A tank's concern

This is a genuine question, not intended to call anyone out. But the past few dungeon queues as a paladin, I've had healers, mostly AST/WHM, who pretty much exclusively focus on DPS, and when healing is needed, they use Helios/Medica to heal up, or not even that. Now, I can usually keep myself up with Clemency to supplement Regens or shields, but with the past few runs, we've wiped because I don't get any heals incoming because I see our healer spamming Malefic or Stone. Hell, there are times when I have to use Clemency to heal up other party members just to keep them up through regular boss mechanics.

Is this a problem that I am personally at fault with, or were these just some bad healers who don't know how to do their job? I am most certainly not opposed to healers dealing damage, it's why I do smaller pulls, so that I don't take as much damage and healers can DPS without worry about me going down in a few crits, but when they focus exclusively on DPSing, it becomes a problem.

healers do more damage than tanks, so the dps meta says the paladin should focus on healing.

Alright, thank you. I know leveling gear is a little unoptimized, and a lot of the time I feel like I am taking slightly more damage than I should (I've been spoiled on PotD, so there's that), but I do my best not only to keep myself up and rotate cooldowns, but also focus on keeping my party up as much as possible, throwing out Clemency as needed to get us through the dungeons. But having three dungeons in a row where this wasn't enough, it felt like I was doing something wrong.

Oh good, so can I ask you this question: Like every tank I get matched with on whm in the DF pulls 3-4 groups of mobs at once and uses no cooldowns, doesn't even look at the dps composition and thus requires me to spam every heal I have just to keep him alive. Are these tanks just bad, because, you know, I'd at least like to do something other than spam heals and not have virtually all the burden of keeping the party alive fall on me because the tank is feeling macho. And I have no problem with 2 packs with tanks who don't drop like a wet paper doll in a tornado, as long as I have some breathing room to have a little fun too. That's all I ask, thanks.

And yes, I am salty about this. Probably too much so. I'm not directing it at you, personally, just venting some steam.

While I havent run into this myself, I can say that when Im healing, or any role, I tend to go into muscle memory mode, after having played a job long enough, and when SB hit, I would "check" certain UI elements at certain intervals, depending on how often i had to before.

In short, I looked at HP every 4th GCD in 4man dungeons, as a Healer in 3.x.
But now, even if I stare at HP, a persons HP can go from full to less than 10% right after my GCD started, leaving me with only oGCDs as a means to respond. (on occasion, the enemy then lands a critical hit, and they die anyways)

But every once in awhile, my mind would wander, and I get back into 3 stones, and a cure, mentality, and next thing I know, after 1 stone, the tanks dead.

If the tank has the gear from the dungeon, or better, and uses CDs, I can throw in a stone every 2-5 GCDs, but most dont, and its quite different from what im used to, definitely will take me while to put this into muscle memory, so when I start to auto-pilot Im naturally looking at HP bars every GCD in 4man dungeons. (I honestly havent run into a tank who uses CDs properly, they either try to stack them all at the start, all in the mid, all at the end, or just rampart at the start, and thats it, and if its on CD, they use nothing, not even anticipation. Sometimes an undergeared tank will mass pull, and only use convalescence, and every GCD they go from full hp to 10%. Yeah I may heal them back to full each GCD, but it only takes a crit or a few direct hits, and they die, which happens enough to be annoyed by it.)

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

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I always felt that, as a tank, you really need to keep an eye on your party. Those types of tanks that hit the go button before even realizing their healer might be a bit low on gear or the DPS AoE damage might be a bit low really piss me off, because they focus on HURDURR GOTTA GO FAST. Your salt is definitely warranted, and it's baffling to watch happen as a DPS. Trust me when I say this, I try to keep an eye on my party before I start pulling big. If I know they, and I, can handle it, then we go, but I tend to pull on the slower side, never really going more than two small packs (think the second group and the big patrol add right behind it in Bardam's Mettle).

Are you basing this on the cast times you see next to the healers names?

