Revamping High-Quality Items

[ Original post ]

Thoughts?

I'm happy to see they are planning to increase exp bonus for HQ items. One thing that annoys me a little is the (SE-typical) obsession with large numbers. Why will HQ mean a quality of 800-1000? Seeing as that means a chance of HQ of 80-100%, why not go with quality = % of HQ and just make the different type of synths not increase quality by that much.

That way they don't have to display the chance of HQ in a separate number.

The change to touch up is a bit harsh imho, but I guess it's warranted since a HQ item will have a bigger boost in stats now.

I think because they need a variable to translate player effort into number first because different formula apply for NQ mats and HQ mats. What makes me wonder is, does boost in stats(the additional one) will be set number or varies. But on paper, this new system is interesting if the bonus exp for HQ is worth it

To the Devs:

I have never had a problem determining chance of HQ, nor have other crafters if they pay attention to what the UI is telling them. I understand that a higher Quality stat increases chance for HQ items, that HQ ingredients give a major boost to that, and that Touch Ups have a small percentage chance to increase the end quality of the product itself based on how high the Quality stat is at the end of the synthesis process.

Although I agree that HQ items themselves should be upgraded as they are doing, the changes to Touch Up and HQ% are one of the worst ideas you have come up with. Currently, I am able to HQ an item (given many, many attempts) even when I am under the level of the synthesis by touching up at the end until I believe the risk is too great or durability is too low, AND I still keep all my NQ products. With this change, I have only one chance to try for a HQ product AND if it fails, I lose the item being worked on. This is a very low blow to crafters, especially those of us who enjoy grinding to get that HQ item without having to worry about sinking every gil we have into synthesis failures.

Please, please change your plans on Touch Ups. I believes this helps very little, if at all, with the crafting process.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

[ Original post ]

Thoughts?

I'm happy to see they are planning to increase exp bonus for HQ items. One thing that annoys me a little is the (SE-typical) obsession with large numbers. Why will HQ mean a quality of 800-1000? Seeing as that means a chance of HQ of 80-100%, why not go with quality = % of HQ and just make the different type of synths not increase quality by that much.

That way they don't have to display the chance of HQ in a separate number.

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Except, a Quality of 800-1000 doesn't translate to 80-100%, but rather 50-100%.

I do agree with the above posters opinion of touch up being way too harsh. I think a better idea will to have 2 options: One with a basic chance of creating a HQ but upon failure you keep the item and an option that has a higher chance but upon failure you lose the item. This way the less financially endowed players can get their HQ items but not lose tons of unrecoverable gil in lost product that could be resold to recoup cost.

I support the changes to touch-up HQ. Along with the increase to bonus stats I like that it's more of a high risk - high reward system now. More control over the %, but greater risk instead of spamming post-synth.

I foresee touch up only act as last resort. If you are aiming to get HQ, you should get all HQ mats and do your best on synth, not relying on touch up

I do Like to have more control over how my crafting. I do like the fact that HQ items will increase modifiers (but hasn't its always sort of been that way) However i would like to see added that if i am a lvl 50 GSM that if i make a lvl 11 Item that the % of me making a HQ item is increased. Why go all the way through and grind as a crafter just to get to make higher lvl stuff. IF you think about it should mean you have prefected your craft to such a degree that making lower level items at HQ should be easier.

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Originally Posted by Ramis

However i would like to see added that if i am a lvl 50 GSM that if i make a lvl 11 Item that the % of me making a HQ item is increased. Why go all the way through and grind as a crafter just to get to make higher lvl stuff. IF you think about it should mean you have prefected your craft to such a degree that making lower level items at HQ should be easier.

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I so agree with this. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's guaranteed to HQ but maybe something test wise. Similar to the proficiency tests you had to take when crafting in XI. Once you reach 50 X craft you take a test and prove you can create X items. Sort of like a "Master Craftsmen Leve". This would increase your base stat of HQ to let's say 30% at start with no HQ mats. Add HQ mats raise it to 65% from start. So rather than starting at 0% with no HQ mats you get 30% and 50% HQ mats to 65%.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Except, a Quality of 800-1000 doesn't translate to 80-100%, but rather 50-100%.

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Doesn't really matter since

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Actual figures are still under development. They may be adjusted or changed depending on feedback.

