SPOILERS BELOW
Think about it for just a minute. Have you realized how often Alisae and Alphinaud make plans and do whatever it takes to bring them to fruitition and have the WoL do their bidding? A hypothetical question I pop you. The voice, likely WoD Voice, states Twin Calamities. Could it be related to the Levillaur Twins such as they'll do something really stupid on their own and cause a calamity? I don't think they're mentioning anything related to the other shard that was already destroyed according to the WoD ending in I think it was 3.5. So, what if Alisae and Alphinaud were actual villains and they've been orchastrating everything from the start of the Wagon Ride to your respective City State or Boat Ride if you started in Limsa.
I'm sure my question is completely out this world, but what if?
Let's Talk the Twins and Their End Goals
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10-11-2018, 08:32 AMAdamuKun322Let's Talk the Twins and Their End Goals
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10-11-2018, 08:39 AMDreggit
Thinking about it... Didn't the end of 4.4 show an update on Alphinaud? I don't believe that he showed any sign of distress to The Voice. If that's true that he did not... experience it, why do you think that is?
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10-11-2018, 09:02 AMAdamuKun322Isn't that a question we all want answered? Unfortunately, I do not have enough of a basis to speculate as to why. It could be he does not have the Echo, but his sister does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreggit
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10-11-2018, 09:04 AMNalien
I suspect the Calling might be specific to Eorzea and only effected select people currently there (it is the land blessed by gods after all, something special about it), Alphinaud is basically on the other side of the world so it missed him.
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10-11-2018, 09:09 AMCiliaAlphinaud was in the 4.4 stinger, but to our knowledge did not experience the phenomenon. I've been trying to find a commonality that ties the victims together... all I can gather is that they were major members of the Scions. I was trying to link the voice to the Warriors of Darkness (Arbert), but my old buddy Fenral (can I still call you Waffles?) said the voice wasn't the same as Arbert's JP voice actor, so that's ruled out as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreggit
It seems to have been a regional phenomenon targeting the major Scions...
Now, I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was Zodiark - who else but a god has the power to rip out souls? Given His weakened state at present, it would explain why it was so garbled and the phenomenon was restricted to Eorzea... but it's just a guess. -
10-11-2018, 09:32 AMNalienClearly Aulus Mal Asina survived.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
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10-11-2018, 09:34 AMTheodric
Krile is also on the other side of the world. Wasn't it mentioned that she also experienced the effects of the voice?
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10-11-2018, 09:44 AMNalien
Hmm, I'm not sure now... I thought it was just mentioned that she'd be updated on the situation since she is faffing about in Eureka, can't recall if its explicitly stated that she also heard the voice...
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10-11-2018, 10:33 AMAnonymooseI've got about 5 or 6 possible reasons why The Voice has taken who it's taken (so far), but (unless it's going to start taking others) almost all of them have exceptions already. There's not really complete coverage unless it takes a couple more people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreggit
The theory with the most coverage as it stands right now (that I've been able to come up with, anyway) is that it's isolating the Warrior of Light in an active capacity; removing the people that they would lean on in the field, right now. The people who would be ready, willing, and able to move alongside them at this exact moment in time. The order would just be net aetherial sensitivity.
"Only you... Only you..." -
10-11-2018, 10:39 AMDreggit
Well regardless of the implications, at the very least we know that the range, assuming that's a factor, is as far south west as Drybone in Thanalan and as far north east as Rhalgars Reach. Im not sure of distances but thats quite the range. Assuming my reference map is right, and distance is a limiting factor to the reach than I suppose it's make sense that our boy didn't see any side affects. But wouldn't that also mean that the person in question would need to be in some kind of proximity to the area affected if distance was a factor?
https://i.redd.it/cd82pufd6va01.png
https://i.redd.it/cd82pufd6va01.png
Map credit to Agabal of reddit. -
10-11-2018, 10:53 AMCilia
I can't find anything mentioning Krile experiencing the phenomenon. The best we have in regards to her is...
