Tank Scaling still a massive issue

320 fending accs look to have 40 str on them, meldable to 65.

This is fine, and with substats the difference is made up from Alexandrian slaying.

The big big problem is this:

340 fending seems to have +42 str. 20 item levels and only a gain of 2.

The issue I raised before where eventually with enough time if nothing is changed we could have dps with 1k, 2k, 3k higher attack power than a tank and it will require constant enmity patching has been delayed by 2 patches tops.

We need to gain the same gain that dps get, just on a lower base value.

If dps accs gain 14 str on a 20 ilvl jump, tank accs need to gain 14 too. By handing dps +14 and tanks +2 for this higher ilvl, eventually you will be back to square one.

A low base for attack power is fine, but for the love of god stop insisting that we get stronger at a slower rate than every other class in the game.we need to get stronger at the same speed as our companions.

Had to double post, no way to edit on phone.

I still dont get why they gave healers their one all around dmg/heal stat, but are so scared to do it with tanks.
Why do we need to try work with 2 "main" stats. While no other role Faces that

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Originally Posted by BlackironTarkus

Had to double post, no way to edit on phone.

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The thing is, tanks are not suppose to output dmg at the same levels of dps ykno?it only makes sense the dps will get more stronger than tanks?


unless you are talking about enmity, which is completely irrelevant, Enmity is not an issue for good tanks, even before this and they rocked full Vit. good tanks dont lose enmity.
This impacts nothing, its a damage gain and an enmity gain, no negatives. even later on in patch cycles, we are still getting buffed by the extra str, no matter how minor. and enmity will continue to be irrelevant.


Especially so in raids where u can coordinate the dps to use there enmity drops.

Plus str still scales normally at a regular pace on the left side main gear for tanks.
So its not like you are recieving 10 str per 20 ilvls.

Hp is as much a main stat to healers and dps as it is a tank. Dps don't actively worry or think about their vit like tanks do but you can bet money that dps hp and healer hp compared to tank hp factor into fight balance heavily.

It's best to keep attack power and hp separate.

The scaling issue is still bad.

You're missing the point.

We can be set to do x% less damage than dps forever and that would be okay. If dps are always 30 % higher then a tank, then that works.

The problem we face here is that dps will start at 30% higher. Then will be 40%. Then 50% higher. Then 60% higher. Eventually and with enough time and gear upgrades dps could be 2x or 3x more dps than a tank and this is a real problem.

Later down the line they will need to constantly buff our threat output to hold aggro against such higher numbers.

My guess is they're just going to keep patching enmity modifiers. That's not the way I think things should be done, but it's SE's game, meh. I've said enough already about what I think about SE's tanking design.

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Originally Posted by BlackironTarkus

You're missing the point.

We can be set to do x% less damage than dps forever and that would be okay. If dps are always 30 % higher then a tank, then that works.

The problem we face here is that dps will start at 30% higher. Then will be 40%. Then 50% higher. Then 60% higher. Eventually and with enough time and gear upgrades dps could be 2x or 3x more dps than a tank and this is a real problem.

Later down the line they will need to constantly buff our threat output to hold aggro against such higher numbers.

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Thats true but thats not all thats retarded. Because the str diff is only 2 between savage and lakshmi, some lakshmi peices could be BiS simply because they have more desirable substats

There's actually no reason to believe we'll scale slower or faster since that's behind the scenes and they can always put more STR on left-side gear or accessories in a future patch to make up the difference if the scaling does become a problem.

The problem is Fending gear is still a crap drop, you feel bad as a static to get such a worthless upgrade. I remember when I was doing Gordias I literally never used any piece of Fending gear that dropped while we were raiding, they were just put in my inventory and forgotten. While that will no longer be the case, why are they insisting on making one slot of gear for just one role so incredibly bad? We should be excited when a tank accessory (any accessory) drops, not disappointed.

Its not a problem if a Tank uses their tanking stance to build aggro before going into DPS stance. I did it fine when first starting out and with my raid group rocked the i270 slaying and pulled in sword. You cant avoid you enimity combo, you trade dmg for extra enimity so be it, DPS is youyr tertiary job as a tank (I am guilty of being a greedy fuck mind you) Ideally each tank should rotate one hate combo after dropping their tank stance after their burst phase. During pull useing 2 hate combos will normally keep you well out of reach of any DPS including Sam. the net loss is minimal overall. Also after the VIT changes in 3.2 keeping hate was harder because the VIT+ STR scaling nerfed out total output by 10% from when we wore full slaying. This is roughly comparable to that but is a straight increase overall.

