I told you so, but we can still fix this!

I am a returning FF14 player,i quit shortly after the Stormblood launch after the atrocious changes to DRK with the loss of reprisal and low blow. Feel free to check my post history, i was one of the few maybe only voice at the time of the Stormblood release that saw this coming and I would like to say, IF we had been more vocal at the start we would have gotten better changes.

And yes i still play DRK because quietus is alright for dungeons, but again TBN trade for reprisal and Lowblow and scourge was not worth it. I suggest we return back delirium to our combo and have it have it cost 25 blood to use reduce the refresh time as you guys see fit return the INT reduction and GIVE US BACK Scourge, i can live w/o reprisal because TBN kinda fulfills that instant punish Greatsword niche that we had in Heavensward with reprisal and low blow procs.

Quietus is absurdly good what what its supposed to fill Bloodspiller is fine tho i do suggest taking it off ogcd or giving it a combo with power slash to atleast make as feel like we have options in single target fights after we get aggro is just soul eater combo away.

This is just my two cents from a guy who had the foresight to see this coming months in advance thanks square for making a great game which is why i'm back but please take this post into consideration for future changes.

Just as a small note i do feel like TBN will continue to hamper us to my other DRK players we may have to advocate for its removal or nerf to get real changes to our class i cannot confirm squares intentions but i do feel like they thought of that skill first and then balanced the class around it after the fact.

There's really no good reason for DRK not to have a 3rd combo, both the other tanks do and there's no problem. I don't think there is a real need for Int reduction, however. After taking away Halone's STR debuff and Storm's Path damage down it probably made sense to get rid of DRK's Int down as well. We have enough mitigation options right now with Addle, Feint, Dismantle, Reprisal, Palisade. Don't forget about all the shields.. And honestly I think it's a bit more engaging to have to time these abilities vs easy 100% uptime debuffs.

DRK changes have been discussed at length so hopefully the devs are properly getting our feedback and they get to work. There's still a few months before next raid tier so they have plenty of time to get it right.

I doesn't matter if the other tanks had there debuffs removed we aren't them and they aren't us, and i do feel like DRK's being the only tank with a debuff that's INT down fits the niche that DRKs are supposed to fill because atm, DRKS do not fill any role outside of weak sauce puns aside we have no identity atm it would do us a great justice to give us that.

Our biggest issue we have a bunch of individual skills that are balanced around TBN and nothing else, our blood costs our damage our lack of mitigation is all tied to TBN, i respect your opinion but i disagree we need a forth option on top of Delirium to add a combo potency damage to BS in PS combo for good measure, or take BS off GCD. We need skills that have costs other then 50 blood because to me its so painful obvious square worked backwards from TBN from blood costs, to lack of mitigation its absurd.

This is a suggestion thread i truely do respect your opinion and its as good as mines i just wanted to state my opposition to your point.

I'd just like to add theres no right or wrong answers in this thread as reading to forums i can see now people generally agree DRK needs work.

(Albeit 10months late but better late then never)

Well, here's the counter-argument.

The only thing wrong with Dark Knight is you - a Damage Intake Analysis

I suppose it follows that Dark Knight might be simplified similar to how Warrior was.

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

I doesn't matter if the other tanks had there debuffs removed we aren't them and they aren't us, and i do feel like DRK's being the only tank with a debuff that's INT down fits the niche that DRKs are supposed to fill because atm, DRKS do not fill any role outside of weak sauce puns aside we have no identity atm it would do us a great justice to give us that.

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the 10% INT down debuff was too strong. the same as WAR's all damge reduced by 10%

basically all unavoidable aoe attacks (raid busters) are magic damage - the game is designed around that and it can't be changed easiliy. meele DDs have less magic defense, but more life, while casters have less life, but more magic defense.
with a 10% INT down debuff with 100% uptime DRK will suddenly have the best utility of all tanks by far. DRK's and WAR's debuffs were one of the biggest reasons PLD was SO bad in HW (there were other reasons as well).

however, i like the gameplay aspect of keeping debuffs running on the enemy. i think it fits tanking very well and i really miss old Delirium and Reprisal.

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so, we are in 3.5 and we want to balance the tanks....

remove PLDs 10% STR down debuff.
give PLD 10% damage reduced debuff.

remove WARs 10% damage reduced debuff.
give WAR 10% STR debuff.

let PLD block magic attacks.

maybe buff WARs dps (he should be able to out-dps the other tanks, because he lacks utility. not sure how strong WARs dps really were back then)

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how did i do compared to 4.0 changes?

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Originally Posted by Tint

how did i do compared to 4.0 changes?

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6/10
Thats closer to homogenization then class balance.

PLD get no debuff, they get to block magic and heal targets and have the best base mitigation in game, and a full immortally tank cd for themselves and an ally.
War get Damage UP for pt outside of slashing.
DRK's get status down, if it were up to me i'd allow them two separate for INT and MND. One on delirium one on bloodspiller.
That what i really want real differences between the tanks.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Well, here's the counter-argument.