While the first sentence can be interpreted as a bit vague, the latter makes it clear they haven't been in communication with Krile since the event. In other words... we don't know if she heard it or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alianne (3.4 End Talk Dialogue - Rising Stones)
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10-11-2018, 11:12 AMTheodric
Eureka: Pyros is due to be added sometime soon so I imagine there will be some manner of clarification for players who have reached that point in the MSQ's. Or at least I'd like to think so...
The fact that she's effectively off doing her own thing may very well be what spared her. -
10-11-2018, 12:25 PMDamianFatale
The twins are NOT evil. This is just mindless speculation.
Have you even payed attention to the 2.0 quests? They are NOT evil.
I can’t believe this post actually exists. -
10-11-2018, 12:54 PMDreggitThere's allegedly someone abounds that believes Tutaru is an Empirial Spy which is equally absurd, though even still, this subforum is the place to theorycraft lore ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by DamianFatale
That in mind, while I don't believe the twins are evil I don't see enough evidence yet to expunge them from being key points in the allusion to twins.
IF we considered side quests in areas I do believe there are other twins that are round about but none of then have association with the Scions as far as I know -
10-11-2018, 01:39 PMIscah
I don't see a reason to link "the twins" with the "twin dooms" particularly. It's clear that the dooms are the world falling into either uncontrolled Light or Darkness. Opposite but equal dooms. "Twin" is a valid poetic description that could be used regardless.
Also we have some insight into their thoughts from the side stories. Alphinaud and Alisaie both get chapters in Tales from the Dragonsong War, and a shared story in Tales from the Calamity before that. No sign of any secret villainry going on.
If they were ever going to be linked to the "twin dooms" then I feel sure it would be something they did by accident, with good intentions. -
10-11-2018, 02:16 PMDamianFataleIt’s still an awful theory, because it’s not true. Their grandfather was a Scion who saved Eorzea in prayer. They followed his footsteps, and sought answers during the Coils of Bahamut. There’s no indication of them being evil at all. It would literally ruin the Scions, and make a bunch of people upset.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreggit
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10-11-2018, 06:31 PMNalien
You don't have to be evil to make a mistake... Alphinaud has already kinda gone down that path with the Crystal Braves though, granted they weren't quite a Calamity causing mistake, although it did eventually result in Shinryu being summoned/created... Heck for that matter old Grandpa effectively summoned Phoenix... Good intentions don't always have perfect results, sometimes they can lead to big problems.
That said, I doubt the twins are going to be the cause of these "twin dooms". I think they'll be tied to them, but not the direct cause. If I had to guess, Zodiark and Hydaelyn are the "twin dooms", and Alphinaud and Alisaie are going to be used to mirror that relationship. Wouldn't shock me if Hydaelyn, for example, is sorrowful at having to seal away Zodiark, the same way Alisaie is about Alphinaud running off on his own. Of course my current theory is that our mysterious Caller is Alphinaud from the darkest most terrible timeline (or lightest most terrible timeline I suppose), so having future battle hardened Alphinaud timetravel and be an unsympathetic badass (representing Zodiark, of course) that Alisaie "can't even recognise as her brother" (banish him to the Moon gurl!) would be a better fit for that idea than using the current Alphinaud. Would also set up the theme of "We'll find another way" quite nicely. We'll find another way to prevent that timeline. We'll find another way to sort out the whole Zodiark issue. etc. etc. -
10-11-2018, 07:03 PMAlleoNot only were the major scions target but also those that could be dangerous. Thancred was the one who came up with the plan and they did state that he would be of great help to do it, yet suddenly he is taken out of the picture. Ysthola and Urianger both have a huge knowledge about the Aether and world. Ysthola helped to restore the land in the burn and Urianger was about to go with them to look at Thancred and at that moment we lost another two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
I doubt that this was random and I agree with your view and also state that it was Zodiark. Arbert has no way to see what we are doing right now and there was never a hint ingame that the echo makes one able to see the future. Also he never had shown the power to rip souls out of bodies. Alphinaud might be it if he is from the future but he was not there at a time so how would he know that the people had been planning all of this right there? Also he has no echo and never seemed that powerful to do something like that (and wouldnt we recognize his voice?)
