English translation lacks charecter compared to other translations

After looking around I noticed that in other languages(dialogue wise) the npcs in game have much more character to them though the English translation makes them sound very bland or even cold, for example the French Haurchefant is much closer to the wol and expresses this. While in the English version isn't anywhere close. I kind of wish there could be better translations added rather than the npcs been stripped down charecter wise.

This has been already argued and debated repeatedly in the past and SE's own statement on the subject is that a lot of the characterization, writing and dialogue in the Japanese version simply does not translate very well due to cultural differences between Japan and other countries like the USA if a 1-1 translation was done (this is from interviews with Michael Christopher Koji-Fox, the head of FFXIV's Localization team), hence instead they 'localize' the game to make it more suitable for another country's culture.

An example is Haurchefant's affections for the player are indeed more subtle and understated in the English language version, but they are there (because for US audiences it was considered that Haurchy would just come across as more perverted instead of simply affectionate if they played his character straight like he was in the JP version) - but some of the more heavier aspects have slipped through (the 2014 New Year's Event for instance had Haurchefant, in a not very convincing disguise, outright state he wants to ride the player's character like a horse! ;)).

Either way, this is something SE have already explained about and will not be changing.

Haurchefant aside, a lot of characters are held back by the archaic English that they use in our translation. I'm not sure why they picked 1700s English, because I feel the average English speaker would have issues understanding some of the word usage. And therefore because its not modern day English I feel the older out of date English make characters seem more bland or cold when its not really the truth.

I've also heard that Alphinaud is more animated and enduring in English than in Japanese. So I guess that is something. Doesn't change the fact that we are being held back by English flippin George Washington would be rocking.

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Originally Posted by Anselmet

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Also the thing is that old fashioned English whether it be Shakespearean, Medieval, pre-war etc are actually quite popular in the media. I mean it's not difficult to find TV shows, movies or games where old English is greatly used, Downton Abbey, Game of Thrones, The Queen, Dragon Age, The Witcher etc, the list is quite large and as long as there is a market for it, companies will use it to their advantage.

Would FFXIV be better with modern English? Personally no and that's what I like about it. I hear modern English day to day so to experience a different type when playing a game is nice, and besides it's either that or we get stuck with US English in everything... we don't want the badly dubbed anime treatment for a game like this.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

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Shakespearean English is not that common in usage unless you are watching a Shakespearean play/movie. Medieval English is NOT very intelligible with modern English at all in fact, and is why we do not use it in media. Urianger is sort of Shakespearing when he speaks... if it were on steroids. However, the titles you listed are all in modern English. Downton Abbey takes place in the 1910s and the Queen just a few decades later. Game of Thrones, the Witcher, and Dragon Age is just the Queen's English. It may get tweaked in some cases, but its actually English still being spoken right now and cannot be considered an older form of English. But my point is, that ffxiv uses an English a few centuries older and that can sound overly flowery or bland which was what the op was complaining about.

Here's a little comparison for you. I'm using a scene from John Adams and they read an actual proclamation from King George III followed by the actors discussing it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JTxVHQAp8w. Now compare this to a simple scene between Aymeric to Emmanellain https://youtu.be/hl9AWSWBp94?t=1929. The English is very similar from how sentences are constructed to vocab usage. Of course this is not consistent nor is it perfect in ffxiv, but that is due to it being difficult to emulate when you are a translater pumping out hundreds of pages every few months. Now let me compare this to a scene from Downton Abbey just so everyone can see how 1700s English is quite different from the Queen's English https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHu6bmcx1cg. The speech is very posh but its not the same English that is used in the John Adams video or Aymeric's.

Of course, ffxiv does not stay in 1700s English all the time. The translators tend to fail at consistency because characters like say, Lyse, tend to speak more modernly. But I feel the majority of the cast uses vocab and sentence structures like Aymeric.

Also, I think that if we used English like Downton Abbey or the Queen, the dev team would have accomplished a better translation because simply put, its easier. I am not advocating for the use of modern day US English at all. I think that the softer sounding British English is a better fit for the fantasy genre. But the issue is because ffxiv tries to use 1700s English it puts a slight language barrier for many who play this game. While you might be good at listening to this type of English due to different exposures, my roommate is an average joe who constantly asks me 'what does this word mean'. Hell, my girlfriend who is not a native born English speaker at first had a hard time with ffxiv's English. She is now a pro at it, but it takes some exposure. But because we are using an English that is three centuries old, it can make them sound bland. That is my point and ultimately the ops issue.

