[Off-Topic] WoW Raiding

Hello, i don't know if this is the appropiate section to post this thread.

I am sorry for doing it and thanks for reading.

Yesterday, one friend told me that it took 654 tries from a top guild to clear to have the first clear on the last boss from the last raid of WoW. And the second one arround 900.

I have watched the replay of that kill and it is being a bit hard to believe that it took 654 tries, 654!.

Someone who plays ff and wow at the same time could explain me how is it posible? From my ignorant perspective of the actually WoW it doens't look that hard to have to make 654 tries to get the clear it. I really would like to understand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8it5rki5I10

You're watching the replay of attempt number 654. Go find some footage of attempt 14 or 129.

After you've done a fight 600 times, it starts to look easier and easier.

a note: said guild said that several days were wasted because the boss was considered unkillable with the raw number of dmg he was throwing out (with some mechanics also overlapping too quickly, in short you could say that the attempt are a bit padded because they had to wait for the team to hotfix the fight (a bit shameful considering they have a PTR but w/e)

edit: incidentally that fight was also nerfed a bit this reset btw

Its easier when you know what to do and expect. Something the majority of raiders in mmo's minus the 1% do not get is that that learning a fight without reading a guide is hard. People can barely succeed with a guide image doing it all without.

WoW usually caps the fights with gearchecks (aka artifficial difficulty) so they're unkillable at start on purpose.

Also don't forget that unlike WoW raiding where if one or two people die the raid wipes in this game you have a boat load of battle rezes on top of limit break 3 battle res which is something raiders in WoW do not have the luxury of having.

I remember taking my guild close to 500 attempts to defeat Heroic Lich King back in the day.

Fights are typically designed with notion that guilds will have farmed the raid for several weeks, where as the top guilds will throw themselves at the final boss 400-500 times a week with far less than optimal gear in order to get that world first.

I seem to remember hearing somewhere that the group that got world first on Living Liquid savage took around that many attempts to do it.

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Originally Posted by Unsung_Wanderer

Also don't forget that unlike WoW raiding where if one or two people die the raid wipes in this game you have a boat load of battle rezes on top of limit break 3 battle res which is something raiders in WoW do not have the luxury of having.

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Thats right but i think thats fine when you think about some huge thing raiders in ff dont have..boss mods and timers for each ability and mechanic of the boss as well as things that tell you when to move where and stuff..and pls dont tell me now that these people dont have them..they usually have them because each top guild in wow has its own more or less dedicated addon programmers.

there's a....mmmmh way around that

What you dont see in that type of videos is, that every tiny mistake means you die. After 3 deads, you can go and wipe. It look's easy, because they are the top 5% (WoW) players world-wide (and they had 600+ tries to learn that fight). They are TOTAL undergeared for that kind of fight.

You can be sure, even if you think it's easy - it's not. Every of them has to play at their maximum, without any mistakes and not wasting a fraction of an GCD.

Dont forget - as much undergeared as you can be, so everyone has to be at the maximum to dish out the needed HPS/DPS to win that fight.

I don't think it's really adequate to compare the two games for raiding, tbh. In WoW it's the devs' lifeblood - they love creating them, challenging the playerbase with them, and rewarding the players for completing them. I won't say raiding is an "afterthought" in XIV like a lot of salty people like to do, but IMO it's pretty obvious that accessibility comes first to Square Enix, and hardcore raiding is the total antithesis of that.

Mythic Nighthold had about the same percentage of player clears as Gordias Savage, if that gives you an idea of the time commitment and difficulty required. Their Heroic raid clear percents are more similar to the Savage Creator level. Some of it is gear check, but some of it is just how the game is designed - tanks have a lot of small cooldowns that require resources to use but very few "big" cooldowns like Sentinel or Vengeance (to say nothing of Dead/HG lol). A spell like Cure III would be on a three-minute cooldown in WoW instead of on the global. In return, damage is still high, but less spikey, and it's more about staying ahead of the damage/outlasting the boss before he can outlast you. Classes like BRDs don't exist, so healer MP is ultra finite and they don't have too many solid oGCD emergency buttons like here.

In truth, I'd hazard that tanking and healing design in WoW is part of what makes their raids difficult. It's less about pitch-perfect lockstep mechanics and more about optimizing your throughput on your class.

Gordias was the most like a WoW Mythic insofar as how it tested your true optimization ability on your chosen job, IMO, and I think the similar clear numbers reflected that.

