Darkhold, could it be better?

I enjoy the two bosses on Darkhold, it's fun, however I don't enjoy you just run through everything(no real strategy or adventure). As most of you people know, Darkhold has multiple levels to it. You can look down and see other platforms going places, other bridges and what not. So don't you guys think it would be cool to see other adventures fighting through the depths of the dark? Having multiple instanced nms, along with normal nms? Secret areas?

The real question is:

Could it be worse?

I'm cool with it, but only as long as not every future 'dungeon' of this type is exactly the same time limit.
If they are all one hour max, that would be a real shame.
Vary it up a bit. have 60 minute ones, 90 minute ones, 120 minute ones, 30 minute ones, and heck, have some 10 hour one or two for the hardcores.

It could be much better.

Remove the mechanic where mobs run back to their spawn points... make it if you run through the mobs never stop chasing you down. (Stop the stupid run through everything tactic)

Make the drops worthwhile.

Fix those 2 things, and the dungeon is not bad.

Make it really good add multiple paths which make you choose which one you do, similar to salvage in XI. (STOP BEING LINEAR)

The idea of more optional nms/bosses and such I also support.

I support them removing a time limit and making what feels like a real themed instance instead of what it has right now which is > run > run > stop > run > teleport > run.

Darkhold is fine as long as they don't make every dungeon like it. I would also prefer if they stopped making the entire area instanced. I like the idea of going into a dungeon and maybe having different branches instanced or maybe just the fights instanced. Maybe NMs that unlock instanced fights all inside the dungeon. Something unique, not these simple linear instanced dungeon runs.

Also, definitely fix the return to territory AI. It's not just annoying in dungeons, it's annoying everywhere else and nearly broken in some places like wolf camp in Natalan.

The only thing I dislike about Darkhold, is how the trash mobs were handled. It's weird, silly, and counter intuitive.

If you are going to put trash mobs into a dungeon, do two things: 1) Make it so you have to fight them; 2) Have currency/rare drops from the trash themselves.

Dynamis was always fun even when fighting the trash monsters because, first the trash mobs were somewhat more interesting than most monsters, and, they tended to drop cool things from time to time.

Otherwise, just avoid random/pointless monsters that are just filler.

Darkhold was the perfect opportunity for a Nyzul/Einherjer like dungeon setup, especially because of all the trash mobs littered throughout.

I swear Yoshi-P..Crystal Tower better be at minimum FFIII amazing and not Darkhold like :|

Would Dzemael have been better if there was no time limit? -- But after beating the monsters they respawn very slowly or not at all, so you do need to continue deeper instead of just farming for items or EXP.

The time limit and need to do a speed run in order to get the 5th chest is what causes the current "run to the chests and bosses" method.

Whenever we have someone who is doing Dzamael for the first time, we will always fighting our way through at least once so they can at least experience it.
It's really fun to fight your way through, but of course getting to Batraal or even the Ogre seldom happens when doing it that way because we just run out of time.

If it's an experienced group then we just run to the chests and bosses because there is no benefit in fighting the monsters along the way.

Hopefully the crystal tower isn't instanced ; ;, but I have a feeling it's going to be.

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I swear Yoshi-P..Crystal Tower better be at minimum FFIII amazing and not Darkhold like :|

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Well now that was one of the all time great dungeons IMO, so if it's THAT good ...

Why would you not want something to be instanced, particularly on the first day it is released? If it wasn't you'd have to sit there camping whatever objective you want to get done. Content gets flooded on patch days and the weekend that follows. Having some major content, like a dungeon, be open world just isn't part of the mmo model anymore and likely won't be (and shouldn't be) for 2.0. This is of course assuming they intend something like the tower to be some sort of important end game content.

Open world content needs to be just that--open. Dynamic and accessible to all on patch day is another prereq to it too. I know many have their strong "pro-FF" mentality, but you really must think critically about the implementation of future content. No one likes to have their exp camp jacked for example and that kinda conflict only occurs in open world. If that was end game, we'd have the same issues experienced in RoZ expansion.

First off, I would be assuming you would have to DO STUFF befor getting anywhere, and lots of people are slow on that(like me). Sooo it wont be flooded with people, also what is a world with no people in it?

