Please Buff Tenacity So Tanks Actually Want To Use Tank Stance

And by buff I mean make tenacity stat increase attack power and direct hit rate stats so that way melding becomes less of a hassle for tanks and somewhat make crafted pentamelds not mandatory for clearing... maybe even have it apply to Defense and Magic Defense... it can do what it currently can do but also what I suggested for buffs...

and what tank stance do in this change?

If you buff tenacity it only makes tank stance less useful.

Not only is Tenacity (and crit) very likely to be the go-to stats in 4.2 and onwards, there is nothing baked into this stat that requires tank stance. Do you know what Tenacity actually does and how there's really only about ~1.5% difference between tenacity builds and DH builds? In exchange for better mitigation, which caps at about ~7% for the current caps, you ONLY lose 1.5%. Sure, some tanks will scoff at that, but it's decent enough that some tanks willingly take the tradeoff. Basically, what are you talking about?

So, what I'm gathering is, you want to NERF tenacity into a stat that only removes some of the damage penalty from tank stance. This will not make tanks use their tank stance more (though I do sometimes wish we actually had a reason, other than initial pull.) Especially Warriors who lose multiple high damage abilities based on stance. This is a terrible implementation for an at least understandable outlook, so you'll at least get some idealist props from me. That said, the meta of this game has been, and will foresee-ably remain DPS focused. I don't really have any confidence that tanks in this game will ever be quite as interesting as some other games' tanks were, for however brief those time periods were.
Tanks are really the most difficult role to design that both accomplish their goals, and satisfy the player with interesting gameplay. We're just sorta there.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Could make tenacity also apply to Defense and Magic Defense so it may make tank stance a bit more desirable but that may require A LOT of coding... but also do the things that it already does as well as the things I mentioned...

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This doesn't change that nothing about Tenacity getting buffed means you'd suddenly want to go into tank stance.

You can do whatever the hell you want to tenacity, I'm not touching tank stance unless I absolutely have to.

Also pentamelds are not necessary to clear absolutely anything.

Like everyone here, I fail to see what Tenacity has anything to do with encouraging tank stance.
You want to make tank stance relevant?
Nerf our survivability in DPS stance... To the point where DPS stance is too much of a burden to maintain for a long period (like cleric stance used to work).

excep you make tenacity "reduce" the tank stance penalty to 0% (or just buff our damage on tank stance) making each tank have to stack a certain amout to archive that and dont buff our dps ouside of tank stance you change dont offer nothing as you explain and tank stances will be stay as the most poor buttom of our hotbars, as longer the damage penalty exist tank stances will be useless at the current state.

Tenacity scaling right now isn’t going to be good, I don’t even bother with it. I’m getting better returns on dps in 1-4 savage using det/dh tbh. But I will second the notion that once we reach the next tier and have another ~30 ilevels, it may reach the light where it’s the go to.

For wanting to be in tank stance, I agree with the notion, really I do. But I don’t think tenacity removing the damage penalty is the way to go. I think all the tank stances should have the damage penalties removed and then altered to be much more interesting to make us want to be in the stance.

If tenacity gets buffed it will only make you want to go into tank stance even less.

The only other option is to have tankbusters that prevent you from dropping tank stance so often

Before I say anything else I have to mention how Shirk is clear proof that the devs have no intention to force tanks to use tank stance.
So to my opinions on this matter. If the devs want tanks to use tank stance then they have to design the content in such a way that it becomes a must, said content would also have to be designed so that the tank who is tanking find it fun, challenging and interesting to tank in tank stance, while at the same moment make it close to impossible to tank that fight in dps stance.
To remove the dps penalty for staying in dps stance would actually not change anything for WAR who have to stay in dps stance in order to access their burst. To add penalty to tanking in dps stance would drive players away. The current content does not demand that players stay in tank stance, all damage is centered around tank buster for which we have more then enough cooldowns (DRK could use some love in that department though), a change here is the only way but that change has to result in content where it is fun and challenging to tank in tank stance and not simply something that is forced upon us.

tank stance should have their damage penalty erased if you want tank to stay in it longer
or even better, mix dps stance and tank stance into one so tank don't need to stance dance and they can just stick to one

Why do people want to stay in tank stance longer then they have to?

