Skillchains and bazaars

Did developers ever discuss adding skillchains or bazaars in XIV? :confused:

Aaah, another "I want FFXIV to be FFXI 2.0" thread?

Disclaimer: I've never played FFXI, so I had to look both those things up.

I might have missunderstood certain parts here, but skillchains sound a bit like our combo-system?
So even if the devs should have never discussed this, I can drop my two cents here on possible reasons for that:
1) Why add a second system when the current combo-system already keeps you busy enough? Depending a little on your job, your rotation already is fairly complexe.
2) How would the skillchain system work in harmony with our current combo-system that we have atm?

From what I understand about skillchains, they wont work well within FFXIV, because the combat here works different from all that I know. The focus is much more on complexe boss-mechanics that require you to pay attention and react to them and still hitting a button every 2 seconds instead of every 2 minutes.
Depending on your job your rotation is already fairly complexe and requires you to absolutly know every second what button to hit next. As you may have noticed FFXIV also doesnt allow for any real customisation in regards on how to play a given job - skillchains sound a bit like they did exactly that? In the intrest of keeping all the jobs balanced, they probably rather keep them static though. And seeing how they treated bluemage I dont see them change that (= a more "free" playstyle comes at the cost of being a limited job).


In regards to the "bazaar"... from my search I guessed you're refering to being able to buy a number of items of your chosing at the marketboard?
Well, given that this game has been running with our current market system for almost 6 years now (I dont know about 1.0), I guess its safe to assume that they have no desire changing that but instead keep this system.

Bottomline: This isnt FFXI. FFXIV works different in some ways and I think thats a great thing because this way everyone can pick the option they prefer - want a system thats like FFXI? Play FFXI. Want a system that works like FFXIV? Play FFXIV.

Skillchains were a mechanic in FFXI which was the inverse of FFXIV's system. In FFXIV, you start out with 1000 TP and using Weapon Skills on GCD costs TP, which regenerates naturally at set intervals. This system used to mean eventually melees would run out and would require things like Invigorate or Goad to replenish it, but in 4.0 this was obviated. Now TP is just mean to penalize multiple deaths in quick succession.

In FFXI, you started off with 0 TP, and auto attacks (which were 1.5 - 6.5 seconds in length, depending on haste buffs/equipment/weapon type) accrued TP dependant on their delay, with heavier weapons dealing more damage but accruing more TP (and sucked especially for heavy weapons because accuracy capped at 95%). At >100% TP you could use a Weapon Skill, which dealt a consider amount of damage to targets your level or below (most could 1-shot them), but with the right gear and buffs could one-shot or close to one shotting mobs 6-7 levels above you. A melee that used a weapon skill after one preceeding it sometimes proc'd an extra explosion of elemental energy (depending on the skillchain properties of the 2 weaponskills used in the sequence).

You had about 2 seconds to use your WS to proc the Skillchain explosion after a WS that proceeded, so melee needed to coordinate and watch their co-melee. All weapon skills that hit the target (except for a few oddballs) had properties. You could even chain 3-4 weaponskills together and create more complex skillchains procing off of lower level ones. The skillchain explosion dealt damage equal to 50-300% of the weapon skill that activated it, in elemental magic damage (lv1 SC could be any of 8 elements, lv2 SC were dual-elements, Lv3 SC were 4 elements). Additionally, mages could deal vastly increased damage in a short 3-sec window after a skillchain if the spell corresponded to the element of the skillchain, and debuffs would gain increased chances of sticking as well (magic resistance was a thing).

This was a way for melee and mages to synergize, and on mobs that had vastlyyyy high defense (like bosses/raids), this was a huge boon, because melee was often heavily resisted but magic was usally not. For example, fighting Nidhogg in XI, a DRG could use Wheeling Thrust for 700 damage (loldrg), and a SAM could use Tachi: Kasha for 1200 damage, which would create "Skillchain: Light", dealing an extra 1200 damage (if the order was reversed, it would only have done 700 because which ever WS closed the skillchain is the damge that the skillchain does--so you had "opener/closer melees". Because "Light" was a level 3 skillchain comprising of Lightning/Fire/Wind/Holy, any spells of those elements would be buffed. So right when the DRG used Wheeling Thrust, you'd have 5-6 BLMs begin casting Thunder IV (which was about 7-s cast). When the SAM used their skill, the skillchain would proc and the BLMs would have finished casting and then you'd have a volley of 3000 damage Thunder IV's go off. Then this cycle would repeat as soon as the DRG and SAM regained >100% TP, which was about 7-10 autoattacks (so about 20-40 seconds, depending on haste/accuracy/double attack procs/buffs that increase TP gain like Jump or Meditate, etc).

