A random private message from a friend and former student today prompted me to share what was said (with their permission, of course), but more importantly, it really reminded me of perhaps the biggest loss of the 4.0 PvP changes, which was the dedicated community, and sense thereof that formed within and around it. To some it may seem like I'm simply beating the old "3.x was better!" horse again, but I felt it was important to share what's been left unsaid, but may perhaps be felt by many.
(The quote has been edited for grammar and punctuation.)
Let it be known that many of their sentiments echo my own, and on my side of things, it was fulfilling to find others with an interest and a willingness to learn, especially at a time where I had stopped raiding, left my longtime FC, and just aimlessly logged in, doing nothing, accomplishing nothing, and expecting nothing. It gave me a renewed enjoyment in the game, a purpose, an identity. When I set out to get back into PvP (back in 3.3), I self-styled myself as "The White Hot Machinist" - a MCH player wearing all white, whom I wanted people to immediately recognize as a skilled ally, or a tenacious threat. Most importantly, it once again gave me a sense of a community I could dedicate myself and happily belong to, which was my very same motivation for raiding back in the days of Coil.Quote:
This is a bit sudden/random but. . . I wanted to say thank you. Thanks for getting [me] into pvp and curious about it. I'm sure I said it before, or something along similiar lines but yeah. I remember hearing people tell me about it and in my mind I was like, "What? Ehhhh this sounds weird. What the hell is this PvP? In FFXIV? Noooo must be lame or something." Something I just never expected myself to get into as much as I did really. I met soooo many people; all sorts of people teaching me different things and people I saw as rivals. Even learned how to play some of the classes in PvE from PvP. It truly was an experience I never expected and defiantly was well worth it. I honestly don't know what I'd be doing with the game if I never came across the dueling circle and got curious. Most likely wouldn't understand any of the classes in PvP or PvE honestly. That's how bad it was for me before that. Just playing blindly without really fully understanding everything. This game is the only game where, for once in my life, I wanted to become really good at it, and prove it to others. Prove it to the people that taught me. Prove to my enemies/rivals and show I finally became a challenge to them after all this time. I never felt that way towards a PvP game before; to want to become that good. I'm not sure why I felt that way. I don't think I'll ever understand, but I did, it happened, and I tried. . . I really did. Just some times it was mentally too much to me. That's why, unfortunately I end stopping mid-way through with the Feast seasons (not to the mention the complete [revamp of] 4.0 pvp with its problems still, sadly, and many many other reasons). But yea. . . either way it was all great and well worth every min of it and I thank you for that.
I don't want to make this a huge personal detour down memory lane, but I wanted to say that THIS is the unspoken truth of what was lost with 4.0 PvP, if perhaps to make a mass appeal or reduce the skill gap to make it more accessible. Thing is, the player quoted above learned all I could teach them within 2 weeks. Hell, within 4 days, duels against them began to become dangerously close wins. The key is that they tried. They wanted to learn and improve, and they did. Quickly. Others saw our flashy battles (MCH vs MCH), and approached with curiosity. Some just watched, others jumped right in. I coached, I encouraged, I helped forge and unify a community on what was one of the smallest NA servers at the time. Nothing ever felt better. Even beyond that was the larger community of long time PvPers whom I had fought beside and against, learned from, and enjoyed a part of the game that only those who gave it a chance discovered was a diamond in the rough.
That sense of community is barely there now, and many simply departed, alienated and upset by the drastic changes. In their place are players that largely don't want to learn, don't NEED to learn, and consider it a random dice roll for a reward, and grab-and-go XP besides. Our once thriving Discords still remain, but sorely lack the vibrance, activity, and competitive community that once was. All this, unseen by the larger population of FFXIV that once pretended we don't exist, and perhaps would be happier if such were true.