No amount of extra mitigation or damage buff will make tanks stay in tank stance after the initial pull. If a stat will increase your damage in tank stance, it will increase it in DPS stance. So a 20% boost to damage in tank stance means a net 0 gain in tank stance and a 20% gain to move into DPS stance. This also means PLDs get their extra 70 potency attack at another 20%, warriors get another 20% damage to their fell cleave+onslaught+upheaval burst and darks gain another 20% to their DA bursts.

Those tanks that stay in tank stance the entire time either don't know how to tank in FFXIV, are afraid they'll lose hate to healers putting up HoTs before pulls, massively AoE overhealing or DPS that don't use their aggro mitigation or are staying in tank stance to learn the fight before optimizing. If your problem is with tanks becoming floor tanks because of busters, they need to learn the fight better so they have better use of their CDs and until they learn the fight tank stance should be used. Healers can learn the fight too so they can maximize their CDs for busters and raid-wide damage. When tanks that know the fight and healers that know the fight and optimize their CD usage, the synergy between everyone (DPS included) goes through the roof and the fight becomes simple and quick. The biggest complaint about tanks in tank stance seem to come from people that don't know how to manage their hate (Tanks, DPS & Healers are responsible for aggro), or people unfamiliar with the fight (Tanks, Healers and DPS are responsible for damage mitigation and healing) any 1 person to fail their responsibility puts extra pressure on the rest of the group to make up for it and that usually ends up being "blame the healer" or "blame the tank".

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

And by buff I mean make tenacity stat increase attack power and direct hit rate stats so that way melding becomes less of a hassle for tanks and somewhat make crafted pentamelds not mandatory for clearing... maybe even have it apply to Defense and Magic Defense... it can do what it currently can do but also what I suggested for buffs...

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Crafted pentamelds are not Mandatory for clearing.
The only TEN change you suggested which TEN doesnt already so is increase Dhit and that would be a retarded change

They could make the affects of tenacity double (or even x1.5) in grit/defiance/shieldoath, and that would actually make people use some if not all tenacity melds. Boss tankbusters might need a bit of balancing though after a change like that. It would at the very least put main tanks in their respected tank stance for tanking.

• Make tanking stances buff your Tenacity stat, maybe double what you have?
• Remove damage penalty of tanking stances, and give dps stances an enmity reduction
• Lock damage reduction cooldowns behind the tanking stances
• Lock all enhanced enmity effects of all skills and abilities behind tanking stances
• Give tanking stances a stacking damage reflection that scales on Tenacity
• Give tanking stances an aura that improves party member stats: PLD aura +x% determination, WAR aura +y% crit rate, DRK aura +z% direct hit

I don't know. It seems that the devs want there to exist some sort of trade-off and define that as the "skill" of a tank player; i.e. knowing when to use what stance makes you more effective. Hence the damage penalty and how the damage reduction cooldowns are mostly not locked behind the tanking stances.

Honestly I don't like the current design, but it seems to be a theme with tanks and healers. Healers need to balance between dps and healing, and tanks need to balance between dps and survivability. The problem with tanks is that they can't seem to decide how fluid they want the transitions, and that influences the encounter design, and we end up with the bullshit that "good tanks spend the minimal amount of time in the tanking stance"---put in another way, there's no trade-off between dps and survivability in the vast majority of the time, because surviability isn't a problem.

I would be interested to main tank again if tank stance changes can be more meaningful and more fluid, or removed altogether.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

• Make tanking stances buff your Tenacity stat, maybe double what you have?
• Remove damage penalty of tanking stances, and give dps stances an enmity reduction
• Lock damage reduction cooldowns behind the tanking stances
• Lock all enhanced enmity effects of all skills and abilities behind tanking stances
• Give tanking stances a stacking damage reflection that scales on Tenacity
• Give tanking stances an aura that improves party member stats: PLD aura +x% determination, WAR aura +y% crit rate, DRK aura +z% direct hit

I don't know. It seems that the devs want there to exist some sort of trade-off and define that as the "skill" of a tank player; i.e. knowing when to use what stance makes you more effective. Hence the damage penalty and how the damage reduction cooldowns are mostly not locked behind the tanking stances.

