Please nerf RDM!

This job has far too much utility for the dps it's capable of! Please do the sensible thing and take a bat to RDM, while giving SMN/BLM their own buffs! Embolden is too damn good!

Usually I think instead of nerfing a job, they should just make all the other jobs as good as this one. But in RDM's case, it's supposed to be a JACK of all trades, not a king of DPS. I say hit them with the nerf bat, -30 potency on Jolts and Verthunder/aero/fire/stone. That's like a 10% potency decrease overall, which should put them where they should be, around SMN and below melee DPS.

As if the other 20+ threads on the subject weren't enough? Someone needs attention.

No. It is fine as is.

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Originally Posted by mrln

Usually I think instead of nerfing a job, they should just make all the other jobs as good as this one.

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Eh I disagree with this sentiment. Nerfs are just another lever to use in the balancing act. Some people take it as a personal attack against their fun when in truth it doesn't matter the method of attaining a more balanced system- just that things are more in line. All one directional balance changes do is force SE to alter all content instead of a class.

Careful, you might agro all of the players from the religion of RDM who will tell you that RDM is fine being 2nd best DPS while being super forgiving to play, giving decent offensive utility and having some life saver moves!

It can keep the utility, the forgiving play style and the life saver utility, but it should be like 4 places lower on the DPS chart than it currently is. If you reckon SE will overhaul the other dps in such a way that this will be achieved, then more power to you but what looks more feasible: Fixing 8 other classes or 1 class?

This goes both ways: for MCH, do you think they would nerf 8 other classes to make it balanced this way? There is nothing saying they can't meet in the middle but meeting in the middle means that something is gonna improve, and something is gonna take a hit. NIN probably needs more adjusting than RDM but IMO they both are too good.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

As if the other 20+ threads on the subject weren't enough? Someone needs attention.

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The sentiment being visible in two really big and not entirely related threads is not the same as a dedicated thread asking for this simple and efficient fix. :o

Embolden is a maximum of .75% raid DPS increase with a "meta" comp. Sit down. It is not "too good".

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

The sentiment being visible in two really big and not entirely related threads is not the same as a dedicated thread asking for this simple and efficient fix. :o

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It's not really an efficient fix. The more sensible approach is to wait and see how the jobs respond to a more robust content sample. Right now, the current content is rather movement heavy. Meaning BLM doesn't perform in it as well, and RDM can sustain DPS. In every dummy test that I've seen, RDM is pretty much in the middle of the road. Exactly where it needs to be. If they were to nerf the damage of RDM, it would only end up hurting it in content with less movement. They need to work on BLM instead. Either give it more mobility, or a damage increase. But again, after waiting to see what other content has in store.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

This job has far too much utility for the dps it's!

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Please SE leave rdm alone

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Originally Posted by TarynH

As if the other 20+ threads on the subject weren't enough? Someone needs attention.

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Kinda obvious when their sig says they're here to giggle.

how about we keep rdm where it is and buff other classes so we are all happy? O.o

I don't think nerfing RDM is going to fix BLM having a difficult time doing anything when they have to jog across the map every 2 seconds. That and well, knocking RDM down below all the melee classes because it has utility will just mean it's not going to get used in raids. People aren't exactly lining up to have Dragoons in their groups for their current mediocre dps and amazing utility. We don't need to be top dps, but we still need to be viable.

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Originally Posted by Ketsufuma

how about we keep rdm where it is and buff other classes so we are all happy? O.o

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Power creep. If SE only balance by buffing, the content ends up undertuned. And that's the worst possible outcome because undertuned content sucks for everybody.

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Originally Posted by angienessyo

I don't think nerfing RDM is going to fix BLM having a difficult time doing anything when they have to jog across the map every 2 seconds.

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RDM will always remains viable, if not mandatory, due to how Embolden works, being a 6% rDPS increase. The massive dps they have currently guarantees them a raid slot. What BLM/SMN need to be is viable, necessitating nerfs to either Embolden or their personal deeps. Right now they offer utility that surpasses even BRD while doing several hundred more dps than them.

