After Rival Wings, do you want more modes or new maps for existing modes?

As the title says. Do you want SE to work on more modes/categories like Rival Wings, Frontline or would you rather have more maps for the modes/categories we already have?

I think the modes we have right now (Rival Wings included) are more than enough. I would rather have them work on new maps for The Feast and Frontline. Only Frontline if they can't do both at the same time.

Add one new map for each type - Secure, Seize, Shatter along with a rotation system and PvP would be in a pretty good spot.

We'll see after Rival Wings, especially if they're willing to actually give us some info on how long it took to make relative to yet another Frontlines map.

My instinct says more modes/categories, but Rival Wings may yet fall flat.

They need to solve existent problems in current modes first

i would be fine with them adding a new map first, optimize current game types then release more of them

I don't get why they removed Slaughter mode :|

No. PvP should always be randomized maps -AND- modes. Really only need 2 options, feast and frontline. Otherwise there's no balance. Some jobs will be better at some modes but not others, random being the equalizer. I do wish they start doing this with Rival Wings, get rid the individual modes and randomize.

I want to conquer castles, use big catapults to attack other castles, form a big group or small group and attack those castles. Yoshida said that he enjoyed the RvRvR from Dark Age of Camelot, yet he did not add the fun PvP from that game.

Capture the Flag is all I want.

But more maps for existing modes would be nice as well that are randomized.

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Originally Posted by Arthur_Gwen

They need to solve existent problems in current modes first

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Go on.

Off the top of my head, I can think of a rank decay system for The Feast and a way to bring variety to Frontline, be it random map selection or a rotation system.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Capture the Flag is all I want.

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Well, we already have Secure so I assume you mean a new map for that.

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Originally Posted by Mirch

I don't get why they removed Slaughter mode :|

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I think it would make sense for them to bring back Slaughter if they do it with along with a system that randomizes map selection. Or a rotation system. Whenever Borderland Ruins is active in the rotation, it's a 50/50 chance between Secure and Slaughter.

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Originally Posted by Mirch

I don't get why they removed Slaughter mode :|

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Probably because they knew it would be only active mode, people nowadays just prefer mindless killing instead doing more tactical pvp. Anyway i hope they stop adding new modes after we get CTF and instead focus on making new maps for existing modes.

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Originally Posted by Mirch

I don't get why they removed Slaughter mode :|

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Bitterly, I'd like to point out that they removed it without any forewarning or explanation besides.

I'd rather see more maps. The pvp community is already really small, we already don't have enough people to run a secure and shatter at the same time. One more game mode would divide us further.

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Originally Posted by OskarXCI

Well, we already have Secure so I assume you mean a new map for that.

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Secure is not Capture the Flag. It is a King of the Hill style mode. You have 3 hills with optional resources from the nodes/kills.

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Originally Posted by Gravton

I'd rather see more maps. The pvp community is already really small, we already don't have enough people to run a secure and shatter at the same time. One more game mode would divide us further.

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72 man shatter is a waste of space. With one 72 man shatter you can have a 24 man Seize, Secure, and Shatter going.

In an attempt to try to be a bit more open minded. What if perhaps Shatter were reclassified into a "casual" or "training" Frontlines mode? I mean, effectively, it IS a mix of Secure and Seize, and a large reason players got into it was because of the heavy focus on objectives. Sure, we veteran players understand the ice alone doesn't win a game, but for a lot of the new blood without any input from vets or guides readily available from SE, ice = points is simple enough to understand.

With that in mind, why not reclassify Shatter as the Frontlines (Training) mode, and offer up Secure and Seize as more advanced modes? It's a long shot, and would sadly split the queues again, but it's worth a thought.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

With that in mind, why not reclassify Shatter as the Frontlines (Training) mode, and offer up Secure and Seize as more advanced modes? It's a long shot, and would sadly split the queues again, but it's worth a thought.

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I would prefer if they added incentives to Secure and Seize. Why queue for either when you get 3 mounts just from doing shatter. Eliminate 72 man and provide incentives for the other modes. And add high/fever to Secure.