Honestly I don't like the current design, but it seems to be a theme with tanks and healers. Healers need to balance between dps and healing, and tanks need to balance between dps and survivability. The problem with tanks is that they can't seem to decide how fluid they want the transitions, and that influences the encounter design, and we end up with the bullshit that "good tanks spend the minimal amount of time in the tanking stance"---put in another way, there's no trade-off between dps and survivability in the vast majority of the time, because surviability isn't a problem.

I would be interested to main tank again if tank stance changes can be more meaningful and more fluid, or removed altogether.

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So you would tank if you didn't have to be good at it?

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Originally Posted by Zfz

• Make tanking stances buff your Tenacity stat, maybe double what you have?
• Remove damage penalty of tanking stances, and give dps stances an enmity reduction
• Lock damage reduction cooldowns behind the tanking stances
• Lock all enhanced enmity effects of all skills and abilities behind tanking stances
• Give tanking stances a stacking damage reflection that scales on Tenacity
• Give tanking stances an aura that improves party member stats: PLD aura +x% determination, WAR aura +y% crit rate, DRK aura +z% direct hit

I don't know. It seems that the devs want there to exist some sort of trade-off and define that as the "skill" of a tank player; i.e. knowing when to use what stance makes you more effective. Hence the damage penalty and how the damage reduction cooldowns are mostly not locked behind the tanking stances.

Honestly I don't like the current design, but it seems to be a theme with tanks and healers. Healers need to balance between dps and healing, and tanks need to balance between dps and survivability. The problem with tanks is that they can't seem to decide how fluid they want the transitions, and that influences the encounter design, and we end up with the bullshit that "good tanks spend the minimal amount of time in the tanking stance"---put in another way, there's no trade-off between dps and survivability in the vast majority of the time, because surviability isn't a problem.

I would be interested to main tank again if tank stance changes can be more meaningful and more fluid, or removed altogether.

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So in other words make tank role easy enough that even the most incompetent of players can play the role? Tanking takes skill, knowledge of mechanics, and tactics. Right now they seem well balance and if anything people who understand it can play it with the exception of newer savage content. I think it's more of the players that need more training on the role than the job it self. If anything I would give a boost to Cool downs.

Addition: Not sure Mira Celeniq is your main you really don't have tank role level enough to really judge it from my perspective. If your 70 on them they make more sense. IF you do have an alternate tank maxed out you may want to specify which one and compare it to others. Other wise the only advice I can give you is level them up and then judge.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

So in other words make tank role easy enough that even the most incompetent of players can play the role? Tanking takes skill, knowledge of mechanics, and tactics. Right now they seem well balance and if anything people who understand it can play it with the exception of newer savage content. I think it's more of the players that need more training on the role than the job it self. If anything I would give a boost to Cool downs.

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I'd say yes on that for DRK, they need a ton of love. PLD and WAR are pretty damn good with their CDs as is; any more and it'd start being faceroll easy. I love the fact that the new shake it off requires burning a CD to get better party mitigation than PLD's veil. Still, good use of WAR cds means you can line up your CDs for busters and raid-wide damage. Optimizing that for savage fights and ex primals is proving to be really fun.

Tanking requires memorization of an encounter, when to press button, and healer does rest. Ergo no real tanking involved. And why should there be if the healer will top you off anyway.

Want to get rid of Tank stance? Want to make life easy. All right.

Plop this on every attack skill Tanks have. Additional Effect : Inflicting damage with skill generates aggro and also puts you at the top of the Enmity list for 15 seconds.

Because honestly only reason to go Tank Stance is Enmity.

Done deal. Easy peasy.

If SE wants tanks to actually tank in tank stance (jeebus), then they will have to learn from WoW: MoP and make each tank need to use active mitigation that is only available when in the tank stance. Even then, the way fights are, tanks would still only pop into tank stance long enough to eat the tankbuster, and pop back out. I actually would LOVE if SE made tanks more active and necessary like was done in WoW (one of the few things that game got right), but I don't think any one of us should be holding our breath.

The main advice for tanking,

DON'T be under gear.
Know your CD's / Rotation both what they do and timing.
Use food if you want some sort of temp boost.
If you feel pressure or need advice speak up.
Keep in mind everyone has their own play style don't judge unless you want to be judged.
If you wonder why healers or DPS move or act they way they do cut them some slack. Most can't understand it unless they have played that job long enough. At a minimum get one of each role to 70 to have the basics down.