2 STR difference between i320 and i340 is a sick joke. SE clearly does not understand this issue, at all.

We're inevitably going to get Fending accessories as a drop, and the raid is going to be sorely disappointed. This is THE issue.

Sipherous. You misunderstand.

If this keeps as it is, you will eventually never be able to hold aggro even sitting in tank stance and spamming aggro combo.

For every 10 str we gain on side, dps gain 35. Eventually you can't hold hate to begin with unless se wants to buff our aggro output every other patch.

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Originally Posted by BlackironTarkus

The issue I raised before where eventually with enough time if nothing is changed we could have dps with 1k, 2k, 3k higher attack power than a tank and it will require constant enmity patching has been delayed by 2 patches tops.

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Not necessarily. It's easy to make the gap between tank and DPS higher and higher while still being under the top enmity we can generate.
Between all the enmity bonuses, it's easy for tanks to generate at least three times the enmity of their damage. So, if we have 2k AP and the DPS have 5k, they'll indeed have 3k more than us, but, we'll still generate enmity "as if" we had 6k AP.

What we'll see with this scaling is more and more tank stance required just to keep enmity...which is probably one the reason they changed accessories.

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Originally Posted by BlackironTarkus

For every 10 str we gain on side, dps gain 35. Eventually you can't hold hate to begin with unless se wants to buff our aggro output every other patch.

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Did you take materia melding into account ? And remember that for each STR point we gain on the left side, DPS only gain 1 STR too.

This is true but all this does is drive tanks away. It's fun to feel like you can contribute to fights and tank. But when you see your % of damage done consistently dropping every single gear upgrade it becomes demoralizing. Yeah you went up +10 dps and some hp. The dps just shot up another 200 dps this same tier and your performance starts to matter less and less and less.

Tanks should be more then a convenient meatshield that makes mobs look at them instead of you.

Static increases do not change scaling, only delay it. The difference doesn't matter now. But it will. All 6 pieces of left side increase the same, but on right side there's a scaling difference. I'll make some graphs later when I get home to better illustrate this but what it boils down to right now is that flat numbers look good and minimize the look of a problem, but the do accessories get slightly better than tank ones every patch. Then slightly better again. Then slightly better again.

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Originally Posted by BlackironTarkus

The dps just shot up another 200 dps this same tier and your performance starts to matter less and less and less.

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I still don't understand that. Are DPS demoralized when they see our defense skyrocket ? Are they demoralized by seeing the gap in HP increase more and more ?

And no, your performance still matters a lot, because if you don't know how to properly do your rotation, you'll risk losing aggro and killing all the raid, or building too much enmity and crippling your damage output...and you're still the one holding the boss so that it doesn't curb-stomp every paper-DPS in seconds. How is that "not contributing" ?

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Originally Posted by BlackironTarkus

Then slightly better again. Then slightly better again.

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Enmity wise, our left side will be slighty better then theirs. Then slightly better again. Then slightly better again...

By no stretch of the imagination will DPS accessories provide 1k, 2k, or 3k attack power over a tank during this patch cycle.

When dps start doing 2x or 3x of a tank the tank maximizing damage doesn't matter in the slightest.

It will be the tanks job to survive Busters and spam aggro combo.

Right now a tank maximizing is very noticeable because we're only 30 percent behind and its a good spot to be in. Eventually dps will be doing 6 to 8k dps each and tanks will still be sitting at 3k. Suddenly the diff between a top 10 tank and a middle of the road one is smaller and smaller as time passes until you can get 1 percent more damage by having said top 10 play tank or 10 percent more raid damage by having same player play a dps.

You start to put your worst players in the tank role because learning CDs and standing where they're told to stand is easy

All of this gets worse the more time passes that we only increase in output at a fraction of the rate a dps does.

Also our enmity is tied to oour attack power. I have no idea how you got the idea that our enmity scales faster than dps damage output when it's not the case.