Zodiark is a powerful being and one Ascian did talk about time too. Maybe he somehow got powerful enough to at least take away the souls of certain people thus hoping to prevent something.
About OP: I kinda doubt that twin dooms means our twins. Not only would making them evil seems out of nowhere but I dont feel like they are that powerful. -
10-11-2018, 09:35 PMMetalSnakeXI1Tho if Thancred's little case with Lahabrea is a proof for anything,I don't think the twins are immune to ascian possession.Quote:
Originally Posted by DamianFatale
They're not evil that's for sure,but they can still be possessed by ascians to do their evil biddings -
10-11-2018, 09:57 PMSannaR
True the twins could be possessed, but when Thancred was we also hardly ever saw him. Though I'm not sure how well their acting chops are to keep up with the act. Specially with Alisaie and how she looks up to our character. If anyone besides Lyse would occasionally think a "What would the Wol do" type of thing it would be Alisaie. Of course right now she might also be the better of the two to get possessed, but then knowing how nosy she can get at times I think it would be a poor choice.
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10-12-2018, 08:02 AMTheodric
I don't think anybody is suggesting that Alphinaud or Alisae are 'evil'.
That doesn't mean they're incapable of being manipulated or simply making a poor choice that causes problems later down the line. In Alphinaud's case that already happened. He learned from it, though.
Previous Final Fantasy games have had protagonists do things that ended up being the wrong decision to make. It led to some pretty memorable moments - and it's certainly a lot more interesting than having the protagonists always pick the right plan and have everything work out perfectly in their favour.
I imagine it will be a theme explored during the upcoming expansion, though not necessarily with Alphinaud and Alisae. -
10-12-2018, 09:32 AMRamesses
To the OP:
Full disclosure... I'm a fan of Alphinaud, so you might consider my comments biased... or not.
Personally, I believe the twins will continue to be an integral part of this game for years to come and I actually foresee Alphy evolving into a fantastic leader of a new Sharlayan, perhaps even a protegy of Gaius... but who knows these things? His core strength is politics and he has the kind of "Beautiful Mind" that comes in very handy when analyzing mysterious knots in situations.
His twin will likely evolve into an Ambassador of sorts focusing on the protection of relics, artifacts, Echo users, rare crystals etc that are in tune with maintaining balance on Hydaelyn.
I honestly do not see them being manipulated into descending into full blown "evil"... not just because they have the family name to maintain but their evolution so far has not steered them down that path. There is a sense of enduring honour (and a genuine affection for the WoL) that I expect will sufficiently keep them on their "good" path... the meaning of good in this instance being subjective. Make an attempt on one twin's life and I expect the other twin will go Super Saiyan mode.
By the way, the twins will sprout and grow to be very tall once they hit twenty summers old... they are not "half-Lalafells" (this theory continues to come up on the forums and it cracks me into grins everytime I read this). Again, as I said before a little while ago, several people seem to have forgotten (or didn't know) that Elezen youth have very stunted growth until they reach twenty years of age. This is due to their longer lifespans than the other races; hence, they age much slower during puberty.
After that, they will sprout to their full Elezen height. -
10-12-2018, 10:03 AMGuiballad
While i think op's theory about the Twins being secretly evil the whole time is... really bad (and even worse if true) it did got me thinking about a couple of things.
Did we ever find out what happened to Tupsimati (A.K.A. Louisoux's staff)? And what did Alisae do with her grimoire since she ditched it for a rapier? Because one of those two maybe be the MacGuffin that leads into the "Twin Dooms". I'm fully ready to accept that Tupsimati was destroyed with Papalymo as it gives a nice sense of closure to Lousioux legacy but the Twins' Grimoires are also implied to hold something special. If i'm not mistaken we kinda see it being used during the Coil storyline and then it just never really comes back.