The world doesn't revolve around you nor are you excluded we all have the same advantages and disadvantages. Depending on your experience, time , ect skills and understanding can vary.

Lastly have fun.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

The main advice for tanking,

DON'T be under gear.
Know your CD's / Rotation both what they do and timing.
Use food if you want some sort of temp boost.
If you feel pressure or need advice speak up.
Keep in mind everyone has their own play style don't judge unless you want to be judged.

The world doesn't revolve around you nor are you excluded we all have the same advantages and disadvantages. Depending on your experience, time , ect skills and understanding can vary.

Lastly have fun.

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Great. Now what relevance does that have with this topic? The title should really be updated as I believe we've all ruled out Tenacity changes as a feasible solution to tanks not really being active tanks that are PREFERRED to be in tank stance.

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Originally Posted by Llus

So you would tank if you didn't have to be good at it?

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Woah, how did you get that conclusion? Hold your horses there, stop making assumptions and let's get back to the matter at hand, not the people discussing the matter.

I'm saying that the tanking stances for tank jobs in this game don't seem meaningful. They're like a cooldown that we activate for certain situations, and we try to minimize that. I don't like that design. When the community is all about "good tanks know when to use what stance" instead of "minimize tanking stance" then the stances are meaningful. That said, I don't have a better or alternate design.

So I would tank if I like the design. Which is, like, obvious in a game? We play what we like. (Well there are people who play for other stuff like satisfaction or fame or difficulty, but not me, I play for fun.)

@ManuelBravo: I created an alt on a preferred server and have been leveling that. I have been tanking since 2.0 beta (if you haven't gathered that I'm a beta player from my join date) and gradually stopped because I don't like how it's designed. I've experienced it and judged it at 50, and I've done so again at 60, and finally decided to main a DPS instead for 4.x and try out healing on the side.

Back on topic, I don't think any changes to Tenacity is going to do anything to tanking unless the design of tanks is fundamentally changed.

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Originally Posted by RuneSevalle

Great. Now what relevance does that have with this topic? The title should really be updated as I believe we've all ruled out Tenacity changes as a feasible solution to tanks not really being active tanks that are PREFERRED to be in tank stance.

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Besides the fact that most people think they know how to tank and tired of seeing people complain when they are not even level 70...just friendly advice nothing more. I apologize for going off topic.

Lets be honest here, bosses like shinryu EX have worked great to put tanks back in their tank stance. Even the enrage worked out great. The only reason a tank might want to slip out of tank stance is to skip one of the ahk mourns. His enrage does not work like a dps clock till enrage begins at %hp so you can play it safe and stay in tank stance as much as you want. This is the best kind of enrage design allowing tanks to worry less about their DPS till clock begins instead of the whole fight.

For what tenacity was designed to do (be an all around nice tank stat), it's working as intended. The community is pressing tanks for DPS though because of enrage being a time spent in fight so we are melding direct cause it gives the most. Some players actually enjoy the risk vs reward that comes with tanking outside of tank stance.

For what its worth, I think it would be neat if tanking bosses relied more on being in your tank stance and off tanking being for off tanks tance and even role skills could align with this more but I don't see that happening or really anything changing.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Lets be honest here, bosses like shinryu EX have worked great to put tanks back in their tank stance. Even the enrage worked out great. The only reason a tank might want to slip out of tank stance is to skip one of the ahk mourns. His enrage does not work like a dps clock till enrage begins at %hp so you can play it safe and stay in tank stance as much as you want. This is the best kind of enrage design allowing tanks to worry less about their DPS till clock begins instead of the whole fight.

For what tenacity was designed to do (be an all around nice tank stat), it's working as intended. The community is pressing tanks for DPS though because of enrage being a time spent in fight so we are melding direct cause it gives the most. Some players actually enjoy the risk vs reward that comes with tanking outside of tank stance.

For what its worth, I think it would be neat if tanking bosses relied more on being in your tank stance and off tanking being for off tanks tance and even role skills could align with this more but I don't see that happening or really anything changing.

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Ummmm.... Nope? The ONLY time I'll go back into tank stance after initial pull for Shinryu is during the healer check phases with the dragon heads and that's ONLY if they're having problems curing 4 heads and 2 tanks. This is why PLD is really awesome in this fight since they can clemency heads, themselves or their co-tank during healer check phases.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

Woah, how did you get that conclusion? Hold your horses there, stop making assumptions and let's get back to the matter at hand, not the people discussing the matter.