Blizzard is pretty lazy when it comes to add visual effects to the mechanics. In most fights, from the point of view of someone who is ignorant from that specific encounter mechanics, it will look like everyone is just standing there doing nothing but their basic rotations, moving in and out at some times, creating a feeling of 'what? these guys really took 600 tries to dodge fireballs and soak some void zones?' when actually people are handling dozens of mechanics at a time, it is just that there is almost no visual warning whatsoever to most of them. Blizzard says otherwise, but they clearly design encounters expecting players to have mods/addons to tell them when mechanics are coming and how to handle them.

Also, gear really makes a difference in wow, because there are not many instant kill mechanics(like in ffxiv) and many mechanics are bypassed with enough dps/heal, while your friend took 654 tries to down the boss, many guilds who will get there later and thus have much more gear will not have more than 200 tries.

Lastly, while there are these insanely difficult bosses who take 600+ tries to kill, there is a number of mythic bosses that will take like 3 or 4 tries to kill even for the more casual groups.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

In truth, I'd hazard that tanking and healing design in WoW is part of what makes their raids difficult. It's less about pitch-perfect lockstep mechanics and more about optimizing your throughput on your class.

Gordias was the most like a WoW Mythic insofar as how it tested your true optimization ability on your chosen job, IMO, and I think the similar clear numbers reflected that.

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To ride on this, Healing in WoW is more of a triage on keeping people alive and prioritizing who needs heals at any given moment; you aren't going to waste a GCD on throwing out damage spells because that can literally mean life or death in that moment. WoW mechanics also tend to be more precision oriented with execution rather than "dancing" (think A3s digitities without the shoddy server delay). You can look at the mechanics in the WoW video and see how precise the fireball detection is, compared to FFXIV when you have to account for latency and server tickrate.

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won't say raiding is an "afterthought" in XIV like a lot of salty people like to do, but IMO it's pretty obvious that accessibility comes first to Square Enix, and hardcore raiding is the total antithesis of that.

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And this is why Square Enix is better than Blizzard. Accessibility is a very good thing, it means more people will enjoy your content, less toxicity from the playerbase, and more fun all around.

Mmo or not, if rpg is about raiding there won't be a hero or a game in any context.
Can you imagine Lyse asking, how are we going to free Ala Mhigo?
Oh yea, let's get our squad killed 653x then brag about it.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

And this is why Square Enix is better than Blizzard. Accessibility is a very good thing, it means more people will enjoy your content, less toxicity from the playerbase, and more fun all around.

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I dont want to start an this is better than that discussion, but in WoW nothing is locked behind an raid or dungeon. And every raid has 4 difficulty levels, where the easiest one can be done (and i am honest about that) half blind, half (or even full) afk with with one hand at the mouse and the other hand under the table.

In FF14 the mainstory is locked behind.. well you get it.

Super Savage is coming for this reason.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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I actually wasted 5~8 seconds of my life with your sig. damn you

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Originally Posted by Tubben

I dont want to start an this is better than that discussion, but in WoW nothing is locked behind an raid or dungeon. And every raid has 4 difficulty levels, where the easiest one can be done (and i am honest about that) half blind, half (or even full) afk with with one hand at the mouse and the other hand under the table.

In FF14 the mainstory is locked behind.. well you get it.

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Only none of the raids or dungeons are actually that bad. They can be challenging but they're not punishing and anyone can learn them. WoW's early raids suffered from tons of shitty design choices.

Why are people getting into a pissing contest over which is "better"? .__. The OP literally just wanted to know what made the final boss of Mythic Tomb hard, because it wasn't visually apparent from the clear video. The discussion up until now was actually pretty neutral and pleasantly devoid of the typical vitriol Gen Discussion has whenever WoW is mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Only none of the raids or dungeons are actually that bad. They can be challenging but they're not punishing and anyone can learn them. WoW's early raids suffered from tons of shitty design choices.

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Why bring up the original WoW? That's in the past. The current raids and content are very accessible and offer something for both casual players and hardcore ones.

It's not like FF14 was perfect in the beginning, either, else they would of never made ARR.

As for the Mythic KJ is hard, and took awhile No clue. I suspect a lot of had to do the mechanics at that tier of raid, probably a lot of timing issues and peeps not doing there jobs right (or the right combination).