Perhaps you just hear English a certain way and that's your perception of it, which is fine. I mean my examples that I provided are ones where I can really hear subtle differences which either are not in much use any more or are limited to certain areas. I noticed you said that GoT, The Witcher, Dragon Age is the Queen's English, but that's not completely true. There are a multitude of dialects throughout the said titles that they do not fall under the Queen's English rule, after all the UK has more than one or two accents. The likes of Cersei or Morrigan speak nothing like the Queen, the only thing that someone may think they do is in the way they deliver their words. Downton Abbey also has a certain type of elucution when it comes to English because of the period it is set in was greatly influenced by social class/standing, these days that's less so the case. The show definitely does not represent actual more modern English though, and the Queen's English itself is much different to what you'd find on the street.

I understand what the OP was saying, and that the way the characters are delivering their speech doesn't always translate their emotion, but we also need to consider that it can be intentional because of cultural differences. So yes some regions may expect more emotion whilst others will find it comfortable, I'm more the latter but that's just me.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

This has been already argued and debated repeatedly in the past and SE's own statement on the subject is that a lot of the characterization, writing and dialogue in the Japanese version simply does not translate very well due to cultural differences between Japan and other countries like the USA if a 1-1 translation was done (this is from interviews with Michael Christopher Koji-Fox, the head of FFXIV's Localization team), hence instead they 'localize' the game to make it more suitable for another country's culture.

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Okay, I didn't know SE admitted that, but... I call this statement they made simply idiocy.
->I'm a German-player who uses a native dub for the game - and when I compare stuff we know from the Japanese version with our German texts, then the devs ARE able to translate the story pretty solid. So, I see no reason for doing an odd job in case of the English version, when German and English share noticeable phrases / word-puns.

Like a FC-comrade once said (German player who prefers playing the game in English): It feels like the authors behind the E-version have written their own story.

Okay so I feel you don't understand what I am saying. There is a significant difference between early modern English (the John Adams clip I showed you) and modern English (everything basically after the 1800s). Queen's English, along with any dialect within England, American, Australia etc spoken today are all modern English. While you are correct that there are different dialects that are being used in GoT or the Witcher, it does not change the status that they are using a modern English. Of course, not everyone in ffxiv sounds like Aymeric. Limsa Lominsa is a good example, however, they are trying to mimic a style of 'pirate English' which I am not entirely sure ever existed.

Just fyi, this isn't something that I am just hearing, this is something that I actually actively study. This is from a historical stand point, not just this is my ears. And as for the Queen's English, it is an upper class form of English that is used in Downton Abbey and GoT. I never said that ffxiv or these shows used it excusively, so I am not sure why you are bringing this up. I used it because it is one of the most common English language styles that is used in your examples. Also the Queen's English is also known as Received Pronunciation which is known to be spoken by the upper class, or how you would put it social class/standing. So yes, those in Downton Abbey speak received pronunciation, for example. Also I've used actual documents written in Revolutionary era with words and phrases that are used in ffxiv in those videos. I can even link a video that goes on about tyranny and calamities put in such a way that you might think that the devs actually plagiarized.

Don't get me wrong, I find the translation fine. Adequate, even. But because of the large amounts they have to translate they should not have used early modern English. They should have used the English style in your examples. Once again, early modern English does not equal modern English. Queen's English or any dialect being used since the 1800s is modern English. The closer we get to today, the more comfortable the listeners will be. Also, because the type of documents I read daily, I am very comfortable with early modern English and I can sense it a mile away when people try to emulate it.

Ah what I meant wasn't really aimed at phrases that could be hard to translate more emotions And such (the horse thing made me laugh when I first read it) there are seven quests where npcs were written to be sad about something or angry yet the dialogue reads as if they do not care instead of portraying thier emotion.

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Originally Posted by Anselmet

Don't get me wrong, I find the translation fine. Adequate, even. But because of the large amounts they have to translate they should not have used early modern English. They should have used the English style in your examples. Once again, early modern English does not equal modern English. Queen's English or any dialect being used since the 1800s is modern English. The closer we get to today, the more comfortable the listeners will be. Also, because the type of documents I read daily, I am very comfortable with early modern English and I can sense it a mile away when people try to emulate it.