Using heals with cast-times is pretty much the last step in the process of keeping you alive for me, since the instant/castless ones are generally free. On both WHM and AST it's not unusual to wait for the tank to get low, since benediction (WHM) will totally refill your HP in an instant and now has a much lower CD time, so it sees more use than before but is most practical when your HP is lower, and Essential Dignity (AST) is more potent if you have less HP.

If your HP isn't getting low enough because you're using Clemency, you'll see less heals incoming.

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Originally Posted by GeekMatt

Are you basing this on the cast times you see next to the healers names?

...

If your HP isn't getting low enough because your using Clemency, you'll see less heals incoming.

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I don't want to sound catty, but is below 30% low enough to start using Clemency? Because that's the point I start spamming it. And I have a few healers leveled to 60, I know there are a few insta-cast spells, especially with things like Siwftcast and Lightspeed. I'm not seeing anything like that though, all I'm seeing is healthbars going down and down, never up until the healer started casting Medica/Helios.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

This is a genuine question, not intended to call anyone out.

Is this a problem that I am personally at fault with, or were these just some bad healers who don't know how to do their job? I am most certainly not opposed to healers dealing damage, it's why I do smaller pulls, so that I don't take as much damage and healers can DPS without worry about me going down in a few crits, but when they focus exclusively on DPSing, it becomes a problem.

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It's not your fault. healers trying to be helpful and still haven't properly adjusted. If you see them doing that and wipe. Please give them a reminder, "guys while I do appreciate the dps, please keep me alive. " If they take it as an offense vote kick them.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

It's not your fault. healers trying to be helpful and still haven't properly adjusted. If you see them doing that and wipe. Please give them a reminder, "guys while I do appreciate the dps, please keep me alive. " If they take it as an offense vote kick them.

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Which is what I did to the first guy. Asked him to keep me up, he told me to stop being bad and stop complaining. Which felt weird because I've gotten nothing but praise from my previous groups about how I didn't seem to take any damage at all. My hang up is, because it was three in a row, if it was something I was doing wrong, and it's comforting to know I seem to be okay.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

... it was three in a row, if it was something I was doing wrong, and it's comforting to know I seem to be okay.

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Your fine, if you get trolls like that their a dime a dozen. If I were you I would give them a fair warning. 3 wipes your out. If DPS on your side otherwise refuse to tank and let them kick you to avoid penalty. They need tanks more than healers right now anyways. When that happens to me I let them know ahead of time. after second death. "guys this is insane I shouldn't be going down. Healers thx for helping dps however healing should be your priority. If I go down a third time and it's not a boss fight I will vote kick or refuse to tank until you leave." It may be harsh but they are ruining the run and I rather not deal with it. Usually DPS will be on your side. Just remember your job is to keep enmity. If they see you heal here and there they can't blame you. Also make sure to blacklist them so you don't party with them in the future.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

When that happens to me I let them know ahead of time. after second death. "guys this is insane I shouldn't be going down. Healers thx for helping dps however healing should be your priority. If I go down a third time and it's not a boss fight I will vote kick or refuse to tank until you leave." It may be harsh but they are ruining the run and I rather not deal with it. Usually DPS will be on your side. Just remember your job is to keep enmity. If they see you heal here and there they can't blame you. Also make sure to blacklist them so you don't party with them in the future.

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I might have to start doing that if it continues. Maybe not even when we go down, but when I have to start spamming Clemency on myself and the DPS.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Bad healers. The good ones know how to balance DPS with healing requirements.

If you have to use Clemency for something other than a true emergency or to activate your own Divine Veil, that usually means either the healer is shitty or you at least believe that they are.

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Not really true.

In AoE healers will absolutely shit on PLD dps if the pld can stay alive. WHMs in particular, but all of the healers, do insane aoe dps if they are allowed to cast their aoe spells (or spread their dots in the case of scholar) - in many cases the healer will beat atleast one or both of your DPS if it isn't sustained for too long (its also very mp-costly). In single target, the healer should really be healing while dpsing.

If you get a healer that is spamming holy or gravity in aoe situations as a pld, thank your lucky stars and go about keeping yourself alive with clemency and riot blade in between aoe damage to let them keep aoeing. Clemency is also massive enmity, about equal with flash every cast if you are missing enough HP. Consider the healer's aoe as "your damage" that you are spending mana on as you cast clemency to replace "their healing".

