Level 50+ dungeons can be challenging

Speaking from experience, I find the dungeons here are not necessarily hard, but not really easy either. You have to know the fights and pay attention to boss mechanics.
It's quite different from other MMOs, where as a DPS, I just follow the tank, kill mobs and not stand in any bad stuff.

Here, it's like, "Kill the adds quick!", or "Don't kill the adds.", or "Draw the adds to the boss." or "Kill the bird for the shield but don't click the shield too early." or "Stand in the circles when they light up all around the room. Quickly!" Do all of the above while dodging AOE and various bad stuff on the ground. Messing up on anything at all will kill you instantly. (That's not an exaggeration.)

I often wonder if veterans of this game realize that not many MMOs in the West are made like FFXIV anymore. And that's a good thing! But it probably accounts for some of the bad play you might be seeing.

Just food for thought. :-)

well putting regen while the tank is gathering mobs is a Wow induced thing for sure imho

What games are you comparing XIV to here? It's pretty hard to die in level 50+ dungeons, and even if you do the chance of wiping is very low, healers can just raise you and there's no exp penalty or anything. I don't think I'd ever consider calling level 50 dungeons challenging just because you have to learn some basic mechs that most of the time don't kill you.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

What games are you comparing XIV to here? It's pretty hard to die in level 50+ dungeons, and even if you do the chance of wiping is very low, healers can just raise you and there's no exp penalty or anything. I don't think I'd ever consider calling level 50 dungeons challenging just because you have to learn some basic mechs that most of the time don't kill you.

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Games like WoW and SWTOR where you can honestly solo the dungeons. In WoW you can be half AFK and just follow the tank. Not kidding.

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Originally Posted by Lium

Games like WoW and SWTOR where you can honestly solo the dungeons. In WoW you can be half AFK and just follow the tank. Not kidding.

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Scholars can do that in low level dungeons since the fairy will heal the Tank. Also running a dungeon of a certain level or so undersized with a high item level makes it soloable.

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Originally Posted by Joe777

Scholars can do that in low level dungeons since the fairy will heal the Tank. Also running a dungeon of a certain level or so undersized with a high item level makes it soloable.

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Scholars that are overgeared (*cough* a 60+ scholar being put into a level 30 dungeon by roulette) can do that because the lack of ilvl sync will make their gear OP.

A lot of people forget what it was like when healing AT the level, especially if other people in the party were also AT the level.

Some of these dungeons, not all but some, are actually a bit tough when a person first gets to them in their level-appropriate (or worse, underleveled!) gear.

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Originally Posted by Squintina

Scholars that are overgeared (*cough* a 60+ scholar being put into a level 30 dungeon by roulette) can do that because the lack of ilvl sync will make their gear OP.

A lot of people forget what it was like when healing AT the level, especially if other people in the party were also AT the level.

Some of these dungeons, not all but some, are actually a bit tough when a person first gets to them in their level-appropriate (or worse, underleveled!) gear.

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Indeed breezing any dungeon would usually require gear be up to speed or above. A Scholar that can afk heal Copperbell for example would be a Scholar with gear at least above Lv20 or so.

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Originally Posted by Joe777

Indeed breezing any dungeon would usually require gear be up to speed or above. A Scholar that can afk heal Copperbell for example would be a Scholar with gear at least above Lv20 or so.

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Now you're just being ridiculous.
Don't even bother replying to me.

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Originally Posted by Joe777

Scholars can do that in low level dungeons since the fairy will heal the Tank. Also running a dungeon of a certain level or so undersized with a high item level makes it soloable.

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to be fair he was talking about level cap dungeons

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Originally Posted by Squintina

Now you're just being ridiculous.
Don't even bother replying to me.

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What is ridiculous about what I said? Sure the low level dungeons, even undergeared a bit, are not too difficult, but any high level Scholar in them could easily afk heal by following the Tank. As for like Lv70 dungeons yeah they're not difficult, but going in undergeared would certainly require effort to compensate for the disadvantage, thus not making it a "breeze" to clear. It's as simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Lium

Speaking from experience, I find the dungeons here are not necessarily hard, but not really easy either. You have to know the fights and pay attention to boss mechanics.
It's quite different from other MMOs, where as a DPS, I just follow the tank, kill mobs and not stand in any bad stuff.

