Why penalities to change stances?

Why all tanks should have this penalty? I can't really understand it.
Is it a DPS concern?
Is there a concrete reason for this?

Edit lol
Correct to stance not instance lol

It's not just for tanks.

But yes, after waiting for a long time to fill a party, it would be frustrating to sit in the instance waiting for it to refill if the tank said "Nah".

Tanks who join and just say nah deserve far worse than the current punishment. On my healer earlier today, tank left instantly for expert roulette. Had to leave the dungeon and reque as in progress tank just to start the place.

Tank queues are so short that without the penalties, many would probably jump in and out of duties until they got some DPS that could do decent aoe, leaving a lot of groups tankless.

rofl... everyone reading only the title and thinking you're being dense :p

To answer your ACTUAL question, I don't know why they did that. I would guess to discourage stance swapping for extra DPS, since they seem to be trying to encourage tanks to go into tank stance and stay there and not do extra DPS - but here's the thing, not all tanks do. DRK can stance swap without penalty, it doesn't make any sense WAR and PLD do get penalised -- When WAR especially has some combos that REQUIRE the DPS stance and it makes even less sense DRK do not have this penalty when DRK is crazy squishy outside their tank stance, but might be tempted to swap to activate blood weapon ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Squeenix moves in mysterious ways.

Actually it's only Warriors who really have a penalty. Dark Knights get NO penalty switching out of their tank stances. And Paladin stance swaps have no effect on their overall damage - just a temporary setback to their utility.

The only job that really suffers from this are Warriors. As for why they did it, yeah... it probably IS to encourage people to stay in tank stance while they're tanking. The people in charge of this change were probably healers who got fed up of having to take care of Warriors in Deliverance, so they decided to screw the job over and make sure this doesn't happen as often.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

Actually it's only Warriors who really have a penalty. Dark Knights get NO penalty switching out of their tank stances. And Paladin stance swaps have no effect on their overall damage - just a temporary setback to their utility.

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I don't understand this new mentality that has cropped up. How is losing mana and a GCD literally "NO penalty"? If you wanna debate bigger/smaller penalties whatever... "NO penalty"? Come now. Hyperbole doesn't help anyone.

In 3.x literally nobody ever said that PLD or DRK had "no penalty" for changing stances, and if you did, people would have laughed your own ass off for you. That same penalty is still present.

DRK loses a ton of mana, a GCD, and Blood Weapon turning Grit on. PLD loses a GCD and mana both ways. These are huge penalties, not "no penalty".

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

Actually it's only Warriors who really have a penalty. Dark Knights get NO penalty switching out of their tank stances. And Paladin stance swaps have no effect on their overall damage - just a temporary setback to their utility.

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Um, that's not true at all? PLD loses 250 potency every time they chance stances because it's on the GCD.

DRK gets no penalty turning it off, which I do think is weird, but they get a massive penalty turning it on. The MP+GCD is over 400 potency lost. I think this is bad design tbh, it discourages the use of tank stance because it's free to turn off and so expensive to turn on. If nothing else, it accomplishes the opposite of what SE seems to have wanted in 4.0. IMO if they want people to use tank stance, the penalty to turn on tank stance should be equal or less than the penalty to turn on DPS stance.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

I don't understand this new mentality that has cropped up. How is losing mana and a GCD literally "NO penalty"? If you wanna debate bigger/smaller penalties whatever... "NO penalty"? Come now. Hyperbole doesn't help anyone.

In 3.x literally nobody ever said that PLD or DRK had "no penalty" for changing stances, and if you did, people would have laughed your own ass off for you. That same penalty is still present.

DRK loses a ton of mana, a GCD, and Blood Weapon turning Grit on. PLD loses a GCD and mana both ways. These are huge penalties, not "no penalty".

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Is 864 mana half your mana bar at 70? If not its not nearly enough.

Huge would be losing 50 percent of your only meaningful resource on each switch and having your heals gated behind one stance and dps abilities gated behind the other.

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Originally Posted by P4X0R10N

Is 864 mana half your mana bar at 70? If not its not nearly enough.

Huge would be losing 50 percent of your only meaningful resource on each switch and having your heals gated behind one stance and dps abilities gated behind the other.

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Um, is your strategy just whining and whining and hoping nobody will notice everything you say is wrong?

DRK lose 1800 MP+400 from missing a GCD at level 70. That's 2200, not 864. The cost for turning on Grit is substantially higher than losing half your gauge going into Defiance even if you have 100 gauge.

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Originally Posted by P4X0R10N

Is 864 mana half your mana bar at 70? If not its not nearly enough.

Huge would be losing 50 percent of your only meaningful resource on each switch and having your heals gated behind one stance and dps abilities gated behind the other.