The only thing wrong with Dark Knight is you - a Damage Intake Analysis

I suppose it follows that Dark Knight might be simplified similar to how Warrior was.

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The point of that post is that when it comes to total tank damage for compositions, dark is not an hindrance to the party, in other words, parties with dark knights are not taking more damage on average than a paladin warrior composition. The post does let go of the utility and dps argument though. It is not the be all end all in terms of is dark knight in the best place.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

*only quoting Chrono since I'm continuing that convo, not posing a rebuttal to what he said*

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Reading that analysis, it makes me feel like the poster went into it wanting to prove a certain point and due to this confirmation bias perceived the data in a way that would support what they wanted the outcome to be.

Them pointing out that DRK's need to use TBN more is spot on and something I have seen for myself, but not using defensive CD's as much as they should is a general issue I have encountered with many tanks regardless of job.

Another poster from that Reddit thread I feel hits the nail on the head with the way the confirmation bias of the poster affects a situation like the one regarding tanks not using defensives enough.

"How convenient for the intended and admittedly biased conclusion that when DRK abilities are being used incorrectly, it means DRK is better than it actually perceived. But when PLD and WAR abilities are being used incorrectly, it means that PLD and WAR aren't as good as perceived."

I would suggest people not just read the post itself but look through the comments as well, as there a number of good responses in there that echo my own feelings towards the analysis.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

The point of that post is that when it comes to total tank damage for compositions, dark is not an hindrance to the party, in other words, parties with dark knights are not taking more damage on average than a paladin warrior composition. The post does let go of the utility and dps argument though. It is not the be all end all in terms of is dark knight in the best place.

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It does, in fact, mention these points. They are not the focus, but they are mentioned. Raid utility gets a whole section and... your basic point is wrong anyways.

DRK is better than not a hindrance:

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The Blackest Night, when used effectively, puts a Dark Knight on the lowest-damage taken for single target mitigation.

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DRKs could be the easiest tank to heal instead of the hardest... if they but only used their cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

It does, in fact, mention these points. They are not the focus, but they are mentioned. Raid utility gets a whole section and... your basic point is wrong anyways.

DRK is better than not a hindrance:


DRKs could be the easiest tank to heal instead of the hardest... if they but only used their cooldowns.

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That wasn't actually accounted for in the data, it is opinion.

Why aren't Dark Knight players using TBN? Even the more overall skilled players in FFlogs? I've seen this study and certain other people continuously mention that it's the fault of the players, it just so happens that so many players of Dark Knight are horrible and refuse to use TBN because they don't have skill. Wait, but that doesn't make sense for only Dark Knight players to have a lack of skill. Surely there exist players who are skilled who try to push Dark Knight to their limits.
Taken from this angle, why is it not rewarding for skilled players to want to push Dark Knight to its limits, and/or instead of labeling all these players bad, is there something fundamental about TBN's nature that makes it unrewarding or annoying to use regularly?

...is it too hard to ask for the people who are attempting to shut down Dark Knight criticism to respond to these questions, too?

You guys missed the entire point of my post. TBN forces DRKS to not use half of there skills due to mana costs they balanced the entire class around that one skill killing any identity that is has. Many of the posts including mines are about just that. All you non drk players who constantly say why don't you just spam 1 button when people are saying hey i don't want this skill. In my OP I even said we need to advocate for its removal or nerfing.

Man can you people please read the thread.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Well, here's the counter-argument.

The only thing wrong with Dark Knight is you - a Damage Intake Analysis

I suppose it follows that Dark Knight might be simplified similar to how Warrior was.

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And the author of that has come to the forums to state that his work is being completely taken out of context.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

It does, in fact, mention these points. They are not the focus, but they are mentioned. Raid utility gets a whole section and... your basic point is wrong anyways.

DRK is better than not a hindrance:


DRKs could be the easiest tank to heal instead of the hardest... if they but only used their cooldowns.

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Just like, so you know, Chrono_Rising is one of the main contributors to that reddit post so you're actually arguing against one of the people who supplied the data.
And I'll admit, it's kind of amusing to watch, as Chrono was one of the driving forces behind that "so-called" counter argument and you've seemingly missed the entire point—as have most others. lol

Chrono and Emiin were referring to damage taken in that post, not damage done, not playstyle, not utility and certainly not strength.
Using their post for your argument against them is only going to make yourself; or anyone else, look foolish.

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

Just like, so you know, Chrono_Rising is one of the main contributors to that reddit post so you're actually arguing against one of the people who supplied the data.
And I'll admit, it's kind of amusing to watch, as Chrono was one of the driving forces behind that "so-called" counter argument and you've seemingly missed the entire point—as have most others. lol

Chrono and Emiin were referring to damage taken in that post, not damage done, not playstyle, not utility and certainly not strength.
Using their post for your argument against them is only going to make yourself; or anyone else, look foolish.