Here, it's like, "Kill the adds quick!", or "Don't kill the adds.", or "Draw the adds to the boss." or "Kill the bird for the shield but don't click the shield too early." or "Stand in the circles when they light up all around the room. Quickly!" Do all of the above while dodging AOE and various bad stuff on the ground. Messing up on anything at all will kill you instantly. (That's not an exaggeration.)

I often wonder if veterans of this game realize that not many MMOs in the West are made like FFXIV anymore. And that's a good thing! But it probably accounts for some of the bad play you might be seeing.

Just food for thought. :-)

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Honestly, the level 50 dungeons provide more of a challenge than what you see in HW and SB. It's way too much catering to the casual base that there's really little challenge after Wanderers Palace Hard. Outside of undergeared players and folks who don't know how to use their job or are still learning them.

It's hard to die in level 50 dungeons, but then again, if your healer dies in an expert roulette dungeon boss fight these days and the DPS and tank do the last 50% of the boss without the healer being alive, maybe the measuring stick for difficulty is meaningless. You have to keep in mind this is the community that complained enough that they got Steps of Faith nerfed because they couldn't use party chat to coordinate the most basic of teamwork. The standard for difficulty for almost all content in this game is basically zero so that it excludes no one.

On the other hand, the "hardest" (or what I consider the most fun) dungeon isn't even level 50: Aurum Vale.

What you just described as "hard" does no pose a challenge to players who understands the basics of their jobs and have basic cognitive functions intact

Hence why I put it in quotes.

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Originally Posted by Lium

Speaking from experience, I find the dungeons here are not necessarily hard, but not really easy either. You have to know the fights and pay attention to boss mechanics.
It's quite different from other MMOs, where as a DPS, I just follow the tank, kill mobs and not stand in any bad stuff.

I often wonder if veterans of this game realize that not many MMOs in the West are made like FFXIV anymore. And that's a good thing!

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Is this a troll? This feels like a troll. XIV was based on modern MMO standards established by WoW. Gameplay that doesn't engage you is most definitely not a good thing and the fact that you're leveraging the idea of "follow and click" as being good only further adds to the scent of trolling.

They could make a MMO that featured character permadeath, and formatted your hard drive when you died too, people on forums would still complain its too easy.

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

You have to keep in mind this is the community that complained enough that they got Steps of Faith nerfed because they couldn't use party chat to coordinate the most basic of teamwork.

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Not everyone *can* co-ordinate for complex mechanics in party finder. Being on a Japanese server by geographic location, I’ll often be the only English speaker in a party. Or people might be on PS4 without a keyboard.

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well putting regen while the tank is gathering mobs is a Wow induced thing for sure imho

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Or, you know, a FFXI thing, considering "over time" effects did not affect enmity at all there (aside from initial application, like anything else)

These are pretty much the easiest dungeons in the genre, not sure what you mean.

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Originally Posted by AppleJinx

What you just described as "hard" does no pose a challenge to players who understands the basics of their jobs and have basic cognitive functions intact

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Some mechanics are intuitive but others aren’t. Do I need to stand in or out of this unusual circle marker? What does the arrow over my head mean, and should I be moving towards other party members / away from them / to a specific location / to a specific enemy? Even after going through dungeons multiple times I can’t work out what some mechanics actually do just by observing them.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Not everyone *can* co-ordinate for complex mechanics in party finder. Being on a Japanese server by geographic location, I’ll often be the only English speaker in a party. Or people might be on PS4 without a keyboard.

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I don't realistically think that holds much merit if the result of such a rare scenario is killing all challenge in the content.

Moreover, PS4 players have access to the onscreen keyboard, and it's not like cheap keyboards don't exist. I don't find that to be a good excuse for nerfing content.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

They could make a MMO that featured character permadeath, and formatted your hard drive when you died too, people on forums would still complain its too easy.

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But...it's not like we're wrong. The current dungeons after 50 get ridiculously easy for anybody that can do a decent job in their role.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

But...it's not like we're wrong. The current dungeons after 50 get ridiculously easy for anybody that can do a decent job in their role.