Love these arguments (sarcasm) because both sides have such strong emotions about their point of views to the point they will not listen to the other side because they will consider them "whinners" or "white-knights" or something similar. In the end it goes no where and everyone thinks their view on the matter is right and everyone else who doesn't believe as they do is wrong. Threads like these quickly devolve into slugfests of emotions that trolls enjoy and giggle about as each side tries to argue their points, but will not consider any counter points the other side offers. Both arguments will also lose all factual information and turn quickly to oppinions at best because in the end that is all anyone has.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

RDM will always remains viable, if not mandatory, due to how Embolden works, being a 6% rDPS increase. The massive dps they have currently guarantees them a raid slot. What BLM/SMN need to be is viable, necessitating nerfs to either Embolden or their personal deeps. Right now they offer utility that surpasses even BRD while doing several hundred more dps than them.

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I think you're confused. Embolden has 1/6 uptime, and gives 10% bonus to most of their damage, and 10% of only physical dps of those around them. And that's only for 4 seconds, it goes down to 8 then 6, 4, 2, 0. So the average is 6%, and even if that boosted everyone's dps (it doesn't), that'd be 6% x 16% uptime so .96% increase. It's less significant than trick attack. It's under 1% difference not counting that it doesn't boost healer dps or another caster's.

If anything that's such a weird distinction for them to have that it should be made to affect all damage; being punished for having another caster is obtuse.

The rdm hate on these forums is way to strong. It has raise like summer and a damage buff so let's Nerf it makes zero sense

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

The rdm hate on these forums is way to strong. It has raise like summer and a damage buff so let's Nerf it makes zero sense

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There's a teeeeensy bit more to it than that.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

There's a teeeeensy bit more to it than that.

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not really it does good damage to and it can heal so what most of the time I use vercure on myself, it can do multiple raises at the expense of losing major damage, all they need to do is buff blm and call it a day stop nerfing stuff it ruins the game when they do all these changes to classes

Nerf, Buff its all the same. RDM should not remain where it is.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

not really it does good damage to and it can heal so what most of the time I use vercure on myself, it can do multiple raises at the expense of losing major damage, all they need to do is buff blm and call it a day stop nerfing stuff it ruins the game when they do all these changes to classes

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It does really good damage at no expense, mobility that's second only to BRD/MCH, can raise multiple team mates faster than the healers + it outpaces Summoners quickcast rez and has the incredibly powerful Embolden just to kick BLM/SMN in the teeth for good measure. Naturally I don't believe that listing off a classes strengths is a good way to make a point- but I take exception to this in that I can't think of a weakness.

Plus you really need to rethink your stance on "never nerf" because that is terrrible design philosophy. Balance in dynamic- and when you only allow the use of buffing to attempt to achieve something as complicated and difficult as balance then you're going to have immensely under tuned content. Then they're have to individually buff each bit of content to compensate for this ever growing mass of buffage that is the collective of classes which ironically would probably be a lot more work in the short/mid and long term.

RDM is powerful, content isn't hard enough to warrant how strong it is so why would you want to trivialize content by only buffing when you can pull back numbers too?

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

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Because you can't read I'll say it again, like other people have said, embolden is not that powerful, it is only at max .75% rDPS increase. If you want to give RDM a weakness just make its raise cost 50-100% more. There, now its utility actually costs something because you can't just spam raises. Or make it so DC doesn't work with it. Gain some perspective.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

not really it does good damage to and it can heal so what most of the time I use vercure on myself, it can do multiple raises at the expense of losing major damage, all they need to do is buff blm and call it a day stop nerfing stuff it ruins the game when they do all these changes to classes

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I feel like I'm talking to a child on this, but that's really not how game design works. In a situation where you buff everyone and everyone wins, the content itself becomes trivial and retention rate drops. This has happened before, with countless other games. Power creep is inevitable, but by limiting its encroachment, you can delay its effects. Your mentality of "NOOOOO DONT NERF MY CLASS" strikes me as rather selfish and unacquainted with the design of game balance.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Because you can't read I'll say it again,

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Look at you go. All that sass to prove a point? Good for you, Buddy.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

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In case you didn't notice, RDM's strengths are it's damage coupled with its mobility and it's non reliance on working around fight invulnerability moments- Embolden as strong as it is and better than healer raises is still just a giant cherry on this cake.

Gain some objectivity. Lose some mobility or lose some damage to bring you in line.
Nobody liked their class getting nerfed, everybody likes a balanced game.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Look at you go. All that sass to prove a point? Good for you, Buddy.

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This same person called someone else out just earlier today for being condescending. LOL, funny how that works, isn't it?