Another thing there adding that I will never do. Wish they added new event's for Golden Saucer or side quests than another pvp battle field.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Another thing there adding that I will never do. Wish they added new event's for Golden Saucer or side quests than another pvp battle field.

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I guess I wish they delete Au Ra because I won't ever be one. ^-^

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

72 man shatter is a waste of space. With one 72 man shatter you can have a 24 man Seize, Secure, and Shatter going.

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Getting rid of 72 man Shatter is more likely to lead to 3 games of 24 man Shatter than one game of each mode.

Giving more reasons to queue for Roulette, Seize and Secure over directly queuing for Shatter is the actual solution needed.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

With that in mind, why not reclassify Shatter as the Frontlines (Training) mode, and offer up Secure and Seize as more advanced modes? It's a long shot, and would sadly split the queues again, but it's worth a thought.

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Not really going to change anything. People queue for Shatter due to it being the newest/most rewarding (Mount+Title vs 2 Titles or a Glamour set and title) match type not because it is the easiest.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Not really going to change anything. People queue for Shatter due to it being the newest/most rewarding (Mount+Title vs 2 Titles or a Glamour set and title) match type not because it is the easiest.

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Yes, but:

"People only queue for Shatter because people only queue for Shatter." With a community effort, the same could be said for any mode.
People are tired of Shatter, even some of the new players.
The only mount that can't be gotten from the other modes is the white ADS
If Frontlines continues to just be Shatter only, there's the possibility that Rival Wings could "kill" it off.
Seal Rock (Seize) IS the better mode, even if it's not the newest.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Getting rid of 72 man Shatter is more likely to lead to 3 games of 24 man Shatter than one game of each mode.

Not really going to change anything. People queue for Shatter due to it being the newest/most rewarding (Mount+Title vs 2 Titles or a Glamour set and title) match type not because it is the easiest.

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I disagree with both of these points. Queue'ing late at night or in the morning I get more Seize and Secure than I do shatter. The main reason shatter pops is it is easy to bot.

You can queue for any of the 3 frontlines and get 4 mounts (White ADS excluded), titles and glamour. There is only one title associate to Shatter and only one Mount (white ADS). I don't see many people going for the Shatter title, if anything they want Slaughterhouse or Hand of Mercy which is much more obtainable in Seize.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Yes, but:

"People only queue for Shatter because people only queue for Shatter." With a community effort, the same could be said for any mode.
People are tired of Shatter, even some of the new players.

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People only queue for Shatter because their is no "real" reason (while fun is a good reason it isn't going to get 24 or 72 players to queue for one mode when another has a prize) for casual players to queue for the other two modes and changing how Shatter is categorized won't change that.

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The only mount that can't be gotten from the other modes is the white ADS

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Which is why it is more rewarding. Mounts beat Glamour gear which beat Titles for getting casual players to queue for content.

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If Frontlines continues to just be Shatter only, there's the possibility that Rival Wings could "kill" it off.

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Which doesn't mean I want to see Frontlines die or that I don't want new reasons to queue for Secure and/or Seize.

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Seal Rock (Seize) IS the better mode, even if it's not the newest.

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72-man Seal Rock (Seize) isn't really any better than 72-man Field of Glory (Shatter). Both of them tend to result in 3 ~24 person zergs running around after randomly activating objectives.

Sealed Rock's randomness does a really good job hiding the modes faults.

Borderlands Ruins(Secure) was pretty much the only one of the modes that really functioned as a 24v24v24 competition due to the objectives forcing a 3 party split.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I disagree with both of these points. Queue'ing late at night or in the morning I get more Seize and Secure than I do shatter.

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Those times are more likely to have people queuing Roulette than any specific mode.

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The main reason shatter pops is it is easy to bot.

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Its not really easier to bot than the other two modes (which had bots in them even before Shatter was added) that make them bot Shatter, it was the addition of PvE XP that made it very lucrative to bot Frontlines that made Frontlines in 4.0 and 4.1 so full of them. If more people were playing another mode instead of Shatter the bots would be there.