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Apparently paying attention to more than hitting buttons to attack is too hard though, haven't you heard?

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

But...it's not like we're wrong. The current dungeons after 50 get ridiculously easy for anybody that can do a decent job in their role.

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Try going into the lvl50 dungeons at the ilvl they had when they first launched, not the ilvl we have now. Different experience, eh?

Most high levels forget we are synced down to the maximum possible HP and stats. The 50 dungeons were designed for a lot lower, and its been a long time since players were using soldiery gear or worse in them; many new players use i90 unless someone explicitly tells them about poetics gear. Post 60 stuff is easier because they designed for a lot of returning players and level skippers who might be coming to the game cold turkey. Plus, alot of us here leveled 10+ jobs over the span of years in dungeons; how could it not be easy for us?

Honestly I hope they go and make savage extremely hard next tier, with the last fight being ultimate status. Too many ppl complaining about easy stuff when they really would get their butt kicked if it got any harder

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Originally Posted by SilverObi

Apparently paying attention to more than hitting buttons to attack is too hard though, haven't you heard?

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Lol. Let's be honest, asking anything in the leveling dungeons is somethings akin to the worst insult in the world.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Try going into the lvl50 dungeons at the ilvl they had when they first launched, not the ilvl we have now. Different experience, eh?

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But I wasn't talking about the level 50 dungeons...I was talking about 51+ dungeons, which start with the Dusk Vigil.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Honestly I hope they go and make savage extremely hard next tier, with the last fight being ultimate status. Too many ppl complaining about easy stuff when they really would get their butt kicked if it got any harder

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What is your dysfunction? Whenever someone says something is easy, you aren't too far away. What is the deal?

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

What is your dysfunction? Whenever someone says something is easy, you aren't too far away. What is the deal?

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Oh, because OP is right. The dungeons aren't hard, but aren't entirely easy compared to other MMOs. And of course, people have to say opposite, because we can't even budge an inch on how painfully easy everything in this game due to gamer culture. So yet again, the forum must get together and express their hardcore bonafides.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Oh, because OP is right. The dungeons aren't hard, but aren't entirely easy compared to other MMOs. And of course, people have to say opposite, because we can't even budge an inch on how painfully easy everything in this game due to gamer culture. So yet again, the forum must get together and express their hardcore bonafides.

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If the devs continued their dungeon trend as they did with the ARR dungeons, we probably wouldn't even be in this boat. Honestly, it would probably be players crying for nerfs if the dungeons kept getting challenging. In some ways, I think some other MMOs might've done their difficulty progression better. It's something Yoshi could definitely start pulling from, as he likes to draw inspiration from other games anyways.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

If the devs continued their dungeon trend as they did with the ARR dungeons, we probably wouldn't even be in this boat.

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I think HW's difficulty was in its rotations. I doubt you'd like to do savage needing to toggle clerics, for example. The rotations they had were punishing, forced players to stay in place, and required high skill or you lost significant DPS. If you added hard dungeons to that, you'd have the casual equivalent of HW's first two raids. The difficulty was reflected in the moveset for HW's new classes; all of them were more complex than the ARR jobs, at least at launch, where SB's new jobs are simpler. And the ARR jobs were harder in HW too; BRD and BLM in particular.

I mean, Neverreap was loathed, and it wasn't hard per se, just annoying because HW rotations were so very fragile DPS couldn't adapt. It would have been funny to see actual hard dungeons then.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I think HW's difficulty was in its rotations. I doubt you'd like to do savage needing to toggle clerics, for example. The rotations they had were punishing, forced players to stay in place, and required high skill or you lost significant DPS. If you added hard dungeons to that, you'd have the casual equivalent of HW's first two raids. The difficulty was reflected in the moveset for HW's new classes; all of them were more complex than the ARR jobs, at least at launch, where SB's new jobs are simpler. And the ARR jobs were harder in HW too; BRD and BLM in particular.