Some may consider this to just be conjecture, and more nostalgia, glossing over the bigger issues PvP had then, and perhaps still has now. But it needed to be said, and it keeps needing to be said, if only so that SE themselves understands this and this alone:
With the changes to PvP in 4.0, you gained more players for it, yes, but you lost its community.
Community: The Biggest Loss of 4.0 PvP
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01-10-2018, 11:51 AMThirdChild_ZKICommunity: The Biggest Loss of 4.0 PvP
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01-10-2018, 11:57 AMRisvertasashi
...SE really can't win.
First people complain pvp's on life support... now we're getting complaints that opening it up killed the sense of community. -
01-10-2018, 12:20 PMThirdChild_ZKI
I think you missed the bigger point in my saying that. But look around the PVP section of the forums. The story tells itself.
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01-11-2018, 01:06 AMAriaFairchildI mean...if you count those frontline bots as community, I guess that works too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
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01-11-2018, 01:42 AMPastelMiqote
I'm not sure who was complaining back then about pvp on life support, but if you're talking about before 4.0, I was having a great time. I personally didn't like 4.0 pvp when it came out. Still don't as of right now but I accept it. I see what they were trying to do and understand, but even so still not my cup of tea. Now that doesn't mean i stopped playing. Oh no definitely not. No matter what, I'll always find my way back to playing some pvp here and there. Not as much as before when first starting back in HW's. I don't mind change but when theres no continued improvement and communication with the community (and not just simply saying "yes yes we hear you guys loud and clear") then I think there is a problem.
Yes there were improvements here and there, but its not really the main problems (the ones that have been said many times throughout these forum posts). There's clearly problems that still exist, yet not really talked about or just talked about very little, then brushed off to the side. Then saying something along the lines of "Oh by the way here's a new pvp mode! Heres a new map! etc etc" As an excuse when these other problems that still exist have been there for a while. More than 30min queue wait time back in HW's; yeah I don't mind doing that. It was a lot better then than what it is now, even with the faster queues, there's just no denying it. They keep adding new stuff which is cool but there's still all these other problems.
Some well known pvpers did get turned away from 4.0 pvp, and I don't blame them for it. Considering the fact so many bots took over, exp, garo event, glams, mounts, titles, etc., all the things we know that is the reason for all these problems existing for the most part. So I wont deny saying that it did lose some of its community, namely the people that love and care for it, while also gaining alot of new people. Unfortunately most (not all) of those people don't take it seriously. Do they have to? No, of course not, but there is A LOT of those people that don't care or take it seriously. A lot of them that don't come to just have fun, play the game mode, and just try. A lot that are just simply bots. Too many of them, and that's the problem. Its like a plague slowly taking over, making things worse.
4.X pvp is a double edged sword. -
01-11-2018, 02:16 AMSquintina
As nice as that quote was, the revamp of 4.X and its issues was barely a mention, and was among "many many other reasons".
So I don't think your friend is that torn up over 4.0 pvp. From that quote it sounds like trying to become good at pvp was already getting to be too much strain mentally and even in past seasons they couldn't finish the Feast. This person would have quit pvp regardless of anything 4.0 would or wouldn't have done.
To me it just sounds like you're over-interpreting what was said because you personally want something to justify what you feel as a loss of community and a loss of interest.
When it truth communities in games go through cycles and those cycles would have happened anyway. Some people quit (for whatever reason), some people are stubborn over new changes, whatever. That isn't to say there aren't new people who DO get that feeling from the new pvp, who DO build communities from the new pvp, who DO want to get better. There have, and always will be, people who just don't take it seriously - it only is more noticeable because there are more people trying out pvp.
It's not different than how some FCs go on, other FCs die, new FCs are born. Lifecycles.
I'm enjoying pvp despite that I've never been much of a pvper (and I really suck at it lol), and I see other people who talk about pvp and go do PVP matches together. I learned how to pvp from someone on the NN dueling with me. There's even a big discord chat full of people who ask questions, talk about matches, etc... Community is what you make of it. Everything community-wise you were able to do before you can do in 4.X.
