Trusts and squadron

How do you guys feel about the trust system? Is it going to be standalone or part of the squdron system? Or will it replace squadrons?

From the limited information we have now, it sounds like a glorified Squadron system. FFXIV already has two seperate systems for combat npc joining us: Squadrons and Companions. Rather than adding a third, I'd prefer for all three to be merged into one master system that keeps all battle npcs under one roof. Allowing chocobos, squadron members, and whatever trust npcs there are to join us in any content, have skill trees, customizable appearance, etc.

But for now, the Trust system isn't something I'm looking forward to. Sounds like it will be another over hyped and under delivered system that's only slightly different from what we have already.

Eh...Why would your "friends" (NPC's) let you choose their clothes?

Squadron, of course. You are their superior in a stand-alone military cell, you have the right to choose their uniforms. But NPC's?!

Also, the likes of Y'shtola have unique abilities that no one else does. They will probably have them in the trust system as well, to a point. For example Alphinaud with his special Carbuncle. It would not work with squads.

Then there's also the fact that squads level up...NPC's won't most likely. They will have whatever stats are necessary for given content. They will also be programmed to do their job, not be given commands by you. Just like the guys in Scholars quest line. You do give commands to your squadron however because...you are their superior.


These are two different system for a good reason and I don't want them to become one and the same. It would ruin both of them because compromises would need to be made.

It sounds like the squadron system, or maybe more like the solo duties where story NPCs help you out. I assume they made it Shadowbringers-only because they are designing each dungeon with the system in mind and programming the NPCs specifically for them. Squadrons are pretty simple and can't really handle mechanics at all.

I probably would have preferred they expanded on Squadrons, I assume this means they'll never add to squadrons again. And I don't know if I like them using the name, Trusts in FFXI are more like if your squadron worked like a chocobo companion and could be called wherever, but Trusts in FFXIV sound like they will be very limited.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Eh...Why would your "friends" (NPC's) let you choose their clothes?

Squadron, of course. You are their superior in a stand-alone military cell, you have the right to choose their uniforms. But NPC's?!

Also, the likes of Y'shtola have unique abilities that no one else does. They will probably have them in the trust system as well, to a point. For example Alphinaud with his special Carbuncle. It would not work with squads.

Then there's also the fact that squads level up...NPC's won't most likely. They will have whatever stats are necessary for given content. They will also be programmed to do their job, not be given commands by you. Just like the guys in Scholars quest line. You do give commands to your squadron however because...you are their superior.


These are two different system for a good reason and I don't want them to become one and the same. It would ruin both of them because compromises would need to be made.

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I hadn't heard anything about the Trust system characters being fully autonomous, without the ability to level up, do you have a reference you can give for this?

One thing I think this system really really needs is massively improved tank AI, or barring that, Pet controls specifically for tank so at least we could micro the most important member of our team. Other roles... whatever, but tanking? It needs to be perfect. Nothing short of perfect is acceptable. Tank squaddies, as they are currently implemented, are terrible and for the best example of why, one only needs to run The Vault with a squadron. You can't set marching order so you're always the first thing that scripted-aggro NPCs jump on and that's... bad, and even if you survive the initial rush, the AoE spam that's the most efficient way to clear those hordes constantly rips aggro away from the tank.

Speaking of which, Tank NPCs need to generate a lot more aggro. It's unacceptable that squadron tanks can't compete with a rudimentary Scatter spam, and they have absolutely no chance against a properly executed single-target DPS rotation. More often than not, when I'm running a mission as DPS, I end up either having to tank or limit my damage output which makes the run incredibly slow.

TL;DR: Tanks need better AI and/or micro controls, and they need to generate respectable amount of threat.