Anyway, because in FFXIV each melee has their own proc and combo system, and some synergize well in terms of debuffing the target to slashing or giving everyone crit buff, etc, there's no need for a skillchain system. Ranged refresh TP/MP, casters reduce magic damage, melee reduce physical damage, tanks reduce oncoming damage, healers shield and buff. Each role synergizes with another already. Since FFXI jobs were mostly independent, the only way they could synergize is with SC/MB.

As for bazaars, we had something like in 1.0 but it wouldn't work in FFXIV now. Think about it....if you saw something you liked in someone's bazaar and they teleported away, you can't buy it. People are popping in and out of existence with joining duties/raids and porting to aetherytes, not like in XI where transportation was almost always relegated to footing it (no mounts in dungeons or in-door areas). So they gave us retainers which are static bazaars that don't move that people can visit and buy items directly from them, while we're out adventuring. We also have market board which is vastly superior to the FFXI auction house because the price of the items listed is not hidden and we don't have to bid to win it, moreover we can search for the item we want...in FFXI you had to go through a series of menus and there was no way to search by typing in a search term.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Aaah, another "I want FFXIV to be FFXI 2.0" thread?

Disclaimer: I've never played FFXI, so I had to look both those things up.

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so unfortunately because you never played XI or XIV 1.0 you have a slight misunderstanding of how skillchains and bazaars work. FYI when final fantasy XIV first launched we had skill chains and bazaars. Bazaar are where you set up items for sale on your character so as you run around the world other people would see that you have stuff for sale and buy them directly from you as opposed to posting it on market board. Skillchains on the other hand are essentially combos of weapon skills between players as opposed to one player chaining one weapon skill to another you would have let's say paladin uses a weapon skill and then a dragoon uses its weapon skill and they would create a chain together which would do sometimes double or sometimes quadruple the amount of damage that the individual weapon skills of would have done on their own you should look up a YouTube video to see exactly what I'm referring to reading about it is nice but it doesn't give you the visual or fully explain it the way a video might if you see it in action

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Originally Posted by Allistar

so unfortunately because you never played XI or XIV 1.0 you have a slight misunderstanding of how skillchains and bazaars work. FYI when final fantasy XIV first launched we had skill chains and bazaars. Bazaar are where you set up items for sale on your character so as you run around the world other people would see that you have stuff for sale and buy them directly from you as opposed to posting it on market board. Skillchains on the other hand are essentially combos of weapon skills between players as opposed to one player chaining one weapon skill to another you would have let's say paladin uses a weapon skill and then a dragoon uses its weapon skill and they would create a chain together which would do sometimes double or sometimes quadruple the amount of damage that the individual weapon skills of would have done on their own you should look up a YouTube video to see exactly what I'm referring to reading about it is nice but it doesn't give you the visual or fully explain it the way a video might if you see it in action

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Thanks for the explantion!

I have to say that it still sounds like something that would not work in our current game, which has different systems in place to deal with those "mechanics".

I see little benefit from not using a marketboard to buy things to be honest. It sounds terribly inconvenient... We can set up retainers in our yards and sell gear using the mannequins now, but I doubt that many people use those features for "buisness"-purposes and focus on the decorative element instead (I know that I do that - and that I would never run around in a housing area, trying to find a retainer that sells the item that I need right now).
I dont even see a benefit in adding this as a system second to the marketboard in some way - I just dont think that its something that people would actually use. I bet that even those who might request it now, would use it to buy two or three items and then return to the market board.

And from what I read about skillchains now... nope, still dont work within FFXIV. One of the main features of this game is supposed to be that you can clear any content with any combination of jobs. Yes, we have some meta-stuff aswell and yes, some syngery between certain jobs exist (like how you absolutly want to take a dragoon with your when you have a bard/maschinist), but this sounds like you depended way more on having the right combination of jobs. Just not gonna work here.