I'm not saying your loss is invalid. If you feel it, then it's valid. But that loss is not universal because that experience would change so drastically from one player to another, nor is it absolute because you can go find new people to teach, to hang out with, to build a new serious pvp community together. -
01-11-2018, 02:27 AMWintersandmanThe whole quote was about how it taught him how to play classes/jobs better even in PvE? How does the 4.0 system even allow that when classes/jobs play completely differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squintina
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01-11-2018, 02:35 AMSquintinaActually that wasn't the whole quote.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
1. thought pvp was weird
2. tried it, liked it
3. met many people
4. people taught them stuff
5. THEN a mention of how it "even" helped them with pve
6. loved the dueling circle (which last I checked is done with people)
7. For once they wanted to be good at a game
8 .Proving it (being good) to other people
9. They tried (being good) but it got too much mentally
10. Couldn't even finish feast anymore
11. a brief mention of 4.0 among "many many other reasons"
So no, the majority of that was about enjoying their own personal development and being with people, which they didn't expect to be as good as it was.
I stand by my original analysis:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squintina
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01-11-2018, 02:36 AMRisvertasashiThere are other ways to push yourself towards excellence, for those that seek it. Even on the old system, pvp and pve were so different the knowledge transfer wasn't that great. Attitudes to push yourself maybe, but you're deluding yourself if you think playing pre-4.0 pvp was good way to practice for pve. And it was more of a side mention than an emphasis anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
The changes mean that pvp isn't gated by 100+ hours of unrelated quest content and you're not juggling 40-odd abilities. Whether or not you like that is your call, but I certainly understand why SE wasn't happy with it before... -
01-11-2018, 02:48 AMThirdChild_ZKIThe "many many other reasons" make up the larger majority of posts in this section of the forums, hence my saying "The story tells itself." And that person still plays PvP, myself as well, albeit we do so knowing just what was lost, how many friends are no longer there, and how much lesser it is than what we had before. Say for example, you beat T7 back when it was new and you LOVED the fight, but then you had to play it as it is now (under the idea of still being at the relevant level/gear for it). Would it still be the same enjoyable fight, or are you aware of just how much less it is than what it once was? This is our issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squintina
You said you learned to PvP from someone dueling with you, and that community is what you make of it, yes? First, what stopped you from learning back in 3.x? I taught the person quoted and many others back in 3.x. Someone taught me. What made you not try then? Second, yes, we can still have a community. . . except we can't when we can't chat and give advice to help people in the Feast. Or when an entire other alliance is filled with bots. Or when the majority of your team just gives up and wants to wait for their precious XP that they were only there for in the first place. Or when many of the veteran players have literally just walked away from PvP, if not the game entirely. Those experiences, that knowledge, and that skill is gone, not only by their absence, but by the changes to PvP overall literally making them impossible. Before 4.0 if you asked me what the MCH burst was, I could easily tell you as well as show you. Now? More than half that burst is literally not capable of being done. You don't even have the skills/abilities to do it.
What remains of our communities, discord or otherwise, still wants to PvP, help others learn, and enjoy what new content we may get. But we can't, and we know we can't. It's like trying to listen to a band after original members leave or die; the sound is just never the same. 4.0 killed most of our original band. I won't say it can't become a new, possibly better sound, but so far, any time this new band tries to play the old songs, they're terrible, and their new songs aren't as deep or fulfilling either. -
01-11-2018, 02:48 AMWintersandmanSo we should do the same to 24 mans and specific trials. Warring Triad, and the rest of the large raids didn't have anything to do with 100+ hours of unrelated quest content. Not every ability is used in PvE. Not a very logical argument. Also PvP was unlocked at level 30 in 2.0. Which is also unlocked at 30 in 4.0 so your gating argument is invalid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
And actually, PvP was transferable to PvE. If you can't see it then you didn't really understand it. -
01-11-2018, 02:50 AMSquintinaI don't see the relevance of this question. I in no way said or implied that 4.X provided to me something 3.X couldn't. I only said that you could still have a community in 4.X.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
The reason I didn't try it in 3.X? My time was limited back then and I played about once a week so I spent all that time on MSQ. Had nothing to do with versions.