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My post was intended as said feedback. Did you really have to nitpick on that one? -.-

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Originally Posted by Ramis

However i would like to see added that if i am a lvl 50 GSM that if i make a lvl 11 Item that the % of me making a HQ item is increased.

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Agreed, though it shouldn't be too high of an increase, else the market will be flooded with HQ items, making NQ items completely worthless.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

Agreed, though it shouldn't be too high of an increase, else the market will be flooded with HQ items, making NQ items completely worthless.

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THIS ^



/10 chars

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

Doesn't really matter since My post was intended as said feedback. Did you really have to nitpick on that one? -.-

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I wasn't nitpicking, but rather pointing out that their idea behind this system is conceptually different from your suggestion of keeping it as a unified HQ% value. A Quality of 300-600 results in a 0-10% chance of HQ, while 800-1000 results in a 50-100% chance. It's clear here that the correlation between Quality and % chance to HQ is not a linear one. This isn't an intentionally redundant design, but one done on purpose. The higher the value of Quality gets, the tougher it becomes to achieve it - and thus the more it influences HQ rate per point of Quality.

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Originally Posted by Ramis

I do Like to have more control over how my crafting. I do like the fact that HQ items will increase modifiers (but hasn't its always sort of been that way) However i would like to see added that if i am a lvl 50 GSM that if i make a lvl 11 Item that the % of me making a HQ item is increased. Why go all the way through and grind as a crafter just to get to make higher lvl stuff. IF you think about it should mean you have prefected your craft to such a degree that making lower level items at HQ should be easier.

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This has pretty much always existed - but the problem was lack of control over HQ rate. No matter how high a Quality you achieved, the rate of HQ was dismal. Now that very high values of Quality will in fact produce HQ rates near or even at 100%, there doesn't need to be any bonus to HQ rate. Lower level recipes will be much easier to achieve very high values of Quality on.

You'll have to worry a lot of about success rate and durability on recipes at or above your craft level, but recipes well below your level can generally be completed even via spamming Careful Synthesis only and focusing on Quality. Thus lower recipes will be much easier to HQ, as part of this system, based on what they're shared.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I wasn't nitpicking, but rather pointing out that their idea behind this system is conceptually different from your suggestion of keeping it as a unified HQ% value. A Quality of 300-600 results in a 0-10% chance of HQ, while 800-1000 results in a 50-100% chance. It's clear here that the correlation between Quality and % chance to HQ is not a linear one. This isn't an intentionally redundant design, but one done on purpose. The higher the value of Quality gets, the tougher it becomes to achieve it - and thus the more it influences HQ rate per point of Quality.

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They can still do the same, just scaling it down to 0-100. The only thing I didn't like is the huge maximal quality, I wasn't suggesting them to change it to a linear curve, it's actually good it's not linear.

They have been adding more and more to the UI recently (micro menu is anything but micro by now), they should try to reduce clutter, not add yet another variable on that is displayed. I just don't see a reason to see the quality if you can see your HQ percent anyway. Or vice versa.

Also, sorry for overreacting, I'm still too used to the people in the general trolling section.

Greetings all! This is a great spot to post up a recent Yoshida post discussing the very changes and adjustments that you all are. I hope that it will give more of an insight into the upcoming HQ synthesis revamp!

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

Hi, this is Director/Producer Yoshida here again.
Thanks for all the feedback regarding the HQ synthesis revamp! Allow me to provide some more info on the topic (although this might repeat a bit from the recent Topics post…)

The Concept
To put it simply, the main idea behind the revamp is that if Quality exceeds 1,000 when completing synthesis, you’re guaranteed to create an HQ item.

Basically, you can gather HQ materials to raise the Quality to 500 (out of 1000) before starting your synth and this can be seen as the need for crafters needing to get good materials together. In the past, I did talk about crafters being guaranteed an HQ item with all HQ mats. However, after further internal discussion we wanted to leave some room for the crafter's equipment and skill/luck as a deciding factor for the final item. Therefore, we decided to go with 500 instead of the 1000.