Maybe next patch we find out that Alisae's Grimoire was stolen and it kind of becomes a race against time between us and (probably) the Ascians for Alphie's so we can prevent some disastrous event from taking place. Would be an interesting lead into 5.0 instead of an outright disaster like the last two times. -
10-12-2018, 12:38 PMObsidianFire
Tupsimati was used by Papalymo to contain Shinryu and it's implied to have been destroyed at that time. At the very least, it hasn't been seen since that time. That said, Tupsimati was recovered after the battle at Carteanau, so who knows. I get the feeling the Scions and the Alliance would have searched the area the Omega/Shinryu battle thoroughly for any detritus of that fight. I'm taking the fact that it hasn't cropped up yet when Tupsimati spent all of 2.0 in Waking Sands/Rising Stones to mean that at the very least, the Scions and the Alliance have not found it yet. Weather that means someone else has it or there is nothing left of Tupsimati to find... well... there's no way to know for sure yet.
As for Alisae's Grimoire (officially know as "Adelphoi") I assume she's doing what we do with all our different weapons and just has it somewhere else on her person. Interestingly, her original aetherial blade is summoned from her grimoire. I can't in any way see here losing it given as her grimoire was made for her by Lousioux. -
10-12-2018, 03:06 PMViduEven though I dont have a theory on the twins of my own as of right now, I'd like to question this statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by DamianFatale
Following in their grandfathers footsteps to save Eorzea could still lead them down a dark and nasty road - the Garleans believe that they're saving the world aswell after all and that they are doing the right thing.
The Scions are already pretty non-existant at this point - after no one wanted to take the leadership-position we kept the name and headquarters, but not much else. Everyone is basically doing their own thing. HW (thankfully) had little to no Scion-action, because Alphinaud sucessfully ruined them at the end of ARR already.
On the topic of upsetting people: I dont mean to upset you, but I'd say that thats what we would actually need in the story.
When Alisae was sneaking behind Urianger and Urianger on the other collaborating with Elidibus, I had high hopes that one of them would turn out to be a traitor - I like both characters, but I was very disappointed when they both turned out loyal, because thats just boring. All that tension building up to end with "I was on your side all along, guys!"
Same with Thancred - all that build up only to end with "Hahah, wasnt me, I was possed!"
At this point I'd find it almost refreshing to have Alphinaud get into Garlemald and be converted to the cause of the Empire by logic and reason, not brainwash, so that when we meet him again hes not Louis perfect little grandson anymore.
Saying that no member of the Scions can ever turn to "evil" makes them all incredible one-dimensional and boring in my eyes. Your reasoning is basically a moral plot-armor and I'm not a fan of the physical one to begin with.
Every intelligent, living creature can turn to "evil" given the right circumstances. Why should the twins be any different? -
10-12-2018, 03:29 PMIscahOne of the Tales from the Calamity includes Kan-E-Senna searching for the broken staff, apparently able to sense its "aetheric currents in the air" but still having to look hard to find it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ObsidianFire
And Alphinaud and Alisaie's story that I linked earlier has some information about their grimoires:
The lorebook also gives some information on the grimoires - both are named Adelphoi:Quote:
“Even had you not gained admission to the Studium—and made me exceedingly proud in so doing—these gifts would have been yours regardless. Here—one for each of you. When read together, these two grimoires form a single tome. Provided you support one another’s studies, I have no doubt that you will soon come to understand the lessons inscribed therein.” The volumes Louisoix gave to his grandchildren scant hours before his departure were curious indeed. Crafted such that the contents of one could not be deciphered without the other, they hinted at the impish humor which danced behind the ofttimes solemn visage of Sharlayan’s preeminent sage and scholar.
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Encyclopedia Eorzea p. 193:
(Alphinaud's) Adelphoi
Alphinaud's grimoire is one of a set Louisoix crafted for his grandchildren. Alone, it enables an arcanist to channel his magicks with ease, allowing for complex incantations. When wielded in tandem with Alisaie's grimoire, however, new arcane geometries appear, and its true power is made manifest.
(Alisaie's) Adelphoi
The second of Louisoix's grimoires, Alisaie does not use it to invoke a Carbuncle, but rather summons a gleaming aetherial sword from its pages - a feat learned through her long travels, and not easily mimicked.
