My Thoughts on qu times for dungeons

first off i played wow for years now im trying this out and im faced with 30min+ qus to get in a dungeon which iv been spamming main story quest so im unlocking new ones fast and the w8 time is just a joke i remember wow had this problem and they gave tanks/healers a reward giving them a reason to qu up and that made the dps life so much better.
as a new player this is annoying and frustrating and i think this will turn new players off playing something needs to be done

Maybe find a healer or Tank to que with?

I don't think the problem is us queuing. It's more of the fact that there are way more dps than tanks and healers. The number of dps vs the number of tanks and healers is just..way too big. Maybe more DPS needs to switch over and it may eventually even out which results in shorter queue times.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

Maybe more DPS needs to switch over and it may eventually even out which results in shorter queue times.

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No need for the "may". If DPS would switch over, the queue times would become shorter. In the same vein, if tanks and healers would just queue for content twice over, that would also result in shorter queue times.

Just... why would people do that?
If someone enjoys DPS and doesn't enjoy tanking/healing, doing the latter defeats their purpose of playing the game in the first place. They're better off passing the queue time with other means rather than switching.
Tanks and healers have no reason to double their queuing efforts either, because it doesn't increase their enjoyment. They're better off just keeping up their current routine.

It's a systemic issue that needs a systemic solution, plain and simple. Asking either party to please "make it work" is fruitless and a pointless blame debate because it's just two equally selfish groups flinging feces at each other going:"No U!". Or more commonly it's just tanks/healers flinging feces at DPS.
Either way I consider that beneath me.

Systemic solutions aren't hard to find either - Opening up DPS slots for the most part only requires additional mob HP to work, allowing non-trinity comps is as simple as replacing un-avoidable abilities with avoidable ones or putting up a damage down/regen effect like in solo duties. Both can be scripted.
Making Tanks/Healers more "fun" is a technical solution, but not a practical one, because the people you'd need to make them more fun for are DPS players, which means converting them to a more DPS focused playstyle which comes at the cost of core tank/healer players.

The main barrier is politics, much like in real life. Just because you can make everyone better off doesn't mean it's not going to be met with resistance because "muh status quo". Such is life.

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Originally Posted by Wizardlizard

first off i played wow for years now im trying this out and im faced with 30min+ qus to get in a dungeon which iv been spamming main story quest so im unlocking new ones fast and the w8 time is just a joke i remember wow had this problem and they gave tanks/healers a reward giving them a reason to qu up and that made the dps life so much better.
as a new player this is annoying and frustrating and i think this will turn new players off playing something needs to be done

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The reward for tanks/healers or currently needed jobs is there.

For me: I leveled all my tanks and healers and now I'm leveling some DD and use the DR for them. So currently, there is no chance that I'll participate as tank or healer in DR.

I think I'm not alone with this but yeah, queue times are long :(

Maybe it would help to give the cracked cluster also to 50/60 and mainscenario, because queue times are always 25+ minutes.

Well granted SE keep always adding more dps jobs...
It may not change the fact or maybe just maybe players are bored of the current healers and tanks? One cannot say i guess
I suppose we will see next expansion IF we get new healer and tank job sometime from now :(

Btw i agree with you 100% Zojha, myself rarely do i tank or heal just with randoms i much prefer to wait until friends are around but also much prefer to dps

I have no clue how far the implementation of the squads is going, but maybe perhaps story dungeons and what not that are needed to progress we can just go in with them. Waiting hrs just for a story dungeon is not my idea of fun...

The hard part is finding a reward in this system that would allow them to jump in more.

In our current system there's little reason to go into these roulette after you've geared yourself. If you're a tank by the time you get to 70, and run things a few times mixed with Omega, you're pretty much geared. After that it's all about doing the EX trails for weapons and minor enhancements.

These cracked clusters are nice, but unless you're trying to push the numbers they aren't needed. They don't make things noticeably better unless you over stack and look at your numbers. This, to me, is the flaw with so much vertical progression and lack of customization. Once I'm leveled and geared properly there's no reason for me to do Leveling Roulette.

By the time we gear up and mess around, it's already talks about patch X.X, we know new gear is coming, new iLV.

Also, if you are tanking or healing, you get one of these lower level dungeons they are so much longer than HW or SB. This, also to me, shows we need a QoL adjustment to dungeons. Such as Sastasha, that can be shorten down or clipped off.

There is a simple solution. 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps for all dungeons... increase gear drops for what roles is in the group... problem solved. 5 or 6 player dungeons would really go a long way with decreasing queue times.

Like others have said, the incentives are in place. But I've already had all three tanks leveled since early July and I'm leveling dps jobs now. Most tank mains are the same, we've already long since gotten them to 70 and have no incentive to run roulettes them aside from maybe needing a cracked cluster.

When I wait in queues as dps there are still things to do. Hunting log, fates (you can have your chocobo out now) sidequest, even gathering to have some side money.

