Please add more Water to WHM’s identity

I feel as though Fluid Aura is just not enough, especially now that it doesn’t deal damage.

Conjury focuses on the elements of Air, Earth and Water, while thaumaturgy focusing on those of Lightning, Fire and Ice. However, BLM has a much more balanced identity of its elements than WHM does.

I would suggest removing Fluid Aura, recycling it’s animation for the Water spell (which it shares the animation with already when cast by elementals). Perhaps add a knockback ability to healer roles as compensation.

This Water spell line could replace our current Aero > Aero 2 line as our instant cast DoT. I imagine Aero causing DoT by choking, and Water fits that purpose well by drowning.

Now, the Aero line can be free to fully progress from 1 to 3 as the AoE DoT with a cast time, learned around the time that ACN gets Bane.

The end result would be identical gameplay at 70 with no extra buttons, but with a wonderful (imo) addition to WHMs conjuring identity being more fleshed out.

Assize, Asylum, Divine Benison, and Plenary Indulgence are all water I believe but more water spells wouldn’t hurt ;)

I'd love more water spells too.

Flood! Also, (and I doubt they'd ever do this, but...) it would be interesting if they implemented elemental resistances/weaknesses (ex: Flare and Flood add water resistance debuffs in FF Brave Exvius). That would add synergy for White/Black mages. Obviously it could create a balance nightmare, but elemental weaknesses have always been a part of FF, and it could introduce very interesting new fight mechanics. Perhaps if they did something similar for unaspected casters...

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

I feel as though Fluid Aura is just not enough, especially now that it doesn’t deal damage.

Conjury focuses on the elements of Air, Earth and Water, while thaumaturgy focusing on those of Lightning, Fire and Ice.

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The class abilities do that now, but original lore - and the way it was back in 1.0 - was that Conjury used all the six elements (Air, Earth, Water, Lightning, Fire, Ice) while Thaumaturgy used Astral and Umbral energies

This has partly been ret-conned since then - making the surrounding lore less coherent than it used to be.


Note also that White Magic is not really "advanced conjury" - it is a separate magical school that in many ways work differently than conjury.
Same with Black Magic and thaumaturgy.

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Originally Posted by Valmaxian

Flood! Also, (and I doubt they'd ever do this, but...) it would be interesting if they implemented elemental resistances/weaknesses (ex: Flare and Flood add water resistance debuffs in FF Brave Exvius)...

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they specifically did not make it a thing (hence why blm using fire on Ifrit does damage to him), and they just removed the elemental char stuff from the game entirely. I don't think they'll be putting it back anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by Rox_Unlimited

Assize, Asylum, Divine Benison, and Plenary Indulgence are all water I believe but more water spells wouldn’t hurt ;)

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Asylum appears like it could potentially be water based but the rest look decidedly astral aligned (light magic from other FFs) to me so I’m inclined to believe it is as well.

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Originally Posted by Valmaxian

Flood! Perhaps if they did something similar for unaspected casters...

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Well, they kind of do this with SMN and Ruin. Tri-Disaster makes an enemy weak to Ruin spells. In this game however, this is the only way to accomplish this - it would have to be a self buff. Freeze could add a fire damage taken buff for example. Elemental affinities have been moved to Eureka where they will likely stay otherwise.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

The class abilities do that now, but original lore - and the way it was back in 1.0 - was that Conjury used all the six elements (Air, Earth, Water, Lightning, Fire, Ice) while Thaumaturgy used Astral and Umbral energies

Note also that White Magic is not really "advanced conjury" - it is a separate magical school that in many ways work differently than conjury.
Same with Black Magic and thaumaturgy.

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I definitely do remember that. Having all 6 elements felt very cluttered. I was happy for the split overall.

While White and Black Magic are their own schools, it should definitely be recognized that WHMs and BLMs do continue to strengthen and expand upon their CNJ and THM roots (as a character). Stone IV, Aero III, Fire IV, Blizzard IV and Thunder IV are all examples of this. They’re not Black or White Magic but advanced Conjury and Thaumaturgy because while you can take the WHM/BLM out of CNJ/THM, you can’t take the CNJ/THM out of WHM/BLM.

