1s - belt,acc
2s - head, shoes, hands
3s - head pants
4s - chest
5s - weapon, weapon coffer, mount, minion.
More bosses more fun xD?
5 floors each raid tier in 5.0?
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07-22-2018, 08:45 AMgiwaman5 floors each raid tier in 5.0?
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07-22-2018, 08:54 AMMatrinka
With the trend of getting less each patch... I expect them to reduce each raid tier to 3 fights instead of 4.
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07-22-2018, 09:09 AMAyer2015
How about a raid that is actually structured as one, rather then just 4 trails called a raid
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07-22-2018, 09:51 AMAmeelahttps://res.cloudinary.com/lmn/image...ault-3fec1.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Ayer2015
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07-22-2018, 09:56 AMRamothElggur
@Ameela I dunno but this feels more like a "Lets make something big and cool looking but people with no brains can beat it in less then a day" kind of content.
The latest Raids are no where the the expetations people want. Coil set the bar quite high back in the day with raid designs etc., nothing is anywhere near Coil in terms of Difficulty and Design (difficultie is arguable cause some fights like in Alexander are quite tough). Ever since SB we get tossed straight into the fight. No more little paths or mini bosses before the actual boss fight ( Aside from alexander normal perhaps but that was just flat out boring and not challenging at all).
i honestly do not understand why those Floors are still getting Called Raid, cause they are not, it is nothing but 4 Fights we get each new tier, 5 if you include the savage version of the 4th floor.
Sure we also got those ultimate fights but what happens after you beat them? Those fight will get repetetive over time just like the Floors or Primal fights. ( and dont come at me with beat the fight, 99% of the player community has No interest in those fights ore are incapable of pressing buttons in the right order so you expect them to beat the ultimate fights.... or you wanna do them with them in PF? no way!). Calling them Raids is just plain out wrong.
What they really need is actual a proper Raid design just like the 24 brain dead stuff we get every odd numbered patch like mentioned above, but this will never happen because they simply cater more torwards the None raid community and try to make them happy, hence watered down diffiult and desing in litereally every content. It takes less then a day for the Elite playes to beat the latest tier, roughly a month for the more active raiders, but even after the second month the majority of people beat the fight and that even without playing their class correct since its gotten so easy. It is simply way too fast!
For me personally i am having the same problem many others do, which is continueing this game. I promised the raid group to stay around for 4.4 but if this is just as boring and short like the previous raids and the "fan fest" does not show anything cool and exciting for the next expansion, i will doubt that i will continue to stay subbed. I will probbaly just move on and search for something else. -
07-22-2018, 12:54 PMJovenI agree, we need more pants for our heads.Quote:
Originally Posted by giwaman
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07-22-2018, 04:12 PMRufalusI mean it's spread across the gaps more instead of piling everything onto one day, but 4.3x as a whole was already looking like the biggest patch cycle we've ever had before we found out that the MHW crossover stuff is also coming this patch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matrinka
4.3 - 4.36 is the following....
> MSQ
> 1x normal dungeon
> 2x trials and 2x Ex trials (Tsuku, Ratholos)
> Eureka Pagos zone
> 100- floor Deep Dungeon
> Alliance Raid
> Ultimate Raid
> Custom Delivery client & sidequests
> Doman Reconstruction & sidequests
> Hildibrand quests
> Beast tribe quests
> Other sidequests (four lords)
> Other updates (borderland pvp changes, Feast, squadron dungeons, DF choco races, etc)
Shrinking content is a myth; 4.3x is unusually large. However judging from the last Live Letter, 4.4x patches won't have as much stuff, but it's not a trend. That was a big one to follow... Ultimate + Deep Dungeon + Eureka + MHW was very generous in addition to all the usual stuff.... -
07-22-2018, 04:37 PMFourbestintoner
what next? 8man being voiced like the 24man? crazy talk
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07-22-2018, 05:01 PMNezerius4.3x is unusually large? Let's compare it to the entirety of 3.3:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufalus
- MSQ
- Two expert dungeons (Sohr Khai, Hullbreaker Isle HM)
- One normal and one EX trial (Final Steps of Faith)
- Palace of the Dead (First part, to gauge its popularity)
- Fields of Glory (Shatter) frontline map
- Alliance Raid (Weeping City of Mhach)
- The Aquapolis
- Warring Triad sidequests
- Hildibrand sidequests
- Anima sidequests, and its next step
- Beast tribe quests (Moogles)
- Raid Finder dyea
- Other updates (Gnath/Vanu gear added to the respective beast tribes, Flowerpots/Flower vases, more housing wards, new DoH/L gear, dyeable Dreadwyrm gear, etc.)