Just forget I said anything before this goes back to an instance vs open world discussion that will never end.

Time Limits in dungeons is fine. What I don't like about the Dark Hold, like some others have already stated, is the fact that if you want that 5th chest, you have run past everything.

A nice solution would be to handle is like Limbus. Kill key mobs and be rewarded time extensions, or kill key mobs to unlock the gates.
It would be nice to see some dungeons tied to GC. for every mob kill you get x amount of GC seals

Anyways I hope the dark hold is the only style dungeon where you're not encouraged to fight your way through.

I think it would be interesting if the player could set the amount of time they want to spend in the dungeon. While I would like to see U/U gear support Materia to encourage multiple play throughs, I really would like dungeons to evolve into areas with multiple paths, multiple bosses, optional bosses, secret NMs, etc.

The time limit is good as it allows player to know how much time it takes, however, it's bad because it doesn't allow for the since of adventure.

I support optional time limits, but really hope dungeons grow :)

Nobody will ever do Darkhold again anyways because the drops are, in many instances, equal to or less than equipment that can be purchased off the Markets for around 25k.

I've been doing dark hold, lots of people do it still, those are all collector items(I like to collect rare/ex gear). I hope the new "dungeons" are going to be good D: You probably get your af gear in em.

Darkhold is kinda fun, but what about a dungeon that starts you off with ten minutes and allows you to earn time extensions along the way?

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Originally Posted by GreyJorildyn

Why would you not want something to be instanced, particularly on the first day it is released? If it wasn't you'd have to sit there camping whatever objective you want to get done. Content gets flooded on patch days and the weekend that follows. Having some major content, like a dungeon, be open world just isn't part of the mmo model anymore and likely won't be (and shouldn't be) for 2.0. This is of course assuming they intend something like the tower to be some sort of important end game content.

Open world content needs to be just that--open. Dynamic and accessible to all on patch day is another prereq to it too. I know many have their strong "pro-FF" mentality, but you really must think critically about the implementation of future content. No one likes to have their exp camp jacked for example and that kinda conflict only occurs in open world. If that was end game, we'd have the same issues experienced in RoZ expansion.

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I disagree, all dungeons should be open world. There is not point and having these dungeons instances. In open world you have competition, and that is fine with me. In an instance you can only go in if you have anywhere from 2-8 people. I dont like being forced to party up just to explore any area. I want the freedom to come and go in an area as I see fit. Any zone that is instanced I personally will only do it one time and never return to it. I want the freedom to farm or what not w/o having to get other players. There is nothing wrong with dungeons and such being open world unless of course you done like competition. BOO HOO because some 1 there is camping and instead of who ever coming back later they bitch, moan and groan because that cant do what ever it is right than and there. Now you cant say i can only do it at this time or what ever little excuse people can come up with because you can come back another time or better yet another day. Most stuff has no time limit so there is no need to rush and have to do it that second.

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Originally Posted by Maxthunder

I disagree, all dungeons should be open world. There is not point and having these dungeons instances. In open world you have competition, and that is fine with me. In an instance you can only go in if you have anywhere from 2-8 people. I dont like being forced to party up just to explore any area. I want the freedom to come and go in an area as I see fit. Any zone that is instanced I personally will only do it one time and never return to it. I want the freedom to farm or what not w/o having to get other players. There is nothing wrong with dungeons and such being open world unless of course you done like competition. BOO HOO because some 1 there is camping and instead of who ever coming back later they bitch, moan and groan because that cant do what ever it is right than and there. Now you cant say i can only do it at this time or what ever little excuse people can come up with because you can come back another time or better yet another day. Most stuff has no time limit so there is no need to rush and have to do it that second.

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i don't agree with either you or grey. there should be dungeons that are open world and instanced. i don't enjoy the instanced myself, but there should be just as many of them as there is open world so people can have a choice of what they want to do.

TWO WORDS

[SIZE="5"]Dynamic Dungeons. [/SIZE]

The idea is VERY solid and one that I find to be EXTREMELY enjoyable for someone of ANY level range.

Games have done this with a difficulty selection at the start of the dungeon, while others have made the dungeon scale to the average level of the group/player.