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Originally Posted by BlackironTarkus

Right now a tank maximizing is very noticeable because we're only 30 percent behind and its a good spot to be in. Eventually dps will be doing 6 to 8k dps each and tanks will still be sitting at 3k.

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And if you do only 2.5k because you can't properly manage enmity and damage, people will still say it's your fault if the party failed a DPS check, don't worry ;)

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Originally Posted by BlackironTarkus

Also our enmity is tied to our attack power. I have no idea how you got the idea that our enmity scales faster than dps damage output when it's not the case.

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Our enmity is also tied to our modifiers. Every time our damage increase, our enmity increase at least threefold. So, enmity wise, we gain more from the lest side than DPS do.

Eventually enmity and CDs will be all that matters on a tank when every set of gear that comes out lowers the relative contribution a tank makes to the fight. If everyone goes up by 10 percent but one role went up by 1 percent, yes they did more damage than before but less of the total damage contribution they made before.

I have no issues doing good dps and tanking atm and will continue to do so this savage set but eventually a tank maximizing will be of very very little relevance.

What I don't get is why you are so vehemently against the idea that everyone should get better at the same rate. I'm not advocating to do the same damage as a dps. I am advocating that we stay a permanent x% behind dps, not continually falling behind further and further.

Actually, I would have liked to get FULL STR on our accessories, then set our attack power to like 0.9x STR. If you compare STR DPS (DRG/MNK/SAM) to STR Tanks with the new acc and +25 STR materia melded, tank STR is roughly 90% of DPS STR.

So, why not this, we would have even been able to meld secondary stats in our acc :'(

But no, we still HAVE to meld STR - a PRIMARY STAT - as the ONLY role in this whole game!

As a Black Mage, I wish I could meld more Intelligence onto my accessories.

It'll be funny when Fell Cleave/Bloodspiller/Holy Spirit does less then any DPS's or healers first attack action.

Ofcourse for that to happen it'll be many expansion cycles away of no changes to the formula. But it's a pretty sad yet amusing prospect with these changes.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

It'll be funny when Fell Cleave/Bloodspiller/Holy Spirit does less then any DPS's or healers first attack action.

Ofcourse for that to happen it'll be many expansion cycles away of no changes to the formula. But it's a pretty sad yet amusing prospect with these changes.

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Thank you for understanding! This isn't a problem for now. It won't be a problem for a while. But it's looming, and the effects it has on those who okay the role can be felt right now.

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Originally Posted by BlackironTarkus

What I don't get is why you are so vehemently against the idea that everyone should get better at the same rate. I'm not advocating to do the same damage as a dps. I am advocating that we stay a permanent x% behind dps, not continually falling behind further and further.

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I'm not against the idea of being better at the same rate, I'm against the doomsayer that say we're screwed.

Besides, I don't know the exact formula, but my guess would be that gaining 30% at 3000DPS requires much more STR than gaining 30% at 1000 DPS. Will we really fall further and further on a percentage base ?

On a sidenote, main stat is not the only thing that dicates damage. Our potencies are comparable to most DPS potencies, and our weapon damage is exactly the same.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

As a Black Mage, I wish I could meld more Intelligence onto my accessories.

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in this since, you would be able to, but youd only have like 20 int on each piece antwat so youd have to.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I'm not against the idea of being better at the same rate, I'm against the doomsayer that say we're screwed.

Besides, I don't know the exact formula, but my guess would be that gaining 30% at 3000DPS requires much more STR than gaining 30% at 1000 DPS. Will we really fall further and further on a percentage base ?

On a sidenote, main stat is not the only thing that dicates damage. Our potencies are comparable to most DPS potencies, and our weapon damage is exactly the same.

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10 more strength per 20 ilevels on right side, i dunno how much more dps get, what is it like 14 more every 20 ilevers per piece?

Little calculation :

If you take a full set of i270 gear, a DRG would have 1307 STR (189 for weapon, 104 for head, hands and feet, 169 for body and legs, and 78 for every accessory). For the same ilevel, with vit acc melded with STR V, a PLD would have 992 STR, so, around 75%.

If you make the same calculation at i340, the DRG will have 2158 STR, while the PLD will have 1848 (If you can meld STR VI on Vit acc), so, 85%

So, infact, the AP ratio has decreased.