Do we really want another war of magi

Just my 2 gil here, but isn't WHMs identity supposed to be either Holy, or nature in general?

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Originally Posted by Valmaxian

Flood! Also, (and I doubt they'd ever do this, but...) it would be interesting if they implemented elemental resistances/weaknesses (ex: Flare and Flood add water resistance debuffs in FF Brave Exvius). That would add synergy for White/Black mages. Obviously it could create a balance nightmare, but elemental weaknesses have always been a part of FF, and it could introduce very interesting new fight mechanics. Perhaps if they did something similar for unaspected casters...

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They could but they won't, clearly they don't have any desire other than what the mobs are able to do and even then it's just counted as unspecified itself since there's no actual resistances, def and dmg only come into play via the wheel in Eureka sadly.

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Originally Posted by NewAgeDoom

Just my 2 gil here, but isn't WHMs identity supposed to be either Holy, or nature in general?

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No holy in the game, it's just elemental based, aka Earth, Air (healing, wind spells) Water, the elements are part of nature.

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Originally Posted by NewAgeDoom

Just my 2 gil here, but isn't WHMs identity supposed to be either Holy, or nature in general?

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Yup a mixture of those. And Water fits that very well and is otherwise missing. Thematically earth allows for life (plants) to grow but only should water nourish and wind spread the seeds. Holy (astral/white magic) spells deal with light, life and protection, the same concept as the great bole (tree) and harmonizes with that of the conjurer’s 3 elements.

Fluid Aura is the one, no-doubt-about-it water spell for WHM and is extremely rarely used. I personally only use it in Eureka or if there is a stray caster on a group pull to push it where it belongs. The second reason is why its use (with no element attached and a new name/animation) would make for a better Role Ability (all healers should be able to knock a stray back to the group).

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Originally Posted by Shouko

They could but they won't, clearly they don't have any desire other than what the mobs are able to do and even then it's just counted as unspecified itself since there's no actual resistances, def and dmg only come into play via the wheel in Eureka sadly.



No holy in the game, it's just elemental based, aka Earth, Air (healing, wind spells) Water, the elements are part of nature.

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...Isn't there a spell LITERALLY called Holy though?

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Originally Posted by NewAgeDoom

...Isn't there a spell LITERALLY called Holy though?

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Yeah in this case it's just unspecified damage, aka non "holy" magic, think of most of the spells in the game as glamored unspecified damage into the element or type. It has no impact on doing double damage or whatever to voidal mobs or undead, just like lightning won't do more to water or water to fire.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

Yeah in this case it's just unspecified damage, aka non "holy" magic, think of most of the spells in the game as glamored unspecified damage into the element or type. It has no impact on doing double damage or whatever to voidal mobs or undead, just like lightning won't do more to water or water to fire.

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Holy is an element, lorewise. It’s known as Astral (opposed to Umbral). “Holy spells/magic,” “light magic,” “white magic” are all synonymous terms to describe spells and abilities like Holy, Benediction, Tetragrammaton, Assize, Divine Benison etc.

The casting animation is almost always unaspected, as seen in Ruin, Gravity and seen in WHM as Holy. However, the (WHM) spells from a lore point are decidedly astral aligned.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

Holy is an element, lorewise. It’s known as Astral (opposed to Umbral). “Holy spells/magic,” “light magic,” “white magic” are all synonymous terms to describe spells and abilities like Holy, Benediction, Tetragrammaton, Assize, Divine Benison etc.

The casting animation is almost always unaspected, as seen in Ruin, Gravity and seen in WHM as Holy. However, the spells from a lore point are decidedly astral aligned.

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Good for lore, not talking about lore, talking purely from mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

Good for lore, not talking about lore, talking purely from mechanics.

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You replied to a lore-related comment with a comment about mechanics. Everyone knows every spell deals damage unrelated to its assigned element and is purely based on Magic Attack versus Magic Defense. You can see why I was confused by you saying the element doesn’t exist when it does.

in 1.0 cnj was more black magie of the 2 and thm was the better healer

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Originally Posted by Ordoric

in 1.0 cnj was more black magie of the 2 and thm was the better healer

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To be fair THM was also the best tank/soloist lol. Much and more has changed since those days!