There's also something that bothers me about the announcement of Trusts. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, I've wanted it forever because I like soloing stuff, I like pet classes in other MMOs and I used to play SWTOR for a long time which has always had a pretty competent NPC companion system. But... as much as I love having NPC companions in the open world, I'm very concerned about putting them in dungeons because, in my mind, it implies that unless they can make the AI pass the Turing test, they will have to design the SHB dungeons in a way that makes it possible to beat with only Trustees. Which... could potentially be detrimental to the challenge level, complexity and potential to have creative combat mechanics?

Some of my favourite bosses in the game right now are Tsukuyomi, Suzaku, the final Arboretum (Hard) boss and the safety-dance-boss from Bardam's Mettle. Tsukuyomi is just such a... beautiful dance, it's so well choreographed, I LOVE the design of that fight and I wish every fight in the game was so active and dynamic. Suzaku made the background of the map an integral part of the fight, showing the solution to the positioning puzzle that has to be solved in the midst of combat, Tokkapchi forces players to constantly mind their positioning as well as the positioning of the mud slime, keeping them on their toes and with one eye always on the slime. And Bardam is unique because it's a boss fight that doesn't involve fighting and it focuses entirely on reading the battlefield to figure out where to go next.

SB introduced some really fun fights that show there can be more to combat than just fighting. Environment and background can be part of combat too, players can be made to multitask solving a riddle while keeping up their rotation, there can be complications that force someone to drop what they're doing and respond to an emergency. All things that make fights more interesting and keep players awake.

But... can this be reconciled with the limitations of the game's AI? It's not hard to make AI teammates move to a specific spot upon a specific trigger (and we saw an attempt at that during the solo Lakshmi fight) but what about mechanics that require situational awareness? Reading the fight? Predicting what's about to happen? Responding to unexpected events? Performing triage/making choices? Will the dungeons still offer groups of players new and engaging challenges, creative mechanics that keep us from going on autopilot? Or will they have to make compromises in order to make the Trustees capable of clearing those dungeons?

I just hope they are not like ff11 trust nor does it allow you to use dead,out of action,busy with story npcs

In ff11 they are soulless husk you summon with the npc personality not actually them,
I dont want to summon thancred as a companion when thancred is sneaking around the empire.

I like Excenmille in ff11 but its odd i can summon him as a child to help me fight

A healer trust is way more reliable than heals from choco companion. At least I hope so.

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Originally Posted by Dirwen

A healer trust is way more reliable than heals from choco companion. At least I hope so.

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Chocobo cant run out of MP
But a trust can

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

I hadn't heard anything about the Trust system characters being fully autonomous, without the ability to level up, do you have a reference you can give for this?

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Only "logic". Square Enix said that the trusts are supposed to ease players into new content, teach the party flow etc. That's impossible if the game will assume the players are the superiors in the new dungeon and depend on their inputs to command. Commanding them on top of doing your job is actually harder than it is to just play your role.

And if they needed to level then the system would be kind of pointless since almost no one will bother leveling their trusts to do the new content if doing it with people can give you the win faster even in a bad party or long queue.

i feel like 'trust' is more a conditional squadrons system, for those who have to do a duty trial or dungeon but doesn't have squadrons or don't want to wait for a long time for some things (hi aetherchemical research facility) but you have a mission for it i can see the Trust thing being available then.

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

FFXIV already has two seperate systems for combat npc joining us: Squadrons and Companions. Rather than adding a third, I'd prefer for all three to be merged into one master system that keeps all battle npcs under one roof.

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Yep, would prefer it all under one overarching system. A full companion system that covers our choco, GC recruits and story NPCs that trust us.

I would like it if they just do their own thing like the companion chocobo...I find it too much arsing about with GC squadrons. I think it would be good if we could level them like our chocos also.

I'm all for this if it's an expansion of the squadron we currently have. Otherwise I am of the opinion of why do we even need this? I didn't get those guys to 60 so they can sit around four out of seven days in the week like they do now. T_T

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Originally Posted by chrismercenary

How do you guys feel about the trust system? Is it going to be standalone or part of the squdron system? Or will it replace squadrons?

