Why do people say no?

Why do people say no to anything FFXI? Doesn't make sense seeing this chart......... http://static.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl...36kgy8gt57.jpg

I honestly don't know, I didn't think it was all bad, I mean on the content side not the horrible grind to the level cap.

I like how the JP section doesn't even have a "I've never played an online game."

Well...technically that chart tells us that only 12-20 percent of the users played FFXI.

But still XI was fantastic in many aspects and we should take the great things we can from it. (specifically the wide and varied locales)

Well, everything sofar seems to be following the same updating path as FFXI. So I've never understood this whole argument one way or another. The only real difference was FFXI got up to par much quicker than FFXIV has.

FFXI launch was really bad, I think people forget that. Kind of like how they'll forget FFXIV launch.

I really think more than half of the population came from FFXI, the people I know who play this game who didn't play XI knew someone who played XI and were jealous they didn't play the game in its prime. You can make an all FFXI ls with no problem on my server, without even trying to be an elitist. But being on Selbina it might be a little skewed being a server named after a FFXI town.

Lots say no because people (that say no) assume someone is asking for Eorzea to turn into Vana`diel -- yet they somehow find it perfectly ok for Eorzea to turn into Azeroth or Arborea even though the thought process is the exact same of those who suggest FFXI features or content concepts -- take what works, put a spin of it to make it work even better.

All MMOs does it -- heck Rift only succeeded because it did it and SWTOR only got popular because it does something another MMO hasn't done yet and it's based around one of the most popular sagas to ever exist, but people's personal vendetta against XI or jaded experience makes them assume someone suggests a sequel or direct copy. People should be complaining we're getting Black Mage and White Mage, they appeared in FFXI as well because clearly it's not a bad thing to use something from a previous game in the same series. >.>

What a lot of people who never touched FFXI doesn't realize is SE created a Final Fantasy MMO prior to XIV, as well as a Front Mission MMO -- they had all of the experience and know how to create a very solid and amazing MMO, but they threw it out because they wanted to differentiate XIV from XI for the sake of it, a mistake they later admit. (It's fine to make it different from XI story wise, but all FFs flowed off of each other without being direct sequels, it's what made the series work.)

I do not particularly believe it is a mistake to simply throw away everything and attempt something entirely new and unrelated. How else are we going to figure out what sorts of innovations work or not? Same way it's perfectly alright to go "Okay, that didn't work out at all. Time to do what we know that works"

I say, really, that most of the people who complain about XI (and, you know, are people who actually know what they are talking about, which is about only 10% of the forums) are really just jaded about it's bad parts (the obnoxious grind, clunky elements) and don't want that to spoil this new game.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Why do people say no to anything FFXI? Doesn't make sense seeing this chart......... http://static.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl...36kgy8gt57.jpg

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I think the folks saying no to the whole FFXI-2 deal may be:
*They left Vana'diel, possibly on bad terms, remembering the bad things more than the good.
RL-equivalent: For an ex-, on a bitter break-up, it's easier to focus on all the bad things about the relationship. The good memories/aspects get overshadowed.

*Looking for a different experience than the one they had or other than what FFXI evolved into.
RL-equivalent: For an ex-, if the break-up was mutual... they want to explore what else is out there. And they're hoping the new relationship doesn't become a younger, prettier version of their previous relationship. Others may not mind this so much.

I'm just putting words in people's mouths, I don't know what they think even though they've posted it all over the place. Hehe.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Well...technically that chart tells us that only 12-20 percent of the users played FFXI.

But still XI was fantastic in many aspects and we should take the great things we can from it. (Chains of Promathia, and Treasures of Aht Uhrgan)

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I fixed that for you. (in BOLD)

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Lots say no because people (that say no) assume someone is asking for Eorzea to turn into Vana`diel -- yet they somehow find it perfectly ok for Eorzea to turn into Azeroth or Arborea

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Not only are you making a strawman argument here about anyone here wanting this game to be Azeroth, but you're denying the fact that there are those here who really want XI-2

FFXI (Chains of Promathia) for the win...

Because XI was built around a gratuitous amount of time sinks.

