BLU as an "Unlimited" Job - Thoughts and Suggestions

I believe that BLU can work as a job that isn't restricted to certain level caps and banned from certain (Read: Most) content. I feel it's almost there in its current implementation and really just a short leap from its current state into something that would have no issues going into the game proper.

As such, I wanted to put together a thread where people can discuss their views and ideas behind changes that could be made in order to facilitate the moving of BLU into a more unlimited role (Also, setting a precedent for future "Limited Jobs" to not have to deal with the same asinine restrictions)

Since, BLU is pretty fun, with lots of potential that it seems such a waste to relegate it to minor side content and having new content be released as a secondary to the main game.

So, to start with I thought I'd put out there some ideas to changes to the core mechanics of BLU and the issue with "Not having learned necessary skills for DF"

Base Mechanic Changes:
BLU is now only restricted from accessing the Duty Finder up until level 50. At which point, a series of side quests will become available which will each unlock a Whalaqee Totem for a new skill (Detailed Below). The finishing of all quests in this chain will unlock access to Duty Finder content.

BLU now has stats on their weapons. Due to this, they now receive a normalized level of Magic Power from INT. Weapons from level 1-50 are available from Battlefield Supplies vendors in Limsa Lominsa, Ul'dah and Old Gridania. Weapons from 50-60 from Battlefield Supplies vendor in Ishgard and weapons from 60-70 available from merchants throughout Gyr Abania and Othard. In addition, new weapons are added to dungeons from levels 50-70.

Ability Changes:
All skills now have a minimum level requirement, restricting their usability in level sync'd content in addition to meaning a level requirement in order to learn a skill.

In addition, certain skills will now apply one of a number of debuffs. These debuffs have no impact on the enemy itself and are merely used for BLU's own combo effects, as a result they are appplied to all enemy targets and are unaffected by diminishing returns.

Off-Guard:
The increased damage dealt to a target affected by this skill is reduced from 50% down to 20% in order to allow base potencies to be increased.

Peculiar Light:
The cooldown of this skill is increased to 90 seconds up from 60 seconds. The magical damage increase provided by the skill is reduced from 30% down to 20%.

Mighty Guard:
Reworked - Now functions as a party cooldown skill. Reduces physical and magical damage taken by the party by 10% for 30 seconds. 180 second cooldown. This affect does not stack with Troubador bonuses.

White Wind:
Now has a cooldown of 120 seconds. Also, as a result, it now has a minimum heal of 50% of your maximum health to improve consistency.

Various Skills:
Base potency of many basic damage skills has been increased to 170 up from 100/110/120/130

New Skills and Skill Redesigns:

Aqua Breath now applies the debuff "Water" to targets in lieu of Dropsy.
*NEW* Bubble Spray functions the same as Aqua Breath and is obtainable from Megalocrabs throughout the world.

High Voltage now has a combo bonus against targets afflicted by the debuff "Water". Combo potency increased to 230 up from 130. This skill has a cooldown of 15 seconds.
*NEW* Electrocute functions the same as High Voltage and is acquired from a Whalaqee Totem unlocked by one of the new level 50 side quests.

The Ram's Voice now applies the debuff "Ice" to targets in lieu of Deep Freeze.

The Dragon's Voice now has a combo bonus against targets afflicted by the debuff "Ice". Combo potency reduced to 250 down from 310. Deadzone decreased from 8 yalms to 4 yalms. This skill has a cooldown of 18 seconds.

Flamethrower now applies the debuff "Fire" to targets.
*NEW* Heat Breath functions the same as Flamethrower and is acquired from a Whalaqee Totem unlocked by one of the new level 50 side quests.

Fire Angon now has a combo bonus to targets affected by the "Fire" debuff. Combo Potency is 240 and applies a damage over time effect with potency of 15 with duration of 15 seconds. This skill has a 20 second cooldown.
*NEW* Blastbomb functions the same as Fire Angon and is acquired from a Whalaqee Totem unlocked by one of the new level 50 side quests.

*NEW* Quasar deals unaspected damage to targets in an area with the potency of 400. Acquired from a Whalaqee Totem unlocked by one of the new level 50 side quests.

*NEW* Toxic Shell functions the same as Song of Torment. Acquired from a Whalaqee Totem unlocked by one of the new level 50 side quests.

*NEW* Beta functions the same as Eruption. Acquired from a Whalaqee Totem unlocked by one of the new level 50 side quests.

Feather Rain potency decreased to 100 from 180. Damage over time potency decreased to 10 from 20. Duration increased to 60 seconds up from 6 seconds.
*NEW* Leafstorm functions the same as Feather Rain. Acquired from a Whalaqee Totem unlocked by one of the new level 50 side quests.

Mountain Buster potency increased from 310 to 400. No longer deals reduced damage to targets beyond the first.
*NEW* Earth Shake functions the same as Mountain Buster. Acquired from a Whalaqee Totem unlocked by one of the new level 50 side quests.

Shock Strike potency increased from 310 to 600.
*NEW* Blitzstrahl functions the same as Shock Strike. Acquired from a Whalaqee Totem unlocked by one of the new level 50 side quests.

Glass Dance potency increased from 290 to 900
*NEW* Ice Break functions the same as Glass Dance. Acquired from a Whalaqee Totem unlocked by one of the new level 50 side quests.

Veil of the Whorl now also causes damage taken to increase the targets magical damage taken by 5% for 4 seconds.
*NEW* Maelstrom functions the same as Veil of the Whorl. Acquired from a Whalaqee Totem unlocked by one of the new level 50 side quests.

The idea of these changes are to make the base foundations of BLU feel solid. With less reliance on Off-Guard and Maim and Mend to do appreciable damage, leveling alone will feel more enjoyable and lead into experimenting with more spells instead of spamming just 1000 Needles.

In addition, alternative skills for currently RNG gated ones within Trials/Dungeons are made available through several short side-quests (Each quest will unlock multiple totems to reduce the investment of time needed to get your skills online). In addition, their minimum level requirements are spread throughout levels 1-50 so some will be usable in level sync'd content. Of course, completionists as well as those whom wish to use alternate skill animations are still able to farm the duties to learn the original spells.

Also, the basis for the job's playstyle is created. Through the application and capitalization of numerous elemental debuffs, they will carve out a dynamic playstyle for themselves. With new skills adding to this system with new element skills (Such as Air, Void, Earth, Poison, Bleed etc.) and/or new ways to consume existing debuffs.

This will allow players to tailor their skillset to find a selection of combos and elements that they like to use in order to deal their damage.

In addition, they will also be able too access various unaspected abilities which have powerful effects but don't feed into their elements and combos, while also having their Primal oGCD abilities (Also, their non-primal more reasonably attained variants) to use alongside their combos.

I appreciate your work, but that sounds as boring as other normal Jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laphael

I appreciate your work, but that sounds as boring as other normal Jobs.

---

much bettter than spamming 1000 needles, or Glower.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laphael

I appreciate your work, but that sounds as boring as other normal Jobs.

---

How so?

Do you find current BLU to be more interesting than normal jobs? If so, why? What about it makes it more interesting and what differs between it and what I've suggested?

Some more feedback would go a long way towards finding a solution that would both allow the job to be unique and interesting whilst still allowing it to perform in a reasonable manner during regular content. :)

Also bear in mind, these are merely the 1-50 skills. Without touching on the 50-70 skills which would further enhance the playstyle much like with other jobs (For example, SAM in level 1-49 is pretty dull, it's only once you hit 50+ and get your full suite of Iaijustsu's and your Kenko Gauge that the class starts to become fully fleshed out)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laphael

I appreciate your work, but that sounds as boring as other normal Jobs.