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You can queue for any of the 3 frontlines and get 4 mounts (White ADS excluded), titles and glamour. There is only one title associate to Shatter and only one Mount (white ADS). I don't see many people going for the Shatter title, if anything they want Slaughterhouse or Hand of Mercy which is much more obtainable in Seize.

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You need to check the rewards again. These are the "reasons" to chose each mode.

The benefits you get from Secure that you can't get from other modes are:

• Drone Sniper title (100 Drone kills)
• Heliodrome Hero title (20 Probe kills, only 1 spawns in each 72 person match)

The benefits you get from Seize that you can't get from other modes are:

• Field Commander's 5 piece glamour gear set (100 Seal Rock victories)
• Keeper of Knowledge title (Personally occupy 300 tomeliths)

The benefits you get from Shatter that you can't get from other modes are:

• White ADS (100 Field of Glory Victories)
• Knight of Glory title (300 Field of Glory Victories)

Cutting out the titles make Secure non-rewarding and leave the competition between Seize's glamour set and Shatter's mount. The mount is going to win more players than the glamour set.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Yes, but:

"People only queue for Shatter because people only queue for Shatter." With a community effort, the same could be said for any mode.

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Funny how that works.

I for one would like to be able to play Feast again.

Sitting at 408 minutes into queue, at the moment.

Will probably try out Secure tomorrow while writing papers. By which I may mean try out waiting for it and nothing more. Hopefully not. Allegedly they do at least still exist.
They both say over 30 minutes, though, and these are peak hours here....

I had a secure match earlier tonight. A nice little random surprise from the roulette. I've also coordinated 2 Seal Rock weekends in the past. If people actively only queued for one mode over another, and told their friends to or formed parties to do so and they followed through, it'd happen.

The Feast? End of the season. No rank decay. No one's going to risk their rating, and with the custom match system now, the Aether community is pretty well set to offer themselves the experience SE's been denying them since 3.5: high level, coordinated team play. WITH. CHAT.

I too would love to enjoy unranked 4v4, but as no one's queueing, no one's queueing. Maybe that's a clear sign SE was a bit late to deliver something that really should've been there from day one, or perhaps custom matches - and all the freedom they offer from both blanket restrictions and the negative aspects people would have you believe are standard to the Feast/PvP in general - are just better than the no-fun-allowed, solo queue-only crap shoot they've turned Ranked and Unranked Feast into?

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

People only queue for Shatter because their is no "real" reason (while fun is a good reason it isn't going to get 24 or 72 players to queue for one mode when another has a prize) for casual players to queue for the other two modes and changing how Shatter is categorized won't change that. . . Which is why it is more rewarding. Mounts beat Glamour gear which beat Titles for getting casual players to queue for content. . . 72-man Seal Rock (Seize) isn't really any better than 72-man Field of Glory (Shatter). Both of them tend to result in 3 ~24 person zergs running around after randomly activating objectives. . . Sealed Rock's randomness does a really good job hiding the modes faults.

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A few things I wanted to address all over this post:

1. Why must it all appeal to casual players? Sure, it is important, but you make it sound like if casuals won't like it, it's not worth doing. Casuals generally don't like or do Extreme trials, so no point to queue for those, right? Ultimate Coil exists. . .

2. Shatter, as I said before plays like a mix of Secure and Seize, and a very poor one. The biggest problem? Shatter practically rewards passive play where the other two do not. Drones shoot back, Seal Rock nodes must be successfully interacted with, THEN defended. Ice? Just hit it. People will ignore someone at 10% HP for that damn ice.

I had a match earlier tonight where someone literally told the team to go to the ice at a time where it meant turning our backs to the attacking team and putting ourselves in a pincer with the other team that was already there. Then AGAIN at the end of the match when we'd literally pushed one team out of first place, and were in a prime position to reduce the other teams points (they were 70 points from a win; large ice wouldn't break fast enough to secure a win), someone called for the ice and that did it.