NB : If you ignore STR meld at all, the ratio would have shifted from 70% to 79%

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Little calculation :

If you take a full set of i270 gear, a DRG would have 1307 STR (189 for weapon, 104 for head, hands and feet, 169 for body and legs, and 78 for every accessory). For the same ilevel, with vit acc melded with STR V, a PLD would have 992 STR, so, around 75%.

If you make the same calculation at i340, the DRG will have 2158 STR, while the PLD will have 1848 (If you can meld STR VI on Vit acc), so, 85%

So, infact, the AP ratio has decreased.
NB : If you ignore STR meld at all, the ratio would have shifted from 70% to 79%

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This is because of the nice hefty "flat" +40 STR boost on 5 pieces giving us +200 attack power right now. This is the flat bonus I was talking about. From this point onwards, DPS will gain more and more attack power above tanks in increasing %'s.

Right now we have 1848 and the DRG has 2158. If we get another +2 per item at i360 and they get another +14 per item at i360k, and everything else increases by the same way it always has, the Dragoon will be a net 50 attack power ahead of the PLD in terms of overall gains.

The next set, if it stays the same, will increase the difference in gains to 100. Again, assuming all other gear increases in stats as they always have.

The set after that, the difference in gains will increase to 150. Then 200, then 250, then 300, so on so forth.

This scaling increase they get over tanks, and the fact that DPS can more efficiently convert Attack Power into Damage via Potency Per Second, starts out slow but adds up over time.

It's not going to a be a problem now. It won't be a problem in 4.1, or 4.2, or even 4.3 or 4.4. Maybe it won't even be a problem when 5.0 launches. But if SE's policy on how how tanks scale compared to the scaling of every other class doesn't change, we will run into the "I'm in Grit/ShO/Defiance, and spamming Aggro, and I'm losing hate!" issue.

To fix it and keep us scaling lower, they will have to continually patch in random huge stat jumps in our accessories (Like another +40 STR to all accessories at some random point for a 10 ilvl jump), or continually increase the multiplier we get to threat from increased threat abilities and our stances.

I want to get this issue raised and fixed now, because it takes SE forever to actually take action on these things. If I recall correctly, SE stated themselves they knew parry was bad as early as 3.1 or 3.2, and told us to look to 3.4 for a possible time frame. It wasn't until SB launched that anything actually happened.

We need to raise the issue now for any chance of curbing it before it becomes a massive must-be-put-out fire. It's a super slow burning problem, but a significant one.

The same thing is happening with our health pools. We will continue to get more and more hp at a faster rate than the other classes, and tuning raidwide damage to threaten us will only hurt the other classes.

It would be best for everyone if tanks were always +XX% more HP than a DPS, and -XX% lower damage than a DPS, relative to eachother. That way both raid and solo content and everything inbetween can be sensibly adjusted for a reasonable difficulty curve for all roles instead of eventually having to tailor-balance everything on a per-role basis.

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Originally Posted by BlackironTarkus

It would be best for everyone if tanks were always +XX% more HP than a DPS, and -XX% lower damage than a DPS, relative to eachother. That way both raid and solo content and everything inbetween can be sensibly adjusted for a reasonable difficulty curve for all roles instead of eventually having to tailor-balance everything on a per-role basis.

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Yoyally what Ive been arguing about the whole time! Agree! just that..I have a sad feeling 5.0 will bring another tank dump/overhaul. Like say they come up with a new caster tank thats been requested "owps we gonna scale tank AP with VIT now, we sowwy"''

But esides that 1 case, personally itd just be easier for them to scale it like you mentioned, never have to worry about enmity buffing, theyd have a hell of an easier time scaling future content, and tanks would progress just like every other job doesb

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Originally Posted by BlackironTarkus

Again, assuming all other gear increases in stats as they always have.

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Between i270 and i340, STR has increased by :
+0.00294118/ilvl on a weapon
+0.00172425/ilvl on head/hands/feet
+0.00282291/ilvl on body and legs
+0.00129318/ilvl on waist and accessories
For VIT accessories, it's a little different, but checking i320, i330 and i340, STR has increased by :
-0,0000735/ilvl on VIT accessories (So, in fact, the ratio is decreasing)

I used those numbers to imagine what stats would be at ilvl 410, 480, 550, 620 and 690, starting from the i340 values if the stats increase at the same rate. With these calculation, I ended, at ilvl690, at 9572 STR for DRG and 7037 STR for PLD (Without any STR meld), so a ratio of 73%.