---

There's a lot of jobs in this game that are plenty fun. I actually don't get this whole "Blue Mage needs to be a minigame because every job in the game is boring!" mentality... like do you actually like this game? Because Bard is 100 times more fun than Blue Mage will ever be as a limited job despite having a "generic rotation" or whatever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zandervont

much bettter than spamming 1000 needles, or Glower.

---

Fixing those is a different discussion. That doesn't mean that OPs direction is the correct way to go.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

Do you find current BLU to be more interesting than normal jobs? If so, why?

---

I can give you my opinion on it: I like BLU for what it represents rather than what it is. We all know that BLU is flawed, and over time it will be improved (As most jobs in the game have at some point), but its core identity is exactly what community has been asking for for a long time. My biggest complaint about BLU is that I want more, I don't want BLU in raids, I want Disciples of Collection (I refuse to call them limited jobs) to have their own raiding scene that gives us a different experience that I guess leans slightly more towards how XI works (im not saying I want XI). The masked carnival gives us a taste of strategic use of our skills, introducing new elements to XIV combat such as elemental weaknesses, with these requiring planning and prepping before raid, rather than simply acting and reacting to 'generic' attacks with set skills.

We should get squadrons at the very least, and I have seen arguments for allowing BLU into older roulettes once they have all skills unlocked for that level, but I would never want BLU to be just another job, because we have enough of those already, and will be getting even more. Let BLU expand what the game can be, rather than being warped and changed to fit within the set criteria for what the game currently is.

while many of the changes would be good, such as changing potencies and the nature of the blu weapons so that they could produce damage like other jobs, some of this looks overcomplicated and heavily leaning towards removing the rewards of obtaining spells through personal achievement and effort, which is central to the whole motif of BLU.

1. Just remove BLU's restriction from not having access to the DF synced altogether. Instead make certain abilities. (the only one I can think of being 1000 needles) unusable in synced content under level 45 maybe? 1000 needles is really the only spell that does not scale well. Level syncing abiltiies in general is /okay/ but I think most spells are fine as is aside from 1000 needles for any content tbh. tailscrew/missile/and doom already only really work on trash mobs so those are not likely to break anything meaningfully.

2. Instead of replacing certain abilities with quested copies, thereby removing the need to endeavor to obtain them. Utilize the ability for blu to enter content synced to create a more rewarding and fun way to get them. Increase the drop rate on the rarer abilties obtained through trials and dungeons to something reasonable like 20-30% and make it so they are only obtainable by doing the content synced. Want glass dance? learn and beat Shiva EX synced you would only need a few runs to get the ability, synced content is already pretty easy especially with the echo. It would be more rewarding and not grindy at all if instead of being carried through the content 100 times you have to learn the fight and complete it as blu a few times. If anything the learn rates in this scenario should be reversed, having field mobs drop spells much slower than trial and dungeon mobs.

3. Personally I think mighty guard is fine as it is. it's a handy tool for soloing and the idea of having BLU be a "ghetto tank" is appealing in it's own right. If anything I'd like to see BLU be encouraged to take on a tanking spot for some of the less intense content such as dungeons, using CC and mighty guard. We could use more tanks in this type of content, why not let BLU flex into filling that need? Obviously a BLU should never be on par with regular tanks, and likely should not be able to que as tank for 8 and 24 man content, but dungeons? Let them eat cake. BLU having a small tanking kit that would let them flex into that role is nothing but a good thing imo.

I personally have no problem with BLU just being level 50 until the dev team has time to develop it up to cap, but I think it's far too limited as is. There's no really great reasons for it to be as limited as it is rn aside from like 1000 needles being super overpowered in lower level content. I would vastly prefer "limited" being "limited for a time until we finish it." rather than "side activity". The Masked Carnivale is nifty and a fun way to earn a few spells, but engaging endgame content it is not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

How so?

Do you find current BLU to be more interesting than normal jobs? If so, why? What about it makes it more interesting and what differs between it and what I've suggested?

Some more feedback would go a long way towards finding a solution that would both allow the job to be unique and interesting whilst still allowing it to perform in a reasonable manner during regular content. :)

Also bear in mind, these are merely the 1-50 skills. Without touching on the 50-70 skills which would further enhance the play style much like with other jobs (For example, SAM in level 1-49 is pretty dull, it's only once you hit 50+ and get your full suite of Iaijustsu's and your Kenko Gauge that the class starts to become fully fleshed out)

---

This The Blue Mage could be level 80 with the other Jobs when Shadowbringers release why are they not because this is totally a Different Job then any other Job in the game and the players are not going to understand how to play it at it best. so to make them feel better we are going to put them a side and leave them out of most content and a few little words and they'll be ok with it. like the top tier raids will not use you so we don't want you to feel rush so sit right here and go slow take your time. like I said your already making a list thinking everything wrong with the Blue mage when it's not. this if we messed up who fault is it the developers who babysitting us or are we able to go my bad now where that located .. yep going got all spells and ready to go. yeah but you won't work well with others so don't worry the team of developers are putting you? oh look you want to go here .. nope sorry you be ok though the big Developers are going to lock you out of fighting so you won't get hurt. ok maybe if my spells change to these just like everyone else then I get to fight right. oh look you are trying to kill what make you .. well you. when you don't see what SE doing you. if you made a list on what he said the reason were you go everything you said is faults (we are done this way because of 1 thing the developers want responiability on what the players should be in charge of and nothing else). you can't even do Job Quest without having the right spell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I can give you my opinion on it: I like BLU for what it represents rather than what it is. We all know that BLU is flawed, and over time it will be improved (As most jobs in the game have at some point), but its core identity is exactly what community has been asking for for a long time.

---

What exactly is that core identity?

Playing as BLU, I don't feel it's much different to any other class, other than how it learns skills and of course, the complete and total disregard for having skills feel different and unique what with all of them being just normal spammable skills with no CD's or anything.

Further exacerbated by the fact that many skills are interchangeable because they're all balanced the same doing 120/130 potency to a target/in an area with different "Flavours" that are basically unusable because they're all predicated on having targets afflicted with status ailments that are highly limited in application (Such as Petrify is only from that 1 skill you get from Haukke Manor and is an RNG chance to apply it only to trash mobs)

As I mention in my OP, I suggest these things because it feels to me, that BLU IS very close to "Normal" jobs in comparison.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

My biggest complaint about BLU is that I want more, I don't want BLU in raids, I want Disciples of Collection (I refuse to call them limited jobs) to have their own raiding scene that gives us a different experience that I guess leans slightly more towards how XI works (im not saying I want XI).

---

You don't want BLU in raids you just want... BLU in raids?

Uhh... Okay.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to think of ways to make elements mean something in places outside of the Masked Carnivale, so that for BLU, everywhere will feel like Masked Carnivale. Creating interactions between elements and skills that cause them in a way that will not only feel good to use, but also mean that people will be able to experiment with different skill setups rather than use the 1 skill that does X element damage to the target that's weak to X element. Or their current playstyle where they pick whatever 130 potency attack and spam that for days (Especially given how few people have the full slew of abilities for the rotation, because RNG on Primal skills being learned...)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Let BLU expand what the game can be, rather than being warped and changed to fit within the set criteria for what the game currently is.

---

Well, letting BLU be a "Normal" job without heavy limitations DOES expand what the game can be. As it means that any job that doesn't fit into exactly the same formula as other jobs in the "Level up, get skills = GG" sense can still be created and can still fit into the majority of content within the game.

Instead of being segregated to side content which would need the devs to divert resources to specifically in order to make sure these few jobs can get continual content while at the same time you KNOW that their primary focus will be with the content accessed by the majority of jobs. All that content is a veritable playground for a job like BLU to be used and to flex their muscles in terms of gaining new skills (Again, the skill set noted in my OP is merely the 1-50 core skills. There's so much more depth that can be added with the 50-70 skills)

Especially given how quick it would be to consume new content. Heck, a majority of the content for BLU already was completed in days for many people, getting to level 50 and learning most spells and completing the Masked Carnivale.