And no matter how the skillchain-system worked in detail, its clear enough to me that it differed a lot from our battle-combo-system and couldnt just be integrated into that, but would rather require an overhaul of the whole basic gameplay of FFXIV.
And why would the devs do that? Why SHOULD the devs do that when our current system is working? Hint: "Because I liked skillchains better" isnt a valid answer - or well, it is a valid answer but one that has an easy solution: Go play FFXI then...
(Last part not directed at you, Allistar, more a general thing... sorry, I'm getting a little bit annoyed at requests that basically seem to aim at changing FFXIV into FFXI. I like FFXIV - mostly - the way it is. And if someone likes the basic gameplay of FFXI, they may play FFXI. At least thats my humble opinion. I'm all for taking ideas and concepts from other games and adjust them to fit this one - but I have... issues with people just "requesting" things to be like FFXI without thinking how and IF they could fit into the basic gameplay of this game at all...)

Skillchains wouldn't work quite as well in FF XIV as it currently stands. Bazaars I wouldn't mind seeing again though. They were neat in FF XI. With the MB and retainers it is probably unnecessary but it would add another option to buy/sell items.

So gonna just reply quickly to explain, yes sorry.

For skillchains it was simply combos that could be done with multiple players. So a WAR could land the end of their Storm's Path combo and a MNK could land the end of their Snap Punch combo and if done at the right time a skillchain could be trigger which maybe increases dmg a small bit. A mage would be able to hit an elemental spell that could hit for extra damage if done at the right time. Made the battle a little more strategic among players.

They actually had this in XIV at first, in a way but scrapped it--can't recall what it was called. I would love to see them enhance it, even a little. It doesn't seem like "I should just go play XI" when I can easily come into "General Discussion" and start a discussion.

Bazaars would simple be a way to see a small list of items on the person when you check them. Even if it was a few it would a be nice addition (even if they only showed up in towns).

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Snip...

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Skill chains were a convoluted system in FFXI that were eventually abandoned completely by the time I left that game. TP instead of being a readily available resource as it is in FFXIV, was a resource you built up by causing and taking damage in XI iirc. You had to be able to build this up to a minimum of 100% in order to unleash a weaponskill. These weaponskills had modifiers through equipment mods and building the TP gauge past 100% that affected the overall damage caused from them. Skill chains, as the name implies, involved at least two players using their weaponskills in tandem in order to create an effect causing even more damage to the mob. This effect had an elemental property attached to it, which would further modify the damage to the mob depending on if it was weak, neutral, or strong against said element. This also opened the window for mages to contribute to the damage via Magic Bursts.

So you have to know the mob's elemental weakness, look at a skill chain chart, and determine the best possible according to the weapons - NOT jobs - in your party. So as an example, a scythe wielding DRK might have to switch to a greatsword for the optimal skill chain, but then this DRK might tell you that his/her skill level with that weapon is too low to have reliable accuracy. A lot of the time, one player would be holding on to their weaponskill waiting for their chaining partner to build up their TP due to the accuracy issues in that game.

Starting to get a gist why it was abandoned? xD
It is a really good thing that SE abandoned this system entirely, and also getting rid of TP come ShB. These type of resources are antiquated and behind the times.

As for Bazaars, I know they were still present back in 1.0. I am pretty sure I know exactly why these are no longer with us, and it's because of players going AFK for long periods of time, turning their avatar into a non-interactive merchant with limited goods. This won't fly now, and we have retainers which basically serve the same purpose and allow for transactions to take place while logged out of the game.

To OP, these two systems are still present but have evolved to be more convenient and less cumbersome overall to the game and its players. Jobs still interact with one another, and perhaps ever more so in FFXIV. We have things like a NIN combo placing a slashing debuff on the mob that benefits all jobs that use slashing damage, ogcd skills that weaken a mob's damage so that their unavoidable attacks do less, and even skills that tether two players together.

I have to agree with Vidu here, and systems belonging to XI should remain there. There are things about XI that I do/did enjoy more than XIV, but keeping those things there allows me to continue to appreciate what that game meant to me at one point in time.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Thanks for the explantion!

I have to say that it still sounds like something that would not work in our current game, which has different systems in place to deal with those "mechanics".