When I did have more time to play, and I found out that pvp gave exp, I decided to try it. YES, I am one of those "exp people", but once I saw how much I sucked I asked for advice. I read a bit on what the game modes actually expected of me. I even hooked up my mouse because I play pve on controller and I found it annoying for RW with all its alliances to try to heal with the d-pad. Will I ever be one of those serious pvpers trying to rank top in the Feast? Probably not, but that doesn't stop me from actually trying and having fun while also getting that sweet exp. There are exp people who do try.
I'll agree with you on that one, lack of Feast chat sucks. FL and RW still have it. Last I checked though the reason Feast chat was removed was because people complained that the pvp community was too toxic. So it sounds like your old community also had some big negatives. Maybe the people who used to receive that toxicity might feel a little differently about this change than you do (no I wasn't one of them).Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
While I didn't try pvp in 3.X, and I will openly admit to that, I've always been a voracious forum-er and I definitely remember people complaining about not having enough people in pvp. PVP community has to make up its mind. It either wants people who are serious or more people. SE will never find a way to bring more serious pvp-ers, that's just not how the general population is. That being said the serious players can still have a community. They can make LS, make groups, and try to educate the newer people who actually might give pvp a chance on how to become better. Yes a lot of people go for exp, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't try if someone actually attempted to make them better (and not just telling them that they suck and need to git gud).Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
I've seen some serious people (in 4.X) try their best to lead other people to victory. They engage, explain things during the 1 min prep, and provide guidance along the way. Some people don't listen, that's just how it goes, but you might be surprised at the amount of casual people who will listen and try (and fail because they're still quite new to pvp, but at least they tried) -
01-11-2018, 02:54 AMRisvertasashiGood luck finding anyone queuing for the level 30 arena back then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
And, no. Aside from increasingly numerous changes between pvp and pve versions of skills (likely one reason they decided to just separate them like now), the optimization spaces were entirely different. Coordinating burst and CC on high value, low hp targets, exploiting positioning errors, etc is a bit different from fighting a boss with orders of magnitude more hp than you but that operates on a set script, hm?
If you can't see that I don't think you understand much of XIV combat as a whole... Not that it's that big of a deal, really, if all you care about if pvp or such, well, stick with what you like. -
01-11-2018, 02:56 AMWintersandmanHow does this alone not apply to both? Single target burst is single target burst. Whether it is to push a phase, burn an add down, or burn down a PvP target. Very few jobs did the rotation change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
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01-11-2018, 03:03 AMRisvertasashiThe principle difference is that in PvE, burst is generally less important than sustain unless there's a specific add or DPS check mechanic that needs to be cleared. 'Burst' is usually a lighter emphasis to align with things like a trick attack window, and it's towards optimizing your DPS over the whole fight rather than sacrificing everything just for that small window.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
In PvP, you're trying to kill someone before they or their teammates can react. Or to overcome their reaction. CC is an important combo here as it reduces the change of a successful mitigation/heal/escape. Choosing targets on the fly is also an important aspect here -- perhaps a healer goes too far forward or their teammates have left them open, for example. Or if the healer is busy, switch to an unexpected target and kill it before they can react.