How much time will need to be spent by the Devs to create more content? How long will that content last? A month? A week? A day?

How much time is spent by a normal class experiencing all the content the Devs make for them? All the raids and dungeons, all the MSQ's, all the time in exploratory missions, all the time spend doing DF dailies and Beast Tribe dailies and PvP and tomestone farming and all the other many things that Limited Jobs are prohibited from.

All that extra content locked away from the jobs for what? The possibility that they might make a "Limited Job Raid" where elemental weaknesses matter despite their not being a guarantee that any other limited job other than BLU will even HAVE elemental attacks?

Not to mention, that BLU being able to do normal content, doesn't preclude them from adding in additional Masked Carnivale style content for them to do or these FFXI style "Tactical Raids" that you wish to get. It merely means that the job can have content to play in without ultimately having to drag people away from playing their jobs in content that matters to them in order to carry them through irrelevant dungeons/trials to get their skills...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Razorfinch

some of this looks overcomplicated and heavily leaning towards removing the rewards of obtaining spells through personal achievement and effort, which is central to the whole motif of BLU.

---

Well, this is merely just because as BLU exists at the moment, some of their core spells in order to have a full DPS rotation, are locked behind level 50 EX Trials (The Primal skills) or otherwise need to run through level 50 dungeons/raids in order to obtain (Such as Song of Torment)

Which causes an issue if you ever intend to let people access DF because then they literally wouldn't have access to their core rotation until they've somehow already farmed the content accessed by the DF a ton (Especially with the Primal skills only having a 5% chance to be learned)

For the most part, I want skills to be collectable in the overworld. However, in order to fix what SE screwed up by sticking such important skills into RNG Dungeons and Trials, there has to be a compromise. To which, I feel the best solution is being able to get similar abilities from totems upon reaching a level where DF becomes accessible, but still having the option to go and learn the spells from the Dungeons/Trials at a later date (Much like how people in the single player FF games might complete the game and then go back and learn all the skills for completionist purposes)

Ideally, for all future skills, I would prefer if the ones that would be core for the full DPS rotation (Or can substitute for part of the core DPS rotation) be all learned from enemies in the overworld. Be it random enemies, FATEs or Leves. As that is most fun and more true to the idea of BLU.

It just sucks that SE botched it pretty hard with Song of Torment and the Primal skills...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Razorfinch

1. Just remove BLU's restriction from not having access to the DF synced altogether. Level syncing abiltiies in general is /okay/ but I think most spells are fine as is aside from 1000 needles for any content tbh.

---

Well, it's not just about the fact that certain (1000 Needles) skills are OP at lower levels, but it's also about consistency and the NUMBER of skills available.

People would complain if when they're sync'd to level 15 and running Sastasha they only have 2 skills to spam and are not particularly effective (Outside stat syncing making them deal massive damage compared to an actual level 15 newbie) meanwhile you have BLU running around with 24 skills having full access to all of their level 70 combos.

Again, ideally it wouldn't be so strict that you couldn't for example, go and learn skills from an enemy that's 10 levels higher than you. Just that you're not running around with a ton of available skills in content where everyone else is far more limited. Since, BLU will anyway have more skills available than average due to needing to be able to access a few skills as depending on what skills they've learned and which ones they actually decide to use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Razorfinch

2. Instead of replacing certain abilities with quested copies, thereby removing the need to endeavor to obtain them. Utilize the ability for blu to enter content synced to create a more rewarding and fun way to get them.

---

Again, the issue is the conflict of interest between certain skills and the ability to actually go do the content.

At level 50, you'll be expected by groups to have Primal skills and Song of Torment as they're key parts to your rotation. But how do you get those skills? You run through level 50 dungeons and trials.

How do you access those dungeons and trials... Well you can't through Duty Finder because most people who advocate for BLU to be able to access DF want it to be restricted until BLU have learned enough skills they perceive to be necessary for them to function. But without DF access to this content, you're at the mercy of forming a party using the PF function, which outside the initial BLU hype is likely not going to be terribly easy to do ESPECIALLY if you have to do it sync'd so you can't even get a friend to carry you through it.

Of course, this is to say nothing about the CONTENT of the quests to unlock these replacement skills, which could actually just pit you against the relevant enemies and let you learn the normal skills (Thus making the need for my suggested replacements unnecessary)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Razorfinch

3. Personally I think mighty guard is fine as it is. it's a handy tool for soloing and the idea of having BLU be a "ghetto tank" is appealing in it's own right. If anything I'd like to see BLU be encouraged to take on a tanking spot for some of the less intense content such as dungeons, using CC and mighty guard. We could use more tanks in this type of content, why not let BLU flex into filling that need?

---

Because, as a Tank main, I'd rather get new tanks that are actually designed to be tanks, rather than try and balance Mighty Guard in a way that allows it to not be a problematic skill. Especially when it comes to trying to get a job into normal content while also trying to balance them for a pseudo-tank role. BLU's don't have Tank job actions, nor do they have access to Tank gear. Giving them a Tank stance and trying to make them also be able to Tank is just adding in a huge balance headache for little gain.

That, and the current iteration of Mighty Guard is an aberration compared to the much beloved skill of the same name found in many previous games in the series.

It would be akin to if Goblin Punch, instead of being a massive damage nuke, became a short duration stun to a single target.

I feel like trying to figure out what makes it limited would help in delineating what is being locked off fundamentally and what is being limited for little reason. For example, while I want Blue Mage to function as close to a respectable normal FFXIV job as possible, I understand one of its selling points is that it does have a unique leveling system, perhaps being locked out of queuing for leveling dungeons would encourage that. Especially if in the future, there is more focus of getting "required" spells for quests and duty requirements in the overworld/soloable things.

That being said, many of the limitations currently I feel are in place with little to no justification. I wonder if it'd be that hard to have a Blue Spellbook ability set which one sets somewhat like a PvP action bar that becomes automatically available in queue-able, at-level content. Some abilities set within it have different effects (white wind on a cooldown, peculiar light with some restrictions) and some cannot be set.

I don't particularly feel assigning them level gated spells is the most beneficial route, as I feel that there's a certain amount of trust that is involved with playing an online game with other players, and limiting based on the lowest common denominator situations where some Blue Mage joins and is a complete waste of space reflects poorly on not just Blue Mage, but every other job. Yes, there will be some unfortunate instances where a Blue Mage slots Diamondback and just spams it like an idiot all dungeon, but there are also situations (I've unfortunately seen a few) of tanks provoke battling during specific mechanics on fights to grief parties. I also still see White Mages that haven't picked up Regen all the way to 70...Anyway, I just want more trust for the playerbase instead of less. Thankfully Blue Mage is a DPS, and as such in typical random parties their responsibility is rather low, especially in something like Alliance raids. If Blue Mage were a tank or healer and came in lacking something like a Regen or tank stance that might be a different story, but this is not the case. That one Ninja coming into an Alliance raid not slotting or not using/missing Trick Attack is unfortunate, but not entirely uncommon, forgivable, and still people are thankful for the Ninjas that do nail it and control their enmity to boot.

I also respectfully understand that perhaps one reason they've been hesitant to go full resource mode and get Blue Mage where it should be is that they feel a "normal" job needs all the bells and whistles or the dev team wouldn't take pride in their work, so for example having weapons drop from every primal and dungeon that currently exists, meaning a ton of weapon models will have to be created. I wonder if there is a way for the playerbase to convey they're either satisfied with foregoing that amount of weapons, or be willing to wait for that full makeover.