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Having played SWTOR that let me have companions, I would welcome being able to play MSQ alongside Y'shtola if given the chance. It can feel disappointing sometimes, having to fight these MSQ duty fights alone. SE would hardly be reinventing the wheel by adding companions in MMORPGs.

I just have a feeling it will be broken at the start.

I just need them to expand on squadrons. I worked hard to level them up. At least they can do is make them playable outside in the open world such as fates.

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Originally Posted by Derio

I just have a feeling it will be broken at the start.

I just need them to expand on squadrons. I worked hard to level them up. At least they can do is make them playable outside in the open world such as fates.

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I can't imagine they'd ever let you roll around with a Scion or Three, because goodbye immersion, but taking your Squadron members, or one at least, as a partner in the open world would be cool.

I think the best they could do with the Trust system is... once you reach a certain level of trust, let you do a short (15-60?) second phase in open world stuff where you control the Scion via the tech they've shown for the Alphinaud and Yshtola scenarios. Just a cool high-power mode for fun on a longer CD. Though it might be awkward if two people... or everyone... turns into Yshtola during an S rank hunt.

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Originally Posted by Mibgestalt

Though it might be awkward if two people... or everyone... turns into Yshtola during an S rank hunt.

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Y'shtola is overpowered. She one-hitted two of the most powerful Steppe warriors with some sort of super-holy that the Warrior of Light or the Padjala don't even seem to have an inkling of. And she did that with ridiculous ease. And did you see her heal and mana regeneration? Man. She's totally broken. Why do they need the Warrior of Light again?! Keh.

On a more serious note, I doubt they intend to make the trust system for anything more than instances. That's the role that Squadrons may receive at some point simply due to the fact that they fit more thematically...and mechanically. They already have levels and what not. But they need to fix their coding, seriously. Their AI is horrid.

To flesh out a little further on the overarching system thing, it could be done sort of like the Doman reconstruction.

So, going back to ARR when you first join a GC. They come and recruit you, because you're you they give a special area to work on.
At first it's just empty land, a rough progression might go something like:

- Add some striking dummies and a stable for your bird.
- Add some GC vendors in tents.
- Get a Huntmaster to move in.
- Get some permanent brick built facilities up.
- Unlock your squadron and move them in.
- Unlock using your squad in dungeons.
- Unlock trust system for story NPCs. (They slot into the list with your squad, with special abilities but less customization because they're story NPCs.)
- Maybe can build special facilities depending on recruited NPCs. (library for Alphi, bar for Thancred, etc.)

Overall, just one place and one set of systems for your NPCs and (to a degree) GC stuff.

Edit: I mean, going crazy, you could stick a house in there too. Let people decorate it all, add housing vendors along with hunt and GC vendors. Make a full little GC themed estate with your recruits and NPC friends visiting from time to time.

I'd hope Squadrons will be moved into a more Grand Company focused piece of content; Something like a return of Hamlet Defense I think would fit wonderfully with Squadrons. The existing Squadron content will be pretty redundant alongside Trusts though, but then again IMO it pretty much always has been... I guess it was aimed more at people leveling than people like me, but this game already has a fairly ridiculous amount of leveling content and something like New Game+ potentially adds yet another...

Hamlet Defense with Squadrons could be amazing though... Lets say four player content, plus you each bring along some of your Squad? Gameplay based around ordering your individual Squadrons around to best use them in the defense? Could be really fun IMO. The rewards and purpose of such content is the hardest part though, but that's the case with everything in XIV; That's the trouble with purely vertical based progression. Grand Company story progression would be a nice short term reward, would be nice to see a bit more than the "You sent your Squadron off on a Retainer Venture and they returned! We're promoting you!" that we currently get... Hate to say this, since I know how this place reacts to the mere mention of the game, but Yoshida should look at XIs Nation questlines and work something like that for Grand Companies... Each nation there had its own unique problems and story, their own flavour... In XIV? They have their own Glamours and that's about it. There's absolutely no flavour beyond that, the progression up the ranks is almost a complete copy/paste across all three... It's really quite sad, actually... Why doesn't the Twin Adders have a story revolving around issues in the forest? Why aren't the Maelstrom dealing with Pirates and the like? Why are all three just sitting in their barracks doing nothing? OK, lorewise stuff is going on, even with the Squadron missions we send them off on, but we don't see any of it. It's just glorified Retainer Ventures (worth noting that you can see Retainers wandering around in various places, which gives a sense that they're out there in the world when you send them off that you don't get with Squadrons) and it's utterly terrible...