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

Holy is an element, lorewise. It’s known as Astral (opposed to Umbral).

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I was under the impression that umbra/astra was written out as elements, and the words themselves merely define the other elemental aether-i.e. the difference between a heat wave and a fireball.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

The class abilities do that now, but original lore - and the way it was back in 1.0 - was that Conjury used all the six elements (Air, Earth, Water, Lightning, Fire, Ice) while Thaumaturgy used Astral and Umbral energies

This has partly been ret-conned since then - making the surrounding lore less coherent than it used to be.


Note also that White Magic is not really "advanced conjury" - it is a separate magical school that in many ways work differently than conjury.
Same with Black Magic and thaumaturgy.

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This. Black Magic draws from elemental inference, if I recall the term correctly -- sort of the shades or draw of magic as a whole on the part of the raw elements while White Mage is about those energies invested in actual souls -- which is a bit ironic, given that Conjury is originally all about the relationship with and between the elements, while Thaumaturgy was originally about soul-bound or -binding magics or literally "miracle-making".

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Originally Posted by Shouko

Yeah in this case it's just unspecified damage, aka non "holy" magic, think of most of the spells in the game as glamored unspecified damage into the element or type. It has no impact on doing double damage or whatever to voidal mobs or undead, just like lightning won't do more to water or water to fire.

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Then by that logic, there aren't any of the spell types you say Holy was sacrificed to make room for, either...

There is literally only Magical and Physical (and therein Slashing, Piercing, and Blunt as sub-categories) damage.

I honestly wish that instead of WHM dealing so much with the elements they would just do the following: (Also added what I would like them to do with SCH/SMN)

1.) ACN (Role Changed: Healer) / At level 30 ACN = SCH
-ruins would get replaced with broils
2.) CNJ (Role: Healer) / At level 30 CNJ = GEO (A elemental based healer)
3.) SMN (unlocked at level 30) (Similar to criteria used for AST/DRK/MCH/RDM/SAM)
-bios / miasmas replaced with pet moves?
4.) WHM (unlocked at level 30) (Similar to criteria used for AST/DRK/MCH/RDM/SAM)
-wind spells replaced by dia/earth spells replaced by banish/water spells replaced by radiance/blight?

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Originally Posted by NewAgeDoom

Just my 2 gil here, but isn't WHMs identity supposed to be either Holy, or nature in general?

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Not really. FF1, literately ripped off Wizardry/Ultima, which in turn ripped off the original Dungeons and Dragons.

So the "white mage" / "white wizard" of FF1 was a JRPG twist on the traditional Cleric of those games. However, in those original CRPG's, healing magic tended to be exclusive to the Cleric, while damaging magic was exclusive to the "Wizard", but there were exceptions (because they were single player games, and "holy" stuff was often in the context of Christianity.)

You have to look at Ultima 3 or the first Wizardry game to see where FF got these from.

In the case of Ultima 3, the game had two kinds of magic, "prayer" magic" and "sorcery". So the Cleric was exclusive Prayers (but could wear chain mail), the Wizard was exclusive Sorcery (cloth mail), the Druid could do both (cloth mail), but their int/wis(mind) was half. The Alchemist could do sorcery (cloth mail), the Illusionist could do prayers (leather mail), and could disarm traps (So they were half thief, half cleric, or half thief half wizard.) The Ranger could disarm traps, do both schools of magic, and wear plate armor. Then you had Lark who was half wizard, half fighter (cloth mail), and the Paladin who could do Prayers while wearing plate mail.

In Wizardry, You had 4 classes, the Fighter, Mage, Priest, and Thief. The advanced classes Bishop (half priest, half mage), Lord (aka Paladin), Ninja and Samurai (Fighter/Mage)

The White mage in FF is basically the Ultima 3 Cleric/Wizardry Priest. The Red Mage is the Ranger of Ultima 3, or the Bishop from Wizardry. The Black mage is the U3 "Wizard" or Wizardy "Mage". The Paladin is literately unchanged from these games into FF1, except having a different name (Lord in Wizardry, "Knight" in the NES FF1).