If Blue Mage were to be "balanced" with some of the more problematic spells being retuned or restricted, right now it'd still be a semi-boring, slightly underpowered level 50 job. But that's not really too different than most jobs at 50. Bristle + Song of Torment and planning for a Peculiar Light phase every minute is already more complex than Black Mage and Red Mage at 50. One would imagine it would grow in amount of applicable spells and complexity as the level cap increases. One way I'd like them to do this is, as some players have mentioned, implement more interactions between spells as combos or effects. I propose this needn't be specific 1-2-3 combos, but have more options for spells based on what DoTs to apply to cause effects, like Dropsy -> High Voltage. Lest this create a specific "meta", I would imagine a Blue Mage would have a certain core rotation combo for being in melee range, using Sharpened Knife (for slashing debuff) or Goblin Punch (for blunt) and applying bleed or something with their GCDs while weaving in the other stuff. To fulfill a ranged role, they might have more spells with DoT effect combos they can utilize but have funky range requirements or cast times.

Different "packages" of Blue Mage core rotations in this way needn't be more or less powerful than the other, but as mentioned, give them flexibility in parties under various compositions and situations, which is a very Blue Mage kind of style while still being applicable to parties with other jobs.

Above all, there's a lot of thoughts and feelings about how Blue Mage might eventually be, and even if it's something wildly off from what the playerbase could have theorycrafted, I would like going forward for the team to acknowledge improvements could be done that are appreciated by everyone. While it's not satisfactory for many players currently, people do seem to care about Blue Mage quite a bit and would appreciate greatly for it to get appropriate attention to such an iconic job.

seems to me the devs noticed that blue mage would need lots of maintenance to be a full job, i'd be all for it but feel the devs dont think the playerbase is "bright enough" to latch on so they released this gimpy locked away version

If blue mage was up to me it would be a complete job just a way more in-depth and personal one, it should be the jack of all trades choice, able to tank, heal or dps depending on its variant.

pretty much keep it so they need to go fight monsters of all types for abilities which would let them use whatever they want in the open world and be op as ever, then for duty content have it get detuned and have it setup so all of those myriad abilities have affinities towards dps/tank/healing so the player can form rotations based on them that would set their "variant" or what they would run that content as. I feel it should be a dps at its base with avg healer and tank stats when needed.

BUT unlike the other jobs that are locked in duty the blue mage should be able to switch if needed, lets say your tank goes down, the blu should be able to switch until the tank is back up or vice versa if a healer was incapacitated.

the issue with my idea is that it places work on players who want to play it and thats the plan, it would weed out those who dont wanna put in the work for it, it would be designed to protect other players, pretty much locking a blu mage out of group content until it's (1) found all of its abilities (2) built all 3 of its rotations, it would be a monster of a job to build and upkeep but I feel it would bring with it a big sense of accomplishment to those players that work with it.

overall I envision it as a solo monster, able to go out and lay waste to the world but when grouped together balance its open world freedom with the ability to be a clutch job that can cover for others when needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laphael

I appreciate your work, but that sounds as boring as other normal Jobs.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zandervont

much bettter than spamming 1000 needles, or Glower.

---

https://i.imgur.com/FztkaFQ.png

Worth a thousand words? Probably. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

Off-Guard:
The increased damage dealt to a target affected by this skill is reduced from 50% down to 20% in order to allow base potencies to be increased.

---

I actually approve of the way Off-guard has been designed by SE and I'll explain why I say that. As it currently stands, Blue Mage has a heavy focus on AoE attacks which is likely a direct result of the many AoE attacks used by enemies. Increasing the potency of those spells could have the adverse effect of pushing its AoE damage through the roof which may be unhealthy for balance. What Off-guard does is it provides a way to increase BLU's single-target damage output while keeping its AoE damage in check.

That being said, I would actually choose to increase the damage gained from Off-guard even further. However, if Blue Mage is to remain dependent on Off-guard to contribute meaningful single-target damage, then its ease of use would need to be improved. Its recast timer should be no higher than 5 seconds so that it can be quickly applied to new priority targets. I also consider the cast time on Off-guard to be unnecessary. It should apply instantly.

I will admit that the need to rely on Off-guard doesn't feel great, but it strikes me as a necessity for balance as long as Blue Mage remains largely AoE-centric.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

White Wind:
Now has a cooldown of 120 seconds. Also, as a result, it now has a minimum heal of 50% of your maximum health to improve consistency.

---

This is certainly something that could work, though it would need to be accompanied by a change to another spell. Having cleared all stages of the Masked Carnival, I have noticed how dependent Blue Mage is on White Wind to sustain themselves. If White Wind were changed so that it can only be cast once every 2 minutes, it could significantly harm BLU's solo capability.

But there is a solution: Blood Drain. It's already odd enough that the spell doesn't restore your HP when that's exactly how the action functions when used by enemies. It's how I always thought they should have handled healing for Blue Mage. Blood Drain as a cost-efficient self-heal and White Wind as a heal for the party.

Since Blood Drain would have to take the place of White Wind as BLU's primary method of self-sustain, its cure potency would have to be pretty decent. Around 800 potency would be needed to replicate similar effectiveness to White Wind based on comparisons to Cure II.

The only thing that I'm left to wonder is, if Blood Drain is made into a healing spell, should it retain the MP restoration? Normally, casting White Wind as a self-heal would be taxing on MP, but Blood Draw wouldn't have that problem when MP is restored at the same time. That would allow for infinite sustainability and that sounds like... too much.

But there is a solution. Currently, BLU's MP consumption ordinarily isn't high enough for Blood Draw to see regular use. (And with Blood Draw as a cost-efficient self-heal, MP consumption would be less than it is now.) So the way I see it, Blue Mage can afford to wait until later for its MP restoration spell. Specifically speaking, I can see that function being given to Magic Hammer which will likely be made accessible once the cap is raised to 60.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

What exactly is that core identity?

---

The core identity of BLU is collection, as would be the core of all "limited jobs". Beastmaster collects pets (think pokemon in the overworld) and puppetmaster (some sort of crafting mechanic to create mammets?). We aren't talking about combat, we are talking about the primary activity of the job, which is building up a library that can be used.

I have not actually disputed any of your complaints btw, I acknowledge that the actual spells of BLU aren't that interesting, and what the player can do with those spells is limited (I believe that squadrons and roulettes should be something that BLU should gain access to), but the idea of lumping BLU with all other jobs in terms of level cap and access to raids/pvp/deep dungeon does a disservice to the potential that the content has.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

You don't want BLU in raids you just want... BLU in raids?

Uhh... Okay.

---

Reading this makes me dismiss a lot of what you have said, unfortunately, which is a shame because some of your ideas are good and resonate with my own opinions. Please read again what I said about BLU raiding. I don't want BLU to participate in traditional raiding, because the game mechanics there do not suit BLU. What I want is for limited jobs to have their own endgame, or "raid", which is currently the masked carnival (which I love, but also admit has some flaws, such as being exploitable and needing more longevity), where mechanics unique to limited jobs can be implemented, and we can get an endgame far broader than what the cookie cutter raids of normal jobs are able to provide. Once we have a second job, I feel that this idea can be expanded upon a lot more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

Meanwhile, I'm trying to think of ways to make elements mean something in places outside of the Masked Carnivale, so that for BLU, everywhere will feel like Masked Carnivale. Creating interactions between elements and skills that cause them in a way that will not only feel good to use, but also mean that people will be able to experiment with different skill setups rather than use the 1 skill that does X element damage to the target that's weak to X element. Or their current playstyle where they pick whatever 130 potency attack and spam that for days (Especially given how few people have the full slew of abilities for the rotation, because RNG on Primal skills being learned...)

---

I agree on principle that elemental skills should be expanded, but I am unsure as to how this could be achieved. The masked carnival works because it is a BLU only bubble where the game can work completely differently, whereas the rest of the game is shared between BLU and normal jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

Instead of being segregated to side content which would need the devs to divert resources to specifically in order to make sure these few jobs can get continual content while at the same time you KNOW that their primary focus will be with the content accessed by the majority of jobs.