I see little benefit from not using a marketboard to buy things to be honest. It sounds terribly inconvenient... We can set up retainers in our yards and sell gear using the mannequins now, but I doubt that many people use those features for "buisness"-purposes and focus on the decorative element instead (I know that I do that - and that I would never run around in a housing area, trying to find a retainer that sells the item that I need right now).
I dont even see a benefit in adding this as a system second to the marketboard in some way - I just dont think that its something that people would actually use. I bet that even those who might request it now, would use it to buy two or three items and then return to the market board.

And from what I read about skillchains now... nope, still dont work within FFXIV. One of the main features of this game is supposed to be that you can clear any content with any combination of jobs. Yes, we have some meta-stuff aswell and yes, some syngery between certain jobs exist (like how you absolutly want to take a dragoon with your when you have a bard/maschinist), but this sounds like you depended way more on having the right combination of jobs. Just not gonna work here.

And no matter how the skillchain-system worked in detail, its clear enough to me that it differed a lot from our battle-combo-system and couldnt just be integrated into that, but would rather require an overhaul of the whole basic gameplay of FFXIV.
And why would the devs do that? Why SHOULD the devs do that when our current system is working? Hint: "Because I liked skillchains better" isnt a valid answer - or well, it is a valid answer but one that has an easy solution: Go play FFXI then...
(Last part not directed at you, Allistar, more a general thing... sorry, I'm getting a little bit annoyed at requests that basically seem to aim at changing FFXIV into FFXI. I like FFXIV - mostly - the way it is. And if someone likes the basic gameplay of FFXI, they may play FFXI. At least thats my humble opinion. I'm all for taking ideas and concepts from other games and adjust them to fit this one - but I have... issues with people just "requesting" things to be like FFXI without thinking how and IF they could fit into the basic gameplay of this game at all...)

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XIV has gone through a ton of transformations. It will certainly go through more. If making these suggestions piss you off or something, why even reply with anything? I didn't ask if you thought it would work, I asked if anyone knew of developers discussing them.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

As for Bazaars, I know they were still present back in 1.0. I am pretty sure I know exactly why these are no longer with us, and it's because of players going AFK for long periods of time, turning their avatar into a non-interactive merchant with limited goods. This won't fly now, and we have retainers which basically serve the same purpose and allow for transactions to take place while logged out of the game.

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I don't recall bazaars being available in 1.0 but perhaps it's just been so long I can't remember.

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Originally Posted by Konsentrate

XIV has gone through a ton of transformations. It will certainly go through more. If making these suggestions piss you off or something, why even reply with anything? I didn't ask if you thought it would work, I asked if anyone knew of developers discussing them.

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You missunderstood what I said: Suggestions dont "piss me off", they irritate or annoy me when they arent thought through with the basic system and philosophy of this game in mind.
Part of Yoshis philosophy for this game is that every job-combination can clear any content (as long as you meet the criteria of 1/2 tanks, 1/2 healers and 2/4 DPS), so I wouldnt even expect them to discuss a system that seems to require something that goes against this core design philosophy (aka: requiring certain job-combinations).
Its like asking "Do they consider bringing back the Active Time Battle?"

I'm open for changes and transformations to this game, as long as they dont compromisse the core of it - the battle system and the way it works aswell as their idea of "you can play this with whatever job-combos" you like belong to this core to me.

If you post something in general discussion you should be prepared to discuss it.

But to answer your question: No, to my knowledge the devs havent discussed either of those system (at least not openly, no idea what goes on behind closed doors, obviously).
I simply added my thoughts on why I wouldnt expect them to discuss them in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Konsentrate

I don't recall bazaars being available in 1.0 but perhaps it's just been so long I can't remember.

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I regretfully wasn't around during 1.0. That is just going from the information I've obtained while learning about those days. I don't know for sure if it was called a bazaar, but I know it worked very similarly to that system from XI.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Skill chains were a convoluted system in FFXI that were eventually abandoned completely by the time I left that game. TP instead of being a readily available resource as it is in FFXIV, was a resource you built up by causing and taking damage in XI iirc. You had to be able to build this up to a minimum of 100% in order to unleash a weaponskill. These weaponskills had modifiers through equipment mods and building the TP gauge past 100% that affected the overall damage caused from them. Skill chains, as the name implies, involved at least two players using their weaponskills in tandem in order to create an effect causing even more damage to the mob. This effect had an elemental property attached to it, which would further modify the damage to the mob depending on if it was weak, neutral, or strong against said element. This also opened the window for mages to contribute to the damage via Magic Bursts.