3. The only randomness of Seize is the rank of the node. The locations are fixed, as are ice locations in Shatter. But the activations of the ice are just as random. Sometimes a team gets 2 near their base from the start. Sometimes all the small ones activate at the start. Seize is better, again in that you don't know which will activate, nor what rank it'll be. No bases to afk, excuse me, "guard" on, and camping a node before it spawns is all but impossible because what if it's a B rank, and the one you didn't go to is an S? Maybe an A pops up closest to you at the start? Maybe an A and an S pop up near the end, and you can win by going for the A and letting the other 2 teams fight over the S because you have the lead? Most importantly, it doesn't award passive play. If you're not actively trying to capture a node or reduce enemy points, there are no base ticks to win off of. There's no objective to go and tunnel on and get points without ever attacking or being attacked by another player. Capturing is only half of scoring. Defending your node is where the mode shines over Shatter.

Many people still don't know that if you wipe out a team at a large ice, then let it reset, you can take full points from it, even if it was at 1%. And a full 300 from large ice is quite significant. Works on small ice too. Doesn't work in Seize. You want it, you fight for it, or fight to keep it. That's not to say Seize didn't have its faults, but ask anyone who actively played both before 4.0, and the larger majority much prefer Seize over Shatter.

I queued purely Seize and Secure last week, only queued roulette for daily. Total 18 matches, so that's possible 11 seize/week (for some reason secure doesn't count). Most of them either weekends or right after weekly reset. Queue individually best way you get it, the roulette is pretty much broken defaulting to Shatter.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Secure is not Capture the Flag. It is a King of the Hill style mode. You have 3 hills with optional resources from the nodes/kills.

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I don't know my game types apparently. If Secure is King of the Hill, then what is Seize?

King of the hill - random spawn locations at random times that a team has to take and defend until the location changes
Domination - fixed locations that a team takes and defends
Capture the flag - item at each teams base that must be stolen by the enemy team and carried to their base.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

The benefits you get from Secure that you can't get from other modes are:

• Drone Sniper title (100 Drone kills)
• Heliodrome Hero title (20 Probe kills, only 1 spawns in each 72 person match)

The benefits you get from Seize that you can't get from other modes are:

• Field Commander's 5 piece glamour gear set (100 Seal Rock victories)
• Keeper of Knowledge title (Personally occupy 300 tomeliths)

The benefits you get from Shatter that you can't get from other modes are:

• White ADS (100 Field of Glory Victories)
• Knight of Glory title (300 Field of Glory Victories)

Cutting out the titles make Secure non-rewarding and leave the competition between Seize's glamour set and Shatter's mount. The mount is going to win more players than the glamour set.

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You forget Black ADS from any mode, and FC mount from any mode, and Garo Mounts from any mode. Slaughterhouse and Hand of Mercy from any mode. So check your achievements again.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Those times are more likely to have people queuing Roulette than any specific mode.

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Again I disagree. The people queue'ing at these times aren't doing roulette they are typically religious PVP'ers. They are the ones forcing the pop. I play enough PvP I know who the regulars are.

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Originally Posted by OskarXCI

I don't know my game types apparently. If Secure is King of the Hill, then what is Seize?

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Seize is another King of the Hill with random spawn points. Or per Gravton's definition it would be Domination.

SE's default mode is to copy what works, so I'd bet the next mode would be survival, something like Playerunknown's Battlegrounds.

And make players have to actually fight each other? :O

Oh. Right. We called it Slaughter before. And they unceremoniously deleted it.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

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I just have to say I wish we were on the same data center. I would love to PvP with you.

Thank you, it means a lot to hear that! And likewise! :D

What I want:

New modes:

Rival Wings
Capture the Flag. Map: Ala Mhigo (Lore: To raise combat spirit and have tactical training in case Garlemald strikes back)

Frontlines
Bring back Slaughter

New Maps
Dark Misty Forest/Swamp area complete with puddles that heavy you. (FL Seize Map)
West Shroud (FL Shatter Map) We have already seen artwork with crystals sticking out of there. Would work perfect for Shatter.
Azim Steppe (FL Seize Map)
The Hand of Rhalgr (Duel Area)
Ishgard Cathedral (Feast Map) 2 stories on this map, you can take the fight to the roof where the Wolves Heart spawns.
Ul'Dah Coliseum (Feast Map) Plain Map, No Walls.
Azys Lla Combat Facility (Feast Map) Allagan Walls rising up from the floor at certain times, taking advantage of that to LoS people.
Kugane Sewers (Feast Map) Complete with sewer water spewing that you can LoS with, Rakuza cheering in the background.
The Lochs Saltmines (Feast Map) Gotta watch out for mine carts that pass by.
Ruby Sea Island (Feast Map) Respawn point in a raft close to it. Hide behind Palm Trees and Bushes. Water Oasis in middle.

I like dynamic stuff happening on the maps, but it would be fine without it too.

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Originally Posted by Shirolumi

What I want:

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Yes, only 2 maps for Feast is not enough! So I agree with all of this.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Another thing there adding that I will never do. Wish they added new event's for Golden Saucer or side quests than another pvp battle field.

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Golden...

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Originally Posted by Shirolumi

New Maps
The Hand of Rhalgr (Duel Area)

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Mode: Dueling
Map: Ragnarok Central Core

Why fight on the hands of rhalgr when you can fight on the hand of bahamut

Mordion Gaol dueling arena

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Originally Posted by Mirch

Mode: Dueling
Map: Ragnarok Central Core

Why fight on the hands of rhalgr when you can fight on the hand of bahamut

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This is great!

Why not both?

I can't stress enough that SE's missing an opportunity on a grand scale to create dueling areas in various places between ARR, Heavensward, and Stormblood maps. Not just to appease PvPers, the RP and content creating communities could really enjoy this too! Sunset duel on the Highbridge? Intensive training at the Coral Banquet? With the way the dueling system currently works, it wouldn't involve anyone but the dueling parties, and doesn't impact any PvE content at all. Come on SE!

If they add dueling outside pvp areas..lets say for example: to be able to duel inside an istanced duty the party must first clear such duty and there would be a longer countdown or some way to enable pvp mode

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Borderlands Ruins(Secure) was pretty much the only one of the modes that really functioned as a 24v24v24 competition due to the objectives forcing a 3 party split.

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72-man Secure is probably the best mode because of the 3 party split as you said (They only need to add Battle High/Fever for this). At the same time, 24-man Secure is more or less the worst mode. It's such a slog since not much is happening compared to 24-man Seize and Shatter.

I for one think that there are too many cooks when it comes to stand-alone modes as it is. We are seeing the most recent being used frequently to the point of neglect of all other modes.

And this is an overall problem.

I'd like them tie desirable rewards to an new roulette, randomized modes per instance like other quick-play PvP games. In this fashion, we could possible bring back Slaughter as a "quickplay only" option that could come up as a chance rather than a certainty (That is, if we can get SE to support that kind of play). And all Frontline modes will begin to see action again due to this.

As far as Dueling. There's no need to instance that. Just make dueling squares inside a zone similar to the theme (Though, sorry, I already know Bahamut's hand would be shut down due to lore reasons. What we really need is one of those Alagan Holographic Rooms like in Tier 9 as an actual in-lore accessible location. I mean we're seeing a lot of that level of technology showing up lately. That would solve lore problems real quick.) But yes, more dueling circles and Triple Triad playable locations would be good.

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Originally Posted by Shirolumi

Azim Steppe (FL Seize Map)

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Anyone remember what that one brawlers' run to win the Dawn Throne was called, again?

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Originally Posted by Mirch

It was nadaam iirc

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Thank you, gentleman scholar.

I'd actually kind of like to see that turned into a mix of a Flag Carrying and Hardpoint game mode.

...Though it would probably soon end up overly or just-underly hectic and then be hated...

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Originally Posted by Shirolumi

I like dynamic stuff happening on the maps, but it would be fine without it too.

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I, too, wouldn't say I like dynamic maps as a rule, but more often than not, the possibilities are delectable.