I'm saying that the tanking stances for tank jobs in this game don't seem meaningful. They're like a cooldown that we activate for certain situations, and we try to minimize that. I don't like that design. When the community is all about "good tanks know when to use what stance" instead of "minimize tanking stance" then the stances are meaningful. That said, I don't have a better or alternate design.

So I would tank if I like the design. Which is, like, obvious in a game? We play what we like. (Well there are people who play for other stuff like satisfaction or fame or difficulty, but not me, I play for fun.)

@ManuelBravo: I created an alt on a preferred server and have been leveling that. I have been tanking since 2.0 beta (if you haven't gathered that I'm a beta player from my join date) and gradually stopped because I don't like how it's designed. I've experienced it and judged it at 50, and I've done so again at 60, and finally decided to main a DPS instead for 4.x and try out healing on the side.

Back on topic, I don't think any changes to Tenacity is going to do anything to tanking unless the design of tanks is fundamentally changed.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

• Make tanking stances buff your Tenacity stat, maybe double what you have?
• Remove damage penalty of tanking stances, and give dps stances an enmity reduction
• Lock damage reduction cooldowns behind the tanking stances
• Lock all enhanced enmity effects of all skills and abilities behind tanking stances
• Give tanking stances a stacking damage reflection that scales on Tenacity
• Give tanking stances an aura that improves party member stats: PLD aura +x% determination, WAR aura +y% crit rate, DRK aura +z% direct hit

I don't know. It seems that the devs want there to exist some sort of trade-off and define that as the "skill" of a tank player; i.e. knowing when to use what stance makes you more effective. Hence the damage penalty and how the damage reduction cooldowns are mostly not locked behind the tanking stances.

Honestly I don't like the current design, but it seems to be a theme with tanks and healers. Healers need to balance between dps and healing, and tanks need to balance between dps and survivability. The problem with tanks is that they can't seem to decide how fluid they want the transitions, and that influences the encounter design, and we end up with the bullshit that "good tanks spend the minimal amount of time in the tanking stance"---put in another way, there's no trade-off between dps and survivability in the vast majority of the time, because surviability isn't a problem.

I would be interested to main tank again if tank stance changes can be more meaningful and more fluid, or removed altogether.

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The above...

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Originally Posted by Zfz

@ManuelBravo: I created an alt on a preferred server and have been leveling that. I have been tanking since 2.0 beta (if you haven't gathered that I'm a beta player from my join date) and gradually stopped because I don't like how it's designed. I've experienced it and judged it at 50, and I've done so again at 60, and finally decided to main a DPS instead for 4.x and try out healing on the side.

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So in other words on and off, even though changes have been made you just start all over. This why I had mentioned if you have an alternate. Since new system was implemented most people freak out and not realize that the changes were not that big of a deal just removal of certain actions ( less likely used ) implementation of visuals to make things easier ( if people take the time to learn them ) and role sharing. Tenancy attribute was a great addition for the tank role if people try to understand more on how it works. The only reason I say this being I've been legacy myself and haven't stop playing it, been through all changes, I know certain things yes they could be improved in one way or another that is how SE got here so far based on player feed back. If you know the basics for tanking or any other job is a matter of practicing with the tools they have. Some players do better out of tank stance do to difficulty level only makes it a waste, are over confident, and healers don't speak up that they are making their job harder. It's sad seeing people who think they can tank with out tank stance and only make the run unbearable or make it harder on the healer and blame them. UNLESS people speak up to them / or constantly proof that they are having tank enmity problems they won't change stance. People stay quiet to avoid having the tank leave. That isn't a Tenacity issue that is more of a player play style issue. I play tank as a second type of role and have really no mayor issue, lower content swap between them based on group. Newer content for the most part use tank stance. If anything DRK is the only job that is missing the most love compared to PLD and WAR. With the exception of PvP it's pretty nice system compared to the old one.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Lets be honest here, bosses like shinryu EX have worked great to put tanks back in their tank stance. Even the enrage worked out great. The only reason a tank might want to slip out of tank stance is to skip one of the ahk mourns.