Yes this is an MMO and there should be long term goals. But what people don't want is the time-locked walls every few steps. 24-72 hour HNMS, 72 hour lock out on Dynamis, low pop rates in the botted claim-fest known as Sky. The list goes on.

It's not that people are against things like XI endgame events, they're against having to play according to the game's schedule.

I personally hope the dungeons in 1.21 are more something like sky or even Einherjar and that Hamlet Defense is like Campaign. But that the XIV twist is continuing low reentry restrictions like Primals.

If XIV is going to compete, then the core of the game needs to be accessible on a players own schedule.

Chains of Promathia, imho, was a great story and had some really challenging fights, but as far as gameplay itself is concerned Treasures of Aht Urghan was better. The story wasn't as good, but between Beseiged, Nyzul Isle, Assault, Eihnerjahr, it had more gameplay options then Chains of Promathia had. Also, anybody could participate with only one completed mission into the main storyline, unlike CoP and Zilart, which required you to be almost finished with the missions to gain access to sea and sky. Then again, that's just me, your mileage may vary.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

Because XI was built around a gratuitous amount of time sinks.

Yes this is an MMO and there should be long term goals. But what people don't want is the time-locked walls every few steps. 24-72 hour HNMS, 72 hour lock out on Dynamis, low pop rates in the botted claim-fest known as Sky. The list goes on.

It's not that people are against things like XI endgame events, they're against having to play according to the game's schedule.

I personally hope the dungeons in 1.21 are more something like sky or even Einherjar and that Hamlet Defense is like Campaign. But that the XIV twist is continuing low reentry restrictions like Primals.

If XIV is going to compete, then the core of the game needs to be accessible on a players own schedule.

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Long time sinks that were all accessible. You didn't need to farm Land Kings. You didn't need to enter Dynamisis. The content was there for those who wanted it. All the story based content was readily available for ANYONE and everyone. You could spend two hours a day and achieve everything that was intended for the majority.
The problem was not XI, it's the players that want instant gratification. They have this arbitrary way of thinking that because they don't have the time to do certain things in the game, the game doesn't cater to their needs. The game offered something for everyone; YES, EVEN SOLOERS.

Not that reasoning and logic works with these people.

I think its basically because people have played FF11 and they don't want the same experience again, they want something new.

I played FF11 for 5 years and although it had some really great stuff it also had some really shitty stuff as well, its one of the only games where I actually felt like I was working instead of having fun.

Obviously its all completely changed now with the addition of Abyssea's and I'm sure nobody wants it to follow in those footsteps either.

I'm ok with them bringing over certain aspects like level sync but think they also need to have new idea's to complement them.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Lots say no because people (that say no) assume someone is asking for Eorzea to turn into Vana`diel -- yet they somehow find it perfectly ok for Eorzea to turn into Azeroth or Arborea

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Again you are talking out of your backside.

Personally I think Vanadiel has a much better world and lore than the other's you list including Erozea but it doesn't mean I want FF14 to emulate them.

Honestly... because at it's height... FFXI did 500k in subs....
and FFXIV did more than that (albeit no one stayed) on a poor PC launch with really high system requirements and no consoles based off of only a promise from Tanaka that FFXIV was drastically different than FFXI

I love FFXI... but going by the numbers.... I don't know that I would have patterned the next SE MMO after it either...
there is a difference between profitable and successful

^ hehe I'm sure at this point SE would settle for profitable. :P

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Originally Posted by Jinko

^ hehe I'm sure at this point SE would settle for profitable. :P

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hahaha... I bet you're right....

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Why do people say no to anything FFXI? Doesn't make sense seeing this chart......... http://static.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl...36kgy8gt57.jpg

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Personally, I'm against adding things from XI strictly and only because it was in XI. If it's a good idea, sure go for it. I have no issue with taking good ideas from XI and implementing them in XIV with adjustments to work with XIV. Mostly I want XIV to be its own game, not just XI-2.

Again there's nothing wrong with adding good ideas from XI, though not without adjustments to suit XIV. Some things can't really be strictly copy/pasted. Also if they can make the ideas better, why not? Copy/pasting systems just to suit nostalgic players isn't a good idea. Take the idea, make it better, add an XIV twist. Make it a new thing for a new game.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Why do people say no to anything FFXI? Doesn't make sense seeing this chart......... http://static.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl...36kgy8gt57.jpg

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is this chart based on games that people tried or games that people maintained a subscription to for over a year or so. Id say they are 2 very different things.