Sustained DPS/pressure has its place but the emphasis is shifted far away. No one cares how you parse in PvP. Picking your target, and timing it so you secure those kills is everything. -
01-11-2018, 03:08 AMThirdChild_ZKII'd like to give this my full attention in a separate post from the previous one. You say pre-4.0 PvP wasn't good practice for PvE, and I'll agree, they're different enough, but! Before 4.0, you were using the same kit from max level in both. And with perhaps 2 notable exceptions between 2 very different jobs, everything worked just the same. Some things actually held more relevance and use in PvP. And now? I can safely say for as "confusing" as MCH may seem to people, anyone leveling is NOT going to learn how to properly play a PvE MCH from PvP. Not when Hot Shot values are different, the majority of what comprises the kit from 30-60 pretty much isn't there, and when the shot combo is linear in PvP where in PvE it's not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
Attitude to push yourself IS good - look at all the threads in General Discussion lamenting players that perform poorly, and either don't know or don't care. Beyond that, I've said it many times, if anyone was bad at PvP then, hell, if they're bad now, that's all on them for failure to learn. SE literally revamped everything to make it easier, and yet you still get people that just do it wrong. Except now, there's far less punishment in doing it wrong. You know, like when one-shot mechanics don't one-shot anymore. . . then when the same mechanic with a new coat of paint turns up later AS a one shot, people can't handle it. . . Remember T6's Blighted Bouquet? How about when they called it Acceleration Bomb in Weeping City? The old community made efforts to help people learn. PvPaissa exists. Various discords exist. The Wolf Pup's Den exists. Hell, I've written 2 Shatter guides on this forum itself, sharing what I know and learned through experience. . . Experience that many others were perhaps too busy avoiding PvP and buying into the misconceptions of it to achieve as well. And even in sharing that knowledge/experience, even where it's relevant to 4.0 - say, MCH basics as the job plays in PvP now - we still have pre-loading MCHs before matches.
I don't think opening PvP up to people leveling was bad, and I've said that many places here. I'm not happy that it's attracted players that are only in it to level and have no will to learn or improve, and I'm sure if say, Savage raiding were opened up to the same, many Savage raiders would feel the same. I understand what SE was TRYING to do. But it's how they did it and what it cost to make it happen that we have issue with. If I had a solid answer for it, I'd be submitting a resume to SE today, but I don't. All I can do is speak up, loudly, AS one of the dedicated players from before. Not unlike all the disappointed BRDs of 3.x. Does that help clarify things? -
01-11-2018, 03:15 AMWintersandmanThe principal similarity is that in PvE you generally align Coordinated Burst (Opener) just as you would do a Coordinated Burst on a PvP target. Yes you may switch targets on the fly but more often than not you are going to feint and then do the same Opener on another target. You are going to align your buffs just as you would in PvE. You are also going to align your OGCDs just as you would in PvE. As a healer in PvP you are going to learn to be quicker on your toes since PvE is scripted it is easier. Mana management is just as important in PvP as it is in PvE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
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01-11-2018, 03:30 AMKisagami
While I understand you are mourning the loss of something rare and sweet when it comes to PVP, you need to realize that the sense of community and comradery you had had was rare. Most people have bad experiences with PVP communities. I also know nostalgia is a big thing to fall into, but changes come for reasons you were fortunate enough not to see. I envy you. I wish I had run into a community like this, but in ever game I played, PVP was “get gud” or some guy running up behind me while I was doing something PVE related.
I never was really interested in PVP on other games until I started playing Tera’s Corsairs Stronghold. It had accessability for both people who wanted to kill others and those who just wanted to get in and kill the crystal. You were a team, but you had many avenues for people to chose. People could chose to go kill people, move straight in for the crystal sneaking past the carnage, or you could grab a bomb or tank, run into the middle of the players, and suicide it - taking all of those people with you. It gave accessibility to a lot of different communities; those who liked team based combat, those who liked to go off on their own, and those who wanted to go after more PVE-related objectives. And you couldn’t accidentally end up in there. I’d never had that much fun in my life. Sadly, Tera is aging now, plagued by lack of players, old age, and glitches in the system.
Many of the PVP modes in this game are simpler versions of these, but they make me nostaglic for my old times doing those activities. I understand how powerful nostalgia can be.