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Originally Posted by Jandor

To flesh out a little further on the overarching system thing, it could be done sort of like the Doman reconstruction.

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This actually sounds quite fun and would help land and hand get some significance for yer average player. If they do plan on making an instanced housing, this would be a good way to go about it.

And seeing as it could be some sort of instanced "personal land HUB", both the Squadron and Trust system being located in it wouldn't really be lore-breaking nor cause mechanical issues either. Maybe it'll tie into the "farm" that they mentioned as well? I don't think they'd make the mistake of making limited farms like there is with houses, so instanced content like that is not unbelievable at all.

I'm hoping that trust will be a system like EQ2 which has Mercenaries. They are NPCs sometimes notable sometimes generic which level as you do can be equipped with gear. They come in different rarities the more rare they are the stronger they are. But none are so strong as to carry you in endgame content.

Anther thing that will make some of you moan they sell packs of mercs for RL $ in the typical gatcha fashion. Not as bad as it sounds since quests and rep grinding can reward some pretty strong companions.

Jeez, I forgot all about the chocobo companion. More completely dropped content from SE. I hope they don't drop Squadrons in the same way.

At the very least, I hope we can use our leveled up Squadron members as Trusts. At least then all the work we've put into them won't be completely wasted.

There are days I don't feel like doing content with other people, as strange as that sounds, yea It is an MMO and "people are the effing point". Most of the time I don't mind hopping in a PUG and meeting new people, it is fun. Personally, it'll be nice to have the OPTION to skip the 18 minute long DPS queue once in a while....

I am honestly not sure why they did not just use the Squadron system for this because this sounds a lot like it just with certain NPCs. If there is nothing more behind that, then they could just have used a new glamour options that turns your squadron into certain NPCs.

In the end this is still a MMO and I am not sure if I like it that they are part of Shadowbringers thus current content. First squadrons still cant go into every dungeon becaue of the mechanics so I kinda wonder if they made it better (and if so why not use it on Squadron?) or if they made dungeons with less mechanics so that even NPCs can go through with it, which would be horrible..

Also what if they are easily unlocked and are better than the random players? Wouldnt a lot of people just use them to run through dungeons? How would this affect the queues?

I can understand squadrons for older stuff, especially for DD players. But for new content? Shouldnt there be 100% enough people trying to do it so that they dont need them?

I will give my final judgement when its in the game, but right now I kinda wonder why we even need that...

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I'm all for this if it's an expansion of the squadron we currently have. Otherwise I am of the opinion of why do we even need this? I didn't get those guys to 60 so they can sit around four out of seven days in the week like they do now. T_T

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A brand new FFXIV player comes to the game, and somehow gets to level 15, now they're ready to do Sastasha, but don't want to play with other people because
a) They're shy
b) They're new
c) They're bad
d) They've heard about how toxic some faction of the playerbase is and don't want anything to do with them.

Regardless of why, Squadrons are not available yet, so something needs to slot into that for players who just want to play the game without involving any real people. Once that person gets a feel for the 2.0 dungeons that players cry in agony of doing anyway, they may actually learn how to play that content as it was designed, and not "the meta demands it" way.

I've pointed out before where the Squadrons break rules that players can not (eg Medica II at all levels, and are about three times more durable than the player to begin with) and this is more of the same issue. SE's solution to making the Squadrons play content was not to make them less stupid, but to make them more tanky than a fully geared synced player.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Also what if they are easily unlocked and are better than the random players? Wouldnt a lot of people just use them to run through dungeons? How would this affect the queues?