I feel that either of these methods or a combination of the two would be an EXCELLENT addition and facelift to the current state of our end game content.

In dynamic dungeons, various and random Rare/ex gear would drop based on the collective average level of the party. This gear would have random stats and looks depending on the dungeons difficulty and current level range. Since the gear is untradeable, the worry of having too many different kinds of equipment on the market could be avoided.

At the end of the dungeon, the final fight would have a more predictable set of loot drop that would be much more powerful than the previous gear, but still dynamic.

Since the end dungeon gear isn't random like the previous drops, a quest system could be put in place to allow the gear to be upgraded in various ways depending on what the players preferences were.

These quests would more than likely involve revisiting the same dungeon, but instead having to explore an entirely new part of the dungeon that would or wouldnt require the aid of a party depending on what upgrade you were looking to make on the gear.

For a final upgrade to the gear, you would have to be in a full pt and fight a powerful quest related Boss at the end of the run. '

I feel that this type of system would allow for maximum content enjoyment, while still catering to the casual crowd, but also rewarding those who work together as a group.

If you like this idea please like this post. If I get enough likes I will make a PDF and a new post with the PDF in it, visually demonstrating to the devs how this system could work.

:cool:

EDIT:

Just to add on to my idea, I wanted sy that these dungeon could be either open world or instanced. Since the gear drops are random, camping wouldn't be an issue for the initial run through of the dungeon. In order to avoid camping issues for the final boss, a player/party would need to have a repeatable quest flagged in order for the end dungeon boss to appear at all.

When the boss appears, he can only be attacked by a player/party with the flagged quest.

To make things even more fair, this repeatable quest could have a set limit of "re-do's" per day or week and as a prerequisite for partys, everyone in the party needs to have the quest flagged in order to have gear drop in their loot list. This allows players to still help fellow LS members or friends even if they don't have the appropriate quest flagged.

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Originally Posted by Lyndis

Also, definitely fix the return to territory AI. It's not just annoying in dungeons, it's annoying everywhere else and nearly broken in some places like wolf camp in Natalan.

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I could definitely be wrong but wasn't that originally implemented to limit the big summoner/mana burns because you can't chain the entire zone?
Now with EXP chains... I'm guessing it would be even worse if MOBs didn't return to their territory
Imagine killing 60 MOBs at 1 time... all at 150% bonus EXP

Mobs returning to their area is not a big deal to me... Its foreign for me, but its a mechanic I got used to. Instanced dungeons, however, just irk me. I don't really get the point. I enjoy the beast men strongholds, good ol' farm up a key and open the chest. You can give more of a mission/repeatable quest to those areas by adding cutscene spawnable nms. The end bosses of those cares could only spawn by certain conditions, from a ???, or inside a battlefield area. Battles should be battlefields, dungeons should be open leading into battlefields. Yeah, I like that. And why don't the chests move!?

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Originally Posted by Rokien

I enjoy the two bosses on Darkhold, it's fun, however I don't enjoy you just run through everything(no real strategy or adventure). As most of you people know, Darkhold has multiple levels to it. You can look down and see other platforms going places, other bridges and what not. So don't you guys think it would be cool to see other adventures fighting through the depths of the dark? Having multiple instanced nms, along with normal nms? Secret areas?

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I am hoping it goes away and never returns along with the ifrit and moogle fight after the (game) world explodes later this summer. Matter of fact, I hope the darkhold is ground zero for where meteor smacks down. Bring on the Tower thing Yoshi has been talking about.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

I could definitely be wrong but wasn't that originally implemented to limit the big summoner/mana burns because you can't chain the entire zone?
Now with EXP chains... I'm guessing it would be even worse if MOBs didn't return to their territory
Imagine killing 60 MOBs at 1 time... all at 150% bonus EXP

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ding! I just levelled ^^

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Originally Posted by Rydin

I could definitely be wrong but wasn't that originally implemented to limit the big summoner/mana burns because you can't chain the entire zone?
Now with EXP chains... I'm guessing it would be even worse if MOBs didn't return to their territory
Imagine killing 60 MOBs at 1 time... all at 150% bonus EXP

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You'd just fight them in territory like most powerlevels does. (It's risky because of repops killing lower level people.) As for summoner/manaburn, no this wasn't in response to that because it continues in Abyssea with Fellcleve/Charged Whisker burns -- mobs have very, very short leashes in this game.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

You'd just fight them in territory like most powerlevels does. (It's risky because of repops killing lower level people.) As for summoner/manaburn, no this wasn't in response to that because it continues in Abyssea with Fellcleve/Charged Whisker burns -- mobs have very, very short leashes in this game.

