Overhead Enmity Meters?

I think it would be cool if we could get the option to toggle on overhead enmity meters.

So, alongside with the current enemy names/health bars we see, we would also be able to get the information regarding the targets enmity.

This would be for people who currently aren't the target of the enemy, their current level of enmity compared to the target of the enemies enmity.

While for the person who is currently the target of the enemy, there could be a visual difference in the bar and it would instead show the enmity of the second highest player in relation to their enmity.

Essentially, copying what is currently shown in the small bars next to party members, only in a place where not only is it in the middle of the screen where all the action is, but also would be able to more easily show the enmity levels of multiple targets (Without having to tab through them all constantly)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

but also would be able to more easily show the enmity levels of multiple targets (Without having to tab through them all constantly)

---

How would it do that?

If I'm fighting 20 mobs, do you want 20 bars above everyone's head?

Personally, I'm fine with the enmity bars by the party list that we already have, but more options isn't a bad thing. I just don't understand the multiple targets part.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raldo

How would it do that?

If I'm fighting 20 mobs, do you want 20 bars above everyone's head?

---

The bar will be above each enemies head. At a guess, I'd say the logical place would be underneath their health bar.

I.e. If you're fighting 20 mobs, you see 1 health bar and 1 enmity bar above each of the 20 enemies.

How would it be different than what's currently available in the enmity list?
True, that just breaks your relative enmity level with that mob down into one of four categories with different icons, but it shows you all of them at once. I'd like a bit more detail, but I think adding another level that can be represented with those icons would be better than adding yet another place for that information.

We currently have indicators on all mobs that have noticed our existence as to which of four categories we're in:
1) We have primary aggro as the mob's current target.
2) We don't have primary aggro, but aggro is high enough we're on the verge of gaining primary aggro.
3) Our aggro level is pretty high, though not on the verge of being primary.
4) We have some aggro, but it's quite low compared to someone else.
(With no aggro, mobs simply don't appear in the list.)

Three of those four are pretty good as is, but I'd like to see that first one, the large red icon, split into two or three levels, indicating whether we just barely have primary aggro, or have it by a wide margin. But I'd prefer another possibility or two of what icon can appear there over a new feature duplicating it's information.

why do people struggle with aggro so much?

I've been playing since 2.0 and aggro has been buffed like 75 times.

What is everyone else doing? Trying to keep threat just using single target in an AoE situation? Or only using Abyssal Drain and Total Eclipse?

I mean if you're on Warrior and do anything they hold your hand and give you enmity for everything you do.

I remember in 2.0 when you actually had to watch threat. Enmity is such a joke now I never ever ever use Power Slash or Rage of Halone.

In my opinion Enmity is so trivial now, its not even really a mechanic. The only time you're likely to lose threat is you are severely undergeared or you took a nap, or .. something like only doing single target while the party does aoe. In which case, drop a overpower or something and you're golden.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niwashi

How would it be different than what's currently available in the enmity list?

---

The difference being that, instead of being relegated to be next to the party status, that it would be in the most active part of the screen.

Just like how enemy health bars are exactly the same as what's in the list of enemies in the encounter.

Also, the minor difference would be that you'd be able to see the Enmity list of all enemies you're currently fighting. Rather than the list which only shows your current target.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniolaut

why do people struggle with aggro so much?

---

I do Leveling Roulettes.

Wherein you don't get Tank Stance threat buffer until level 30+, you don't get your full rotations including powerful high enmity skills, you get sync'd DPS that do MASSIVE relative DPS that kick out a ton of enmity.

You also get people ST different targets, or some people AoEing while others ST (Due to melee getting AoE skills around level 40-50)

Also, I often run dungeons with DPS stances. Thus, if people don't use their Enmity dumps/reducers, they can easily out generate me with enmity.

In higher level content, ironically, yes, Enmity becomes a non-factor. But that's not the only content in the game. Thus, being able to see enmity levels is useful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

The difference being that, instead of being relegated to be next to the party status, that it would be in the most active part of the screen.

Just like how enemy health bars are exactly the same as what's in the list of enemies in the encounter.

Also, the minor difference would be that you'd be able to see the Enmity list of all enemies you're currently fighting. Rather than the list which only shows your current target.



I do Leveling Roulettes.

Wherein you don't get Tank Stance threat buffer until level 30+, you don't get your full rotations including powerful high enmity skills, you get sync'd DPS that do MASSIVE relative DPS that kick out a ton of enmity.

You also get people ST different targets, or some people AoEing while others ST (Due to melee getting AoE skills around level 40-50)

Also, I often run dungeons with DPS stances. Thus, if people don't use their Enmity dumps/reducers, they can easily out generate me with enmity.