I can understand squadrons for older stuff, especially for DD players. But for new content? Shouldnt there be 100% enough people trying to do it so that they dont need them?

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That is probably the point really. It's a solution to the "toxic player" dilemma where people don't want to queue because they don't want to queue as a specific role, and have only really been carried through content. For those players, they will -never- be good enough for the asinine demands made in the party finder anyway, so why not just give them something that works as a practice. After all, the raiders have been saying all along that Stone Sea Sky is useless. Just what content will Trusts be permitted in?

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

That is probably the point really. It's a solution to the "toxic player" dilemma where people don't want to queue because they don't want to queue as a specific role, and have only really been carried through content. For those players, they will -never- be good enough for the asinine demands made in the party finder anyway, so why not just give them something that works as a practice. After all, the raiders have been saying all along that Stone Sea Sky is useless. Just what content will Trusts be permitted in?

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Why just look at the worst case? I do run content with mostly randoms and honestly I barely even saw the example you gave. I mean yes there are some people that have really high standards but most that are annoyed at others are it for a reason. Honestly if you have a healer in lvl 70 content that cant keep people alive even with small pulls and good DDs and tank then there is a problem with the healer and not the rest of the group.

The question is, are the NPCs even good enough to make up for such a bad player? Because right now if you are bad you often just get carriered through content because its not that hard. A NPC at the same time might not be able to do that. So I am not sure if this really helps bad players. Honestly imo this is more for those that are sick of exactly those bad players thus want a smoother run (if the NPCs can handle all of it) which then means that all the good people might get out of the duty finder thus more bad people are left. One can imagine how those runs will go.

On the other hands if those NPCs are too good and carry someone really bad through the content then they wont learn a thing.

It also could be that runs with these NPCs dont give exp or even other rewards like stones. But then I question, why we even need them at all because people would still need to queue for content the normal way if they want to progress their character.

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Originally Posted by chrismercenary

How do you guys feel about the trust system? Is it going to be standalone or part of the squadron system? Or will it replace squadrons?

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I'm curious about this as well. Personally, I am hoping for some type of joined system. Meaning, it's fine to have a "Squad" and a "Trust" but let's say "Squads" are only for dungeons, and Trust is only for the open world, that will seem silly in the long run. I'd love it if you are able to build out a squad via your trusts, that way it's not just in-game NPCs but also characters from the Squad. What I'm getting at is, I don't want new systems that do similar things but aren't related in any way. :)

I think the purpose is different.

Trust is there to clear MSQ duties so that you don't get stuck with 30 minute waiting times with your DPS class.

Squadrons are there to help you level your grand company rank.

Chocobo companions are there cause they are a discarded prototype of later systems (diadem, hunting logs, guildhests, normal mode trials, base classes...etc).

If it will reduce the downtime with queue times as a DPS, I'm all for it. The amount of game time lost waiting for a dungeon queue freaking sucks. I started maining tank classes because the queue times were instant. And while I don't regret it because I learned to love tanking, I shouldn't have to change my playstyle to get actually prgoress in the game the way I want to.

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Originally Posted by Renato

If it will reduce the downtime with queue times as a DPS, I'm all for it. The amount of game time lost waiting for a dungeon queue freaking sucks. I started maining tank classes because the queue times were instant. And while I don't regret it because I learned to love tanking, I shouldn't have to change my playstyle to get actually prgoress in the game the way I want to.

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I started leveling healers in HW because I hated the 3.x version of ninja. One of the reasons why I don't understand the SB hate and HW veneration I see a lot on the forums.

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

From the limited information we have now, it sounds like a glorified Squadron system. FFXIV already has two seperate systems for combat npc joining us: Squadrons and Companions. Rather than adding a third, I'd prefer for all three to be merged into one master system that keeps all battle npcs under one roof. Allowing chocobos, squadron members, and whatever trust npcs there are to join us in any content, have skill trees, customizable appearance, etc.