---

While this is true for the most part, it is just a mentality that you have. You don't know the roadmap that the devs have for limited jobs, and they may be a direct response to the comments that the traditional formula is stale. It may be an attempt to create a parallel experience that provides something completely different. All we know from the devs end is that they said that other limited jobs are being planned, which tells us the scope of their vision. Think of it like crafting and gathering, are they just pieces of side content that the devs have to funnel resources into, or are they parallel experiences to the battle content that some players dedicate their entire game experience to?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

Especially given how quick it would be to consume new content. Heck, a majority of the content for BLU already was completed in days for many people, getting to level 50 and learning most spells and completing the Masked Carnivale.

How much time will need to be spent by the Devs to create more content? How long will that content last? A month? A week? A day?

---

How long do dungeons and raids take to consume? What do you do once you have beaten them once? Again, I have acknowledged that BLU is a bit too limited, and does need some changes to give it more longevity, but that doesn't take away from the idea of a limited job at its core, only that BLU needs some QoL to give it more things to do (such as squadrons and older roulettes). The normal job system has had 6 years of QoL improvements, whereas BLU has had a single (arguably meant for testing the new system) patch. We don't know what the dev has planned for BLU in 5.0, and we don't know what they have planned for limited jobs in general. Maybe you are right and we get absolutely nothing and this is all that the devs planned for limited jobs, but I find it hard to believe that the devs would create an entirely new classification of job and not want to expand on that idea in the near future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

The core identity of BLU is collection, as would be the core of all "limited jobs". Beastmaster collects pets (think pokemon in the overworld) and puppetmaster (some sort of crafting mechanic to create mammets?). We aren't talking about combat, we are talking about the primary activity of the job, which is building up a library that can be used.

---

I wanna put emphasis on that last part.

Yes, collecting is a key part of BLU. However, a primary reason FOR collecting is to actually USE the skills.

As such, they need to have content in which to use the skills in.
Content that is relevant and means something for them to use the skills in. Not something like current Masked Carnivale which doesn't need you to collect many of the skills in order to complete it. Not like if BLU was massively OP and could solo everything at level (The novelty would wear off pretty quickly).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

but the idea of lumping BLU with all other jobs in terms of level cap and access to raids/pvp/deep dungeon does a disservice to the potential that the content has.

---

Again, how?

How does BLU being able to participate in normal content suddenly prevent any additional content being made?

Things like your weird "Limited Job Raid"? Which, if you really want to push for it, why don't you make a thread where you discuss how to make it work in a way that wouldn't be absolute garbage because simply having elemental weaknesses will not function because it's likely that Beastmaster and Puppeteer won't have the option to go around collecting various elemental skills.

What stops them from expanding on the Masked Carnivale while BLU is able to do normal content? They'll still be getting new skills as they get new level caps (Or potentially even more frequently, because that's one of the things about BLU is they can get new skills within their existing level cap)

Please, detail exactly the ways in which BLU accessing normal content precludes ANY side content for them existing.

Is PotD not existing because all the main jobs are doing main jobs things and we can't have side content? Does the Gold Saucer not exist and get updates because main jobs are doing main jobs things? Do we not have HoH as an extension of PotD? Do Squadrons not get updated? Do we not get Exploratory Missions and updates to them?

There's plenty of side content that gets added even with the "Standard" raids/dungeons. Why is BLU being part of the "Standard" content suddenly mutually exclusive to side content?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Please read again what I said about BLU raiding. I don't want BLU to participate in traditional raiding, because the game mechanics there do not suit BLU. What I want is for limited jobs to have their own endgame, or "raid", which is currently the masked carnival (which I love, but also admit has some flaws, such as being exploitable and needing more longevity), where mechanics unique to limited jobs can be implemented, and we can get an endgame far broader than what the cookie cutter raids of normal jobs are able to provide. Once we have a second job, I feel that this idea can be expanded upon a lot more.

---

Again, explain why both cannot happen. Why BLU cannot both be allowed to play in traditional raiding and can have these "Limited Job" raids that are all as quirky as you like?

Not to mention, that BLU can be designed so that traditional raiding isn't so far from their mechanics. Though, I'm curious as to what you believe would be different. I mean, so far, the only thing that seems to be different between current raids and what I've seen about "Weird janky Limited Job Raids" is elemental weakness. But how much would that ACTUALLY impact things? It just means you change what colour skill you spam from a red one to a green one depending on the mob. You know, exactly like Eureka which has elemental weaknesses and you just swap your magia board to the one that counters the current NM boss you're fighting.

Like, at best I can think of maybe a boss like Ultima changing elements as we pull out all the different primals, but even then (Not only have we already beaten Ultima) but the situation just becomes you have to limit your spell choice so you have a fire, wind, water, earth etc spell on your action bar to spam. Hardly game changing mechanics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I agree on principle that elemental skills should be expanded, but I am unsure as to how this could be achieved. The masked carnival works because it is a BLU only bubble where the game can work completely differently, whereas the rest of the game is shared between BLU and normal jobs.

---

Currently, BLU has no traits (Other than generic Maim and Mend). There could be traits implemented that further play off using elements, such as giving flat bonuses to certain elements used while an enemy has a particular element debuff on them, which isn't consumed as with the "Combo" skills (So you swap your filler spell depending on what the last element you used after your combo skills)

Not to mention, they COULD in fact, add in elemental weaknesses to enemies if they wished. Put it as the level 50+ job mechanic where they get a little HUD element that shows what element the targeted enemy is attuned to, similar to the Eureka Magia Board. Then, they have elemental weaknesses added in, but only for BLU so that RDM/BLM don't get screwed over by resistances to their main damage spells. Essentially expanding that "Little BLU bubble" across the entire game.

These are only 2 examples that I came up with.

Imagine how many more we could come up with, if instead of arguing about how BLU's mechanics clash with regular content we actually tried to come up with solutions until we find one that the majority of people seem to find satisfactory?

Since that's really getting under my skin at this point, all the people who are against BLU as a job that can access regular content are just trying to attack the very idea of BLU as a "Less Limited Job" rather than try and contribute to discussions of improving the job in ways that make sense for the fantasy and design of a Blue Mage that would not only benefit the class if it became less restricted but would also serve to improve gameplay and design of new content if the class remained heavily restricted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Think of it like crafting and gathering, are they just pieces of side content that the devs have to funnel resources into, or are they parallel experiences to the battle content that some players dedicate their entire game experience to?

---

Well, I'd assume they have different teams (Or sub-team) working on Crafting and Battle content. Meanwhile, the suggestion is that there will be a further divide in battle content as both regular and limited jobs would both need battle content churned out.

Which, if they do, then it's also again, possible for BLU to be able to participate in regular content with also having more limited job content too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

How long do dungeons and raids take to consume? What do you do once you have beaten them once?

---

They last however long it takes to get all the gear from, to farm tomestones from, until you get bored of fighting the same bosses again and again.

Once I've beaten them once, I do them again. Repeatedly. Since they're fun content. I do them in Roulettes. If I had a raid team I'd do raids frequently too, maybe bringing new people through them (As I did back when I was a Raid Leader in WoW)

This is to say nothing of if SE decide to have dungeons part of the Relic Weapons again, which might provide further longevity of the content due to farming to get those shiny glamours.

A lot of people have expressed that it would really suck not to be able to pull off those crazy spells BLU is known for. At the same time, though, if a BLU can just use those all the time they sort of lose their impact or otherwise be seriously broken. With that in mind I had something of an idea for a mechanic that could help tie things together for a balanced version of BLU.