To put it into numbers, total eclipse hits for around ~1300 or so, while gravity can easily hit for 3000 or more on the first target. Id prefer it if the AST was casting gravity than casting benefic while I total eclipse. They can supplement your clemencys with ogcd heals that don't cost dps if you aren't keeping up with the incoming damage.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Snip.

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What you describe only works when both players are on the same page.

If there is an understanding that the PLD will self-sustain to prolong the healer's DPS window, sure, go for it; otherwise both players will stop attacking to heal. That's why I don't suggest it for random duties.

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Originally Posted by Tint

healers do more damage than tanks, so the dps meta says the paladin should focus on healing.

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Healers and tanks both need to get over the idea of they NEED to dps. Throw dps as able but only as a secondary option. White mage with holy is an exception as that stun is good mitigation. Too many healers and tanks are only there to pew pew.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Healers and tanks both need to get over the idea of they NEED to dps. Throw dps as able but only as a secondary option. White mate with holy is an exception as that stun is good mitigation. Too many healers and tanks are only there to pew pew.

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but the meta tho

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

What you describe only works when both players are on the same page.

If there is an understanding that the PLD will self-sustain to prolong the healer's DPS window, sure, go for it; otherwise both players will stop attacking to heal. That's why I don't suggest it for random duties.

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That's not what you said. If a healer is spamming aoe then you can freely use clemency and the world will be a better place. The healer won't respond to your health bar if it doesn't fall low enough, and thus the group's dps is higher. It doesn't necessarily need to be organised. In fact, the more we can encourage the behavior, the better. Paladin aoe dps remains lacking even with the addition of total eclipse, but the addition of the trait that halves mana costs of our abilities along with making us immune to casting interruption means that clemency has become an actual effective recovery tool that the paladin can use to sustain themselves through aoe pulls to allow the healer to dps.

This isn't something that only organised groups can do; it is something that we should aim to promote as the meta for paladins in dungeons. Paladins can tank and heal at the same time effectively, in aoe pulls where they lack damage there is no reason they shouldn't do both.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Oh good, so can I ask you this question: Like every tank I get matched with on whm in the DF pulls 3-4 groups of mobs at once and uses no cooldowns, doesn't even look at the dps composition and thus requires me to spam every heal I have just to keep him alive. Are these tanks just bad, because, you know, I'd at least like to do something other than spam heals and not have virtually all the burden of keeping the party alive fall on me because the tank is feeling macho. And I have no problem with 2 packs with tanks who don't drop like a wet paper doll in a tornado, as long as I have some breathing room to have a little fun too. That's all I ask, thanks.

And yes, I am salty about this. Probably too much so. I'm not directing it at you, personally, just venting some steam.

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I would like to address this from the tanking perspective. First off, I would ask in what dungeons does this happen? I've seen it myself when groups will ask me to do big pulls in the 50/60 roulettes. (Can't speak for 70 yet.) I would say the tank IS bad if you request they not do the massive pulls and/or the party comp isn't right for AOE things. As a tank I would like to know what would you prefer we do in those situations and under what circumstances a massive pull would be considered a good idea?

For example: If we have two BLM's or two RDM, or a mix of both. Would that be a good party to pull a mass with because of the potential AOE Damage? Or would it still be best to stick with only a few?

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

but the meta tho

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I know right. We, my normal group, sat down last night and actually took a look at how hard the new mobs are hitting. The small trash auto attack for 1k non crit and the large trash hit from 3 to 5k. Start getting Crits and direct hits and boom tank drops like a rock. The dungeons are not the same as they were at endgame HW. At least not yet. The my deeps meta that is lingering is causing more harm than good in the average duty queue.

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Originally Posted by Spartan926

I would like to address this from the tanking perspective. First off, I would ask in what dungeons does this happen? I've seen it myself when groups will ask me to do big pulls in the 50/60 roulettes. (Can't speak for 70 yet.) I would say the tank IS bad if you request they not do the massive pulls and/or the party comp isn't right for AOE things. As a tank I would like to know what would you prefer we do in those situations and under what circumstances a massive pull would be considered a good idea?