I'm used to crazy long queue times for leveling roulette the one that gets me is mentor roulette... 30+ mins for mentor roulette only to have half your party drop cuz it's a ex primal... I got nidhogg x the other day and people instantly started yelling at whoever queued via df for not making a party using the pf instead... not even 10 seconds in we lost a healer... dropped out and requeued only to wait another 30 mins for ramuh x... again players instantly dropped out...repeat til I finally ended up in a guildhest

I just don't get the feel of dps jobs in this game being so much better, I think it's alot more to it then just dps are more fun because they really aren't

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

I'm used to crazy long queue times for leveling roulette the one that gets me is mentor roulette... 30+ mins for mentor roulette only to have half your party drop cuz it's a ex primal... I got nidhogg x the other day and people instantly started yelling at whoever queued via df for not making a party using the pf instead... not even 10 seconds in we lost a healer... dropped out and requeued only to wait another 30 mins for ramuh x... again players instantly dropped out...repeat til I finally ended up in a guildhest

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The fact people leave instantly(and it's mentors who do it the most) when they get something they don't like is why the 30min lockout needs to be harsher.

First offence, 30min. Second, 1 hour. Third, 4 hours. Fourth, 8 hours. Fifth, 24 hours.

Sure, people will complain about the punishment, but at the same time, they are causing issues for those who spent who knows how long queuing for something. As mentors, they should stick around and help people(and yes, I am a mentor who will stick around until either a clear, time runs out, or vote abandon happens - and I never initiate the vote I let the new people do that). That, and the Mentor status needs to be harder to get. Not just "get this many classes of each type to X level, clear all this content - doesn't even account for carries/unsynced clears, and have this many dungeon/trial/raid runs". Some sort of test, where you HAVE to complete each of the EX primals, synced, and with no higher than 10 ilevels above the minimum.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

There is a simple solution. 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps for all dungeons... increase gear drops for what roles is in the group... problem solved. 5 or 6 player dungeons would really go a long way with decreasing queue times.

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The solution is "simple" but it will only provide temporary relief.

DPS queues will shorten, but as as soon as the first Tank or Healer realizes the DPS queue is tolerable enough for them, they will switch to DPS. So not only did you gain a DPS in queue, you lost a Tank or Healer that the short DPS queues are reliant upon. Eventually, enough Tanks and Healers will become DPS and we will be right back where we started.

This solution might provide relief for a whole day if we are lucky.

They could make it so a mentor can't leave the mentor roulette unless the party isn't full...

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

They could make it so a mentor can't leave the mentor roulette unless the party isn't full...

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As a mentor I'd be 100% fine with this.

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Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

The solution is "simple" but it will only provide temporary relief.

DPS queues will shorten, but as as soon as the first Tank or Hy.

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I really doubt thus would happen

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

I really doubt thus would happen

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What is causing you to "really doubt" my scenario?

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Originally Posted by Astral145

There is a simple solution. 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps for all dungeons... increase gear drops for what roles is in the group... problem solved. 5 or 6 player dungeons would really go a long way with decreasing queue times.

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it's a simple concept but a difficult to impossible implementation. easier said than done applies here.

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Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

What is causing you to "really doubt" my scenario?

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As a tank main and healer secondary player. I love all jobs love the lore behind them etc, only have four jobs til all of them are max. But the thing about tankin is you can set the ton of a dungeon run as a tank you cant do this as a dps. So thats not always worth giving up as much as I enjoy dpsing , I hate three add pulling tanks and with the number of post about dps pulling adds Im certainly not the only one like this. So its not really worth playing dps all the time having to spend 30 mins per dungeon run when you could tank it yourself and cut that time down. Some people actually like the leadership roll that tanks somewhat hold in dungeons so not everyone would just go and main a dps.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

There is a simple solution. 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps for all dungeons... increase gear drops for what roles is in the group... problem solved. 5 or 6 player dungeons would really go a long way with decreasing queue times.

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First problem solved only to make a new problem that leads to the same issue. Increase the number of DPS would speed up runs and make dungeons even more trivial then they all ready are due to the increased damage output. Dungeons becoming even more trivial and more boring means fewer tanks and healers que and we are in the exact same position.

The root cause of long DPS que isn't the number of DPS but the number of healers and even more so tanks. This suggestion is just treating a symptom of that instead of curing the illness.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

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I appreciate your response, agreed with it, and gave it a like.

Unfortunately, you can only speak you. I am sure you have ran into players who would have preferred to play as DPS over tanks and healers. If they have the opportunity to do so in a dungeon setting, they would. Now, how long they stay DPS is another question entirly. I am just making my case based on how popular the DPS role seems to be in this MMO as well as other MMO and tabletop RPGs.