Indulge me by engaging in some class fantasy:
As a user of blue magic, you wield a highly unique set of spells. Cherry-picking the best from your foes and wielding them as your own source of strength, you chain them together in ways other mages wouldn’t dream of. By applying a Blue Mage's intuition and ingenuity, you combine those seemingly disparate pieces into an art, a sum greater than the whole of its parts. FFXIV's blue magic synergies foreshadow a much greater sense of cohesion between blue magic spells that only a master can see: applying the innovative spirit of the Spoken to the curious magicks of nature itself, you can engineer the abilities never meant for man and use them better than even the beasts you learned them from. Through clever modifications of the underlying aetheric manipulation, you can ignore the costs of inefficient spells, cast lengthy incantations in a flash, and shrug off the side effects of reckless magic.

To give the gist first, my idea is basically this: a Blue Mage can have access to an array of extra powerful Blue Magic without necessarily having it be practical to use all the time.

Put heavy costs on those spells (high MP costs, severe cast times, or drawback side effects ala Moon Flute or Overheat) while making them very powerful. Naturally it's going to be no fun if you don't get to mix those spells into your combat style, so we have a mechanic: try to get around the limitations of those spells. I envision this working by using other blue magic to build toward one of three metamagicks: Focus, Haste, or Wisdom. The Focus metamagick lowers the MP cost of your next blue magic spell by a large percentage. The Haste metamagick cuts cast times to a quarter (or some other fraction). Finally, the Wisdom metamagick prevents the “recoil” effects of spells from going off.

By utilizing the right blue magic in succession or pulling off spell combos, you can fish for certain metamagick procs and use them for those spells that, while strong, might not be the most efficient use of your resources otherwise. I’m hoping this could be a nice way to include powerful, memorable versions of such spells such as White Wind, Mighty Guard (if it functioned more like a defensive cooldown than a tank stance), Beta, Trine and so on without letting it become overbearingly powerful.

I also think this would be a neat sort of parallel to the Red Mage: where the Red Mage uses very measured, efficient spells to make the most of their own aether, the Blue Mage could embrace the quirks of nature’s magic and work around them.

>Makes blue unique because its not allowed in currrent content
>People want blue because its unique
>Literarly ignoring that as a proper job it would be more of a turret/buff snooze job then Black

you cant make that shit up

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phoenicia

https://i.imgur.com/FztkaFQ.png

Worth a thousand words? Probably. :)

---

accurate

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaitoo

snip

---

Why would that have to be the case? None of the current casting jobs really play all that similarly at all in my experience, and I have all of them at 70.
They could make Blue Mage a casting DPS, but give it a bunch of fast-casting short range spells so it has to move around a lot.
They could make it use a heavily proc-based system like Bard where it always has to react to changing conditions.
They could even make Blue Mage into a full-on tank, if they so chose. It certainly has a decent amount of tools for it already, so many of the changes would just be stats.

Also, I think the image you quoted is sarcastic... all those Glowers represent the mechanically ideal way of playing BLU now. Why not make it more interactive and fun to play? The current system is unique in implementation, but the actual combat gameplay gets stale fast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Factoree

.

---

So make Blue Mage something that has nothing to do with how it plays and is potrayed now
roger

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaitoo

So make Blue Mage something that has nothing to do with how it plays and is potrayed now
roger

---

They've said they have over 120 spells currently planned. Do you really think that none of them could be adapted or tweaked towards any of those? I already see plenty of short-range area spells (any of the Breath spells for example) and spells that could be useful to tank. Mighty Guard, Sticky Tongue, The Look, Diamondback... the list goes on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Factoree

They've said they have over 120 spells currently planned. Do you really think that none of them could be adapted or tweaked towards any of those? I already see plenty of short-range area spells (any of the Breath spells for example) and spells that could be useful to tank. Mighty Guard, Sticky Tongue, The Look, Diamondback... the list goes on.

---

120 spells planned for something that should be an limited class that can only parcitipate in old content, yes

not one 1 spell currently planned with the next expansion and any encounter, composition or anything relevant for blue

Like why you even dodge the direct response? You clearly described and state yourself they should redesign the job into something that has nothing to do with its current iteration. Why do people gloss over this? All your argument become void saying "blue is so fun i want to play it in normal content" while stating if they do that they basiacly make an another job. Again at this point you could ask for any new job, wouldnt make a differnce

This is my opinion after getting as much done while i can on blue to this point.

I would have liked to have Blue Mage (and other limited jobs) have access to the Guild Heists as a way to get exp and learn some of the spells. I would have also liked to have this be able to travel with our grand company squad as a way to level and learn magic. It would make sense as several of the dungeons we need to go to is on that list (also to improve the squad stats).

One way to have fixed the blue catalog of spells for formed parties and Duty Finder would have been to let them learn magic at any level. Then depending on the spell have a minimum level or iLevel as a way to balance the job with existing jobs in that content. Like having eruption used at any dungeon after the Bowl of Embers Normal. The same goes with other primal abilities that have a normal or hard mode between dungeon access or associated with new dungeons in that patch and iLevel. This would allow it to be both a "solo job" and give it semi-limited play options with other people and jobs. It would also have not made this quick solo glitch as big of an issue. Especially giving the "limited" aspect of the job, that glitch wouldn't have become as wide spread or the most efficient tactic available to level the job. At some point those blue magic farm groups will dry up, unless you are at the level cap to do them sooner than later.

There is no comment on effects like Doom or lv5 Petrify or Death (if available). As with the other spells now, the end bosses have immunity to lots of stuff. The idea of one shooting Bahamat EX with bio and Tail Screw, 10~20 seconds of doom etc... could never happen and is not a valid argument to make for said spells. Given the shear number of spells I can see why it's a limited job. It's the only one with a mile long bucket list for spells so to phase it on slowly with it's own separate level cap. Is a good way for devs to recheck and tweak its spell list as well as not have players kicked out or quitting for not having specific spells for that specific content.

Also what is the deal with Blue Mages cane? Functionally there's no difference between LV1 and lv50 or possibly any other level. If its just for glamour then let us farm or craft Level 1 glowing Primal canes for Blue Mage. Better yet let us meld Int materia if it so tied with our spell damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Factoree

A lot of people have expressed that it would really suck not to be able to pull off those crazy spells BLU is known for. At the same time, though, if a BLU can just use those all the time they sort of lose their impact or otherwise be seriously broken.

---

Well, if you compare it to the current combo that people actually use which is Ram's Voice > Dragon's Voice. That's not particularly hard to pull off especially given the complete lack of CD's on any BLU skills. If anything my suggestions makes combo's rarer (Because CD's) but usable on bosses.

Not to mention, you can still have crazy combos. For example, if you got some really strong skills with long CD's that need multiple elements on a target to get their combo effect. Or you can have some unique elemental debuffs that only have a chance to be applied when you use certain skills.

An example would be if BLU could access skills such as Void Fire, Void Lightning and other Voidsent skills and each of them only had a chance to apply the "Void" element which would be used for some powerful combo effects.

This isn't to mention other combos that could be created for non-direct damage spells. For example, what if there was a buff you had that could be consumed to empower Bristle? What if there was a combo you could do that would consume Moon Flute and bypass its Waning Nocturne debuff (Perhaps giving a damage buff to allies in the process, so that it resembles actual Moon Flute in previous games that would cast Berserk on an ally)?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaitoo

>Makes blue unique because its not allowed in currrent content
>People want blue because its unique
>Literarly ignoring that as a proper job it would be more of a turret/buff snooze job then Black

you cant make that shit up

---

>Literally ignoring the fact that the only "Unique" thing about BLU is their learning system and that their combat isn't particularly unique
>Also ignoring the fact that BLU can quite easily pushed in a certain playstyle direction because their skills give them various aspects of potential unique playstyles

Like, you say that as a proper job BLU would be a turret like Black. But already many BLU skills are Cone/PBAoE's that means BLU would have to get up close with the mDPS in order to use them. They also have different radii on their skills, meaning they have to move around (Especially with Dragon's Voice which has a deadzone up close)

Right now they're a turret job because they lack any sort of mechanics or sense of direction (Also, any additional DPS skills are tied behind RNG Dungeon/Trials), so the best play is to spam one of the highest potency skills you have 24/7, to which Glower has the best range to do so.