AFAIK (I don't have any of these books, so I'm looking on wikipedia), the 6 bases classes of AD&D 1, where sub classes were introduced, had Bard, Cleric, Monk, Thief, Fighter, and Magic user, and each had a sub class except bard and Monk. Essentially "Cleric" spells are all about divine magic (healing), no destruction. Where as Magic users have access only to destructive magic. That's completely consistent with what wound up in Wizardy Online. The exception comes when dealing with undead, where Holy magic is destructive against "undead" hellspawn type of creatures.

Final Fantasy was always about finding the 4 crystals, defeat the big-bad who is going to destroy the world. AD&D, Ultima and Wizardy all tended to be based on tomb-raiding , hence the chances of encountering undead, was frequent, and thus "holy" magic would be far far more useful in that context than in Final Fantasy. In Final Fantasy, "White Mage" was a Cleric with it's own twist. FF kept the same 8 levels of magic that Ultima had. Cure, Heal, Life, Dia (Holy), Nul (Esuna), Protect buffs. The only offensive spell that was in FF1 for the white mage was "Holy" that worked against all enemies. Dia only worked against undead.

As Final Fantasy became more story-involved FF2 onwards, you could not create characters. However you could assign jobs in FFIII, V and X-2

Guess what comes up in FFIII?
Wind Crystal - Warrior, Monk, Red Mage, White Mage, Black Mage
Fire Crystal - Thief, Knight, Ranger, Scholar
Water Crystal - Geomancer, Dragoon, Viking, Dark Knight, Bard, Evoker, Black Belt
Earth Crystal - Devout, Magus, Summoner, Ninja, Sage

See those overlapping job names from Ultima 3 again? So they removed the "Thief" skill for disarm traps/pick locks, just like in FF1, which reduced the complexity down to "Fighter, White Magic, Black Magic" So lets' focus on the magic jobs again.

Red Mage, White Mage and Black Mage are just like FF1, however the Ranger could use white magic in the NES up to level 3, and the Scholar, level 3 of black and white magic. Dragoon could use white magic up to level 3, Magus was black magic 1-8, Devout was white magic 1-8, and the Sage could use level 1-8 black and white magic AND summon magic.

The levels of magic and the job roles would return in FFV, but now the "freelancer" was an option, and FF6 was basically all-freelancer. It's at this point Final Fantasy got it's own identity separate from Western CRPG's and their underlying AD&D roots.

But still one thing remains the same. White (Holy) magic. In FFX-2 The innate ability of the White Mage dresssphere is Pray.

TL;DNR version: FF's White Mage is based distantly on the Dungeons and Dragon's Cleric. FFXIV V1.0's classes tried to bend towards nature (thus more in common with druids, or "nature wizards") but was bent back towards the cleric in 1.21 by introducing the classic FF jobs, and with it, shoe-horning the lore back towards it's origins in D&D.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

hence why blm using fire on Ifrit does damage to him

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I remember in 1.0 when Fire healed Ifrit.
Good times...

For a job SE designed to use Earth, Wind and Water spells, the lack of water spells is a bit stupid. Fluid Aura was pitiful imo. Almost every FF games has water spells/water summons. FFXIV lacks that and it's a bit odd that they give WHM all these wind and earth spells but only 1 water spell and it's not really a spell, it's a ability with a knockback effect that's lame in general. Why bother having whm specialize in earth, wind and water and you don't give them any water spells? It's pathetic. BLM's elemental balance with Fire, Lightning and Ice is perfect, so why is WHM sucking at elemental balancing? If you're not gonna give WHM water spells, give them to BLM then, it will benefit more anyway.

I would rather give water spells to GEO

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

FFXIV V1.0's classes tried to bend towards nature (thus more in common with druids, or "nature wizards") but was bent back towards the cleric in 1.21 by introducing the classic FF jobs, and with it, shoe-horning the lore back towards it's origins in D&D.

