they're allowed to (because of course lol) but if for example a dev read this and was like oh "yeah lets do a Vincent job" and then read someone say limited I want to be the person being say both or normal please I did not make the thread because I wanted to see another pf exclusive job and would be a bit crestfallen if not a lot by that choice (normal would be amazing, solo focused limited would be either neat or potentially amazing depending on effort but pf exclusive limited would be a bit soul crushing especially if they make it as they did blue mage, which this is not the blue mage thread but I obviously didn't like what and how what happened to the job [ 60 - 70 spells on blue mage are far more exciting though, just to note a positive for blue mage]).
Also just to add, not sure if you read it, but there was details on how to add customization to the forms via the weapon choice. I picked an armor-like weapon as the base concept because I felt it could flow into the other parts of the job's forms. The example I've given a few times is if you imagine a scarf like 'weapon' that then you transformed into a wolf, you could absolutely picture that scarf still on the wolf (and it would look cool). There would need to be some thoughtful designs of weapons models to add efficiency in design to prevent over design requirements, but given thought on the outset I think you could absolutely achieve relatively low added extra cost yet have a transformation job that comes with customization of appearance to some extent. You could also add some easing up, on top of pre-thought designs, in that perhaps only the AF and Relics will receive extra attention (where as more general information passes for normal items the AF or Relic would get a bit more). Obviously more work than say making a black mage staff, but other jobs occasionally get some extra love like Samurai scabbards or SMN when they feel compelled to add extra summons. Such an example might be if there were X shapes of the gear piece in one form the shape of the gear piece and color translates into your form, meanwhile another form that might use a sword might take the texture pattern and apply it to their armor and sword (with colors being represented), or a relic may have some cool back story about which soul, emotion, or energy type is imbued in it and so then your forms have a unique shift outside of the standard. You could go more or less mild from there, with the simple side still being more than most MMOs with transformation jobs offer anyways, but if more (especially if you plan with forethought so the extra cost is mitigated some) would be awesome too.
I think you could have 4 combat forms without too much 'can't be done', though I'd probably shoot for 3 unless money and time was falling out of my ears. With melee, ranged, support, which I don't think should be so clear cut as that (like one form may be ranged with a certain type of support), but that already easily prepares the concept of 3 without too much effort in terms of concept (depending on number of skills of course balance and time to design would be different, 3 forms with 20 skills each would be "a lot" of effort, but I'm not thinking that). Of course on top of your combat forms you can readily add side forms for movement (like WoW has water, land, and air forms).