As for the 4.0 changes, I believe they were trying to make it more accessible for more people outside of the current community because it was content unused by the greater population. Only through simplifying it, increasing new tempting new rewards, and making it easier for our PS4 community (how do they use that many skills on a controller... I know some buy keyboards and a mouse, but the ones who play on controller in PVE have my eternal respect), that really made the population boom. When you increase the population, you have greater chances of running into the bad actors such as bots, people who don’t take it seriously, etc.
You also gonna understand the strain SE developers were under balancing the skills for our multitude of classes. Making it simpler to balance it, gave them time to introduce new PVP modes. It gave them more time to develop new instead of preserving a all too complicated system with problems they were spending too much time overcoming.
And as for the Feast, SE doesn’t make that type of change unless it is 100% necessary. I imagine chat in Feast was more often than not vulgar, harassing, or problematic. You were fortunate enough not to run into that. But they know from the reports. You do not. -
01-11-2018, 03:30 AMThirdChild_ZKIThen, with no disrespect to your personal circumstances, you don't know what you missed. I wish you could've experienced it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squintina
It is a popular misconception that chat was so largely toxic. Sure, there were bad apples, and I've never tried to imply otherwise, but I personally will stand as example for those "old" players that simply wanted to have fun and win more than I wanted to tear anyone down or insult them. How did we build a community if we were too busy insulting and scaring people away? How toxic was I to be receiving heartfelt thanks from others like above for simply helping them open their minds, or calmly giving advice after a loss? SE painted with very broad strokes on the chat ban, and "The New Chat Restriction in the Feast" is the year-long record of what they said vs what we experienced. I highly encourage anyone to read it before buying into the "people were too toxic" falsehood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squintina
To answer the bolded part first, SE actually pulled that off in 3.5. Chat ban aside, they gave the community something we wanted for 3 years, and it was an overnight improvement. Couple that with an update to rewards/reward structure right along side an event that was based on PvP, and it was like they suddenly figured out what they should've been doing all along. Only it came VERY late, and for all that wanted in, lack of knowing/understanding and failure/refusal to learn is what dampened the experience for many.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squintina
You say the serious players can still have a community, and yes, we can. But, NOW we have to deal with massive botting, people that don't know and don't care to know so long as they get their reward for trying, and barely trying at that. Now we have less knowledge and experience to go around and help others, and for what remains, it's often met with indifference or defiance. Try to enjoy a Shatter match when you're telling your team not to drop off cliffs to rush to the ice with enemies below (while you're taking out 3 people doing just that - the reason WHY you're saying not to), and having that met with defiant refusal of your "suggestion", and the inevitable wipe of your team. Or try explaining a better, PROVEN strategy in Rival Wings other than "Everyone go mid", and having someone on a chronic losing streak tell you - on a winning one - how wrong you are.
I'm all too aware of how willing even random players are to listen to someone who'll step up and lead. I've been that guy many times, and I continue to be. For that reason, I still contend that PvP didn't need to be simplified or made more "accessible". Players needed to step up more, and learn where they didn't know or understand. It was hardly unplayable then, and that was not the reason so many didn't play it. It was very much bad word of mouth, poor-but-widely-accepted misconception (not unlike "ice > kills/everyone go mid"), and an outright refusal to or avoidance to try it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squintina
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01-11-2018, 03:39 AMRisvertasashiThis is a complaint in every pvp game I've ever seen, at least ones with teams. There will always be those that are bad or uncaring (or of such a different mindset that they're perceived as such).Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
It doesn't necessarily mean that measures to get more players involved are bad. To one person, cutting down the 4 hotbars of abilities might be dumbing it down. To another, cutting down on bloat. But if it gets more people playing, or at least trying it out to see if they like it... Well, it's an understandable approach.
There's one particular aspect of it that, TBH, I really, really hate. I won't derail here with a rant. But in the end, I can understand why SE did it. If it keeps the content alive, then... that's that.