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How did 1.0 bend White Mage towards nature when it neither had nor ever intended to have a White Mage? It had Conjurer, which... conjured from the elements, and the priest-like Thaumaturge which, per its namesake, worked miracles around light (astral) and dark (umbral), blood and magic.

There is virtually no similarity whatsoever in design philosophy or vision between 1.0 and 1.2. You merely have the world chunkiest retcon as Yoshida takes over. 1.0 intended to be different, and was until --to borrow your word-- those shoe-horn revisions. As such I don't think the 1.0 basis carries any of that legacy; it merely points out that not all design teams necessarily wanted to follow it verbatim.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

How did 1.0 bend White Mage towards nature when it neither had nor ever intended to have a White Mage? It had Conjurer, which... conjured from the elements, and the priest-like Thaumaturge which, per its namesake, worked miracles around light (astral) and dark (umbral), blood and magic.

There is virtually no similarity whatsoever in design philosophy or vision between 1.0 and 1.2. You merely have the world chunkiest retcon as Yoshida takes over. 1.0 intended to be different, and was until --to borrow your word-- those shoe-horn revisions. As such I don't think the 1.0 basis carries any of that legacy; it merely points out that not all design teams necessarily wanted to follow it verbatim.

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To say that a Final Fantasy game didn't intend to have a White Mage is utter nonsense.

What was intended is for class combinations to form the jobs, rather than linear progression.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

To say that a Final Fantasy game didn't intend to have a White Mage is utter nonsense.

What was intended is for class combinations to form the jobs, rather than linear progression.

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Fair enough. But while taking Sacrifice, Dia, and Banish from THM, or Protect, Shell, Raise, Cure, and Cura from CNJ could have given you the basic toolkits of a White Mage over a CNJ or THM base, you'd still be stuck with either every possible element of offensive magics or numerous poisons and non-WHM-traditional debuffs. The lore didn't suggest any particularly White Mage-like intersections between CNJ/Wizard and THM/Sorcerer, either. Perhaps finer customization that would allow for a tighter alignment was in the works though.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

This Water spell line could replace our current Aero > Aero 2 line as our instant cast DoT. I imagine Aero causing DoT by choking, and Water fits that purpose well by drowning.

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Wind's effect is explained specifically in the conjurer questline, after you fight a wind sprite:
"Now then ─ what did you learn as you struggled within the air's grasp? You will doubtless have noticed that wind does not strike with the instant, crushing force of earth. Instead, it torments one's form, dancing across every surface and leaving a thousand tiny wounds in its wake. These are the agonies of erosion. Having experienced such pain, you are now intimately acquainted with wind's capacity for patient destruction."

Meanwhile in the trial of water:
"This precious liquid is the lifeblood of the Twelveswood. Without it, naught would grow. But should it rise in too great a volume, and too swiftly, the nourishing flow will become a crashing wave that washes away all before it."


For being used as an offensive spell, there doesn't seem to be a lot of difference between water and earth. I would have liked to see either water used as the primary offensive skill set (with Earth as the knockback skill) or link healing skills clearly with the water element, as the dialogue seems to suggest.



On splitting the six elements between the two schools of magic - it's fine that they've done that, but the split seems off. From the elemental circle (see: Eureka's element system) the two 'sets' of elements are wind/fire/ice and lightning/earth/water. Though the current arrangement does work better thematically.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

How did 1.0 bend White Mage towards nature when it neither had nor ever intended to have a White Mage? It had Conjurer, which... conjured from the elements, and the priest-like Thaumaturge which, per its namesake, worked miracles around light (astral) and dark (umbral), blood and magic.

There is virtually no similarity whatsoever in design philosophy or vision between 1.0 and 1.2. You merely have the world chunkiest retcon as Yoshida takes over. 1.0 intended to be different, and was until --to borrow your word-- those shoe-horn revisions. As such I don't think the 1.0 basis carries any of that legacy; it merely points out that not all design teams necessarily wanted to follow it verbatim.