Ya tbh I'd rather they buff other classes than nerf.....except Ninja, seriously nerf TA pls.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

This same person called someone else out just earlier today for being condescending. LOL, funny how that works, isn't it?

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Psst it was me, but I don't disagree I was intentionally condescending as I'm tired of people being zealots for their class. Honestly calm down, the class isn't getting removed from the game and it will never be nerfed to the point that it is literally unplayable. Losing 7% of your damage (this is a bit much imo) wont make the class any harder to play or any less well designed. Nor will making every other class 7% stronger than it.

I apologize for my rancor. I'm simply getting exasperated with all these non casters coming here and offering up their "objective" opinions on what needs to fixed.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

I feel like I'm talking to a child on this, but that's really not how game design works. In a situation where you buff everyone and everyone wins, the content itself becomes trivial and retention rate drops. This has happened before, with countless other games. Power creep is inevitable, but by limiting its encroachment, you can delay its effects. Your mentality of "NOOOOO DONT NERF MY CLASS" strikes me as rather selfish and unacquainted with the design of game balance.

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The fact is its eight slots if we talkin about raids we have 15 jobs , if you want to follow some midmax group for raids then thats on you. But if you just want to raid and have fun with your jobs what does it matter, numbers only matter if you can see them if your parsing.

Otherwise you dont know whos doing what damage, its no need to mess up a new job for five percent of the player base anyway. SE from the year I have been playin this game doesnt know how to balance and it will never be a situation where every comp will work so again why nerf them. The only time it matters is if you are mid maxing or something, Im not about that life but if you are thats cool , but if you not worried about a meta or something of the sorts I really dont see why it matters if a job is a bit better than the other.


@Yorumi

How are you gona be put out of a job, there is no spot for any job its those whom follow a meta set up by top tier raiders and 8 slots that must be filled by 15 different jobs. You either play what you want and worry about yourself and your friends are you seek balance thats impossible to have how can every job have a spot in a meta where only 8 players can participate? IF blms in then rdm out, if smn in then blm out , like thats how it works just like whm was out, palidan was out in hw so I dont get what you guys mean by balance and losing a job. Play what you want and stop worring about all the small stuff. Its impossible to have balance in this game , to where everyjob would fit in a meta its not gona happen so why do people think taking a nerf gun to everything is the solution.

People's reactions are always interesting to me because I think they betray a lot about their motives that they try to hide. Why such a strong reaction to some theoretical potency reductions? Lets say hypothetically rdm lost a tiny bit of potency on it's attacks that brought it's dps slightly lower than blm to the point that embolden's raid dps would make up the difference. Would rdm suddenly not be fun? Is the only thing that makes rdm appealing in people's eyes the fact that it's OP and puts other classes out of a job? A class isn't fun when it's out of a job but no one is actually asking for that, and you can put a class out of a job with buffs to other classes just as easily as you can with nerfs so why all the fierce screaming about it?

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Originally Posted by Sephorai

Holy shit so much crying from people who just need to get good. Jesus dude yeah RDM has it easier but BLM and SMN do more damage they just need to learn the fight. This has ALWAYS been the case.

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Take a look at logs and you'll see that this couldn't be further from the truth. Even the best BLM's and SMN get outdamaged by the best RDM, and that's not a "l2play" moment.

And nobody is saying nerf RDM because it's easy, they're saying nerf RDM because it never loses momentum on its high damage output due to it's mobility.

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Originally Posted by Sephorai

so much crying from people who just need to get good. dude yeah RDM has it easier but BLM and SMN do more damage they just need to learn the fight. This has ALWAYS been the case.

Also just from a game design standpoint it's really dumb to make the "easy" classes weak just because they're easy. Not everyone wants to play hard classes and you shouldn't be punishing your player base for not wanting to play harder classes.

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Blizzard believes in this too. It's been great for class balance. Why bring a Feral Druid to a fight that is harder to play and bottom of the meters when I can be a 123 Demon hunter and top of the meters? Want to be invited as a Feral to content? Good luck . All classes across the board should either be as simple to play as red mage or be adjusted based on their utility and level of complexity.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Take a look at logs and you'll see that this couldn't be further from the truth. Even the best BLM's and SMN get outdamaged by the best RDM, and that's not a "l2play" moment.

And nobody is saying nerf RDM because it's easy, they're saying nerf RDM because it never loses momentum on its high damage output due to it's mobility.