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Uh.... at level 61, the cost of a DRK toggling Grit on is 1347 MP... there's no way at 70 it's less than that. Darkside should always be on, and there's no need to toggle it on or off anymore since they removed the MP drain.

Maybe this is in reference to PLD's Oaths, but DRKs do lose a bit by toggling Grit back on. 400 more MP at 61 is the cost of a Dark Arts+Souleater, so a 420 potency attack plus the MP drain.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

Um, is your strategy just whining and whining and hoping nobody will notice everything you say is wrong?

DRK lose 1800 MP+400 from missing a GCD at level 70. That's 2200, not 864

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I was referring to paladin. And why are you mad? And is 2200 50 percent of your mana bar? If not, that's not nearly enough either. And drk lose mana on turning on grit only no? So if war did the same, it'd cost like 75 percent of the beast gauge. So is 2200 mana 75 percent of mana bar?

If not, I suggest it be tuned upwards so darks can experience the fun that wars have everytime we switch stances. Cuz it's more fun to lose a percentage and not a flat cost. More engaging some would say.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Uh.... at level 61, the cost of a DRK toggling Grit on is 1347 MP... there's no way at 70 it's less than that. Darkside should always be on, and there's no need to toggle it on or off anymore since they removed the MP drain.

Maybe this is in reference to PLD's Oaths, but DRKs do lose a bit by toggling Grit back on. 400 more MP at 61 is the cost of a Dark Arts+Souleater, so a 420 potency attack plus the MP drain.

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Ah but lose nothing by turning Grit off? How's that even fun? Wars lose fiddy percent everytime. On off. 50 50 50. 50 purcent. Cool cuz we get odd rage numbers like 4 or 8 when our abilities generate rage at multiples of 10.

I mean, if you wanted WAR to have the same penalty turning on Defiance as DRK has turning on Grit, you could make it on the GCD and impose a flat 60 gauge penalty. That would be 198 potency + 1.2 Inner Beast worth of potency lost and would be mathematically equal to what DRK loses turning on Grit.

Or if you wanted to make it like PLD, you could put both on the GCD with 20 gauge cost. Actually, I could get behind this one since it would lower the skill ceiling and make IB right after Defiance easier so it would actually probably be a good change.

Is that what you would like?

the 'stay in tank stance' thing makes 0 sense for me. Paladins Oath Gauge fills 10x faster in sword oath than shield oath and it makes me ?? because Sheltron, a skill you use as mt, is more reliably available in dmg stance than in tank stance

as for drk, the nerf to blood price was awful and blood weapon is just so much more reliable to fill up your mana so in order to spam and maximize your dps via dmg rota + dark arts, staying in grit (at least for bosses) is not favourable

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Originally Posted by P4X0R10N

Ah but lose nothing by turning Grit off? How's that even fun? Wars lose fiddy percent everytime. On off. 50 50 50. 50 purcent. Cool cuz we get odd rage numbers like 4 or 8 when our abilities generate rage at multiples of 10.

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I never said WARs didn't lose anything. Just pointed out that DRKs did take some sort of loss, because it's being implied WAR is the only one who loses anything by stance dancing. Never said it was more or less severe than WAR either.

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Originally Posted by P4X0R10N

Ah but lose nothing by turning Grit off? How's that even fun? Wars lose fiddy percent everytime. On off. 50 50 50. 50 purcent. Cool cuz we get odd rage numbers like 4 or 8 when our abilities generate rage at multiples of 10.

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Are you capable of submitting a post on these forums that isn't oozing with petulance and pre-adolescent-tier-sarcasm?

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Originally Posted by P4X0R10N

Ah but lose nothing by turning Grit off? How's that even fun? Wars lose fiddy percent everytime. On off. 50 50 50. 50 purcent. Cool cuz we get odd rage numbers like 4 or 8 when our abilities generate rage at multiples of 10.

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Cant tell if troll or for real.

Because, apparently, SE would like for me to turn on tank stance as little as possible.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Because, apparently, SE would like for me to turn on tank stance as little as possible.

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Basically this.

Just yesterday in Susano EX. My FC healer asked me why didn't change to tank stance when I voked. I told him I wouldn't do this as long as this penality exists, cause it doesn't do sh*t except lowering my damage and gauge. I am fine as long as I use my CDs for troublesome phases (sometimes I droped 30k HP while party was getting healed, you get the picture) and tank busters. (And I already had equiped my fending gear.)

I'd probably just not use grit after I have enough enmity.

Also mana is dark knight's lifeblood. They use it for dark arts and the blackest night (free bloodspiller and our mitigation was destroyed for it). Turning grit on is losing one of those. Losing mana feels worse then if it was blood gauge (and don't even suggest both or else I'll remove grit from my bar).