So you have to know the mob's elemental weakness, look at a skill chain chart, and determine the best possible according to the weapons - NOT jobs - in your party. So as an example, a scythe wielding DRK might have to switch to a greatsword for the optimal skill chain, but then this DRK might tell you that his/her skill level with that weapon is too low to have reliable accuracy. A lot of the time, one player would be holding on to their weaponskill waiting for their chaining partner to build up their TP due to the accuracy issues in that game.

Starting to get a gist why it was abandoned? xD
It is a really good thing that SE abandoned this system entirely, and also getting rid of TP come ShB. These type of resources are antiquated and behind the times.

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...I'll apologise if I'm hurting anyones nostalgic feelings here, but that sounds horrible... intresting, to a degree, but horrible.

And totally like something that wouldnt work with FFXIVs combat system. Seeing how they removed the whole elemental aspect from the game (only to add in some "alibi"-version in Eureka, their FFXI-homage content) and streamlining the experience in general, I just dont see them add (or even consider adding, aka discussing) any systems that would require that level of coordination and dependance on what jobs/weapons are present in a group.

Bazaars were in 1.x, they were removed in 2.0 because market board/retainers. Retainers and the mannequin system are basically bazaars and you can place them outside your house if you have one. The market board is just an evolution of the ward system and the search option they added later in 1.2x's life and combined to be more modern and convenient.

Skill chains were in 1.0 (they were called battle regimens), but it was removed and replaced with the limit break system in 2.0. They aren't the same thing, but it's what ended up happening.

I did think it through and still don't see, at all, why it would be a problem to add combos in the current system that could either add additional damage or small buffs. It wouldn't change the ability for every job-combination to clear any content. Would easily be able to make it available to the base job roles then any combo would be able to do it. Bullocks to the idea that it somehow would be compromising the core part of the game.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

Bazaars were in 1.x, they were removed in 2.0 because market board/retainers. Retainers and the mannequin system are basically bazaars and you can place them outside your house if you have one. The market board is just an evolution of the ward system and the search option they added later in 1.2x's life and combined to be more modern and convenient.

Skill chains were in 1.0 (they were called battle regimens), but it was removed and replaced with the limit break system in 2.0. They aren't the same thing, but it's what ended up happening.

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Well bazaars are on your character, that's the major difference. Yes, battle regimens was what I was talking about and they were poorly implemented, I agree.

Skillchains in XI after awhile also just stopped happening unless you were breaking a mythic weapon so you could unlock the weaponskill to use. I'm not sure if there has been a resurgence in XI, but even if it has it wouldn't work with XIV mostly because you'd use one that a monster was weak to with a spell to create a magic burst. Outside of Eureka the devs have moved away from the elemental weakness aspect of the game to the point of removing the buffs from various cnj wands and the like. Bazaars like in 1.0 would just be a clogged laggy area where your retainers would be like a patch day rahuban extreme fest unless you do go and do it with how it is in XI where you can get into cases of harassment. In that trades and can stop a person from teleporting.

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Originally Posted by Konsentrate

Well bazaars are on your character, that's the major difference. Yes, battle regimens was what I was talking about and they were poorly implemented, I agree.

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Honestly I see them as the same concept, in XI people just parked outside in rolanberry with their bazaar usually on a mule, no different than a market board really. It was cool to check people out in the world to see what they had, but since a large portion of XIV is instanced and they don't allow trading in most instances it would be pretty pointless when the market board already applies the same concept and is a lot more convenient with a price history you can check in-game instead of on a third party site.

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Originally Posted by Konsentrate

So gonna just reply quickly to explain, yes sorry.

For skillchains it was simply combos that could be done with multiple players. So a WAR could land the end of their Storm's Path combo and a MNK could land the end of their Snap Punch combo and if done at the right time a skillchain could be trigger which maybe increases dmg a small bit. A mage would be able to hit an elemental spell that could hit for extra damage if done at the right time. Made the battle a little more strategic among players.

They actually had this in XIV at first, in a way but scrapped it--can't recall what it was called. I would love to see them enhance it, even a little. It doesn't seem like "I should just go play XI" when I can easily come into "General Discussion" and start a discussion.