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10-12-2018, 05:23 PMMetalSnakeXI1If the case of Gaius/Shadowhunter taught me anything it's this:Unless you see something dies/gets destroyed on screen,most likely it survived.Quote:
Originally Posted by ObsidianFire
So who knows maybe both Tupsimati AND Papalymo survived,heck if Louisoux survived the battle with FREAKIN BAHAMUT(well as the primal Phoenix but still).....I'd say Papalymo is probably drifting in the flow of aether.I know that the mark bounding him to Lyse disappeared but I don't think thats enough confirmation for death -
10-12-2018, 05:30 PMNalienClearly Papalymo is the person doing the Calling!Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalSnakeXI1
But nah, I'd say he is dead just based off the final screen from the Stormblood credits. That was pretty much a perfect farewell, bringing him back after that would be so much worse than any of the fake outs we've had thus far.
Tupsimati I assume was burnt out during the casting. It was already damaged to begin with, add to that the fact that Papalymo was doing the same spell Louisoux attempted, albeit with far less prep time and no "Lets partially summon the Twelve to help", I could see that being enough strain on the artifact to destroy it. If they intended it to be used again, I imagine they'd have added a scene where it drops to the ground, or a scene where <insert character here> finds it. Just look at Nidhoggs Eyes, they weren't very subtle with those being recovered by the Warriors of Darkness. It could still be kicking around, but given nobody seems to care about it, despite us at one point having to guard it from an Ascian... It's been forgotten if nothing else...
Come to think of it, wasn't there some dialog early in Stormblood where they mention going over the wall looking for Papalymo or something? Could have sworn there was a "We looked by found nothing ANYWAY NEW EXPANSION" moment early on... -
10-12-2018, 05:43 PMMetalSnakeXI1Well I wouldn't want the impact of Papalymo's death be gone,I'm just speculating cuz even if he came back I'd imagine there will be a catch just like Louisoux.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
As for Tupsimati.....depends if the upcoming expansion has some calamity-esque events similar to the summonings of Bahamut and Shinryu. And knowing what the likes of Zenos are capable of(even if he lost his body to Elidibus and is now using the body of a random Elezen)....I'd assume the endgame next time would be much more calamitous than Shinryu's summoning -
10-12-2018, 10:02 PMSeraphorGiven that we now know the truth behind the founding of the empire and its true motives, I don’t think there’s any scope for ‘logic and reason’ to convert Alphinaud to their cause.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidu
Unless you’re counting his support of the Populares and of overthrowing the current regime to rob the Ascians of their influence, which is pretty much what’s already in the pipeline and is still in line with his character anyway.
As for their stance on eikons, we’re all on the same page there anyway, no one wants eikons, it’s just that the empire blames everyone else for them when they’re also partially responsible, and wants to control everyone with an iron fist to prevent them. -
10-12-2018, 10:17 PMMetalSnakeXI1The empire is hugely responsible for the recent surges in Primal summoning throughout XIV ever since Nael Van Darnus's meteor project.Cuz in their abuse towards the beast tribes they just caused them to pray to their primals even more than they already been doing.The Black Wolf legion in ARR abused the Amaal'ja,Ixali and Kobolds just to power up the Ultima Weapon with the essence of the three primals and Illberd's summoning of Shinryu wouldn't have been a thing in HW had they not abused Ala Mhigo/Gyr Abania so much...which later in SB would cause the summoning of Lakshmi....not to mention Asahi's fanatical obsession with Zenos and how Elidibus took advantage of that to turn Yotsuyu into TsukiyomiQuote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
Unless Alphinaud and the Populares succeed in changing the way Garlemald is being ran,which is already hard to do with how tight the Ascian's grip on it's government is right now,The empire will always bear at least 80% of the blame so I'd say they're more than partially responsible.