I think the idea behind tank stance punishment is to make it a bit of a decision but honestly it's a bit archaic. They should just make it so you take less damage in tank stance with high enmity, and dropping tank stance should be optional if your during phases that don't do a lot of damage.

There would be a higher level of play for people who utilize their enmity well enough to be able to drop stance for damage but eh, I doubt we'll see that.

Because SE wants you to make a choice when tanking in a game where DPS is everything? But SE poor design with mechanics makes it like why have a tank stance anyways. So what they do is gate abilities behind it.

In the end if you read between the lines of multiple threads, player base does not really see the reason why there is a tank stance and a none tank stance, when all they really want to-do is do as much DPS as a pure DPS Job. This was by design in 3.X with WAR, where you could tank in Deliverance and pump as much DPS as a DPS job and even more than them and only swap for a tank buster and pop IB and then back to Del, also we were melding CRIT/STR because there was nothing better to have, so in the end tank dps was SE intent.

SE needs to make a choice in where they want to go, but it is abit to late to change it since they made two tanks in the previous expansion the meta, with great ability and the other one was the lol tank. So how do you fix this now? if you remove the stance penalty from WAR where you can freely change without the loss of your gauge and split IR from unchained, that will be a good start I reckon. But you will need to-do something with the other two, utility from tanks that does not increase dps from the raid comp is irrelevant in this game, since the intent is to push more DPS to skip phases.

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Originally Posted by Faeon

Snippets.

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I'd take tank stance damage reduction baked into the job if I could use say blood weapon anytime because the mana return and the speed increase just feels good to use. It's an odd irony but being out of stance is more fun then being in stance, which by design is a horrible idea. I don't think it's quite a "strong dps" mentality so much as it's a "I feel punished" or "Less effective" in tank stance. Inherently by design, tank stance feels like "training wheels" to people rather then a hard requirement or more important: Exciting or fun to use. It's actually kind of unfortunate because it would be nice if tankmode was more exciting then dpsmode.

Now mind you, I use grit when needed (enmity, undergeared healers, party struggling to stay alive etc) and I'll drop it when it's safe to. While yeah the increased dps is nice, I really, really like the increased speed of blood weapon. Likewise, sometimes being out of grit will ensure the blackest night actually pops (ie: raid aoe, auto attacks) as in grit sometimes it won't.

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Originally Posted by SunAurel

the 'stay in tank stance' thing makes 0 sense for me. Paladins Oath Gauge fills 10x faster in sword oath than shield oath and it makes me ?? because Sheltron, a skill you use as mt, is more reliably available in dmg stance than in tank stance

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Not at 70. At 70 you can fill the oath gauge from 0-100 in a little over 10 seconds in shield oath.

Every holy spirit cast is 20 oath gauge. You can typically build oath fast enough to hit shelltron 4 times in 30 seconds if you need it that often.

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Originally Posted by Kalocin

While yeah the increased dps is nice, I really, really like the increased speed of blood weapon. Likewise, sometimes being out of grit will ensure the blackest night actually pops (ie: raid aoe, auto attacks) as in grit sometimes it won't.

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I guess in the case of Blood Weapon, they could probably tie the speed up effect to something else. Like changing the Dark Arts effect of Syphon Strike into an "increases attack speed for 30s" effect, so that it is usable in and out of Grit, then balance your damage output around keeping that buff active. TBN shouldn't require a popped bubble to get gauge, but incremental gains depending no how much damage the bubble takes.

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Originally Posted by Faeon

SE needs to make a choice in where they want to go, but it is a bit to late to change it since they made two tanks in the previous expansion the meta, with great ability and the other one was the lol tank. So how do you fix this now? if you remove the stance penalty from WAR where you can freely change without the loss of your gauge and split IR from unchained, that will be a good start I reckon. But you will need to-do something with the other two, utility from tanks that does not increase dps from the raid comp is irrelevant in this game, since the intent is to push more DPS to skip phases.

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I feel they can go one of two ways. One would be to just remove stances from PLD and DRK, but let WAR keep theirs (remove everything but the +parry for Defiance and the +crit for Deliverance). Design WAR around stance dancing by splitting effects between both stances.

The other would be to alter raid design to make tank stances mandatory. Things like the boss auto-crits you if you don't have a tank stance up, and tie all enmity generation to tank stances.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The other would be to alter raid design to make tank stances mandatory. Things like the boss auto-crits you if you don't have a tank stance up, and tie all enmity generation to tank stances.

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Or make bosses counter with potency based on damage taken.