If 4.3 is the unusually large patch, than what do you make of a patch that's pretty much equal in size (or larger, since I don't really agree with throwing a crossover event as being part of the actual patrch)?
The difference being that 3.3 wasn't nearly as spread out as 4.3x will be. -
07-22-2018, 10:45 PMRufalusCompare Eureka Pagos to Anima saga. One is a complete zone with its own enemies and mechanics and music, the other is just quests redirecting you around old content. It's like comparing a new raid to a weekly quest that sends you back into an old raid. These Eureka zones in 4.x series are massive scale content which don't have a parallel in 3.x. I was quite surprised that they managed to keep that going alongside a new deep dungeon instead of just doing one or the other. Next the MHW content you say doesn't count, but it's real content that took a greater than zero amount of dev time so I feel it's relevant when arguing the devs aren't just being lazy and producing less and less stuff. It's a permanent new normal trial and extreme trial with a lot of new rewards attached (mount, minions, gearsets, housing item) not just a typical small scale event. We've dropped one normal dungeon but gained Ultimate raid compared to 3.x patches. I think the devs are doing fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezerius
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07-22-2018, 11:29 PMVaerTBH the only thing pulled out was one dungeon, aquapolis (there's already two of these areas anyway in SB and it's being updated next patch) in exchange for the 2nd area of eureka and an ultimate trial. Honestly I think they put more effort into the Namazu tribe than moogles. (You can do them as a gatherer in addition this time) The story this time for HoH is lame, and PoTD actually had a somewhat functioning one but wasn't that great either. The hard floors for PoTD didn't release until 3.35 so they spread that patch out, too. They also added a ton of housing wards in the previous 4.2 patch. For PvP, they already added Rival Wings, a new map and spending most of their time making the pvp team thing/tournament. If we aren't counting MHW collab, it's a wash to me. It's mostly the same stuff, just spread around. Depends on how much you value that extra dungeon I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezerius
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07-23-2018, 01:12 AMJeykama
If they could make something with the grandeur of the 24Ms with its contiguous location and scenery, but bump it to Savage level for the proper raid, that would be A-OK.
More than 4 actual encounters would be icing on the cake, but I always felt the instancing of the raids lacked feeling that you're fighting in an actual place. The Coils and Alexander somewhat made up for it by having parts you travel through and see the sights, but Omega was nothing but arenas. Sure there was the solo sections, but there nothing to gawk at there. -
07-23-2018, 01:26 AMAmeela
They'll never do "proper raids" with Savage difficulty as that would mean having to do fights you've already beaten every time you want to prog.
People already complain a lot about having to do Kefka before being able to go into God Kefka, imagine if they also had to do Phantom Train, Chadarnook and Guardian.
And you can say that it's already how it works but at least with how it is now you can beat the early fights and then save the one you're progging on for the next day or something, so it's not as draining as doing them all in a row. -
07-23-2018, 01:32 AMJeykamaOf course it couldn't be the same exact system as 24Ms where you always start from the beginning. 24Ms work on a completely different lockout premise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ameela
Programmers are able to set up checkpoints where if you progress in a raid to a certain point, you can re-enter from that point later. Not going to say it's not hard to set up, but WoW large-scale dungeon raids are like that and those actually feel like a huge place. That's the feeling I miss (though not WoW) -
07-23-2018, 01:35 AMNezeriusI was pointing out that calling 4.3x "unusually large" was odd, and compared it to a HW patch with the same number.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaer
I dunno, I felt like the gathering part of the dailies was pretty basic, similar to how the Ixali dailies sometimes had players gathering stuff before the crafting part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaer
I forgot that floor 51-200 was actually added in 3.35, so I can add that to the list. I also never said that SE didn't spread out content in 3.3x, just that it wasn't nearly as spread out as 4.3x. I'm also including content after the initial 3.3 patch (3.35/3.38), because that's what Rufalus was doing as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaer
They also added a new PvP mode in the 4.2x patch, with the Feast being released in 4.21.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaer
What I'm getting at is that the amount of content isn't shrinking as much as it seems, but the amount of content delivered with each individual patch certainly has shrinked (or in other words, it's been spread out over the initial patch/subsequent 'mini'patches a lot more).
I also agree that the 8-man raids should really feel more like raids, instead of teleporting from fight arena to fight arena. I imagine this is the case for Omega because they spent a lot of resources on developing the Alliance raids. -
07-23-2018, 01:56 AMAyer2015pretty sure the thread is referring to 8man raids....Quote:
Originally Posted by Ameela
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07-23-2018, 01:59 AMVaerIxal was more of a crafter thing with a side gathering option. Namazu you can actually just do it on gatherer completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezerius
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07-23-2018, 02:35 AMRufalusThe overall amount of content across the patch(es) is more meaningful. Spreading it more evenly doesn't mean there is less overall... yeah day 1 of the major patch has less, but then the follow up minor patches have massively more than they used to, because it was spread out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezerius
4.36 has Eureka Pagos and MHW content. 3.36 has... there wasn't one, they didn't have a x.x6 patch in that cycle, it was more of a gap. You have to compare 3.3x as a whole to 4.3x.
Taken as a whole I think it didn't even shrink or remain the same. It was actually an increase as I already explained. The amount of work put into Eureka Pagos is hugely more than what Anima quest provides because it is new original content rather than farming old existing content. It's a complete new zone (not the same one as anemos) with new mechanics, enemies, music, quests.
That's why I say 4.3x is unusually large for a patch. You have to look at the amount of work put into creating the content, not just the number of bullet points. They won't all be like this one, it's an anomaly, but these large patches still happen so it's disingenuous for people to say content is on a downward spiral. A patch would usually just have one large-scale piece of content that can be farmed for a lot of hours in addition to all the regular updates, but this time we got more than one (deep dungeon and eureka back to back) while also fitting in a collab of larger scale than most (new original Trial battle, not just farming old fates like yo kai was). It's a bigger dev effort to make new things than it is to reincentivise old things. -
07-23-2018, 03:54 AMSove92This is how Coil and Alexander worked before RF was released. The problem is that it isn't friendly to replays. You could not replay a Coil fight in a given week until 2.45, and for that, you needed a player without a weekly clear of that particular fight. When RF released, they got rid of the checkpoints, making replaying easy, but kept the same progress system for the loot lockout and to make you do the fights in order, which is also the reason you lose all rewards from earlier fights, if you skip them, as the game doesn't check the clear status of individual fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeykama
The people who do these fights more than once a week for various reasons, would not be particularly happy, if the ability to replay the fights was restricted again. Alternatively SE could allow you to start from any checkpoint you have met, but that would likely need a lot of work on DF and might be a horrible list to choose from. -
07-23-2018, 04:05 AMNezeriusThat's your opinion on it. There's plenty of people (me included) who don't share that same opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufalus
It's also very clear that spreading content like this is to entice players to subscribe every month between every major content patch.
Which is exactly what I did? I compared all the content from the entirety of 3.3x to your list of content of 4.3x. 3.36 didn't exist because SE didn't spread content around nearly as much as they do now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufalus
Also, the MHW crossover isn't developed as 4.36 content. It's crossover content that happened to be ready for 4.36.
Let's not forget that Diadem (both versions) was SE testing the waters. And while it ultimately wasn't as successful, they definitely learned from it with Eureka. This isn't some magic content that's never been seen before, its groundwork can be traced back to HW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufalus
On the other hand, we've also lost 100 floors in the new Deep Dungeon. And while the story of Palace of the Dead wasn't too deep (pun not intended), it was miles better than the 'story' we got with floor 1-30 in HoH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufalus
Also, again, the MHW cross-over isn't specifically developed for 4.36, so it's a bit silly to take that into account. It's not even part of the 4.3 mini-site, which showcases all the content of the entire patch.
Personally, I'd rather have the initial major patch have the majority of the content. I prefer being able to decide on what content I'd want to run, instead of SE telling me "You can do x content now, y content in a month, and z content in two months."
I'll agree that it was obviously different content to the Anima questchain, but Eureka also caused its relic questchain to be delayed by quite a while. The (almost non-existent) Anemos weapon's story also can't really be compared to the Anima one, but we'll have to wait and see if they actually do anything with it in Pagos. -
07-23-2018, 04:33 AMRufalusI directly quoted the parts I was replying to. You said the amount of content into each individual or 'mini' patch is shrinking, so I said that is not meaningful. They just shifted the distribution around; the meaningful comparison is the whole patch cycle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezerius
I'm not sure it's an opinion. Isn't it just a fact to say the overall amount of content is the meaningful metric here? You can't pinpoint one random day and say the content released on that day is representative of the state of the game. One date might only have hotfixes, another date might have content. So we look at each 3-4 month cycle as a collective and evaluate that. I don't think we disagree with each other on that, just a misunderstanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezerius
The number of floors is just a design choice, somewhat informed by player feedback of wanting to get to the challenging stuff faster. They could generate 700 floors if they wanted, it's mostly just a question of how much repetitive filler should there be before the hard top floors, how long should runs takes. You're right, the story was better in PotD, more developed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezerius
MHW collab content was created by the same FF XIV dev team as the other FF XIV content. I don't see why we should pretend it does not exist when discussing the amount of content being released in a certain timeframe. I'm just trying to give fair credit where it's due and dismiss falsehoods about the devs getting lazier over time. The quality is subjective but if we're discussing quantity of original content, I don't think it's accurate to say it's falling off in a significant way as the cynics suggest. -
07-23-2018, 04:58 AMNezeriusI probably should've been a bit more clear. By each "individual" patch, I meant the initial major patch. (3.3, 4.3 etc.).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufalus
The way you worded it makes it sounds that you find the overall content of the patch to be ''more meaningful", that's an opinion. We've both been looking at an entire patch (3.3x and 4.3x), and both have patches and mini-patches that are just as meaningful as the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufalus
Except the first 100 floors progressed the PotD story with (almost) every set of 10 floors. With HoH, that only happened 3 times. That still means that more development time was put into PotD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufalus
It was developed by the same team, but that still doesn't mean that it's developed specifically for patch 4.36, it just happened to be ready to be released at that time. If it were developed specifically for patch 4.3x, it'd have been shown on the mini-site.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufalus
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07-23-2018, 05:30 AMRufalusYeah, I think you're right. HoH is less than PotD by those measures. I feel like it had more original enemies too with the floor 50 and 100 bosses appearing as enemies for the first time, whereas HoH's only sort-of-original boss design was floor 30 but is clearly a reskin of Titan. I think the gravedigger type enemies in PotD's higher floors were an original enemy at the time too, which later got reused in the north section of anemos at night, near the monoeye.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezerius
Ok yeah I see what you mean about MHW. Yes, it's an anomaly which happened to land here because that's when it was ready. Eureka would have started from earlier patches too if it was ready when they originally projected, so it was delays that caused some recent patches to be unusually well stacked. I think overall though, the team seem to be working about as hard as they ever were, apart from way back in 2.x through 3.0 when they overestimated the challenge and almost killed themselves trying to deliver on promises. They ended up doing unsafe business practices working overtime every night for too many weeks in a row until mental exhaustion. So they were all owed a vacation after that, delaying patch 3.1. Now they have a more optimised workflow and aren't going to promise crazy things like adding jobs in patches between expansions for sanity reasons. -
07-23-2018, 10:24 AMBourne_EndeavorNo, no. That wouldn't be the standard SE Touch™. Instead!Quote:
Originally Posted by Matrinka
- Two fights will release at Alte Roite/Catastrophe difficulty
- Another fight will release six weeks later
- The last fight of the tier will release a month before 5.1
They don't want to overwhelm us with all that content at once, after all.