I think we just have to agree to disagree here. To me the similarities are, at best, the words only -- the actual actions and optimizations are vastly different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
(Well, I agree about post length edits being annoying) -
01-11-2018, 03:41 AMThirdChild_ZKIFor the record, everything I've done, including my video work, has been done on controller. I have never been, in any way, impaired or restricted as a PS4 player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kisagami
As far as issues with button bloat, PvE or PvP, Stormblood's overall skill pruning solved that. I have, in many threads, shown how flawed the "too many buttons" argument was, and using a job widely considered "complicated" by the community back then.
And it needs to be said: If SE's reports were anything valid, or a good data sampling, we wouldn't have had 6 seasons of wintraders freely (and sometimes obviously) cheating in the Feast til now. There's also the fact that there are better alternatives, many recommended by the community itself, if only to avoid issues that came as a result of a blanket fix to a problem that was not nearly as widespread as people believe. Many simply choose to default to taking SE's word over the actual players, but that, again, is why I so vehemently encourage others to see and read it all for themselves. -
01-11-2018, 03:43 AMWintersandmanThe controller set up is a lot easier honestly than a KM combo I find personally for combat. You can get up to 48 buttons without having to switch between crossbars as they allowed for shortcuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kisagami
Optimizations yes I won't dispute that but principals are sometimes harder to teach than optimization. Unless you are in a Free Company/Linkshell party DF and PF people are reluctant to teach. There are exceptions but they are few and far between.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
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01-11-2018, 03:48 AMRisvertasashiThere's one more benefit that I think is far bigger to the dev team than bloat.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
PvP and PvE balance are now entirely separate. Need to buff/nerf an ability in pvp? They can do that, no worries about upsetting the raid community or something. And vice versa. No need to make long tooltips even longer by explaining how it differs in pvp. No need to have some abilities flat out disabled in pvp, but still there on your hotbar... -
01-11-2018, 03:58 AMThirdChild_ZKIThey say that, but. . . The reason there was a 4.06aQuote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
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01-11-2018, 04:00 AMRisvertasashiTiming of changes has nothing to do with it. Criticize SE for that if you like. But it's unrelated to the points I just made.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
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01-11-2018, 04:07 AMThirdChild_ZKI
The point of that was the fact that they claimed they didn't get enough feedback or data for those changes from the preseason because players were too busy with Omega Savage, and that just wasn't true. You may have to dig a bit, but there were literal "Feedback: Job" threads. And of course, rather than communicate this in a timely manner and perhaps extend the preseason, they just shotgunned everyone into Season 5. . . Imagine if they did that with the raids?
Imagine if they did that with Stormblood in general? -
01-11-2018, 04:20 AMRisvertasashi
..That still doesn't change the basic point, and it's only tangentially related.
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01-11-2018, 06:03 AMTheodric
I'd personally love to get to know more people in this game who frequently do PvP on Chaos. As it stands, though, it feels rather insular and hard to get involved with. There's a few PvP Discords to be found though they're typically aimed at Aether first and foremost with Chaos as an afterthought at best.
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01-11-2018, 07:26 AMThirdChild_ZKIDoesn't change the point, but if the split was to alleviate any issues with balancig between PvP and PvE, what was the real reason the changes were so delayed, and even after admitting they didn't get what they needed after 3 or 4 months and blaming it on PvE, why start the season anyways?Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
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01-11-2018, 07:51 AMWintersandmanHow I met PvP folks was hanging out in Wolves Den. I went there to duel to get better at my job before I went into the queue. Sometimes it will be dead and other times it will be a cluster. I know of several Discords aimed at Primal but as you have said I have yet to see one for Chaos DC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
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01-11-2018, 09:32 AMSquintinaTime to start one ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
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01-11-2018, 11:04 AMoLLiCSCome join us on Wolf Pups Den Discord :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric