Sam and Mnk need more than Diversion

I've been in Savage Deltascape pugging 1-4 this week with BiS Sam and every run i've ended up tanking for a good portion of the fight, usually dying to a tank buster. Using this skill on CD has not been enough to make a major impact on personal enmity control. I believe this skill is not enough enmity mitigation for the highly damaging classes.

I suggest to make Diversion more dynamic, by cutting enmity in half as well as reducing enmity generation for 15s, as well as shortening the recast timer to 90, or even 60 seconds.

Ninja and Dragoon already have enmity reduction skills in their toolkit, so i feel these changes to Diversion would help the enmity problem affecting Sam and Mnk.

I think it's also a tanking problem in your case and the tank didn't generate enough hate.

However, what's true is that monk and samurai are the only dps to have 1 way to reduce hate.
Caster have both diversion and lucid dreaming.
Bard/Mch have MP/TP regen, with the secondary effect to reduce hate.
And like you said, Ninja and drg have their own.

It's always great to have another option to reduce hate when diversion is not ready, especially if you're generating too much or if the main tank dies and the other has to build hate quickly.

As a MNK Tank, I wholeheartedly agree.
I keep Diversion on CD at all times during a fight but even with Tanks Provoke/Shirking I have been on the receiving end of more than a few Tank busters and it is NOT fun.

would it be better to adjust diversion to act more like Refresh and Tactician? halving hate on Bard is extremely effective and they crit all day

Changing diversion to just halve enmity still leaves Monk and Samurai with half as much aggro control as every other job. Tacking an aggro cut on Invigorate would be a reasonable addition.

I support this idea. When AST needed more than Luminiferous Aether by Thordan launch devs simply gave them a passive enmity reduction on Sects. Something simmilar could be made to MNK and specially SAM. DRG and NIN both have an ability besides Diversion to reduce enmity. Such a simple change would already make PF more friendly towards these two unliked jobs.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

I think it's also a tanking problem in your case and the tank didn't generate enough hate.

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There's a bit of truth to this. If your ripping hate tanks are obviously in dps stance too much of the time. And should switch to build up a bigger lead.

Which is also kind of ironic because tanks won't swap stance because it's a dps loss. But when people say just scrap stances tanks are like nope. Stance dancing is fun... but they never actually switch stance when they need to anyway and thus they lose hate..

Diversion isn't really the problem

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Originally Posted by Dzian

There's a bit of truth to this. If your ripping hate tanks are obviously in dps stance too much of the time. And should switch to build up a bigger lead.

Which is also kind of ironic because tanks won't swap stance because it's a dps loss. But when people say just scrap stances tanks are like nope. Stance dancing is fun... but they never actually switch stance when they need to anyway and thus they lose hate..

Diversion isn't really the problem

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I would still say that Monk and Samurai still do have a problem because the lack of a secondary Aggro management skill is unique to them (among DPS anyway, White Mage also needs a way of limiting threat like Astro's passive cut on its stances or Scholar splitting its healing with its pet).

Thanks for the input, I posted this on several other sites, and also the feedback page in hopes of someone important seeing this and making some changes by the next patch. For some reason this issue seems to have been overlooked in the case of Sam&Mnk, but now that more people are getting higher gear the enmity problem is becoming more apparent.

They've overlooked a lot of problems with SAM and MNK, and this ranks pretty low on that list. Unfortunately, since people are being so loud about it, paired with how easy a fix it would be, they could easily get the wrong idea that this is the biggest and most important complaint of SAM/MNK's. Pretty worrying to be honest, since it pushes more urgent changes further back. Not to say the extensive threads about 'ignoring MNK', and other such things aren't keeping up the good fight, but I don't know that I trust the dev team since I've seen these things play out since 2.0 lol.

IMO, it isn't a problem with SAM and MNK, it's a problem with the mentality of tanks. Every tank is capable of holding hate against them even without diversion, they just don't want to do it.

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Originally Posted by Lunali

IMO, it isn't a problem with SAM and MNK, it's a problem with the mentality of tanks. Every tank is capable of holding hate against them even without diversion, they just don't want to do it.