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The FFXIV 1.0 (not Yoshi-P) setup was different, players felt it wasn't a Final Fantasy. So the classic FF jobs were added, and the entire design philosophy was tossed.

If 1.0 had continued it's course, it would have wound up more like Wizardy Online, with cross-classing specific skills that you want from that class. So if you want Cure on every class, you can have cure on every class. There's no direct connection between 1.0's design philosophy and previous FF games, and that's the point. "Holy" magic is the stuff of prayers of clerics, which is what the white mage is. "Destructive magic" is the stuff of black mage. V1.0 (look at the history of any V1.x page and go back to 1.0's release date)

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/C...)?oldid=945049

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Fire Deals fire damage to enemies within area of effect.
Blizzard Deals ice damage to enemies within area of effect.
Aero Deals wind damage to enemies within area of effect.
Stone Deals earth damage to enemies within area of effect.
Thunder Deals lightning damage to enemies within area of effect.
Water Deals water damage to enemies within area of effect.
Cure Restores HP of allies within area of effect.
Stoneskin Hardens the skin of allies within area of effect, absorbing a certain amount of damage.
Repose Renders enemies within area of effect immobile. Does not affect moving targets.
Shock Spikes Armors party members within area of effect with spikes of lightning, granting the ability to stun and deal lightning damage to attacking enemies.
Burn Deals fire damage over time to and reduces fire magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Frost Deals ice damage over time to and reduces ice magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Choke Deals wind damage over time to and reduces wind magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Rasp Deals earth damage over time to and reduces earth magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Shock Deals lightning damage over time to and reduces lightning magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Drown Deals water damage over time to and reduces water magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Protect Enhances the defense of allies within area of effect.
Shell Enhances the magic defense of allies within area of effect.
Cure II Restores HP of allies within area of effect.
Fire II Deals fire damage to enemies within area of effect.
Blizzard II Deals ice damage to enemies within area of effect.
Aero II Deals wind damage to enemies within area of effect.
Stone II Deals earth damage to enemies within area of effect.
Thunder II Deals lightning damage to enemies within area of effect.
Water II Deals water damage to enemies within area of effect.
Paralyna Removes paralysis from party members within area of effect.
Silena Removes silence from party members within area of effect.
Sleep Induces slumber among enemies within area of effect.
Burn II Deals fire damage over time to and reduces fire magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Frost II Deals ice damage over time to and reduces ice magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Choke II Deals wind damage over time to and reduces wind magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Rasp II Deals earth damage over time to and reduces earth magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Shock II Deals lightning damage over time to and reduces lightning magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Drown II Deals water damage over time to and reduces water magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Raise Revives a KO'd target.
Reraise Revives target upon being KO'd.
Shock Spikes II Armors party members within area of effect with spikes of lightning, granting the ability to stun and deal lightning damage to attacking enemies.
Stoneskin II Hardens the skin of allies within area of effect, absorbing a certain amount of damage.
Shock Spikes II Hardens the skin of allies within area of effect, absorbing a certain amount of damage.
Tractor Pulls the body of a KO'd target toward the caster.
Flare Deals massive fire damage to enemies within area of effect.
Freeze Deals massive ice damage to enemies within area of effect.
Tornado Deals massive wind damage to enemies within area of effect.
Quake Deals massive earth damage to enemies within area of effect.
Burst Deals massive lightning damage to enemies within area of effect.
Flood Deals massive water damage to enemies within area of effect.
Cure III Restores HP of allies within area of effect.
Protect II Enhances the defense of allies within area of effect.
Shell II Enhances the magic defense of allies within area of effect.
Protect II Enhances the defense of allies within area of effect.

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Now look at V1.0's Thaumaturge.
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/T...e?oldid=945075

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Scourge Deals umbral damage to and reduces umbral magic defense of enemies within area of effect. Even subsequent castings of Scourge benefit from the scourge effect.
Banish Deals astral damage to and reduces astral magic defense of enemies within area of effect. Even subsequent castings of Banish benefit from the banish effect.
Sacrifice Heals a portion of HP and additional HP over time to party members within area of effect. Worth the HP spent, even when fighting solo.
Poison Poisons enemies within area of effect.
Gravity Reduces the movement speed of enemies within area of effect.
Slow Slows the stamina regeneration of enemies within area of effect.
Bio Deals umbral damage over time and reduces the attack power of enemies within area of effect.
Dia Deals astral damage over time and reduces the defense of enemies within area of effect.
Stygian Spikes Armors party members within area of effect with umbral spikes, granting the ability to absorb MP from attacking enemies.
Absorb ACC Transfers a portion of the target's accuracy to you.
Absorb ATK Transfers a portion of the target's attack power to you.
Absorb DEF Transfers a portion of the target's defense to you.
Absorb EVA Transfers a portion of the target's evasion to you.
Siphon MP Transfers a portion of the target's MP to you.
Sacrifice II Heals a portion of HP and additional HP over time to party members within area of effect.
Scourge II Deals umbral damage to and reduces umbral magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Banish II Deals astral damage to and reduces astral magic defense of enemies within area of effect.
Drain Transfers a portion of HP from enemies within area of effect to you.
Bind Renders moving enemies within area of effect immobile. Does not affect non-moving targets.
Paralyze Paralyzes enemies within area of effect.
Silence Silences enemies within area of effect.
Mass Fear Causes enemies within area of effect to flee in terror.
Siphon TP Transfers a portion of the target's TP to you.
Bio II Deals umbral damage over time and reduces the attack power of enemies within area of effect.
Dia II Deals astral damage over time and reduces the defense of enemies within area of effect.
Blind Reduces the accuracy of enemies within area of effect.
Resurrect Revives a KO'd target.
Soul Ward Revives target upon being KO'd.
Stygian Spikes Armors party members within area of effect with umbral spikes, granting the ability to absorb MP from attacking enemies.
Shadowsear Deals damage and increases your magic potency in proportion to the difference in HP between you and the target.
Poison II Poisons enemies within area of effect.
Siphon MP II Transfers a portion of the target's MP to you.
Drain II Transfers a portion of HP from enemies within area of effect to you.
Sacrifice III Heals a portion of HP and additional HP over time to party members within area of effect.

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Just looking at the names, the V1.0 Thaumaturge has all the stuff that a white mage had in previous FF games, and on top of that, has all the magic that was later given to Arcanist and Astrologian.

Quite literately, the Thaumaturge is the farthest thing from a Black Mage in the present game.
And that wiki site apparently spent a great deal of time noting down the info for CNJ and THM, but everything else is pretty sparse.

What we have in the present game was the entire CNJ and THM design thrown away except for Cure on the Conjurer, the Thaumaturge gets half of the Conjurer's old dps skills, and the Arcanist got everything else. Whatever the Arcanist didn't get, was later revived and reused for Astrologian. It would be much fairer to say the Thaumaturge of V1.0 is the Astrologian in the present game.

Yea they need to go more so the route of stuff like banish and keep the stone and aero but I also agree with some people save the water spells for Geo or another healer class.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The FFXIV 1.0 (not Yoshi-P) setup was different, players felt it wasn't a Final Fantasy. So the classic FF jobs were added, and the entire design philosophy was tossed.

If 1.0 had continued it's course, it would have wound up more like Wizardy Online, with cross-classing specific skills that you want from that class. So if you want Cure on every class, you can have cure on every class. There's no direct connection between 1.0's design philosophy and previous FF games, and that's the point. "Holy" magic is the stuff of prayers of clerics, which is what the white mage is. "Destructive magic" is the stuff of black mage. V1.0 (look at the history of any V1.x page and go back to 1.0's release date)

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/C...)?oldid=945049



Now look at V1.0's Thaumaturge.
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/T...e?oldid=945075


Just looking at the names, the V1.0 Thaumaturge has all the stuff that a white mage had in previous FF games, and on top of that, has all the magic that was later given to Arcanist and Astrologian.

Quite literately, the Thaumaturge is the farthest thing from a Black Mage in the present game.
And that wiki site apparently spent a great deal of time noting down the info for CNJ and THM, but everything else is pretty sparse.