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I have no clue what you're talking about lol. Only time I was in tank stance for my first shinryu clear was on pull, and during second add spawn to pick up the other large dragon (for no aggro memes). Everything is perfectly mitigate-able in that fight outside tank stance.

Tank stance isn’t really the problem.
It’s our dps stance that’s too strong.
Tank stance is high cost low reward, dps stance is low cost high reward.

I'd be very supportive to nerfing our dps stance in both enmity and survivability.
Make it like blood 4 blood with increased damage taken, reduce our hp pool to dps class level, reduce healing received, any that would make it a meaningful decision to go into dps stance.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

I have no clue what you're talking about lol. Only time I was in tank stance for my first shinryu clear was on pull, and during second add spawn to pick up the other large dragon (for no aggro memes). Everything is perfectly mitigate-able in that fight outside tank stance.

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The fact that our DPS isn't so important that we have to be in DPS stance as much as possible the whole fight? Shinryu EX has an enrage that doesn't start till low HP% instead of from first pull... A tank can sit in tank stance to lower healer burden or just play in tank stance for once.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

The fact that our DPS isn't so important that we have to be in DPS stance as much as possible the whole fight? Shinryu EX has an enrage that doesn't start till low HP% instead of from first pull... A tank can sit in tank stance to lower healer burden or just play in tank stance for once.

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Don't play as well as you could just because you don't have to? And by the way, higher dps in shinryu is fantastic. Let's you skip phases very easily. I never saw divebomb once while learning that fight.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

Don't play as well as you could just because you don't have to? And by the way, higher dps in shinryu is fantastic. Let's you skip phases very easily. I never saw divebomb once while learning that fight.

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Yes, lets go straight to the elitest attitude. The Point of this thread from what I gathered was being able to play in tank stance. I noted shinryu allows it the best currently due to the way its enrage works. You want to do your best and push yourself go for it. Phase skipping and doing your best is irrelevant as long as you clear, so is phase pushing. You want speedruns or w/e then do what you want.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Yes, lets go straight to the elitest attitude. The Point of this thread from what I gathered was being able to play in tank stance. I noted shinryu allows it the best currently due to the way its enrage works. You want to do your best and push yourself go for it. Phase skipping and doing your best is irrelevant as long as you clear, so is phase pushing. You want speedruns or w/e then do what you want.

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What exactly is elitist about wanting people to play to the best of their abilities? This thread was created under an incorrect assumption in the first place-that buffing tenacity would make people spend more time in tank stance, when it'd actually be the opposite. Therefore I don't really care about the thread itself, I just wanted to point out that there's absolutely nothing about shinryu ex that *encourages* playing in tank stance.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

What exactly is elitist about wanting people to play to the best of their abilities? This thread was created under an incorrect assumption in the first place-that buffing tenacity would make people spend more time in tank stance, when it'd actually be the opposite. Therefore I don't really care about the thread itself, I just wanted to point out that there's absolutely nothing about shinryu ex that *encourages* playing in tank stance.

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Not having to worry so much about dps untill enrage begins significantly encourages me to spend more time if not full time in tank stance, or at least until I'm confident a group I'm in can keep me alive without leaving me wondering if I'd survived something that killed me if I was in tank stance. The problem is not wanting people to play to the best of their abilities, its the assumption that everyone can play as well as you can in deliverance and roll with a group that can phase skip.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Not having to worry so much about dps untill enrage begins significantly encourages me to spend more time if not full time in tank stance, or at least until I'm confident a group I'm in can keep me alive without leaving me wondering if I'd survived something that killed me if I was in tank stance. The problem is not wanting people to play to the best of their abilities, its the assumption that everyone can play as well as you can in deliverance and roll with a group that can phase skip.

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But...dps is something that *everyone* is always worrying about. It's how the game works, you get the boss to 0 hp, you win. The faster you do that, the better. In shinryu's case, you can skip a significant amount of mechanics with good raid dps, thus ensuring less mechanics for people to potentially mess up and die to, thus lowering group dps even more. It's a net gain. But the catch is that you don't learn how to do that until you try. If you spend all your time in tank stance and get used to that extra passive mitigation/hp, then *of course* you're probably gonna die when you try to take it off, because you don't know when you need to use extra mitigation to help your healers out. Have no fear.

Watch they will buff Shinryu EX to have a unique enrage if you try to push phase...