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Whatever the reason... I don't want to see people training 80 MOBs across Thanalan.

Now in a dungeon, i agree.... especially if the dungeon is instanced... the MOBs should follow you indefinitely

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Originally Posted by Rokien

I enjoy the two bosses on Darkhold, it's fun, however I don't enjoy you just run through everything(no real strategy or adventure). As most of you people know, Darkhold has multiple levels to it. You can look down and see other platforms going places, other bridges and what not. So don't you guys think it would be cool to see other adventures fighting through the depths of the dark? Having multiple instanced nms, along with normal nms? Secret areas?

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yea your right. what would have made DH better would have been to be fighting and have some a$$holes run through and MPK you so that they get the chest. that would def make it better /sarcasm. The SH are open world content so there's that. Im in favor of balanced content. If the dungeon was a massive labyrinth with no map except what you explore then id be in favor of open world.

Would you guys be opposed to a dungeon the size of Western Thanalan (the horizon, Nophica's wells and ferry docks area)?
Or are dungeons better smaller and linear?

Would either of those make it so you'd want MOBs to easily return to their area?

It'd be nice if dungeons didn't have a time limit. I find that that's a big killer of exploration and getting the sense of "adventure". If you want to complete the dungeons you basically have to pull out a guide and follow it, which is kinda boring imo.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

It could be much better.

Remove the mechanic where mobs run back to their spawn points... make it if you run through the mobs never stop chasing you down. (Stop the stupid run through everything tactic)

Make the drops worthwhile.

Fix those 2 things, and the dungeon is not bad.

Make it really good add multiple paths which make you choose which one you do, similar to salvage in XI. (STOP BEING LINEAR)

The idea of more optional nms/bosses and such I also support.

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THAT's almost exactly what toto rak did. You didn't necessarily know what boss you were going to fight since there were 3 different ones.

But they gave that content to lower leveled people. Half the newer XIV players haven't even heard of toto rak lol. It's just another achievement to go on a level 50 character.

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Originally Posted by Isanien

It'd be nice if dungeons didn't have a time limit. I find that that's a big killer of exploration and getting the sense of "adventure". If you want to complete the dungeons you basically have to pull out a guide and follow it, which is kinda boring imo.

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the dungeons in game now are obsly filler content to hold us over. they used existing zones and existing mobs. Hopefully 2.0 will have some nice new dungeons that are in the from the planing stage and not some after thought. The dungeons that are in game now i think were a huge success given when they launched them(the game was really in need of some content). I dont believe the current dungeons reflect he devs creative potential.

im not in favor of the time limits either mainly cause they favor what ever class is OP at the time for speed runs. But even without time limits speed runs are still favorable cause more runs=more loot.

Both dungeons are currently very lackluster in my opinion. The only parts I enjoy are the bossfights.

I'd like to see timers removed, or maybe keep them in just for a bonus item at the end if you do a speedrun successfully. Trash mobs should be more worthwhile, dropping some goodies and being somewhat more challenging. Navigating through Toto-rak really irks me, what with all the gathering of Cells and then just returning back to the start and running around madly in narrow corridors some more.

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Originally Posted by Danavia

Both dungeons are currently very lackluster in my opinion. The only parts I enjoy are the bossfights.

I'd like to see timers removed, or maybe keep them in just for a bonus item at the end if you do a speedrun successfully. Trash mobs should be more worthwhile, dropping some goodies and being somewhat more challenging. Navigating through Toto-rak really irks me, what with all the gathering of Cells and then just returning back to the start and running around madly in narrow corridors some more.

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One thing I didn't like about the dungeons was that it was all the same MOBs we'd been fighting and nothing new