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Chrono's opinion is also very far distant from Emiin's. While Emiin believes DRK to be a good tank, Chrono believes it's in shambles. In either case, there's nothing wrong with arguing against Chrono, even if he pitched in. I do it all the time.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Chrono's opinion is also very far distant from Emiin's. While Emiin believes DRK to be a good tank, Chrono believes it's in shambles. In either case, there's nothing wrong with arguing against Chrono, even if he pitched in. I do it all the time.

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I'm not sure what your fascination with misrepresenting me is. Dark Knight needs a potency boost to be more competitive with paladin and warrior given its lack of a utility, while taking approximately the same amount of damage, and needs some quality of life tweaking. I've updated my opinion based on the study to more accurately reflect the situation. My opinion before was what I just said and a defensive boost, but that seems unnecessary. Oh and by the way, I think Emiin has echoed the opinion that dark knight does need a potency buff and quality of life attention.

Is dark knight broken to the point of being unplayable anis in shambles?
No.
Does it need attention?
Yes.
Do you like to ignore reality to push your personal motive against dark knight?
Seems like it.
Do I like answering my own questions?
More than anything.

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

TBN forces DRKS to not use half of there skills due to mana costs they balanced the entire class around that one skill killing any identity that is has.

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TBN just forces you to not use 1 Dark Arts and "reward" you with BloodSpiller if used effectively, for a roughly even DPS. People just need to realize that it's not a sin to keep some MP even if you have enough for one last Dark Arts.

I think its simple in sense that the way DRK play is keeping your manna pool low and you use DA after syphon put you above 2400 to use it on souleater. in that sense TBN is no relyable because most of time its grayed out due u have no manna.

In order to use TBN u need start doing instead 2x rotation of soul chain u use TBN in end and use Bloodspiller after.
Allways keeping manna between 50%-80% and using DA only when u hit 95% manna to avoid cap.

That req extra that u dont need do whit PLD shildron nor war raw.

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Originally Posted by Eliroth-Kaminari

Allways keeping manna between 50%-80% and using DA only when u hit 95% manna to avoid cap.

That req extra that u dont need do whit PLD shildron nor war raw.

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exactly. people are complaining that DRK needs a 3rd combo because we only press 1-2-3 over and over again. but DRK doesn't need another combo to make it more interesting. DRK is about resscource management. having always enough mana / blood to use your actions and spend it properly into damage or mitigation and never capping the resscources out is the key gameplay of DRK. not having a lot of different combos to keep buffs / debuffs running: that's what WARs do.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Is dark knight broken to the point of being unplayable anis in shambles?
No.
Does it need attention?
Yes.
Do you like to ignore reality to push your personal motive against dark knight?
Seems like it.
Do I like answering my own questions?
More than anything.

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Personal motive against DRK? Dude, I love the job! In case you've forgotten from our conversations, I've repeated time and time again DRK could use some QoL changes and small potency buffs, but nothing more. You seem to be under the impression that because I main one job, I can't possibly want another to succeed. But excuse me for believing your opinion was negative based on not-too-distant posts.

DRK players shouldn't be bottoming out their MP and should be trying to keep at least approximately 1 DA worth of MP in reserve so it is always ready for you to use things like TBN and CnS.

In a way it is similar to the way you would try to keep yourself from running too low on MP and Darkside falling off in 3.X.

The problem with this though is that you also want to keep your MP low enough so you don't cap and waste resource gain. So you are stuck between not wanting to go too low and not wanting it to get too high, which again is not that different than it was in 3.X, however now in 4.X you gain and burn through MP much faster which makes keeping your MP in the desired zone much more demanding, there simply isn't enough "wiggle room" which makes the feel of the resource management aspect feel cumbersome and clunky.

Personally I feel increasing DRK's resource pools of MP and Blood would help a lot in making the resource management game-play of DRK feel smoother and better. Of course other things need to be done as well to improve DRK game-play but that would be a step in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

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Discussing total damage taken is a red herring. The effectiveness of your mitigation depends on when you mitigate, rather than how much. Are you mitigating some random auto which is probably already covered by the incoming regen ticks? Or are you mitigating a tank buster that would have otherwise have killed you?

Here's an outcome measure that's actually relevant. Take a look at the relative damage output of each tank.

https://i.imgur.com/XLUhG9t.png
https://i.imgur.com/XZzI81q.png
https://i.imgur.com/NJ3ouUQ.png
https://i.imgur.com/i5BfepH.png
https://i.imgur.com/7uVLKHk.png

Here's another. Take a look at the pick rates of each tank.

https://i.imgur.com/1IzBOSO.png

Perhaps the most telling fact of all is that you can see players switch off of the job for progression and speed runs. If there's no problem with the job, why are you switching off of it outside of casual play?

The Steve Jobs-esque solution of "Don't hold it that way," is no solution at all. There are problems with gameplay. There are problems with balance. But most importantly, there's a problem in fun. That's what the playerbase is taking issue with. That's quite a bit harder to math out.

That's why a rework is necessary.