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I wouldn't know...I was a monk for 3.5 and most of 3.56 before switched to DRK. I did play around a little with WHM...cleric stancing didn't seem too hard, but then again, I wasn't at the point where I could run Alex Savage, though I got close right before SB dropped.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I wouldn't know...I was a monk for 3.5 and most of 3.56 before switched to DRK.

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MNK and WHM were the least changed classes, I think. MNK actually had the same issues it does now, with the post 50 kit not really helping as much as it should, and WHM was functionally the same. Your AST was really bad at launch, and Yoshi tried to wave it off as the playerbase not playing it right before buffing it. I think BLM saw the worst difficulty spike with enochian, and BRD's salt over cast times was legendary. I liked DRG in ARR but HW I couldn't even play it; its rotation is linear but really precise.

IDK what would have happened if they did increase dungeon difficulty.

I killed quite a few friends when I started learning how to heal in HW. Misclicking or mistiming Cleric's Stance would usually result in a pretty hilarious couple of seconds of panicking since you couldn't immediately turn it back off and until it was gone your heals would make you cry.

Barring notable examples like BLM (Enochian was horrible) and MCH (pumping everything into Wildfire/Mildfire), though, I didn't personally find any of the HW rotations to be particularly unwieldy. They took more effort - if not an actual community-made guide - compared to their lv50 incarnations, but that's sort of the point of the dungeons to begin with: Casual content used to improve.

On the actual subject of the thread: I more or less despise every dungeon after Aurum Vale save The Vault by virtue of them essentially throwing out all of the lessons taught from Haukke Manor through Aurum Vale. Precision pulling, watching for roaming mobs, prioritizing dangerous monsters (for the most part)? They don't mean anything for lv50 and lv60+ dungeons. Even SB's leveling dungeons didn't bother; Dusk Vigil has a pretty gnarly stat scale that frequently caught tanks off-guard, whereas Sirensong Sea was just "yeah sure, pull whatever like usual." It was disappointing. /oldmanyellsatsky

That's not really improving, that's putting up fake difficulty through making the interface harder. If anything I think the HW rotations were too brittle to enable any improvement; something like byakko ex would have been a nightmare with the HW set. All the boss and player movement would have broken buffs left and right with a much higher threshold of player skill. As for jobs, I remember DRG especially because I couldn't even fit all my abilities on a full 24 slot crossbar; there were so many dps up buffs that it was absurd. It's been years though. I actually mained WHM in HW precisely because it was one of the easiest classes in that expansion.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

MNK and WHM were the least changed classes, I think. MNK actually had the same issues it does now, with the post 50 kit not really helping as much as it should, and WHM was functionally the same. Your AST was really bad at launch, and Yoshi tried to wave it off as the playerbase not playing it right before buffing it. I think BLM saw the worst difficulty spike with enochian, and BRD's salt over cast times was legendary. I liked DRG in ARR but HW I couldn't even play it; its rotation is linear but really precise.

IDK what would have happened if they did increase dungeon difficulty.

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There are times when I wished I had jumped into MMOs earlier just so I could understand the struggle. (Plus, I'd probably have the Alex tier under my belt if I had).

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

As for jobs, I remember DRG especially because I couldn't even fit all my abilities on a full 24 slot crossbar; there were so many dps up buffs that it was absurd.

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Nah, it fit onto two tabs of my cross hotbar effortlessly. Just had to remove a couple of buttons we didn't use anyway like Keen Flurry and whatever the hell the slow effect one was whose name completely escapes me because I never used it outside of PvP. I made it a point to never have Ring of Thorns on my bar, too. Drove me nuts seeing DF DRGs spamming that because they were too lazy to line up Doom Spike, assuming they AoE'd at all. BRD's the one that had a buttload of offensive CDs. Seeing them slowly wind up in the 10 seconds leading up to pull always made me question Square's sanity a bit.

I really can't stress how much I loved the HW DRG rotation though! It was smooth and I loved it (except for all the bosses running away/becoming invincible and killing BotD, which still frequently happens).

50+ dungeons hard, did I play another game?

You need like 0,01% common sense for these where as 50- dungeons requires 0,00% common sense.

They are not hard.

I think you guys need a revival and incentive to run old raids ^^, on topic of the title I don't really have anything to contribute >.<