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Originally Posted by Lucifer

Long time sinks that were all accessible. You didn't need to farm Land Kings. You didn't need to enter Dynamisis. The content was there for those who wanted it. All the story based content was readily available for ANYONE and everyone. You could spend two hours a day and achieve everything that was intended for the majority.
The problem was not XI, it's the players that want instant gratification. They have this arbitrary way of thinking that because they don't have the time to do certain things in the game, the game doesn't cater to their needs. The game offered something for everyone; YES, EVEN SOLOERS.

Not that reasoning and logic works with these people.

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I'm hesitant to even respond, being familiar with your trolling. But for the sake of conversation I'll say that the majority doesn't want instant gratification. It's just most people aren't of the opinion that being locked out of content doesn't equate challenge as many XI die hards seem to believe.

Waiting 3+ hours to see a mob pop claimed or having another LS rush the Dynamis zone you had scheduled just was not fun.

And as for "content for soloers" in XI, what was there in the CoP hay day? By level 10 soloable mobs gave single digit exp. so there was farming crawlers or bees as pretty much the only soloable activity worth anyone's time.

XI was a decent game. But if the mechanics it had really were as great as some people make it out to have been, then the game would have peaked higher than the 500,000 or so subscribers at which it once topped out. Especially compared to what other MMOs have managed to pull in.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Why do people say no to anything FFXI? Doesn't make sense seeing this chart......... http://static.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl...36kgy8gt57.jpg

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we dont say no because its in 11

we say no when peoples reasons for wanting it is that its in 11(and theres no basis other then that behind it)

BCNM
Offered the drops you wanted and all you had to do was put in the time.

It was all there. FFXI was the definition of an MMORPG.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

I'm hesitant to even respond, being familiar with your trolling. But for the sake of conversation I'll say that the majority doesn't want instant gratification. It's just most people aren't of the opinion that being locked out of content doesn't equate challenge as many XI die hards seem to believe.

Waiting 3+ hours to see a mob pop claimed or having another LS rush the Dynamis zone you had scheduled just was not fun.

And as for "content for soloers" in XI, what was there in the CoP hay day? By level 10 soloable mobs gave single digit exp. so there was farming crawlers or bees as pretty much the only soloable activity worth anyone's time.

XI was a decent game. But if the mechanics it had really were as great as some people make it out to have been, then the game would have peaked higher than the 500,000 or so subscribers at which it once topped out. Especially compared to what other MMOs have managed to pull in.

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skilled battle>claim war

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BCNM
Offered the drops you wanted and all you had to do was put in the time.

It was all there. FFXI was the definition of an MMORPG.

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exactly the rewards go to people who have all the time in the world to waste and not necessarily the talent.

Here is the ultimate FFXI vs FFXI-2 vs FFXIV statement....

Listen closely or you guys might miss it amidst your bickering

People....
want....
content!!!!

thats it... FFXI had tons of it...
New MMO's hardly ever have enough.. and this game had less than what was adequate for even a fresh new MMO

FFXI-2 with this same amount of content (zero at launch) would have been met with the same criticism...
I can't stress that enough....
FFXI was out for a long time and had more content than the Library of congress

FFXI also had the right idea by having a million different types of content too.... So it wasn't just 2000 NM's... it was zones and zones of unique activities....

Now if you're saying FFXIV needs to recapture the spirit of that.. then yes... we can all agree with that....

But to say you want FFXI-2... really? would that really be a smart move for SE?

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

skilled battle>claim war



exactly the rewards go to people who have all the time in the world to waste and not necessarily the talent.

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but you're wrong.
The time was only used in collecting seals. The battles were still there to be fought.

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Originally Posted by Lucifer

but you're wrong.
The time was only used in collecting seals. The battles were still there to be fought.

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well i quoted you, you said all you need is time.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

well i quoted you, you said all you need is time.

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Well I could have specified more, but that's silly of you to go on just that.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Here is the ultimate FFXI vs FFXI-2 vs FFXIV statement....