If you actually have all of the skills on BLU, your rotation is more complex. Bristle > Off-Guard > Song of Torment as an opener as well as what you want to refresh every 30s. Then you have your Ram's Voice > Dragon's Voice for trash. With also Eruption, Static Strike and Glass Dance oGCD skills to weave in.

But just because not only are these skills not readily available to everyone and also because the content they can access doesn't demand them, BLU ends up being mostly Glower spam after leveling up with 1000 Needles spam.

Thus actually becoming a "Proper Job" would make them more interesting to play because as a "Proper Job" it would necessitate these skills becoming more accessible and thus more people would then have access to BLU's full rotation as well as content that demands it.

Blue Mage was never this super complex impossible to adapt job in any of the single player Final Fantasies that existed prior to FF11. Hell, in FF5 its primary means of attacking was elemental spells that wouldn't have looked out of place on Black Mage, with the only difference being that there were a few boss fights in the game you could break with gimmicks. In FF7 Enemy Skill was basically just Attack Magic But Better. Blue Mage's uniqueness can be represented through innovative rotational gameplay and a condensed version of the current learning system (IE, everything is from the Overworld, doesn't have horrifying RNG, the number of skills is equal to other jobs like its been in most games instead of this filler collectathon bastardized from FFXI).

Blue Mage's core rotation against instant death-immune bosses right now is a completely rudimentary "press off-gcds when they come up, keep up 1 dot, spam glower"... even PLD's rotation is more unique than this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaitoo

120 spells planned for something that should be an limited class that can only parcitipate in old content, yes

not one 1 spell currently planned with the next expansion and any encounter, composition or anything relevant for blue

Like why you even dodge the direct response? You clearly described and state yourself they should redesign the job into something that has nothing to do with its current iteration. Why do people gloss over this? All your argument become void saying "blue is so fun i want to play it in normal content" while stating if they do that they basiacly make an another job. Again at this point you could ask for any new job, wouldnt make a differnce

---

Yes, I think the job needs a redesign and some new aspects to make it more fun than "spam instant death or spam glower", which is what it currently is. I thought that was obvious. You make it seem like there's something inherently wrong with that. The only difference between ideas in this thread is how extensive that rework is. Have you even played it as it is right now? Because it's really not that fun, even on mobs vulnerable to instant death.

If they're going to fix it, they need to put in a lot of thought either way. I'm asking about Blue Mage because it was one of the most demanded jobs and it's been done in a way that feels totally incomplete. If SE feels like putting out a low quality product like the current BLU then so be it, but I actually have some faith they can turn this around.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Factoree

I thought that was obvious.

---

Because you nor me speak for everyone. Nor does anybody else. I already read in many other threads, including this one btw., that they dont want blue if they would be "another generic job like the existing jobs" (aka a functional job in this mmorpg). So no its not obvious and its not something that demanded in unison either.
Heck some people want even the whole combat system redesigned into some unholy abomination to only fit blue in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaitoo

Because you nor me speak for everyone. Nor does anybody else. I already read in many other threads, including this one btw., that they dont want blue if they would be "another generic job like the existing jobs" (aka a functional job in this mmorpg). So no its not obvious and its not something that demanded in unison either.
Heck some people want even the whole combat system redesigned into some unholy abomination to only fit blue in.

---

But many of those same people who don't want BLU if it means being "Another generic job like the existing jobs" can't even make up their own mind on what they even want BLU to be or how to make it, in its current iteration (Some people say they like), not just another generic job like the existing jobs but with the caveat of having no real content to do.

Since, that's one of the main points that pushed a lot of the people from "Wait until you play it before complaining about how it should be a 'Proper Job'" to actually wanting it to be able to participate in normal content. The fact that it pretty much is a normal job, just with a couple of quirks (That being, the learning system and some fluff insta-kill spells that most things are immune to anyway)

Some of the people against BLU being integrated into the game feel that way because they want BLU to be FFXI BLU.

Some people are just happy with the Masked Carnivale and don't really care either way so long as MC gets more content (Which is not mutually exclusive with BLU being able to access regular content)

Other people seem to be under the impression that an entire new game full of dungeons and raids and unique Duty Finders will be made purely for "Limited Jobs" and that's their reasoning for not wanting BLU to become a "Generic" job because they feel that BLU is so completely unique and different that it only makes sense to create an entire second game around them and future Limited Jobs.

But honestly, as things stand, these are the facts:

BLU is not at all that different from other jobs. Their only unique feature in terms of gameplay is their learning system which means they don't get set skills at set levels and they have a wider pool of skills that they can choose a set of up to 24 skills from to access at any given time (Which is also implemented in a way where you can save different sets of skills to quickly switch between). That and the decision to give them a weapon without stats and instead modify the INT scaling to approximate the missing INT from having an ilevel 130 weapon equipped (But nothing about the other stats that would be on the weapon) which can only be assumed was to do with SE not wanting to have to bother making more than 2 weapon models.

Everything else about BLU is exactly like every other job. They use MP like every other job. They have role skills like every other job. They use equipment like every other job (Sans weapons as mentioned above). They fight using skills like every other job. They have an "Optimal Rotation" like every other job. They gain experience like every other job. Their balance is pretty much the same as every other job (Mostly, they're a bit weak but have like 3 skills which are very strong but not for actually using for their primary role when at level 50). They are, just like every other job. This is not opinion, this is fact. Anyone who has played BLU at level 50 can attest to this fact.

They're not some massively different class. It's not like if it was Puppetmaster that had you play Lords of Verminion in order to fight enemies. It's not like if it was Gambler and you had to play Triple Triad in order to fight enemies. Which would be massively different and completely incapable of functioning in normal content because of being so far removed from "Normal", "Generic", "Proper" jobs. No, it is literally a standard job as is, in its current implementation.

This in mind, the job WILL need improvements going forward. This is indisputable fact. As the job currently stands, it's a bare-bones showcase of a class. There is no depth and it is basically a reflection of a level 50 class in so much as it kind of feels incomplete. It will need new skills to flesh out its combat and to make it more interesting, it might also require some changes to existing skills to either bring them up to par or to give them some relevance at all. This will be the case irregardless of if the class is allowed in normal content or not. It's just plain fact that the job is currently pretty simple and that Masked Carnivale will be getting expanded on in their upcoming level cap increase to 60, which necessitates new skills as well as new MC mechanics to play around. As such, the class WILL be getting more depth.

As such, why not lay the foundation for making the class have some level of coherence. Giving it a more defined playstyle within its basic level 1-50 skills (Such as with my, or many other peoples, suggestions). Which will make it easier to expand upon when they move into level 60 and later 70 and later 80, 90, 100 etc. If it happens that this makes it easy to justify it being able to get up to the same level cap as other jobs as well as being balanced with them while at those levels then there's viability for the job to have its restrictions lessened. Even if they do keep their unique quirks, which is one of the main draws to the class as opposed to just playing BLM/RDM/SMN right now (Though, with an improvement to their combat by expanding on their base skills, they would also be able to carve out a unique playstyle to use as a draw to the class over BLM/RDM/SMN whom all play differently to each other and so draw different people to them)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

Not to mention, you can still have crazy combos. For example, if you got some really strong skills with long CD's that need multiple elements on a target to get their combo effect. Or you can have some unique elemental debuffs that only have a chance to be applied when you use certain skills.