Item Quality & HQ Success Rate
Starting in patch 1.21, you’ll be able to visually reference the chances of getting a HQ item while you’re crafting. With the level of Quality increasing in stages from 500⇒800⇒1000, the rate that Quality increases during synthesis will not increase at the same rate through the entire synthesis. The adjustments will be made so that 500-800 Quality will have a major increase in the HQ rate, and 800-1000 will have a gradual increase for the HQ rate.

Therefore, if you collect HQ materials and go for quality of 500, and use abilities at the right time, you will get around 80% HQ success rate at worst, and if everything goes well it can increase up to 100%.

So basically, if you take time to prepare all of the materials ahead of time, and so long as you don’t relax while crafting, it means that you should get 80% - 100% on your first HQ craft and create an HQ item. (I am really sorry about this, but keep in mind that the numbers will be adjusted right up until the last minute…)

Touch Up
Even with an 80% chance of success you still might end up with NQ. Of course, even with a 95% chance of success, there will still be the unfortunate 5% that will get NQ. Even if you think “Oh no my item turned out to be NQ”, you can still try to turn it into HQ with the new adjustments to Touch Up.

Since the success rate can already become 80% or 95%, having the exact same rates again would mess up the balance of total HQ output. Therefore, we think that for this second chance the HQ success rate should be about half. For those that feel very strongly about this kind of thing and say “Darn, I don’t want a NQ item and if it isn’t HQ it’s just like losing the item”, we think it would be good to let these people have one more chance.
I would just like to say again, if you follow the typical flow for creating HQ items, I think you will be able to craft HQ items at a decent rate. So, you can think of the new Touch Up as a little “extra”.

Elemental Instability and Abilities
Elemental instability will be adjusted in accordance with the coming patch as we plan on lowering occurrences of elemental instability to make things less stressful. In patch 1.21, we won’t be making any major changes to the details of the abilities, but adjustments will be made to the proc rate of the abilities.

I look forward to hearing your feedback!

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OK this might be the wrong place, But can someone Enlightin me on the Elemntal part of crafting. I do notice that sometimes when craft it tells me that my element is unstable.

What gives?

When an element becomes unstable, you get a higher durability drop if you fail a synth attempt. If you continue to spam enter through it, it might grow chaotic, making you lose a huge part of your durability.

AFAIK, the control stat is what reduces the instability and if it does get unstable, it's best to wait it out.

Quality needs more zeros, imo.

Different elements have different effects as well, but they are all universally bad for the process.

From my impressions of the post Bay translated for us, it would be even easier now to get HQ. I like the fact that you guys are making it more clear on how to obtain HQ items. But the probabilty to obtain it is too high, IMO. I personally have tons of HQ materials in my retainer, does that mean that if I have enough HQ mats to make 50 of any specific finished Item. That there is going to be a minimum of 25 new, shiny +1 items rolling around the wards just from 1 crafter?

It seems with every update, the dev team is making this game easier and easier. This is only my opinion all together but an easy game is a boring game. To me, its emotionally gratifying when I have to work hard towards obtaining a specific item. It gives a feeling of accomplishment when you hold the item in your hands. The same applies to buying an HQ item. I think the number of HQ items rolling around out there now is sufficient as is.

Keep in mind that not everything is made with raw mats. For example, to make a Felt robe you need 3 pieces of undyed felt, woolen yarn, electrum ingot, and boar leather. For the 3 undyed felt alone, you need to start off with Karakul Fleece +1 x5, Snurble Tufts +1 x2, and Natron +1. The dropped items you will eventually get from enemies, the Natron you will have to make from Rock Salt +1 and Effervescent water +1. So it's essentially 2 steps you have to get a +1 on in order to get Undyed Felt +1.

The Yarn needs Karakul Fleece +1 and Fleece +1 (which you would have to HQ by crafting it). Electrum Ingot would just need +1 ore and the leather would just need +1 Hide and Alumen.

Essentially the more steps in manufacturing that an item needs the less and less likely you will HQ it and it will take more time and effort to get the necessary raw materials at the starting steps to get a high HQ rate, but it will greatly reward the crafters that put the effort into doing so. Not to mention there will be future recipes that will most likely use more manufactured materials than raw ones.

HQs would just become a mark of a dedicated crafter that put the work in to make those HQ items and they should be rewarded accordingly. With many HQ items becoming a much larger time investment to make than NQ you will still see less of them around. When they get around to adding the rare gathering nodes, you can bet that getting HQs of those mats and HQs of the gear that is made from them could make you some nice gil.