Listen closely or you guys might miss it amidst your bickering

People....
want....
content!!!!

thats it... FFXI had tons of it...
New MMO's hardly ever have enough.. and this game had less than what was adequate for even a fresh new MMO

FFXI-2 with this same amount of content (zero at launch) would have been met with the same criticism...
I can't stress that enough....
FFXI was out for a long time and had more content than the Library of congress

FFXI also had the right idea by having a million different types of content too.... So it wasn't just 2000 NM's... it was zones and zones of unique activities....

Now if you're saying FFXIV needs to recapture the spirit of that.. then yes... we can all agree with that....

But to say you want FFXI-2... really? would that really be a smart move for SE?

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to a point, but the type of content as well. i think people already see this game turning into a 8man static for years to play it. wheres the 32man runs and the 64man runs? i think not just having content but specific types of content is important to. i was expecting full linkshell run events, not just small man stuff that lets face it in ffxi (like salvage and nyzle) wasn't even done by linkshells like other mmo's.

this game started with 15man crabs and now is pushing out 8man dungeons and burning circles that they call content. this isn't content. dynamisis is content, limbus is content, sky ..sea is content. cop missions is content, solo'ing your story is not content. small run stuff is ok for pvp games not pve. swtor has a skimpy 16man endgame and that is just weak to me. it took 15man to do the nm's at one time and that was great, till the destroyed them all in ffxiv. (it was very fun, took dkp and in the end i thought of them as smaller versions of what was to come that needed full shells to do)

so yes content but in a very ffxi way i think is what i want. not like other mmo's that all have copy'd this small group and solo mentality. theres a place for all of it but not all of it like mmo's are all pushing out these days.

and yes i know that crystal towers is on the way for 2.0 and i wish i knew more about it, it is probably the only real reason in my head that i plan on coming back and staying. that is if it is done like ffxi, not like any old content. if it ends up being a 16man thing i probably won't stay. i don't want the same bs from guild run mmo's i want full linkshell run things. theres a difference in my opinion with players that use the world linkshell or guild. i want ffxiv to stay linkshell and not be a guild underneath.

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Originally Posted by weeble

to a point, but the type of content as well. i think people already see this game turning into a 8man static for years to play it. wheres the 32man runs and the 64man runs? i think not just having content but specific types of content is important to. i was expecting full linkshell run events, not just small man stuff that lets face it in ffxi (like salvage and nyzle) wasn't even done by linkshells like other mmo's.

this game started with 15man crabs and now is pushing out 8man dungeons and burning circles that they call content. this isn't content. dynamisis is content, limbus is content, sky ..sea is content. cop missions is content, solo'ing your story is not content. small run stuff is ok for pvp games not pve. swtor has a skimpy 16man endgame and that is just weak to me. it took 15man to do the nm's at one time and that was great, till the destroyed them all in ffxiv.

so yes content but in a very ffxi way i think is what i want. not like other mmo's that all have copy'd this small group and solo mentality. theres a place for all of it but not all of it like mmo's are all pushing out these days.

and yes i know that crystal towers is on the way for 2.0 and i wish i knew more about it, it is probably the only real reason in my head that i plan on coming back and staying. that is if it is done like ffxi, not like any old content. if it ends up being a 16man thing i probably won't stay. i don't want the same bs from guild run mmo's i want full linkshell run things. theres a difference in my opinion with players that use the world linkshell or guild. i want ffxiv to stay linkshell and not be a guild underneath.

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theyve said before they cant do huge battle on these servers because of the amount of characters visible on screen. its in the 30-40 range i forget the exact amount.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

theyve said before they cant do huge battle on these servers because of the amount of characters visible on screen. its in the 30-40 range i forget the exact amount.

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but they changing servers ...that is what 2.0 is really all about no? bad servers or not they started the game off like i said with 15man being the normal number, i'm sure you understand then that they had ever intention then to make end content huge. the problem with only being able to handle30-40 would be now and not after 2.0 with the absolutely new servers. i think?

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Originally Posted by weeble

but they changing servers ...that is what 2.0 is really all about no? bad servers or not they started the game off like i said with 15man being the normal number, i'm sure you understand then that they had ever intention then to make end content huge. the problem with only being able to handle30-40 would be now and not after 2.0 with the absolutely new servers. i think?