What we have in the present game was the entire CNJ and THM design thrown away except for Cure on the Conjurer, the Thaumaturge gets half of the Conjurer's old dps skills, and the Arcanist got everything else. Whatever the Arcanist didn't get, was later revived and reused for Astrologian. It would be much fairer to say the Thaumaturge of V1.0 is the Astrologian in the present game.

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Yep. Had the light/dark magics of a traditional SCH, had much of the functionality frequently limited to a WHM, and the massive bank of debuffs given to some of the series' colored magics (Green, etc.; anything but White and Black) or BLM in certain iterations. And those are about as close as it gets to anything remotely BLM-ish... /sigh

Abilities for the other classes. Some damage type changes since Beta, which had more non-elemental damage types (Sonic, Blood, etc.), iirc.

Whatever 1.0 intended, I much prefer the current elemental split between BLM and WHM.
There are three clearly destructive energy, and three that are essentially the manipulation of natural matter.

As for water, I've always felt that the Medica spells, or all of the HoTs for that matter, could have been tied to water.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Whatever 1.0 intended, I much prefer the current elemental split between BLM and WHM.
There are three clearly destructive energy, and three that are essentially the manipulation of natural matter.

As for water, I've always felt that the Medica spells, or all of the HoTs for that matter, could have been tied to water.

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All heals in general probably could have but for some reason they decided to make them wind based.

As for the Banish line, I see the appeal coming from XI myself, but this isn’t XI. They drew from other inspiration for this title such as III which gave WHM the Aero spells as well. Banish was only in XI to my knowledge (not counting 1.0 THM), and WHM historically learned Holy for its one light/holy element spell which is present here as well.

I’d prefer to see Geomancers in control of all the elements as opposed to just 3, more aligned with how they are in most games. Would be possible to put elemental puddles down to alter some abilities elements and effects to mimic a terrain mechanic that wouldn’t be possible to balance here.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

All heals in general probably could have but for some reason they decided to make them wind based.As for the Banish line, I see the appeal coming from XI myself, but this isn’t XI. They drew from other inspiration for this title such as III which gave WHM the Aero spells as well. Banish was only in XI to my knowledge (not counting 1.0 THM), and WHM historically learned Holy for its one light/holy element spell which is present here as well.

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Banish actually exists currently in FFXIV. It's monster only though at the moment. Gimme a second and I'll see if I can find it.

Edit: here it is

https://i.imgur.com/SO0xunY.jpg

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

Banish actually exists currently in FFXIV. It's monster only though at the moment. Gimme a second and I'll see if I can find it.

Edit: here it is

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Right it’s present in many FFs as enemy skills, I was referring to player skills.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

Fluid Aura is the one, no-doubt-about-it water spell for WHM and is extremely rarely used. I personally only use it in Eureka or if there is a stray caster on a group pull to push it where it belongs. The second reason is why its use (with no element attached and a new name/animation) would make for a better Role Ability (all healers should be able to knock a stray back to the group).

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Agreed! I like that WHM with Rescue can draw in an ally, and with Fluid Aura, push an enemy away and also bind them. It's a very godly feeling. It would be great if the other two healers had knockback abilities as well. It could easily replace Break as a role skill. Though WHMs might gripe that yet another ability was taken from them and placed in the RS list. Might be better to give SCH and AST their own versions of knockback abilities.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

It could easily replace Break as a role skill. Though WHMs might gripe that yet another ability was taken from them and placed in the RS list. Might be better to give SCH and AST their own versions of knockback abilities.

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It could even be combined with Break if they do a priority list of effects. Knocback+Bind by default, Heavy if enemy is immune to knockback. As for the last bit, I definitely think it should be role, primarily because SCH and AST have a lot more button bloat than WHM. It is too bad hat WHM lost abilities to the role slot but it’s understandable when they’re the core healers that some of those abilities had to be shared for button space. If only they were given an additional water spell or two to offset that loss... haha. I do miss the theme of Leeches on SCH and Stella on AST though, maybe they can come back with varrying effects some day.