This same argument again just worded differently. The cause of the issue is the playerbase. The only way for a real solution will have to come from the playerbase as well. Nothing the game developers do will have more effect than using a band aid to fix a broken water pipe. Additionally a majority of people's "Suggestions" would require an overhaul of a very large portion of the game in regards to instanced content not to mention rebalancing defense and mitigation statistics for tanks to be able to handle the additional damage.

FFXI "meta" party composition when people made non cannon exp groups was 6 members. Tank, healer, refresher, dps, dps, puller/dps. 3 out of 6 slots normally had problems getting filled. Hint they aren't the ones with DPS in them. Which kind of hints that more dps slots in party comp does not fix issue.

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Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

The solution is "simple" but it will only provide temporary relief.

DPS queues will shorten, but as as soon as the first Tank or Healer realizes the DPS queue is tolerable enough for them, they will switch to DPS. So not only did you gain a DPS in queue, you lost a Tank or Healer that the short DPS queues are reliant upon. Eventually, enough Tanks and Healers will become DPS and we will be right back where we started.

This solution might provide relief for a whole day if we are lucky.

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The queue times would be reduce to 15 to 20 mins on average so no tanks/healers will not jump ship like you think. Tanks and healers on average get instant to 5 min queue times...

So yea 1 tank 1 healer and 3 dps would be the best option for this issue

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Originally Posted by Astral145

The queue times would be reduce to 15 to 20 mins on average so no tanks/healers will not jump ship like you think. Tanks and healers on average get instant to 5 min queue times...

So yea 1 tank 1 healer and 3 dps would be the best option for this issue

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DPS queue is already 15-20 minutes when I play. just adding another dps slot would drop it about half that for all of maybe 1 day before the player base role spread adjusts to the new ratio and you are back at square 1.

The dps queues are very long, but that's just to be expected when the player base is mainly comprised of dps roles. Just queue with a tank or a healer and you'll get in quickly, or you could like do other quests while you wait, or work on your crafting.

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Originally Posted by Wizardlizard

first off i played wow for years now im trying this out and im faced with 30min+ quus...snip...the w8 time is just a joke i remember wow had this problem and they gave tanks/healers a reward giving them a reason to qu up and that made the dps life so much better.
as a new player this is annoying and frustrating and i think this will turn new players off playing something needs to be done

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I don't recall it being any different in WoW. When I queued as Ret Paladin I was guaranteed a 30 minute wait. Sure I abused Paladin's ability to tank for the reward, but that lasted maybe 2 weeks before it wasn't worth the hassle. And you couldn't pay me cold hard cash IRL to heal a modern WoW dungeon below the Mythic level. I suspect from what I've read/experienced so far things are much the same here.

The issue of required group composition is as old as the idea of grouping in an mmo.
The best solution for this game is a social one. Make friends. Now understand that I'm not being simply dismissive here.

But I'll give it a try.

One option i can think of is a "block mechanic" which allows the dps to act as a tank when they get agro, but prevents all other actions. When blocking and not being attacked it regens their hp, increasing in rate the longer they hold the button. This allows for "opportunity loss" to be the primary factor in play style. Other members would have to pull the mob off you before you take too much damage. and you cant be DPS while blocking. Tactics would evolve and control abilities (kiting, sleeping, etc) would come back into vogue as DPS tries to minimize their opportunity loss. The presence of a tank or a healer would increase their dps time dramatically, and having both would be where we are now.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

... Nothing the game developers do will have more effect than using a band aid to fix a broken water pipe....

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Actually, there is a lot they can do, just little of it easy, and it starts with them giving the Tanking and Healing jobs some serious attention so that they are, at the very least, enjoyable and rewarding to play... unlike their current state where WAR and SCH got knifed, WHM got totally ignored, DRK got reworked for the worse, and PLD and AST are at best 'OK' (I'm talking gameplay wise of course, they are all 'viable'; I hate that word).

Content design also plays a part, and the SB dungeons, more so than in HW, seem to have a lot of random and / or un-telegraphed spike damage, which is not fun for either the Tank (who just mitigated an auto instead on an instant tank buster) or the Healer (who can't feel comfortable contributing in other ways for fear of the party suddenly and unexpectedly losing 3/4 of their HP).

Of course, this isn't going to change the minds of the hardcode DPS players who would never even think of playing a different role, but for those on the fence, or wanting to give Tanking / Healing a try, the experience could be vastly improved (which in the end is far better than any sort of reward / stick mechanism).

only solution I can think of is encourage your friends to go tank and healer to even up the player base. I know its not for everyone but leveling those roles your self can help free up wait time as you can rotate roles with your friends. I personally run a healer and the que time is great for us so that could be plenty incentive to draw in new blood.

The problem is that in FFXIV the vast majority of players are DPS. I main Paladin and Tanks are only around 10% of the player base and Healers are about a quarter of the player base. EVERYONE ELSE is a DPS. The only way to fix DPS queue times is if DPS players decided to switch to Tank or Healer classes, but that is never gonna happen.