Stats will probably change before we reach such a high ilvl (If we ever), but, with this ratio, tanks are still far from being outmatched in enmity.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Between i270 and i340, STR has increased by :
+0.00294118/ilvl on a weapon
+0.00172425/ilvl on head/hands/feet
+0.00282291/ilvl on body and legs
+0.00129318/ilvl on waist and accessories
For VIT accessories, it's a little different, but checking i320, i330 and i330, STR has increased by :
-0,0000735/ilvl on VIT accessories (So, in fact, the ratio is decreasing)

I used those numbers to imagine what stats would be at ilvl 410, 480, 550, 620 and 690, starting from the i340 values if the stats increase at the same rate. With these calculation, I ended, at ilvl690, at 9572 STR for DRG and 7037 STR for PLD (Without any STR meld), so a ratio of 73%.

Stats will probably change before we reach such a high ilvl (If we ever), but, with this ratio, tanks are still far from being outmatched in enmity.

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but how many hp do tanks have at 680?

You have to factor in the fact that dps classes are far more efficient with their potency per second, being able to turn their increased attack power into even further increased dps better than tanks can turn attack power into dps. This adds a slight but present multiplier to the speed at which the differences will increase. Again, it's slow burning, but it is a problem.

Additionally as has been stated, having such low scaling can make i320 choices best in slot over i340, maybe even up to i380+ over more efficient secondary stats alone. It's not hard to beat out 2, 4, or even 6 or maybe 8 str depending on what secondaries you are trading.

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Originally Posted by BlackironTarkus

You have to factor in the fact that dps classes are far more efficient with their potency per second, being able to turn their increased attack power into even further increased dps better than tanks can turn attack power into dps.

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Yes, but they're not more efficient at turning AP into damage as tanks are at turning AP into enmity. And again, we've only looked at the AP ratio. Keep in mind that weapon damage is the same between all jobs, and has a (comparatively) greater impact than AP.

A little reminder. People justify the scaling problem by using the recent enmity boost patch as proof. Keep in mind that the only enmity that was increased was for low-level skills, for tanks that don't have their tank stance yet. With the tank stance, there isn't any real issue with enmity unless you overneglect your enmity combo.

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Originally Posted by BlackironTarkus

Additionally as has been stated, having such low scaling can make i320 choices best in slot over i340, maybe even up to i380+ over more efficient secondary stats alone. It's not hard to beat out 2, 4, or even 6 or maybe 8 str depending on what secondaries you are trading.

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It has happened before. Remember the i120 CT body compared to the i130 Poetic body and its wonderful Accuracy/Parry secondaries...
All and all, it's a nice touch that ilvl is not the only thing that matters, as long as it's not a blatant overlook like i270 STR vs i320 VIT acc.

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Originally Posted by BlackironTarkus

If dps accs gain 14 str on a 20 ilvl jump, tank accs need to gain 14 too. By handing dps +14 and tanks +2 for this higher ilvl, eventually you will be back to square one.

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Dps i320 to i340 upgrade is +208 main stat, roughly a 9.0% increase in damage (not factoring secondaries)
Tank i320 to i340 upgrade is +141 STR, roughly a 7.4% increase in damage (not factoring secondaries)

The gap is there, but it's not so massive that a major correction is going to be needed before the next expansion.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Dps i320 to i340 upgrade is +208 main stat, roughly a 9.0% increase in damage (not factoring secondaries)
Tank i320 to i340 upgrade is +141 STR, roughly a 7.4% increase in damage (not factoring secondaries)

The gap is there, but it's not so massive that a major correction is going to be needed before the next expansion.

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You are correct, but with how long se takes to change things I'd like to raise the issue now before it becomes a problem. Even if slight, every set of gear we get like this will see our damage go up slightly but overall contribution to the raid go down slightly. Over enough time it'll feel pretty bad.

SE seems to take every chance they get to lower tank damage. I am not surprised by anything at this point.

Maybe VIT or the new Tenacity substat could be made to have a minor effect on enmity gain to offset the "tank scaling" issue?