An example would be if BLU could access skills such as Void Fire, Void Lightning and other Voidsent skills and each of them only had a chance to apply the "Void" element which would be used for some powerful combo effects.

---

I love the idea of BLU working on a system where there’s some level of adapting to RNG and decision making, similar to Bard’s whole deal, especially if there’s a benefit to maintaining a diverse array of elemental debuffs on the enemy to encourage you to use a wide array of your spells.

Something else I saw (don’t remember exactly where, but if I find it i’ll edit this) and thought was neat is the idea of applying conditional debuffs.

Let’s say that the [balanced version of] Blue Mage kept a Petrify skill in its toolset similar to Black Mage’s Sleep. If Petrify worked for a few seconds on dungeon trash or overworld mobs, it wouldn’t really be a huge problem, but if it worked on bosses it would very easily be over the line of being unbalanceable.

Hence the idea: if the target is immune to Petrify (or whatever other status effect your spell inflicts), the spell could attempt to inflict a “backup” effect, in this case “partial petrification” where the target’s flesh is only turned partially to stone and they take Earth damage over time instead of being helpless. I’m assuming most of these would be DoTs or even some of BLU’s “inflict this to deal more damage with another spell” statuses.

Could be a neat way to have a little bit of separate balance between “regular” monsters and “raid” monsters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Factoree

I love the idea of BLU working on a system where there’s some level of adapting to RNG and decision making, similar to Bard’s whole deal, especially if there’s a benefit to maintaining a diverse array of elemental debuffs on the enemy to encourage you to use a wide array of your spells.

---

Yeah, I mean, I see plenty of people talking about wanting elemental weaknesses so that BLU can play off them, but really, that doesn't sound particularly engaging at all. Given most content you'd end up like Eureka, where you just have X element active which counters the target you're currently fighting (Which would translate to "This pack of trash" or "That boss" in regular gameplay. Maybe there would be some trash that have multiple elements in them that serve no purpose other that gimp your AoE damage)

But elements are a way to provide dynamic playstyle, be it by shifting what skills your using based on elemental procs, trying to build up specific elements to unleash a powerful spell, or simply filling time with some simple 1>2(potentially >3) combos of different elements.

Since, it's not as if elemental based attacks are what you'd call, reliable. Especially for monsters whom won't have as much control as say, well practiced Black Mages or Conjurers that literally commune with the Elements. Even more so for the Voidsent whom are already mutated themselves by the Void, what's the chances that their magick would be all weird and inconsistent for proccing things?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Factoree

Hence the idea: if the target is immune to Petrify (or whatever other status effect your spell inflicts), the spell could attempt to inflict a “backup” effect, in this case “partial petrification” where the target’s flesh is only turned partially to stone and they take Earth damage over time instead of being helpless. I’m assuming most of these would be DoTs or even some of BLU’s “inflict this to deal more damage with another spell” statuses.

Could be a neat way to have a little bit of separate balance between “regular” monsters and “raid” monsters.

---

Well, part of that is similar to my suggestion with having these "Element" debuffs, with just the extra effect of dealing some DoT damage (Which would put some more number balancing into the equation) as well as bringing up some questions surrounding what happens if a target is immune due to diminishing returns? How would skills that have combo effects word this (Would it instead say "Additional Effect: Potency is increased to X when target is afflicted with Petrification or Partial Petrification. The Petrification or Partial Petrification effect is also removed." how would the Petrify skill word this? Would it work for all sources of say, Petrify or would Partial Petrification be unique to BLU?)

It's a lot more work to try and make CC skills part of a rotation, balancing between trash mobs and bosses as well as dealing with effects that otherwise have a very consistent usage throughout the game.

It was something I had considered before deciding to suggest these debuffs, which could be kept completely separate from CC skills, so that those CC skills would be used primarily for their CC (But could also provide these debuffs. I.e. BLU's Petrify skill, Level 5 Petrify could still apply the "Earth" element debuff, then as a Voidsent skill, it could also have a chance to apply the "Void" element debuff. Thematically still having a similar effect, only being more consistent and easier to balance)

I think possibly the biggest issue to be discussed regarding unlimiting Blue Mage revolves around the CC aspects. I think in general it’s been found that aside from a few dungeon minibosses vulnerable to instant death, the CC BLU provides really isn’t as crazy as once imagined when factoring in resistances and so forth, especially with gated pulls where you can’t just Deep Freeze the enemy and stroll past. Hell, you might spend longer trying to Doom the enemy than you would just hitting them with AoE.

Wondering if anybody has any thoughts on what this implies for the game, BLU or otherwise. Could very well be that it’s time for some CC to return/debut on other jobs, or if not it could be one of two opposite extremes: that BLU’s seeming focus on CC should be its core attraction (maybe give it a Scan gauge that shows the targeted enemy’s immunities?) or that a hypothetical balanced version of BLU should get the vast majority of its CC gutted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Factoree

Wondering if anybody has any thoughts on what this implies for the game, BLU or otherwise. Could very well be that it’s time for some CC to return/debut on other jobs, or if not it could be one of two opposite extremes: that BLU’s seeming focus on CC should be its core attraction (maybe give it a Scan gauge that shows the targeted enemy’s immunities?) or that a hypothetical balanced version of BLU should get the vast majority of its CC gutted.

---

I think the most likely recourse would end up being BLU's CC being gutted. Likely with similar limitations that their insta-kill abilities would get if it were to become a real job.

Since, adding in a bunch more CC's to other classes as well as overhauling the way that Diminishing Returns works, would likely have far more severe impacts to the game than we might initially think. Especially if such changes to DR end up affecting what CC gets applied to us. Not only in terms of enemies chain-CCing us to death (See: Fighting the Deathclaw Elite Hunt target as a class with only a single damage type) or being trivialized by chain-CC, but also massive implications for PvP content, where even with the current DR BLU would be pretty dumb in because of the sheer variety of CC's they have available (Petrify, Deep Freeze, Stun, Silence, Bind, Paralyze, Blind, Heavy etc) would allow them to chain-CC as is by just using different effects with different DR stacks.

Not only that, but in the practical sense of their CC, most of it is just a set up for their combo bonuses, after which it is removed. So it's not as if for gameplay reasons they are required to keep all of their CC intact, if there are alternative ways of allowing them the ability to set up their combos that would not rely on having to affect targets with CC.

Though, it's not as if they would need to lose all CC effects, or have them be all limited in use, just merely tuning down of various skills that would see a lot of common usage (For example, The Ram's Breath)

Personally, I see a Debuff, Skill Chain, and Magic Burst system modernized to FF14 being something worth looking into. The systems and concept discussion of FF11 with friends of mine was far more entertaining than actually playing that game, and it'd be interesting to see if such a system could be implemented into FF14's more structured content.

Putting a majority of these "Starters" on Tanks, Supporty DPS, and Healers while putting the "Breakers" on the DPS is also a healthy way of sharing damage responsibilities for party content, while including expensive / costly solo alternatives so that any individual job can do their cool stuff when in the overworld as well, where resource cost doesn't matter, or during encounters when properly supported by a team.

And this relates directly back to Blue Mage as it could be retrofitted into that Supporty DPS who fills the "Starter" requirement for many different jobs, or at least has the capability to support such a notion with its Load Out selection.

Got more physical? Load up on skills that enable Slashing, Piercing, and Blunt breakers to occur. More magical? You can handle that too. From a gameplay perspective, the Blue Mage is therefore less concerned about its own burst windows and instead focused around enabling others. Raid Burst windows may sync up, but each Job also has a burst window that doesn't so neatly sync up to the 120 second set up.

Machinists cycle every 60, Black Mage's every 90, a Blue Mage built into this system is always working up the next big thing practically every 30 seconds.

I'd play that.