But for now, the Trust system isn't something I'm looking forward to. Sounds like it will be another over hyped and under delivered system that's only slightly different from what we have already.

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Would love for them to consolidate and organize these systems! Even if the trusted, squads, and companions have some rule difference they could at least not be in 8 (exaggerated lol) tabs and make it easier to manage your mini-army.

An aside, gaining trust with beastmen and then being able to hire a member from their tribe would be kind of neat. Hire a bunch of moogles or what have you :3. M-make chocobo paradise as a beastmen tribe... I will please the fat chocobo and fill my army with boco..

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Originally Posted by Balipu

Squadrons are there to help you level your grand company rank.

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Yeah that's all they are now, but they were marketed as a system to let us do dungeons without having to queue for the DF. A system that would get improvements and new dungeons added to it over time.

I'm not quite willing to call it dead content yet, but the fact that they're introducing a new type of NPC companion after updating Squadrons once once in 2 years, makes me think that they're going the way of the chocobo.

I read through the questions and answers of the event for certain journalists and there they told the people that its also on one hand like a tutorial for people that feel anxiety about joining group content and that can try it out there with NPCs but that in the end its still better to play with other people because it will be getting harder and harder to do dungeons with these NPCs.

This feels a bit strange because they have stated at the keynote that it would be for Shadowbringer content...which should be far away from beginners content thus should have people with enough experience in it. So I dont understand how this can be tutorial if this is not for low level dungeons. If it is suddenly for low level dungeon than it would make squadron useless. Also I am not sure if its a good way to teach people group work if those NPCs are not that great. I just had a squadron run as me being the healer in the vault and it was horrible because of their A.I. I cant imagine how great that would be if they dont change much (and if they do I hope they update the squadrons too..) and someone runs a higher dungeon with hard mechanics with NPCs.

It just feels so useless right now. (Final judgement of course when its out) Because if those NPCs are worse than randoms, why should someone use them for current content if they are good players? The only good thing might be the waiting time but if on the other hand it takes longer to go through a dungeon with them, I dont know if that is so much better. For newer people they would need something like that for the first dungeons. These were the dungeons I was most afraid of because it was new and the player itself is new. But if you can somehow use those NPCs there too, then why not just give the squadron the better A.I and take away the restriction with the lvl 50 job and a certain rank. This way squadron would not feel useless and later on in higher levels people can just unlock the option to glamour them into the look of certain NPCs and unlock more GC features.

Why does it matter what the NPC is characterized as? They are all jobs except Chocobo.
Unless there is actual story content or voice actors, they are just skins or glamours.

• Chocobo- You choose role then customize abilities from a predetermined set and level up the Chocobo.
• Squadrons- You choose the job or class, can glamour them and have no customizable abilities.
• Trusts- You choose a famous NPC and have no customization and perhaps don't have to level them up?.

I would like to see them consolidated as well all in one nice flashy character select menu. Have them all work the same way, before it gets kind of convoluted like glamours can be.

Rules regardless of NPC type:
Name> Job> Customize glamours> Level them up
Have chocobo squadron members that comes in actual job forms like squadrons.
Expand squadrons/Trusts to be usable in any content area.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DBuNw-dWAAAHh0j.jpg

Just a simple menu like the one above:
The main three header menus are Squadrons and Trusts and Favorites.

If you select squadrons a dropdown showing your entire squadron list is shown.
Each character has the name below it.
Above it is the NPC's job and level.

If you select trusts a dropdown showing your entire Trusts list is shown.
Each character has the name below it.
Above it is the NPC's job and level.

If you select favorites a dropdown shows groups of NPCS you normally uses as a group.
Group 1,2,3.

You can set any image of an npc or group of favorites to a hotbar for instant summoning provided there is space in the party.

If it has better AI and Soul Crystal actions, by all means, please replace Squadron.