If you mean to insinuate content is better spread out, I have to disagree. Speaking only for myself, I find I am less engaged with staggered releases than I would be otherwise. Why? I prefer to set my own pace. Instead, I'm left with an ever frequent feeling of "That's it?" Conversely, in say, 3.3, I had tons of things to keep me occupied, and once everything inevitably winded down, 3.4 wasn't too far off. What irks me about this change in release is two fold; it takes away any agency. The devs are telling me "Now, now. This is too much. We'll let you play with the new toys when we think you're ready." And I, personally, believe it a disingenuous ploy to try keeping people from unsubbing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufalus
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07-23-2018, 01:56 PMRufalusNah I just meant the amount of new content that exists is more important than what dates they choose to release stuff on, like it's all still there. To be honest though I do actually prefer this method of bulking up the mid cycle patch instead of blowing everything out the gate and then having a few empty months for people to unsub. If that helps keep people around and the DF more active in the mid cycle then it works out for me, I was never going to unsub anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
Their reasoning is pretty legit, like how much stuff would be lost in the shuffle, how many people would skip farming tsukuyomi weapons if you could also get empyrean weapons and pagos weapons starting from that same day. You can imagine people complaining about Trial weapons being obsolete on release even for non-raiders when we can just get the 5-slot Pagos weapon instead. If it's secretly a ploy to keep people subscribed though it's hard for me to be outraged about a company trying to be successful.
Now August is filled with Pagos + MHW + The Rising, and September sees the next major patch with Omega, Suzaku, etc. That's kind of nice having a steady flow of things to do right up to the month preceding the big patch.
edit: eureka benefits from being splintered to its own patch. you don't want to come into eureka late because you were too busy doing MSQ and other content, only to find everyone has outleveled you and it's harder to get a group now. people who have less time to play per week are able to get the other content cleared before eureka is released and then have that window free to start farming at the same time as everyone else. I mean there are many sensible reasons for things to be separated, it's not just they don't want us to have toys... -
07-23-2018, 03:06 PMEkimmak
Honestly wouldn't mind five floors, if it means we don't have the current debacle of a two-phase boss that's depressingly unrewarding.
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07-23-2018, 04:13 PMNezeriusExcept most of the patches still had spaced out some of the content to mini-patches, they rarely dropped everything in the initial major patch. 4.3 simply took it to the extreme.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufalus
Besides, people being subbed doesn't always result in the queues for anything other than the new stuff being more active than they'd normally be, during a content lull.
A problem with a very easy solution. Don't release them at the same time. You don't even have to look that far into the past to see this solution being used. 4.2 added Byakko to the game, along with a set of i355 weapons. The following 4.25 patch added Eureka: Anemos, along with the first set of i355 relic weapons. This added at least 5-6 weeks where the Byakko weapons were useful to farm for, longer for those who didn't feel like grinding their way to lvl 19-20 in Eureka for a weapon of the same iLvl.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufalus
Another solution that'd work with having a patch with both a Primal and Eureka (or HoH) is to just not have weapons dropping off the Primal. There's plenty of ARR primals that dropped accessories.
While I can see Pagos and the MHW cross-over event keeping people busy, The Rising generally doesn't keep people busy for more than a day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufalus
I personally prefer the pre-4.3 method of releasing content, especially for something like Eureka. Releasing Anemos roughly 5-6 weeks after the major patch left players with about 2 months to get what they'd want from it, before the release of the next major patch. Pagos about halves that amount of time, so there's more pressure to go through it before the interest drops with the release of new content.
It also means the relic weapon is only useful for about a month, before it's inevitably replaced by the higher iLvl primal weapon 4.4.
The 4.2/4.25 way of releasing Eureka is already a solution to this issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufalus
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07-23-2018, 08:55 PMDerio
I dont think you can compare the Eureka relic grind to the past relic grind in terms of content and replayability. I strongly dislike the Eureka relic questline simply because it doesnt feel like a relic weapon.
Hopefully 4.4 clears the bad taste that 4.3 brought in terms of content.