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It's because they have to actually lose a lot to maintain it if they're not circle shirking one another. It's not just a case of provoke and aggro combo. It's a case of, they need to waste a GCD if they're a DRK or PLD to go into tank stance. and then aggro combo. this causes issues rotationally for them because it consumes MP which they expend on Holy spirit rotation. Or just extra dps for the drk. Also aggro combos suck for dps. If people think a voke and aggro combo without tank stance will do anything to a monk or sam's enmity they are mistaken. They're only delaying the inevitable and in optimal gameplay you really don't want to aggro combo for obvious reasons.

Diversion just sucks. It needs to last longer or the CD needs to be available more frequently. OR we just need a straight enmity dump. I don't disagree however that tanks just don't want to do it. I've been in a number of parties where the OT walks around like he's got his finger up his bum while the MT dies and the boss goes on to kill everyone else. I'm just saying in optimized gameplay there's a reason why it's a hassle for the Tank to aggro combo. Hence why circle shirking is a thing because it alleviates the problems with normal aggro combos.

There's no way a competent tank would loose aggro on a single target. You must have been stuck with dps stance Tank who do 1 threat combo on pull and that's it

If they won't change Diversion to half emnity or at least buff it in some way to make it more effective, how about changing some skills in MNK/SAM toolkit to do so?

Purification on MNK could be reworked to be an aggro dump/TP restore, preferably with the Chakra requirement being removed.
Hissatsu: Yaten could be also be reworked to do the same for SAM.

they can just make invigorate work like lucid dreaming/tactician/refresh. the ranged/caster classes have two threat drops, so melee should just have that as well. easy fix.

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Originally Posted by Lunali

IMO, it isn't a problem with SAM and MNK, it's a problem with the mentality of tanks. Every tank is capable of holding hate against them even without diversion, they just don't want to do it.

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Ranged: Tactician, Refresh
Casters: Lucid Dreaming, Diversion
Dragoon: Diversion, Elusive Jump
Ninja: Diversion, Shadewalker

Every other DPS has two options should they so choose. Only MNK and SAM have one. So... please explain how this isn't an issue with these two jobs.

My V1S run this week

Tank: "MNK use your aggro dump already"
Me: "..."
Healer: "MNK doesn't have an aggro dump"
Bard: "MNK HAS NO CHILL!!!"

Edit: It didn't help that the tanks were dying left and right and that they couldn't hold hate against me, while in Fist of Earth because I legit tanked for 40% of the fight.

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Originally Posted by Lunali

IMO, it isn't a problem with SAM and MNK, it's a problem with the mentality of tanks. Every tank is capable of holding hate against them even without diversion, they just don't want to do it.

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If your spamming your aggro combo, yeah sure.

I think the idea is that the only two jobs that have to worry about threat at all really are sam and mnk. if all the rest did as well it would be fair, but as it stands it is imbalanced. how they determine to fix this is up to them, but given the current (well, persistent since 2.0ish) mentality, it would simply be better to give more threat drops to melee to equal the other jobs so tanks don't have to resort to threat combo more simply because they are there.

idk, I think there are more pressing matters with MNK than the threat issue, even more so when we consider MNKs threat issue has existed since 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

idk, I think there are more pressing matters with MNK than the threat issue, even more so when we consider MNKs threat issue has existed since 2.0.

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Assuming they do ever fix the rest of MNK's toolkit, wouldn't that just make threat on MNK more pressing an issue?
It's better to nip the problem in the bud now, even if the bud is a few years old lol.

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Originally Posted by Sora_Oathkeeper

It's because they have to actually lose a lot to maintain it if they're not circle shirking one another. It's not just a case of provoke and aggro combo. It's a case of, they need to waste a GCD if they're a DRK or PLD to go into tank stance. and then aggro combo. this causes issues rotationally for them because it consumes MP which they expend on Holy spirit rotation. Or just extra dps for the drk. Also aggro combos suck for dps. If people think a voke and aggro combo without tank stance will do anything to a monk or sam's enmity they are mistaken. They're only delaying the inevitable and in optimal gameplay you really don't want to aggro combo for obvious reasons.