In higher level content, ironically, yes, Enmity becomes a non-factor. But that's not the only content in the game. Thus, being able to see enmity levels is useful.

---

I kinda need more info to respond then.

Bring Strength accessories to leveling roulette.

Paladin in 2.0 didnt even have access to Shield Oath until level 40 or 45 I cant remember now, so its designed to maintain AoE threat with enmity being significantly reduced from its current state.

High level tanks are restricted to VIT accessories. At low levels, VIT accessories dont even exist really. Thus the design of low level content is with STR accessories in mind being used by the tank. So you have to invest in some STR accessories for low level leveling rouelttes.

Which job are you on, which level, what item level, which dungeon, which stance, which job is pulling threat from you, what are you doing to pull, when is threat being lost/regained/lost again, what rotation are you using, are you face pulling? So on so forth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

The bar will be above each enemies head. At a guess, I'd say the logical place would be underneath their health bar.

I.e. If you're fighting 20 mobs, you see 1 health bar and 1 enmity bar above each of the 20 enemies.

---

I'm struggling to see how you'd express enmity in a single bar...? Does each party member get their own color to represent how much of the total enmity they have, and you have to compare the size each color to see where you stand?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniolaut

Bring Strength accessories to leveling roulette.

---

I am.

Quote:

---

Which job are you on

---

Paladin. Dork Knight. Warrior.

Quote:

---

which level

---

Level of my tanks? 50-70

Quote:

---

what item level

---

The highest I can possibly equip. Using HQ gear that I obtained when leveling my main class, Warrior.

Quote:

---

which dungeon

---

Too many to list.

Quote:

---

which stance

---

Both/neither. Depends on the level of content I end up in and thus what I have access to.

Quote:

---

which job is pulling threat from you

---

BLM, RDM, NIN, SAM, WHM, BRD.

Quote:

---

what are you doing to pull

---

Ranged skill while running in > AoE Enmity bonus skill (Flash/Overpower/Unleash) > Enmity combo tabbing vs Trash.

Ranged skill while running in > Some oGCD Enmity skill if available (Such as Circle of Scorn) > Enmity combo vs Bosses.

Quote:

---

when is threat being lost/regained/lost again

---

Losing threat about 10-20 seconds into a fight. Regained when I realise threat is getting low on a target and swap to Enmity combo if not already using.

Quote:

---

what rotation are you using

---

This is leveling roulette. 90% of the time there is only 1 rotation. Which is Enmity combo spam, due to the level at which second combos start to exist (Then, start to actually be worthwhile... Like the mana from Souleater combo doesn't matter until you have DA to actually spend mana)

I can maintain aggro, it just is a matter of noticing if someone's pumping out an unusually high amount of enmity on a target that I haven't pounded much with enmity combos (It can be very odd at times, like, recently I had a party with 2 NIN's and they were doing about the same DPS and one would be piling on enmity to where I needed to spam enmity combos on their target to keep the aggro, while the other barely generated any at all)

Thus, having a better view over different targets enmity would be useful for me.

If this feature is not something you personally need/like, then that's why I suggested it as a toggle. So those that would like it (Especially newer players) could utilize it, while people who don't want/need it would not need to use it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raldo

I'm struggling to see how you'd express enmity in a single bar...? Does each party member get their own color to represent how much of the total enmity they have, and you have to compare the size each color to see where you stand? Ehhh I do not like that.

---

It's rather simple.

You will only ever care about 2 bars, and only 1 will ever be relevant for you at a time.

If your not tanking, you see your own enmity relative to the tank. Just as you do next to your party status.

If you are tanking, you see the enmity of the player who is second on the list relative to yours. Just as you do next to their party status.

You don't care about anyone who's number 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or lower (If this bar also includes non-party members) since none of them will be closer to taking over aggro than the person who is number 2 on the list.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

Needed info.

---

Ok it seems you shouldnt be losing threat in low level dungeons if you're doing as you say, and using STR accessories.

Something that helps direct the party, based on that example with the 2 NIN's that is in game is the marking system. A good macro would be:

/marking attack1 <t>
/ac "Shield Lob" <t>

Keep in mind that enmity generation has been increased for all tank classes at an absolute minimum of 3 times. If not more, I havent kept track, and players in the "vanilla" days were able to maintain threat.

I'm not saying adding an enmity bar that can be toggled is a bad idea, I'm saying its not very useful for the developers to add it this late in the game for specifically low level content, which you admitted would be its only real use for. They already adjusted enmity 3 times for this specific complaint.

I'm offering advice to you as a player, in hopes to help you maintain threat better. Not because I think you are bad, or I am better than you, but sometimes people arent aware of certain things that can cause a situation to go unexpectedly, and a more experienced player has seen how certain situations can do just that "go unexpectedly."