And don't forget, people wanting to absolutely max out their stats as much as possible will be tempted to multiple meld on their HQ gear (especially if they will be getting unique stat boosts from NQ as planned). This will help take out some excess HQ's in circulation.

Following up on Yoshida’s post early this morning, there were a few questions that Triairy was able to answer shortly after.

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Will any changes be made to the amount of quality decreases when instability occurs?

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With the current changes, the chances for the elements to become instable will become extremely low and therefore lower the chances of the element becoming chaotic. As a result, we decided not change the amount of quality reduction.

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When Disciples of the Hand abilities are revamped will they retain things like alchemist’s preserve ability: “Most effective for finished items.” It’s pretty hard to understand what this refers to and I’m wondering if this is to be removed.

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We are currently aware that it is difficult to understand what falls into these specific categories for abilities. In patch 1.21 this will remain; however, in the future we are looking into getting rid of this all together.

Looks like people have a better chance at getting HQ than they do LQ gear!

Personally the HQ chance should never breach 50% but that's just me I guess.

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Originally Posted by Ramis

... i would like to see added that if i am a lvl 50 GSM that if i make a lvl 11 Item that the % of me making a HQ item is increased.... IF you think about it should mean you have prefected your craft to such a degree that making lower level items at HQ should be easier.

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I disagree with this premise because we all know that Level does not equal Skill. Even a high level crafter is still limited by the materials used. However, if the Devs want to introduce a High Level Ability that increases the chances of making an HQ piece from NQ mats/items, I am ok with that. Results should be based on actual skill (which abilities to use & when), not simply on Level.

Same goes for DoW/M also. A lvl 50 does not get a better drop (HQ?) from a lvl 11 mob just because of the level difference , they simply kill it faster, but if they want to introduce a "Treasure Hunter" Ability that increases the chance of HQ drops, that is fine.

DoL sorta already has theses abilities but could also benefit from a simpler more unified process. The randomness of which abilities are available is pretty funky. I want to choose which abilities to use and when. ("Fingerprints of the Gods" I am looking at you).

Also keep in mind that they might inroduce DoH/L materia that increases your HQ crafting/gathering abilities and/or percentages.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

Keep in mind that not everything is made with raw mats. For example, to make a Felt robe you need 3 pieces of undyed felt, woolen yarn, electrum ingot, and boar leather. For the 3 undyed felt alone, you need to start off with Karakul Fleece +1 x5, Snurble Tufts +1 x2, and Natron +1. The dropped items you will eventually get from enemies, the Natron you will have to make from Rock Salt +1 and Effervescent water +1. So it's essentially 2 steps you have to get a +1 on in order to get Undyed Felt +1.

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Yes, but this higher HQ rate sounds like it will go across the board. Meaning that making Undyed Felt +1 will be easier as well. So you are talking about it being easier to make HQ interim mats and easier to get HQ finished products. This is something we go through anyways.

I dont like.... something is always than nothing
imagine u work hard to make HQ item ... and suppose it fail... u get NQ ... but to get nothing :o
All ur work is gone

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Originally Posted by Rak_Boy

I dont like.... something is always than nothing
imagine u work hard to make HQ item ... and suppose it fail... u get NQ ... but to get nothing :o
All ur work is gone

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Then don't risk the touch up if you are fine with getting a NQ.

Is it just me or is 800 - 1000 quality a bit high, anyone of you reached such an immense quality gain on an 40+ Recipe.

This meens you have to gain about 300 quality when using all +1 Materials to have pretty high chance for HQ.

There must be a great lowering on difficulty from the synthesis or a big boost to the cratingabilities otherwise this numbers are unreachable on high recipes.

But lets wait and see xD

I dont like how I spent soo much time crafting, learning to craft well, testing out theories like crafting in regards to moon phase, direction, daily element, hourly element, only to find out they have nothing to do with anything. Getting the best abilities to use for NQ, HQ, or just using rapid.

Then they went and added the materia system which basically made my craft useless (50 alc) Now they gonna change everything so I have to re-learn everything because ppl are to ignorant to figure it out!!