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The wasted GCD complaint is hardly valid. A competent tank should be watching the agro list, and if they see a DPS creeping up too close, they should proactively adjust to make sure the DPS doesn't take off that hate. Especially in roulette situations, you shouldn't expect that unknown DPS have enmity reducing tools equipped, or that they will use them. When running with people you know, you can adjust to what you know of those players. Not saying DPS shouldn't be attempting to mitigate their agro, but the tank's primary job is to hold hate. If they fail to do that, then they have failed.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Assuming they do ever fix the rest of MNK's toolkit, wouldn't that just make threat on MNK more pressing an issue?
It's better to nip the problem in the bud now, even if the bud is a few years old lol.

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Well, if they do work on it is already assuming too much at this point. But I agree with you, if we aren't going to receive any substantial update.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

The wasted GCD complaint is hardly valid. A competent tank should be watching the agro list, and if they see a DPS creeping up too close, they should proactively adjust to make sure the DPS doesn't take off that hate

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The wasted gcd isnt exactly the issue im talking about. Its the punishment you get from using that gcd to go back into tank stance. I by all means agree that tanks should manage aggro and any dps that doesnt take an enmity reducing skill is an idiot for raid content. Which is specifically what the OP is talking about and in a pug party too. This is why nin will forever be in the meta outside of TA. The sheer extra aggro on tanks that make aggro so much easier to manage and remain only dpsing. It doesnt change the fact that mnk and sam still suffer with terrible enmity control

Why do we need a enmity-reductive CD, best paired with dps CDs, in the first place, instead of just passive enmity siphoning on the part of any and all tanks?

A DPS desires enmity reduction 99% of the time. Diversion, one would think based on its name, would refer to the 1% in which they need to detract enmity from where it'd normally go, grabbing enmity off healers or another DPS in cases of emergency.

A Tank desires enmity augmentation 99% of the time. Shirk, one would think, would then be a much more powerful but temporary tool for that remaining 1% of the time, not a tool to simply pad 25% additional MT enmity every CD.

The prior takes no additional thought, and the latter takes thought only in the situations where that increase came at the expense of actually having to use (or not use) an enmity combo to swap in (or out) -- where its use for a smooth transition would cost a Shirk cast over whatever portion of the fight in which DPS might still eclipse tank enmity (if the tank-under-focus continued not to use enmity tools, in favor of more DPS).

Wasn't the whole point of SB pruning allegedly that if an ability (a) provided no additional thought or identity and (b) promoted bar-watching despite this, it should be pruned? Why, then, did they add further skills to the opposite effect?

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

If your spamming your aggro combo, yeah sure.

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To be honest tank/healer dps is fine as long as they don’t cause problems to the grp members (low hp and enmity). Hate that the mentality changed so much that more and more healer/tanks sacrifice other player just for their „support“ dps...

Own experinces f.e are a death by DOT dmg (62% of max lp) and a kick in ivalice for multiple aggro steal on 2nd boss...

Tanks shouldn't always spam aggro combos dps should have the tools to to decrease they own eminity

MNK should have passive reduced enmity generation on Fists, while SAM has it on their gap closer/backstep.

Both Diversion AND Lucid should both dump enmity AND generate half enmity for the duration of the buff, as well as Tactician/Refresh.


Furthermore, I would say that all melee jobs should get a "mini" Shadewalker rather than diversion, even, or a "shirk" that can ONLY transfer 20% of current enmity to the target's current highest enmity target.

IDEA: Make Yaten --> Enpi --> Gyoten combo and enmity reducer!

It's the easiest solution to put it on invigorate for all melee. solves both mnk and sam at once. More complicated solutions aren't necessary, since ranged physical has two threat dumps and casters have diversion and lucid as a dump. It's bring melee on par with caster threat reductions.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Ranged: Tactician, Refresh
Casters: Lucid Dreaming, Diversion
Dragoon: Diversion, Elusive Jump
Ninja: Diversion, Shadewalker

Every other DPS has two options should they so choose. Only MNK and SAM have one. So... please explain how this isn't an issue with these two jobs.

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That's easy! They get Smokescreen. From the Ninja. The Ninja is required anyways, right? And it's only 33% less effective over time, so that should be good enough.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That's easy! They get Smokescreen. From the Ninja. The Ninja is required anyways, right? And it's only 33% less effective over time, so that should be good enough.

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Chances are, if you're bringing a monk/samurai, you're not bringing a ninja. Bards will whine too much if you don't have a dragoon.