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yea, i know. after 2.0 im sure they will have bigger content. they have already stated that massive PvE is inthe works.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

yea, i know. after 2.0 im sure they will have bigger content. they have already stated that massive PvE is inthe works.

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that was what my post was about, after 2.0. i understand that they can't add anything now. i know the time line and waiting it out. but the post still speaks of what i want from 2.0 and beyond ..it's the absolute of what will keep me here or have me leave. i don't need a every other mmo with a final fantasy story. like many i want all the meaty fun stuff of ffxi over any other mmo out there.

besides everyone left ffxiv for the most part right? so what you think they doing as we speak? they are playing all those other mmo's. and then what? ffxiv going to feed us that same garbage we just played? i don't think that will work out for them very well either.

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Originally Posted by weeble

that was what my post was about, after 2.0. i understand that they can't add anything now. i know the time line and waiting it out. but the post still speaks of what i want from 2.0 and beyond ..it's the absolute of what will keep me here or have me leave. i don't need a every other mmo with a final fantasy story. like many i want all the meaty fun stuff of ffxi over any other mmo out there.

besides everyone left ffxiv for the most part right? so what you think they doing as we speak? they are playing all those other mmo's. and then what? ffxiv going to feed us that same garbage we just played? i don't think that will work out for them very well either.

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to a point, but the type of content as well. i think people already see this game turning into a 8man static for years to play it

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well this line confused me because it seems you were saying people were making assumptions based on current game play instead of what is expected from final version.i will call it final version for now on cause the phrase2.0 is annoying now.

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Originally Posted by weeble

like many i want all the meaty fun stuff

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This applies to everything, hue.

I also have to say I disagree with how soloing the main story isn't content. Hell, the fact that you CAN do that is what got me interested in XIV in first place.

Also yes, what people want from XI is the huge amount of content they have, content of all sorts, enough fun and varied content that the utterly shitty and broken mechanics of that game were bearable just for that (or at least is what my friends say, I have never play that game).

Which one can never expect from a recently-launched MMO even if this were launched in the state they plan 2.0 to be like.

That said, I am in fact hoping for the wealth of content and specifically storytelling that the FF series is known for.

how is solo'ing a story line in probably a total of a few hours content? yes it's a good story but in the end that is all it is. the last boss took me a few tries cause it took a bit to figure out the canons, but that is about it. other then that it took one try threw the hole thing. no dry runs as we called it in ffxi, no dying repeatedly. no anything, but i figure this would or could change for 2.0 and beyond.

if anything if they going to copy the easy route that other mmo's taking there content then at least add a hardmode like others are doing so after you do it first time there is a much harder version of it to do without having to read threw the story. but even then it will feel broken off from the game more then if it was straight threw the story.

it's official i'ma have to become a millionaire and a programmer and make my own mmo! :)

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Originally Posted by Isaveron

Not only are you making a strawman argument here about anyone here wanting this game to be Azeroth, but you're denying the fact that there are those here who really want XI-2

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Was wondering when your insecure self would post since as usual you personally have to deny that no one wants a direct sequel and have to say people do whenever FFXI is mentioned. You have to be a pretty big idiot to not realize a lot of people say using features from WoW, Archage, Tera or DAoC isn't the same line of thinking as someone who mentions using features from XI. That's not an a strawman argument, it's common sense.

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Originally Posted by weeble

how is solo'ing a story line in probably a total of a few hours content? yes it's a good story but in the end that is all it is. the last boss took me a few tries cause it took a bit to figure out the canons, but that is about it. other then that it took one try threw the hole thing. no dry runs as we called it in ffxi, no dying repeatedly. no anything, but i figure this would or could change for 2.0 and beyond.

if anything if they going to copy the easy route that other mmo's taking there content then at least add a hardmode like others are doing so after you do it first time there is a much harder version of it to do without having to read threw the story. but even then it will feel broken off from the game more then if it was straight threw the story.

it's official i'ma have to become a millionaire and a programmer and make my own mmo! :)

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I'll be honest... I think hard mode is a lazy way to add challenging content.