Well I personally feel like they want you to be in tank stance unless you are outside of dungeon content and it's due to failure in design that people don't, but idk.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I never said WARs didn't lose anything. Just pointed out that DRKs did take some sort of loss, because it's being implied WAR is the only one who loses anything by stance dancing. Never said it was more or less severe than WAR either.

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oooooh. So let me clarify something.

Do you REALLY think people are saying DRK loses nothing? Or do they just not feel like adding a disclaimer to EVERY SINGLE POST.

"WAR loses the most." *on a side note DRK also loses some stuff too!

It goes without saying that every tank loses something and that if someone says "they lose nothing" they are really saying "What they lose isn't as bad as bad in comparison"

Hopefully this clears that up =D

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Uh.... at level 61, the cost of a DRK toggling Grit on is 1347 MP... there's no way at 70 it's less than that. Darkside should always be on, and there's no need to toggle it on or off anymore since they removed the MP drain.

Maybe this is in reference to PLD's Oaths, but DRKs do lose a bit by toggling Grit back on. 400 more MP at 61 is the cost of a Dark Arts+Souleater, so a 420 potency attack plus the MP drain.

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So I'm not saying that you said (insert class suffers more) but I did want to add something to your post.

WAR can lose access to a 500 potency attack, its level 70 skill, a 275 potency aoe, a 300+ potency attack, a 200 potency aoe, unchained, and a 350 potency attack that's its biggest form of damage mitigation by switching. We lose all gauge if we turn off a stance too unlike DRK.

DRK loses some MP ONLY when turning on Grit and maybe a combo. And DRK has ZERO mitigation abilities locked behind stance and NO dps ones.

No matter what people say, it's factually incorrect to say WAR is not the most punished class for switching stances. It is literally the job with the most stance specific moves in the entire game. The entire class revolves around the gauge.

WAR is the only tank to have a stance specific level 70 move. It's the only tank where the majority of its damage comes from using the gauge. PLD/DRK make extensive use of useful/powerful abilities that use mana whereas WAR has zero moves that make extensive use of the TP vs the gauge. WAR is the only tank that has dps moves gated behind behind a stance (that all require the gauge), WAR is the only tank to have its major source of mitigation attached to the gauge.

Losing TP like the other loses MP? WAR wouldn't CARE about losing TP, which is why they didn't add it losing TP, because again, NO MOVES make big usage of it. It doesn't spam a self heal with its TP, it doesn't use TP to make its attack more powerful. Making it use TP on a switch wouldn't bother WAR at all. That's why it only loses gauge on switch which is STILL far to harsh because everything we do is dependent on the gauge whereas the gauge simply accentuates and adds to how DRK/PLD play.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

Actually it's only Warriors who really have a penalty. Dark Knights get NO penalty switching out of their tank stances. And Paladin stance swaps have no effect on their overall damage - just a temporary setback to their utility. The only job that really suffers from this are Warriors. As for why they did it, yeah...The people in charge of this change were probably healers who got fed up of having to take care of Warriors in Deliverance, so they decided to screw the job over and make sure this doesn't happen as often.

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Well it's not true to say they have NO penalty it's just that pld and Drk's penalty is negligible when compared to war. pld loses around 50 overall dps swapping to sword drk has no penalty at all for dropping grit but there is one going in which they shouldn't be doing anyways, and depending on where you are in your rotation war will lose between 300-500 dps

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

Well it's not true to say they have NO penalty it's just that pld and Drk's penalty is negligible when compared to war. pld loses around 50 overall dps swapping to sword drk has no penalty at all for dropping grit but there is one going in which they shouldn't be doing anyways, and depending on where you are in your rotation war will lose between 300-500 dps

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Don't forget the time WAR has to spend to make up for the gauge loss if at 50 or 100 gauge. 2-3 combos vs 1 at most for PLD/DRK (mainly for mana loss, if they even bother to do so since they can just continue their damage rotation since they can use virtually all their skills in any stance)

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

Don't forget the time WAR has to spend to make up for the gauge loss if at 50 or 100 gauge. 2-3 combos vs 1 at most for PLD/DRK (mainly for mana loss, if they even bother to do so since they can just continue their damage rotation since they can use virtually all their skills in any stance)

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That was accounted for in the 300-500 overall dps loss of the swao

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

That was accounted for in the 300-500 overall dps loss of the swao

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To clarify, I was talking about not just the DPS but the time loss which people might not think about if all you state is the dps loss.

You need to be literal with some people here or they will never see all your points.

In 3.0 Warriors were considered my many to be the most mechanically well designed of the tanks, partly because of the smoothness in switching stances. Why SE felt the need to take what people liked, then do the exact opposite is inexplicable to me.