Yeah its kinda boring now, but does their changes sound much more fun to you? its gonna be from 4 choices to 2, prolly not gonna change anything for fun, might not even change the use of turbo botting.

So basically because ppl are too ignorant to be able to take the time to figure out how to use the system they gonna dumb it down for all you idiots.

Sorry for my rant, I'm just tired of everyone being so f'n ignorant in-game and in-life

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Originally Posted by Estellios

Then don't risk the touch up if you are fine with getting a NQ.

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Think of it as changing Touch Up to the way Materia works. If you go for one more Materia, and you fail, you lose everything. However, if crafting is kept the way it is, it would be more like 1/10th of the current success rate, but you only lose the Materia you try to attach. Obviously for the effects Materia give, the old Touch Up concept should not apply to Materia, but given that HQ increase an item's stats much less, and that it is part of the class' job and process in itself (whereas Materia is a side-ability), I feel that it shouldn't be changed to the way Materia currently works.

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Originally Posted by ObeiKinstar

Then they went and added the materia system which basically made my craft useless (50 alc)

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It's also my feeling that Materia themselves should be class-specific, instead of what equipment it's being melded to. That way, all crafting classes have a shot at it.

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Originally Posted by ObeiKinstar

I dont like how I spent soo much time crafting, learning to craft well, testing out theories like crafting in regards to moon phase, direction, daily element, hourly element, only to find out they have nothing to do with anything. Getting the best abilities to use for NQ, HQ, or just using rapid.

Then they went and added the materia system which basically made my craft useless (50 alc) Now they gonna change everything so I have to re-learn everything because ppl are to ignorant to figure it out!!

Yeah its kinda boring now, but does their changes sound much more fun to you? its gonna be from 4 choices to 2, prolly not gonna change anything for fun, might not even change the use of turbo botting.

So basically because ppl are too ignorant to be able to take the time to figure out how to use the system they gonna dumb it down for all you idiots.

Sorry for my rant, I'm just tired of everyone being so f'n ignorant in-game and in-life

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http://operatorchan.org/vg/arch/src/...if_serious.jpg

The system as it stands is incredibly simple anyway. All this talk of skill for crafting, it doesn't actually exist in the minigame tbh. All you do is level a few crafts to 36 for the good skills and look at a coloured ball...

I am happy for them to simplify it as the skill at the moment for crafters is not at all in the minigame, it's in efficiently spending time gathering mats, making SB gear, deciding what combos to go with for materia melding etc. Skill in crafting has always been primarily about that, not a time wasting minigame.

As for the inreased chances of HQ, all that means is that every semi-serious player will now be looking to get full sets of HQ gear with double/triple materia in them. Will be great for gatherers and farmers who spend time gathering HQ materials. An HQ item on it's own is nothing in ffxiv... it'll just be the new base to work with for those double/triple melds.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

Then don't risk the touch up if you are fine with getting a NQ.

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I want the HQ ... but in case it fail i want to NQ .. not losing everything :/

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Originally Posted by Rak_Boy

I want the HQ ... but in case it fail i want to NQ .. not losing everything :/

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Then don't risk the touch up if you are fine with getting a NQ. And work on getting your Quality higher.

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Originally Posted by CanteJondo

The system as it stands is incredibly simple anyway. All this talk of skill for crafting, it doesn't actually exist in the minigame tbh. All you do is level a few crafts to 36 for the good skills and look at a coloured ball...

I am happy for them to simplify it as the skill at the moment for crafters is not at all in the minigame, it's in efficiently spending time gathering mats, making SB gear, deciding what combos to go with for materia melding etc. Skill in crafting has always been primarily about that, not a time wasting minigame.

As for the inreased chances of HQ, all that means is that every semi-serious player will now be looking to get full sets of HQ gear with double/triple materia in them. Will be great for gatherers and farmers who spend time gathering HQ materials. An HQ item on it's own is nothing in ffxiv... it'll just be the new base to work with for those double/triple melds.

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This is how I feel. The current HQ system is almost entirely devoid of skill because you can craft excellently and get nothing but NQs but hasty hand spam and get multiple HQ's. Changing the system to something like this that is tangible and the work involved getting the initial materials makes it feel more like a payoff. Even moreso when you manage to multi-meld a HQ piece of gear. It's making me look forward to have something to put effort towards.