True we both want the same thing.....but the current government's method of achieving went a little too overboard especially when Zenos became a viceroy and he ended up doing what Nael did even if on a much lesser scale for his own gains -
10-12-2018, 11:19 PMJonnycbad
This is just a crack-pot theory, but the whole theme of FFXIV is Light<->Dark and how they're intertwined. The whole concept of ying and yang is that there's a spot of darkness in light and there's a spot of light in the darkness. This is also referenced by how even among the Ascians, there is one (Elidbus) amidst their ranks who isn't exactly our enemy. I wonder if there is an agent of darkness amidst the ranks of the Scions to be the counterpart of Elidbus (a sympathizer who is working against as a mole). I always thought it was Urianger but he turned out to be a red herring in 3.3. I wonder if it won't be the twins. I can imagine the twins being Ascians all along who have been guiding our actions from the start. Then, when we fight them at the end of 6.5 or whatever they fuse into Meltigemini from FF9 >:D
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10-13-2018, 02:05 AMRemediThat is actually wrong, It was Garuda that forced the captive Amaal'ja and kobolds to summon forth their primals so that she could drank their aether and become stronger to face Gaius, but then she played in his plan and he used the ultima weapon to to conquer them.Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalSnakeXI1
That said Primal summoning will happen anywhere there are struggles as evidenced by Leviathan and Titan who were summoned by territorial struggles with Lominsa -
10-13-2018, 07:28 AMCilia
Let's clear up a few things.
The Empire is indirectly responsible for all the primal summons in the Sixth and Seventh Astral Eras; prior to the attack on Silvertear, there were no documented instances of primal summons anywhere during the Sixth Astral Era. It is not directly responsible for all primal summons, but its activities do agitate people into summons, and its machinations have directly lead to at least one summon (Tsukuyomi).
Anyone with a lick of reason can't be swayed to the Empire's cause via reason and logic because the Empire's logic is circular. "We conquer other countries because they summon eikons, which they summon because we try to conquer them." Even Gaius figured it out - he wouldn't march on Eorzea again after the Calamity until he had a way to permanently deal with the primals, as he was aware the locals would summon in response to such aggression. (Lahabrea was only too happy to provide him with what he sought, and the rest is history.)
Let's try not to make this another Garlemald debate... please? -
10-13-2018, 07:38 AMMetalSnakeXI1Oops...sorry,it's been forever since I watched that scene so I mixed up some detailQuote:
Originally Posted by Remedi
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10-13-2018, 08:11 AMSeraphorAnyone with a lick of reason... and yet we continue to bomb the Middle East.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
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10-13-2018, 08:19 AMCiliaDragging real-world politics in here? Ooooh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
A lot of people are either unaware of that operation or openly disagree with it. I happen to be one of them. Unfortunately, like in Garlemald the common people don't hold any real power in their government... or we might not have a plausible perjurer now seated on the Supreme Court.
... but that has no bearing on this discussion. Please, drop it. -
10-13-2018, 03:49 PMSeraphorIt has everything to do with this discussion. My intention isn't to segway into a real life political debate, but to draw the obvious parallel that clearly inspired the story, to illustrate it's implications in the world FFXIV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
Acts of 'terrorism' commited by the empire/American armed forces has driven otherwise peaceful people to go to desperate and extreme measures to do what they see as defend themselves from and/or retaliate against a foreign oppressive force.
If people in the west can support the wars in the middle east through 'logic and reason', then it stands to reason that Garlean citizens could do the same.
This 'logic and reason' wouldn't be enough to convince all Garleans that their actions in Eorzea are wrong. It would take the revelation that they're puppets to the Ascians to do that. -
10-14-2018, 05:39 AMCiliaYou might have made your point a bit clearer... but I digress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
What's being used to sway the populace is emotion, not logic or reason, in both cases. Fearmongering, specifically. (Zenos might have been batshit crazy otherwise, but he was spot on in saying the Garlean war machine was ultimately driven by fear.) I don't want to get too off-topic, so I'm not going to delve into the differences.
And of course logic and reason wouldn't be able to convince the Garlean people their actions are wrong. Hearts aren't moved by logic, after all. Were I a betting man (and I assure you, I am not) I'd wager some of the more staunch Imperials wouldn't abandon the cause even if they knew their actions were all in service to a lie - they'd just try to shake off the Ascian yoke and continue onward. -
10-14-2018, 06:41 AMRemedi
It's a lòie yes, but it has a truth in the fact that primals do kill the enviroment by draining the aether, as such it might aswell be a truth for them