Bazaars would simple be a way to see a small list of items on the person when you check them. Even if it was a few it would a be nice addition (even if they only showed up in towns).

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I mean this just sounds like a weird buff window thatll end up with even more convoluted party dynamics. Currently, I as a player can just pop a buff (Lets say brotherhood going with your example of War/Monk) that everyone can take advantage of without pre-requisite. But a skill chain as described would require not only for me to be watching what a war is doing, but also lining up my GCD with his to ensure my snap punch. Doing this on top of watching boss mechanics, and then having this facet balanced against everyones buffs which they can pop freely or their own skill chain windows on top of things.

Im not saying "Nah combat is perfect as is!" and I wouldnt mind seeing some variety in how things are done, but I think that a skill chain-esque system would be a nightmare for the devs to balance and and a pain in the butt for players at all levels of play. Imagine doing a highly mechanic intensive fight that requires you to skill chain like that to meet DPS checks? Unless you overhaul how the combat system in FFXIV works, I dont think the skill chain system would fit without making things a mess.

As for Bazaars, it sounds like a shop system like how RO (yes I know its old school]) had where a merchant can park their butts in places and set up a shop.

The trouble is I would think a Bazaar system would work...if the open world had a necessity for it. Since RO is a grind MMO, having a merchant set up in a field or location where people are just mob grinding makes sense. Its a pit stop you can go to if you needed to resupply. However, the unfortunate thing with FFXIV is that open world combat is a lot less important. When an xpac launches, yeah zones are packed, but by mid expansion, people are sporadic at best. If the game had more open world combat, I could see the system being useful. But since MBs are merely a recall away (and none to expensive honestly to teleport to) there isnt much use really to it.

I suppose though if you wanted it in the game, what could be done is through retainers. Meaning, yorue given a special item (A retainer voucher or something along those lines) where you can go to a place on the world map, use it, and itll drop your retainer in that spot for a duration of time. Itll set up a shop just like if you had a retainer at your plot. Some stipulations might be necessary, such as you cant place two on top of each other, and you cant send that retainer on a mission or anything if its deployed. Maybe said retainer would have to be limited to being placed in settlements. Or if you could place it on world map, it could be attacked by roaming monsters so your retainer level and gear matters. You could possibly provide said retainer with extra functions (such as repair gear) on top of being a mobile selling point/MB.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Skillchains in XI after awhile also just stopped happening unless you were breaking a mythic weapon so you could unlock the weaponskill to use. I'm not sure if there has been a resurgence in XI, but even if it has it wouldn't work with XIV mostly because you'd use one that a monster was weak to with a spell to create a magic burst. Outside of Eureka the devs have moved away from the elemental weakness aspect of the game to the point of removing the buffs from various cnj wands and the like. Bazaars like in 1.0 would just be a clogged laggy area where your retainers would be like a patch day rahuban extreme fest unless you do go and do it with how it is in XI where you can get into cases of harassment. In that trades and can stop a person from teleporting.

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Yeah, I figured the server load for people coming in and out were why they were not implemented, but I wasn't sure. The elemental part of the skillchains wouldn't fit, I just figured more like the battle regimens were.

From what I understand people in FFXI eventually stopped caring about Skill Chains and Magic Bursts. They also weren't that great on NM's since people didn't want to let melee hit the boss because that would give the boss TP and allow the boss to do moves rather than just auto attack.

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Originally Posted by Konsentrate

I did think it through and still don't see, at all, why it would be a problem to add combos in the current system that could either add additional damage or small buffs. It wouldn't change the ability for every job-combination to clear any content. Would easily be able to make it available to the base job roles then any combo would be able to do it. Bullocks to the idea that it somehow would be compromising the core part of the game.

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How would that be so different from the buffs we already have? Bards crit buff for the whole group - or ninjas trick attack + scholars crit debuff on a given target.

Most roles have a very tight rotation, that doesnt allow for much random button pressing in between - thats why a lot of jobs dont like to use the LB, because when they do, they lose their stance/buff/combo/proc/whatever. If they switch out of their rotation, to perform some sort of combo with a partner (who also has to switch out of their rotation), the possible effect would need to outweigh the potential loss of two stances/procs/whatever...

I can kinda see how this could be fun - having to coordinate more and so, but I already see how well those things coordination-things are working within this game right now and I dont believe that this is the right place for it.