The best way to approach such things is to weed out possible more common errors.

My only other suggestion now is to try to physically watch the dps players. Meaning, visually watch the players character to see which enemies they are fighting.

If you use the "attack1" mark and they are not fighting it, you can ask them to either 1. use their enmity reduction action, 2. do as directed based on the attack1 marker or 3. vote kick them. Its considered "difference of playstyle" and not considered an offense to kick someone for not listening to the party. You also can just leave yourself. If something isnt going how you like, in a pug situation, no one is forcing you to remain there. The point of the game is to have fun, and if someone is purposefully doing things that arent helpful, you dont have to party with them.

2-3 flashes, 1-2 overpowers/unleashs should be plenty to maintain threat with the current enmity multipliers, followed single target on any job doing single targed on a mob. Split dps is split dps, and is a dps/party issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

Ranged skill while running in > AoE Enmity bonus skill (Flash/Overpower/Unleash) > Enmity combo tabbing vs Trash.

Ranged skill while running in > Some oGCD Enmity skill if available (Such as Circle of Scorn) > Enmity combo vs Bosses.

---

Not speaking to the main topic, but a few pointers: for trash pulls, you should spam your AoE enmity skill 3-4 times if you don't have tank stance yet (sub-30 content); that will generate enough of an aggro lead to keep you safe, though maybe pop another once in a while to be sure. In 30+ content, 1-2 uses in tank stance should be enough unless the DPS is single-targetting (which, unfortunately, they sometimes do even when they have their AoE combos available. That's on them; ask them to use their AoEs if they have them).

Try and match whichever add your DPS players are targeting - look for which one seems to be dying the quickest and focus on that one. Once you have access to your actual AoE damage skill (Total Eclipse for PLD, Abyssal Drain for DRK; Overpower spam is actually a good option for WAR from the get-go), use that instead. Remind the DPS to use their enmity mitigation tools if they have them as well (Diversion/Lucid/Tactician/Refresh). That should help with keeping aggro, though in low level dungeons you'll run into issues anyways since people often don't know what they're doing.

As for the enmity meter on the HP bar: that's fine as an option, but it'll clutter up the screen even more, especially as you level and start pulling bigger. I'm also not certain how easy it would be to implement, if only because of the game's infamous spaghetti code.

Edit: formatting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

Also, the minor difference would be that you'd be able to see the Enmity list of all enemies you're currently fighting. Rather than the list which only shows your current target.

---

Ok, I guess I can understand people wanting the indicators where the mobs are, particularly since tanks are melee and need to get close for most of their skills, but how is showing all the enemies you're currently fighting a "difference"? That's what the current list does, it shows you, at least in general terms, how your enmity stands with each mob you're fighting, all at once.

The only thing the bar in the party list adds is which of your teammates is the next closest. That little bit of added info is just for your current target only, but just knowing who's the next closest usually isn't as important as where you stand in relation to the next closest, which is the part you can already see for all the mobs at once.

EDIT:
Well, at least you usually can, unless it's a big enough pull that there's too many enemies to fit in the list. Then you might not see them all. But in that crowded of a situation, it'd be hard to make sense of that many indicators no matter where they were on the screen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niwashi

Ok, I guess I can understand people wanting the indicators where the mobs are, particularly since tanks are melee and need to get close for most of their skills, but how is showing all the enemies you're currently fighting a "difference"? That's what the current list does, it shows you, at least in general terms, how your enmity stands with each mob you're fighting, all at once.

---

There are two aspects to OP's suggestion. One is about the visual location of the relevant enmity info, in which case, sure, it doesn't make a big difference compared to the enemy list because it's all there.

But the other aspect is the granularity of that info. The enmity gem indicators in the enemy list have never been a superb indication of anything. Depending on the mob group and length of the encounter, orange could mean you're one Scatter away from getting aggro on something, or yellow could mean you're one Scatter away from getting aggro on something. For tanks it's even less granular: red could mean anything from "you have enough enmity to hold these mobs for ten Flares" or "you barely have enough enmity to hold these mobs for one more Scatter" and then the other three colors are meaningless beyond "you lost the mob".

Yes, a good DD will use enmity management tools and a good tank will just use all the right tools at all the right times and never lose aggro. The thing is, a lot of players aren't good; or even worse, a lot of players who could become good aren't good yet, because they have no interface feedback beyond "you have the mob" and "you don't have the mob" or the interface feedback is hidden behind the need to tab around to every single target and mentally compare all the enmity bars for each party member for each mob. OP's suggestion is a good one, as it would make the most relevant party member's enmity bar visible with a better representation of the scale of one's enmity lead.

It doesn't have to be done as overhead bars, but if nothing else, the enmity representation in the enemy list should be updated to something more in line with this.