I used to be Mainline raider and the wipes and drama was fun..... For instance I wasn't leveled for MC, but an entire zone was arguing with a know drama king who Ninjaed a valuable knife from Next to last Boss Major Domo (?)[I was paladin so I was a Buff Bot and Healer, when I did start raiding -- ZG -- Vanilla ]
Even In LFR it can be a pain (I do that as its fun and faster), like 6 wipes on Gul'Dan (even with the Echo Style boost) as people Simply where not doing the basic mechanic key eyes, stay out of green stuff....
I just complete Wing 3 of LFR ToS we wiped once on Maiden, once someone explained fight, we destroyed her, Avatar was easy....
(I can do most tiers, I am slowly losing interest there).

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

WoW usually caps the fights with gearchecks (aka artifficial difficulty) so they're unkillable at start on purpose.

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You know what FFXIV raid tier unintentionally had that too and everyone considered it a disaster? :P

Mentality is very different in both games but it's fairly clear that it's the FFXIV community that can't even decide what it wants, until it actually happens and we have to deal with the consequences. Then people magically forget two years after the fact while the devs are still cleaning up the mess as a result.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

You know what FFXIV raid tier unintentionally had that too and everyone considered it a disaster? :P

Mentality is very different in both games but it's fairly clear that it's the FFXIV community that can't even decide what it wants, until it actually happens and we have to deal with the consequences. Then people magically forget two years after the fact while the devs are still cleaning up the mess as a result.

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I mean even beyond the gear check (which in itself is not a bad thing), A3s had a few other design choices that I wouldn't say was good. The overall slow pacing, the non-indicative mechanics which lead to the inevitable party wipe (which only exasperates the former), and just in general (and this is for A4s too) the overtuning. I'm really hard pressed to believe that they designed it without healer dps in mind, even at relative ilvl.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

You know what FFXIV raid tier unintentionally had that too and everyone considered it a disaster? :P

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Gear checks don't work when you only release four bosses. I'm not sure how item progression works in current expansion WoW, but they have 9 bosses there. I'd be fine getting gear checked for a couple of weeks while killing eight other bosses, but having only Oppressor and lolGoblin Horde (both of which are pretty crappy fights) for most groups was the real reason Gordias sucked. Well, that and the complete lack of reward for actually completing raids in FFXIV.

Watch the health bars and the Recount - that is some serious healing output.
Also is that 5 Rogues? That's some serious class stacking which is a huge commitment given the Artifact weapons in this expansion.

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Originally Posted by Deslanthe

As for the Mythic KJ is hard, and took awhile No clue.

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The world first group did an interview a little bit after the first kill - basically it was over-tuned for a while at the "impossible to kill without weeks of gearing" level, according to them (and with how much time and effort they put into figuring these fights out, I believe them). The fight itself went through numerous nerfs before the first kill - one ability had its damage nerfed by a full 50%, other things had their HP reduced by numbers roughly around 8% or 18%, some of the things that spawn had their amount reduced a bit, more time added between abilities would go off in certain phases.

no clue , the boss looks easy because no1 made mistakes , but is the same thing for FFXIV when u see a perfect kill , it looks like meh thats easy , but in the end the mechanics are way harder than it looks , for example A3s , on video is meh , attack boss like nothing , avoid aoes , kill some adds before they hit the outer ring . dont let the knockback push you out or into puddles + / - .....and done.... the reality is WAYYY DIFFERENT

WoW always had interesting boss mechanics and created new ones every other expansion , some bosses are easy as hell , others have really interesting mechanics , some use the old fire , stack , it has too mechanics that force inmunities in order to keep going (tons of jobs there have Hallowed ground skills or 90% dmg reduction or inmunities to some kind of dmg ect)

FFXIV has an issue and that it has tons of instant death or really bad synch mechanics , still HW and SB now is way more cool and has some really interesting mechanics (Omega 3 is a perfect example of that :) ) , wow has more bosses , while FFXIV still have 4 only :/

To put plain and simple it isn't that the mechanics are harder per say, it is the how the fight is tuned. In WoW they actually tune raids properly so that they are supposed to take a while to clear. World 1st groups end up beating fights in way less gear than they were intended to be completed and usually end up class stacking the classes that perform well in that specific fight. If you look back at A4S and A8S you will see insanely large attempt counts as well. The thing is that the last 2 raid tiers have just been tuned terribly so you can literally just walk in and kill the boss with very little optimization and no gear beyond crafted gear. Even crafted gear wasn't needed this time around.