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Very little of the English used in FFXIV is Early Modern English. A few characters use some variant of that - Urianger being the prime offender - but the vast majority of characters in the game use modern English with a few archaisms here and there.

As a non-native speaker of English I have no problem understanding any of the English in the game - except for some of Urianger's speech which sometimes can be problematic to comprehend.

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Originally Posted by Anselmet

The closer we get to today, the more comfortable the listeners will be. Also, because the type of documents I read daily, I am very comfortable with early modern English and I can sense it a mile away when people try to emulate it.

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Reading what you may think is modern English is always not the same as hearing it day to day, which was my point. Also it being comfortable again varies greatly amongst regions so some actually already feel it's comfortable as a listener, and that's how I feel about it. Though definitely i appreciate some players don't feel that connection and may think it coming across a little detached from the character.

Essentially it probably really wouldn't matter what kind of English is used as it's the choice of vocabulary that often makes it stand out more as something different or even peculiar to what some listeners may be used to. Although that can happen anywhere in the world where certain words are more prevalent or seldom used than others

There is nothing wrong with the English version, I feel it's done very well. Plus we know that things are checked over thoroughly, well almost. They admitted to messing up Haurchefant's character a bit, but we all still loved him.

The best example I could probably give for a really good translation is probably Middy's speech when we first meet him. It was crafted in a way to give us all the info the Japanese version gave, but the way you'd kinda expect from a millennial old dragon. Here English was full of flavor and the Japanese version was dull. Plus all the pop culture references are cute, like the Simpsons reference in Kugane, lol.

One of the bigger issues with language is understanding it, too well. As native English speakers, we've heard certain commonalities over and over again that they just feel dated or boring after a while, no matter how accurate they are. But since our understanding of other languages is limited, usually, we tend to like those better, because we are more interpreting what is being said over the literal translation. And understanding multiple languages help you see how other languages are just as dull as English, lol; their words just sound cooler at times.

Also regardless of what anyone thinks I like the English version, is every performance 5 stars no, but it's not, "so horrible you need the hear the voices in Japanese", I mean have you heard Susano, lol. Hey plenty of people on this forum, mostly French and German, admitted to preferring the English version over their native laguage.

I find the English versions amusing, it just sounds kinda funny but works in its own way. The Japanese versions are very theatrical and makes the plot seem more serious.

I run my main character on JP cutscenes, and my alt on ENG cutscenes.

I have to agree with a former statement made here. I'm currently playing the story again, this time on the EN client. While I'm quite fluent in English, I noticed I oftentimes had trouble reading the npc dialogue. Sometimes it's the slang, sometimes it's the Old English. I would welcome it if they could make the English more modern.

I disagree, at least from what I've seen of leveling one character each in the JPN version and the ENG version. The ENG seems more often to have... more character than the JPN, at least.

I'll admit though, Haurchefaunt is like three totally different people between JPN, ENG, and FR. Iirc, on meeting him in one, I thought he was fairly nice, another Machiavellian, and in the third... possibly psychotic.

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but the vast majority of characters in the game use modern English with a few archaisms here and there.

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PRAY, TELL ME MORE

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Originally Posted by Anselmet

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idk, if you went to school in NA and you paid any amount of attn in high school English and even middle school English classes you should be able to understand things clearly. They don't really change it up too much, they just tend not to use a lot of modern slang or shorthand. Urianger is also not Shakespeare on steroids lol he is much easier to understand for the layman. As someone who has a degree in Literary Criticism I do have a bias as I can read anything from Chaucer to Rowling with ease, but I have never been asked what a word means nor have I met anyone who has struggled with the dialog. It's just more formal than anything which is to be expected when dealing with dignitaries as we do in game.

I honestly think I speak in a more complicated fashion irl than the characters do in the game due to my education, as with those in the circles I run. Even in my guilds, I am far more likely to be asked what a word I used means, than one Y'shtola used. They do use uncommon words but definitely not ones that are undecipherable, especially when in context, unless you are not a native speaker.

But at what the OP is getting at is that the dialog is flat compared to others. And it is, quite. They did address this, especially in the case of Haurchefant because they did get tons of flak for it. And while they did say there is much lost in translation, they would not drastically change a character again. If memory serves Koji got into quite a spot of trouble after the changes in Haurchy were brought to Yoshida's attn.