Most jobs offer small buffs to the party already - some more than others - so personally I dont see much of a benefit in adding something that would either be ignored, just potential for drama or have such a tiny effect that its nothing more than a gimmick.


...to illustrate a little: My main dps is bard. As bard I can use "Battle Voice" and "Foes Requiem" to support my party - both dont stack if another bard is using them though. So in order to make the most of it in a scenario where more than one bard is present, you need to communicate whos going first with their buffs (okay, wont kill you - might get difficult if people dont understand english or ignore the chat alltogether) and then watch their MP/the timer on BV to know when to use yours. On top of: watching mechanics, paying attention to your song gauge and procs, the timer on your dots and crit-buff.
Casting Foes at any other time than at the start of a battle is also not ideal - I'll do it, of course, but its one of those things that basically break "my combo" and take away some of the "flow" in my gameplay. Having to time an action with a source that I have no control over also breaks this flow.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

Honestly I see them as the same concept, in XI people just parked outside in rolanberry with their bazaar usually on a mule, no different than a market board really. It was cool to check people out in the world to see what they had, but since a large portion of XIV is instanced and they don't allow trading in most instances it would be pretty pointless when the market board already applies the same concept and is a lot more convenient with a price history you can check in-game instead of on a third party site.

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The cool difference with a bazaar would be that if you were selling something people would have to come and find you and get it cheaper without the tax from the AH. I get the advantages of the current auction house and retainer system, though. I just thought it would be a nice little addition. Server congestion aside.

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Originally Posted by Konsentrate

The cool difference with a bazaar would be that if you were selling something people would have to come and find you and get it cheaper without the tax from the AH. I get the advantages of the current auction house and retainer system, though. I just thought it would be a nice little addition. Server congestion aside.

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The price would need to stupidly low or the item would need to be really rare for people the want to travel to where you are instead of standing at the MB buying items to craft with. Also you would need a system that says these people are selling things in this Bazaar in this place otherwise half the people in the game probably wouldn't even know you existed with the item in your bazaar to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Konsentrate

The cool difference with a bazaar would be that if you were selling something people would have to come and find you and get it cheaper without the tax from the AH. I get the advantages of the current auction house and retainer system, though. I just thought it would be a nice little addition. Server congestion aside.

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If the item is crafted: Look up who made it (little signature on the item), send them a tell, ask if they're willing to sell it to you for less, meet up.

If the item isnt crafted: teleport to the city its sold in and you'll circumvent the additional payment. The seller will still get taxed and recive less than you paid, but we kinda need to remove gil from the game after all... You'll only pay the price thats listed on the market if you buy in the right place though.

I never played FFXI but after listening to my friends who did reminisce about the Skill Chains, complete with the diagrams showing how they worked, I can't say I'm unhappy they were never implemented.

Because this...

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20151120030752
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20081130080552

Looks like a mess, and that's just the diagrams I was shown. Actually looking at the wikia for it made my eyes cross.

https://www.ffxiv-eorzea.com/2015/07...pan-expo-2015/

Yoshi talks balance about being the trouble to re-implement battle regimens, and that does make sense. Still haven't found anything on bazaars aside from it being the reason they didn't auto-logout people in XI.

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Originally Posted by Enla

I never played FFXI but after listening to my friends who did reminisce about the Skill Chains, complete with the diagrams showing how they worked, I can't say I'm unhappy they were never implemented.

Because this...

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20151120030752
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20081130080552

Looks like a mess, and that's just the diagrams I was shown. Actually looking at the wikia for it made my eyes cross.

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It looks more complicated than it is, honestly.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

The price would need to stupidly low or the item would need to be really rare for people the want to travel to where you are instead of standing at the MB buying items to craft with. Also you would need a system that says these people are selling things in this Bazaar in this place otherwise half the people in the game probably wouldn't even know you existed with the item in your bazaar to begin with.

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Well what actually prompted this discussion was me being bored and crafting some food that was way lower than the food I use. I don't want to trash it but if I put it on my person for cheap, maybe a new player might see it and buy it and check my bazaar the next time and see something else I have for sale. This is sort of how I used my bazaar in XI.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

From what I understand people in FFXI eventually stopped caring about Skill Chains and Magic Bursts. They also weren't that great on NM's since people didn't want to let melee hit the boss because that would give the boss TP and allow the boss to do moves rather than just auto attack.