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I wouldn't say nobody, less people perhaps but a sizeable portion.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

I wouldn't say nobody, less people perhaps but a sizeable portion.

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I'll hand you that one, poor choice of words.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

I wouldn't say nobody, less people perhaps but a sizeable portion.

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I think you're projecting. BLM has a simple rotation. Hell, at its core, MCH has a simple rotation. The problem isn't the difficulty or complexity of the skills. It's the fact that RDM has the benefit of having lots of positives and no true negatives. If BLM has to move, their simple rotation gets mucked up and they lose DPS. If a MCH mishandles their heat, their simple rotation is so weak and it's a struggle just to get back to decent levels. RDM has mobility and nothing to really screw up, as their gauge builds to a burst damage combo that doesn't go away if it's mistimed. Alongside the amazong utility they already bring to the table.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

I'll hand you that one, poor choice of words.

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As far as mobility goes, if they raised Jolt, Verfire/stone to the normal base cast time (2.5 seconds as opposed to 2). They'd be a tad more vulnerable to mechanics, at least on the same space as SMN for example, although with the notable difference that'd it'd be similar to if a SMN always chained Ruin 2 right after Ruin. Tbh a minor potency nerf (20-30 range, maybe 40) alongside damage buffs to the underperforming classes seems reasonable, as I said before it's tiring arguing with people who conclude that the only option is nerfing RDM and not going the buff/damage tweak route first, usually espousing the "Content will be too easy" line as if SE is just going to ignore the fact that content would need to be retuned.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

as I said before it's tiring arguing with people who conclude that the only option is nerfing RDM and not going the buff/damage tweak route first, usually espousing the "Content will be too easy" line as if SE is just going to ignore the fact that content would need to be retuned.

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Only buffing would result in content being under tuned and needing to be changed on that front which would probably be more of a beast to tackle than the center of balance being the classes instead of the content.

And damage tweaks are nerfs potentially- which is being called for. You can tweak damage down.

Balance is dynamic- you can "tweak" RDM downwards and "tweak" SMN/BLM upwards, but straight up just flat buffing BLM/SMN would be a nuisance overall for game balance- not class balance.

Nerf is not synonymous with being shit kicked out of relevance.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

As far as mobility goes, if they raised Jolt, Verfire/stone to the normal base cast time (2.5 seconds as opposed to 2). They'd be a tad more vulnerable to mechanics, at least on the same space as SMN for example, although with the notable difference that'd it'd be similar to if a SMN always chained Ruin 2 right after Ruin. Tbh a minor potency nerf (20-30 range, maybe 40) alongside damage buffs to the underperforming classes seems reasonable, as I said before it's tiring arguing with people who conclude that the only option is nerfing RDM and not going the buff/damage tweak route first, usually espousing the "Content will be too easy" line as if SE is just going to ignore the fact that content would need to be retuned.

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I don't mind being nerfed as a RDM, if it happens, so long as it's in damage, not playability. Increased cast times on dualcast fodder would be bad. Increased MP costs would be bad. Decreased utility from a nerf to verraise/vercure/embolden would be really sad.

I feel like RDM should play middle of the pack kid, but because BLM offers so little utility, It's going to become the Sam of casters.

Ideally, as a rdm main:

BLM would be top AoE, Worst Single target [Loud autistic screaming]
RDM second Aoe, RDM second Single target
Smn worst Aoe, SMN highest single target.

In reality though based on the utility RDM brings and the already very strong skills, BLM and SMN possess, It should be something like:

BLM, Highest Single Target, Middle Aoe, No special utility
SMN, Middle Single Target, Best Aoe, Brings utility
RDM, Lowest Single Target, Lowest AOE, Brings best utility.

If they do something like this, I would want buffs to our utility to balance the damage between classes. Embolden up probably, but I'd take a 400-450 potency Vercure any day. ;]

Starting to get annoyed by the peopel begging for RDM to get nerfed. RDM is fine. It's the other casters that are underperforming.

Keep in mind, both healing & ressing pretty much stops you frm doing damage. So it's a choice you have to make. Also Ressing costs a lot of mana which RDM can't keep up if you have to res regularly.

Which leaves... Embolden... which is good but not "that" good as a raid utility compared to some of the other classes.

What SE should do instead is buff BLM & SMN.