I also think a lot of it has to do with the voice actors they hire. You can most definitely tell they are just there to collect a paycheck. It is really flat and lacking. Idk if the pay or working conditions are bad, but they seem to mostly phone it in.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

idk, if you went to school in NA and you paid any amount of attn in high school English and even middle school English classes you should be able to understand things clearly.

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One thing I forgot to add in my previous post is that in my opinion, the EN version is the international version and not only the "NA" version. We can see this as the official website even has different EN versions tailored to different english speaking countries. I remember when I was in middle school I'd use FFX to improve my English, so the spoken dialogue in FFX was a lot 'simpler' (since I wasn't even fluent in EN back then). FFXIV is very text heavy, especially ARR which has less voiced cutscenes in the msq than the 2 expacs. It's not that people cannot understand it per se, it's more that the swollen language gets 'annoying', so you'd rather skip those cutscenes. This can get rather frustrating later on when there's some gap in the story because of a skipped scene.

So all in all I think being the international version of the game, the EN should be a bit more modern and easier accessable for everyone. Just because the setting of FFXIV is slightly old fashioned doesn't mean that the language has to be over archaic. FFXII has a similiar setting, yet the EN there is modern and easy enough to understand.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

There is nothing wrong with the English version, I feel it's done very well. Plus we know that things are checked over thoroughly, well almost. They admitted to messing up Haurchefant's character a bit, but we all still loved him.

The best example I could probably give for a really good translation is probably Middy's speech when we first meet him. It was crafted in a way to give us all the info the Japanese version gave, but the way you'd kinda expect from a millennial old dragon. Here English was full of flavor and the Japanese version was dull. Plus all the pop culture references are cute, like the Simpsons reference in Kugane, lol.

One of the bigger issues with language is understanding it, too well. As native English speakers, we've heard certain commonalities over and over again that they just feel dated or boring after a while, no matter how accurate they are. But since our understanding of other languages is limited, usually, we tend to like those better, because we are more interpreting what is being said over the literal translation. And understanding multiple languages help you see how other languages are just as dull as English, lol; their words just sound cooler at times.

Also regardless of what anyone thinks I like the English version, is every performance 5 stars no, but it's not, "so horrible you need the hear the voices in Japanese", I mean have you heard Susano, lol. Hey plenty of people on this forum, mostly French and German, admitted to preferring the English version over their native laguage.

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There are several bosses and characters I was surprised to enjoy far more on my alt (who I leveled on the JPN client but with English voices) compared to my main (who I'd leveled on ENG client but with Japanese voices that I'd assumed would be better). Just a lot more... character... to them, for lack of a better word.

The occasionally hamfisted use of old English in this game makes it difficult to understand at times even for native speakers and also sounds bad while simultaneously stripping the dialogue of emotion because it's so rough. Urianger is a really bad offender in this department. His dialogue is absolutely unbearable to listen to at times. The cinematic where you meet the Warriors of Darkness is a really good example of his terrible dialogue. Being in faux medieval world doesn't mean we need to use medieval language. It's not like England existed in Eorzea. Do the other clients use archaic language?

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Originally Posted by Elamys

The occasionally hamfisted use of old English in this game makes it difficult to understand at times even for native speakers and also sounds bad while simultaneously stripping the dialogue of emotion because it's so rough. Urianger is a really bad offender in this department. His dialogue is absolutely unbearable to listen to at times. The cinematic where you meet the Warriors of Darkness is a really good example of his terrible dialogue. Being in faux medieval world doesn't mean we need to use medieval language. It's not like England existed in Eorzea. Do the other clients use archaic language?

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You are lucky in that neither Urianger nor anybody else in the game speaks medieval English. Then you would really have trouble understanding it.

The main problem with understanding Urianger is not so much that he uses some archaic words and phrases, but that he speaks in a "poetic" language which makes it hard to understand no matter how good you are at older versions of English.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Urianger is a really bad offender in this department. His dialogue is absolutely unbearable to listen to at times.

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It's meant to be though. If you follow the story, you'll notice that Urianger is mocked gently but quite often by the other Scions for the way he speaks. Moenbryda quoting his summons was hilarious as it did indeed sound much more like a declaration of love rather than a simple request for aid. I do find his speech difficult to follow at times because it's flowery and often he's quoting some obscure prophesy but I wouldn't want it changed, at this point l find it rather endearing.