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I stopped playing right when 1.0 came out, so not sure how it ended up. Interesting to know, though.

Both of those ideads sound fun but I'd imagine skillchains doing more harm than good in our great community.

Bazaars served a couple purposes in XI. First, some items could be traded between players, but could not be sold on the market board. Bazaar was the way to make those sales without spamming in shout that you were selling something. Second, you only got 7 sale slots on the market board. If you want to sell more than that, bazaars was another way to do that. The market board did not let you choose quantity when selling stackable items. You either listed an entire stack or you only listed items 1 at a time.

The downside is these items had to be in your inventory, taking up space. You had to be logged in to bazaar items. People would have the game running 24x7. I think the retainers in the housing area was an attempt for a bazaar like system, but not being able to place them anywhere hurts visibility. For example, last year I was buying attachments fot my PUP. There is an NPC that sells them all. There was a guy bazaaring the same attachments for a cheaper price. He camped out right next to the NPC so people would see him. Saved almost 500k gil buying from him. Had he been stuck in town, I would have missed him.

For skillchains, obviously an exact implementation in XI would never work in XIV. They could have something like it if they got rid of group limit break, replaced it with a personal limit break bar(like pvp) then certain combos of personal LB could create a chain. Though I doubt something like that would ever work in this game. Skillchains require group communication and coordinating. Two things that the community doesn't like to do.

Skillchains, or Battle Regimen's as XIV had them, worked better due to slower paced combat.
2.0 ramped up the combat and it'd be a lot harder to chain properly. Not impossible, but def not how people would imagine.

Bazaars would work again, just the same as 1.0 had them. But since there's significantly more placed to idle around now, and not just one city-state everyone congregated at, it'd be harder to 'go shopping' so to speak. Avoiding market board taxes would be nice though.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Bazaars would work again, just the same as 1.0 had them. But since there's significantly more placed to idle around now, and not just one city-state everyone congregated at, it'd be harder to 'go shopping' so to speak. Avoiding market board taxes would be nice though.

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I'd rather go the other way and integrate a living world economy. I'd like to buy cloth goods from a cloth stand, weapons from a weapons trader, etc. etc. Sell items to or through in-town vendors with vendors paying as much as, say, a market bot on the quick flip.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

From what I understand people in FFXI eventually stopped caring about Skill Chains and Magic Bursts. They also weren't that great on NM's since people didn't want to let melee hit the boss because that would give the boss TP and allow the boss to do moves rather than just auto attack.

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They're used again currently. Both in xp and bosses.

Having a BLM or SMN that can magic burst for 99999 consistently is not something to scoff at. They had to buff skillchain effectiveness, but yeah... quite common now.

https://i.imgur.com/9hDgedz.png

I certainly couldn't see them adding skill chains to the current system. The attacks just come out too often to make skill chains viable.

But I could see them adding new abilities in a new expansion that facilitated skillchains. Unique attacks that had something like a 5 minute cooldown and could work in conjunction with other jobs' long cooldown abilities to make a skillchain/magic burst. I think this could be a fun system that adds a small extra bit to FFXIV's combat.

To answer the OP's question, I don't think skillchains belong in FFXIV. They work well in FFXI because of how combat works in that game, but XIV is just too different to just port the system over.

As for bazaars, I mean sure I guess. My thing would be not wanting to devote precious inventory space to selling things when the market board exists and is good at that.

With any new design or new system you want to think about the first question should always be: does this solve a problem or improve something in need of improvement?

Skillchains don't solve a problem or enhance anything. They actually just create problems both in design and play, so they're out. Bazaars MIGHT solve a problem of being able to buy/sell things away from a market board. BUT you'd still not be able to do that in an instance which is the only time it'd really be valuable because just teleporting to a market board isn't that onerous.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

As for bazaars, I mean sure I guess. My thing would be not wanting to devote precious inventory space to selling things when the market board exists and is good at that.

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In 1.0 it was extra spots. I’d often put stuff up for 999,999,999 just to store it.

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Originally Posted by Konsentrate

Did developers ever discuss adding skillchains or bazaars in XIV? :confused:

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We tried both in 1.0, didn't work. Instead we have Limit Breaks and Retainers.