Haurchefant and Minfillia both came over as rather cold and flat in English. I'm not sure how Minfillia was in other languages but in English, her dialogue coupled with the extremely poor voice acting (imo) made her particularly unsympathetic as a character.
Haurchefant, I really didn't know he cared until that point in the plot where we find out just how much he does care. It's a shame the localisation team did such an extreme job on him. Was it fear that some English-speaking players might react poorly to a male NPC hitting on their male character?
I believe that Matoya made a remark about Alphinaud being effiminate that wasn't in the other language versions, too. Changes like that, which can completely change how you view a character, I'm not in favour of.

I play with the japanese voices and I've noticed that sometimes what they say doesn't match the text. That is to be expected, of course, and I won't complain too much, but sometimes I notice changes that don't really need to be there. Yes, localization and making things more understandable for differents cultures could be an argument, but one example is, in 4.2, in Asahi's flashback with Zenos.

In the original japanese, it goes something like:

Asahi: Lord Kaien is up ahead and we're having trouble with him.
Zenos: Is that person strong?
Asahi: Lord Kaien is the best swordsman in Doma.

In the english text, Zenos says "Lord Kaien?". It still serves as a segue to Asahi's next sentence, but why would that need to be changed? Is "Is that person strong?" too weird for a western audience? I would say it gives a different characterization to Zenos. Like, in the original, it looks like he doesn't care about who Kaien is, he just wants to know if he might be good sport. In english, it makes it seem like Zenos just wants to know who that guy is, which doesn't make much sense. In Zenos' Tale of the Storm it's pretty clear that he knows who Kaien is since he was sent to Doma to deal with him.

Yes, it's a small change, but it's not the only one that I've noticed (when Zenos kills himself, he says in japanese "Farewell, my first and last friend", he doesn't call WoL "his enemy" like in english). I understand the localization argument, but I fear it might be used as an excuse for the localizers to mess unnecessarily with the original story to make it more appealing to them. Their main job is to translate. If there's something that might sound weird in english, then they can change it a little bit more, but I think that should be it.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

You are lucky in that neither Urianger nor anybody else in the game speaks medieval English. Then you would really have trouble understanding it.

The main problem with understanding Urianger is not so much that he uses some archaic words and phrases, but that he speaks in a "poetic" language which makes it hard to understand no matter how good you are at older versions of English.

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Yes, true medieval or really old English would definitely be a problem for pretty much anyone. I'm just more wondering why they felt the need to go the route of using more dated English which is why I'm really curious as to if the other game translations in other languages went the same route. Unfortunately the only other language I know is Spanish so I can't check for myself. It just comes across as really awkward sometimes to have a character who otherwise speaks in perfectly modern English occasionally sticking in words or phrases that, while not necessarily extinct or impossible to understand today, are really out of the timeline with the rest of what they said. (Especially when I'm standing there in a fluffy sweater and a miniskirt with sunglasses though that's just one of the setting discrepancies I've come to love about the game.)

To clarify, I think most players with a decent grasp of the English language can understand perfectly what's being said, but it flows badly and sounds unnatural.

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Originally Posted by Solarra

Haurchefant and Minfillia both came over as rather cold and flat in English. I'm not sure how Minfillia was in other languages but in English, her dialogue coupled with the extremely poor voice acting (imo) made her particularly unsympathetic as a character.

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Minfilia was definitely bad. To the point where I have felt zero emotion for the various times she's come up in trouble. My relationship with her is like the relationship I have with my real life boss. Friendly and we joke sometimes, but I'm not about to sacrifice my life to save her. Which is a problem given that the writing implies we are the best of friends.

I'd be much happier of the devs gave players the option to have the Japanese text and script simply translated, rather than localized. I read about Koji Fox's approach, and it's a dumb one. The goal should be to ensure that the primary version of the game is the 'real' one.

Taking liberties like dumbing down entire characters because they may come off as 'offensive' to the target market is censorship. And it's not like the game would be any worse for wear if all of the liberties hadn't been taken, I can sort of understand people being discomforted, but in any case, pandering in this regard isn't good for the game. People will still buy and play it, regardless of the familiarity.

I would also just prefer to play the game in a way that's as close to the original product as possible, without all the localization. I genuinely believe that it would be conducive to a better experience, at least for people like me who are bothered by deviations from the original.