For example: If we have two BLM's or two RDM, or a mix of both. Would that be a good party to pull a mass with because of the potential AOE Damage? Or would it still be best to stick with only a few?

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Depends on gear of all involved. Dps, tank and healer. Had a tank last night in the 63 dungeon mass pull and constantly drop grit. Even with grit and cool downs she was a mana sponge. Without grit it was a night mare to keep her up. I did but it wasn't easy.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Splitting of hairs.

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There are also situations even in AoE where the PLD's incoming damage is adequately balanced by a healer's ticking HoT and/or oGCD healing abilities, making Clemency a pure DPS loss and an MP dump.

I get your theory, but at this point it isn't "meta," so when it comes to duty finder, I stick with the broader generalization of Clemency as an emergency tool.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

I know right. We, my normal group, sat down last night and actually took a look at how hard the new mobs are hitting. The small trash auto attack for 1k non crit and the large trash hit from 3 to 5k. Start getting Crits and direct hits and boom tank drops like a rock. The dungeons are not the same as they were at endgame HW. At least not yet. The my deeps meta that is lingering is causing more harm than good in the average duty queue.

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Man, I roll my eyes so hard at anyone who unironically refers to the meta for what they should be going for. I swear, a lot of the people who seriously use it as a standard to go by use it as some sort of holy book requiring strict adherence. That's not to say that it doesn't have its uses, but when we get too many people saying "Well, it's meta to do this", we get to the garbage we have now.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Splitting of previously split hairs.

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Clemency is not an emergency tool. It is a tool, to be used in a fashion that enables the most efficient management of health and damage available to the party. The same as every tool possessed by every player.

There are very few (no?) hots that don't require a gcd. A gcd is a holy or a gravity. A hot can be put up before a pull, but in an aoe pull that can mean a healer gets hit.

If the damage isn't high enough to require more than ogcd heals, I have no idea why we are even talking about who is healing.. who cares? You aren't choosing between clemency and making the healer heal in that situation. If someone needs to give up damage to heal in aoe, it should be the paladin, not the healer. What the meta is doesn't really matter; what works best invariably becomes the meta. How long it takes depends on how entrenched the old meta is.

Clemency is a cheap and efficient heal on a class that has very good mana regeneration, who cannot be interrupted while casting, who wants to generate healing enmity, who has little aoe damage, and can allow classes who have very strong aoe damage to continue doing that damage. It is also an emergency tool in cases where you don't want to be casting it (single target or low target). You say you get the theory, but if you still think of clemency as an emergency tool you don't get it.

If you're using plinkaplink total eclipse at any point that the healer is casting an on-gcd healing spell on you, your group lost damage.

If a tank dies because a healer was DPSing, it's 100% the healers fault.

If a tank dies and used no defensive CDs while the healer was DPSing, they are a terrible tank but it's 100% the healers fault.

Keeping in mind we are talking about DF dungeon content, there is nothing strong enough to force tanks to need to use CDs to survive. Instead the healer will simply have to perform its primary role to a better extent. Our DPS, as much as some of us love it, is not our primary objective. Not all tanks will be terrible, but when they do pop up, it's up to us to adapt to them. Whether anyone likes it or not, tanks generally dictate the pace of the duty.

Of course this is only something I apply to random DF parties. If it's a tank I know, they better up their game because technically our DPS contribution should outweigh theirs.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Man, I roll my eyes so hard at anyone who unironically refers to the meta for what they should be going for. I swear, a lot of the people who seriously use it as a standard to go by use it as some sort of holy book requiring strict adherence. That's not to say that it doesn't have its uses, but when we get too many people saying "Well, it's meta to do this", we get to the garbage we have now.

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I was agreeing with your sarcastic take on the meta not agreeing with the meta. The rest of the post was to show the amount of damage people are taking to highlight they need to be backing away from it. So I think we are agreeing with it each other.

IF a tank ask if big pulls are ok, Healer agrees and does more than 2 sets at once ( based on newer dungeons ) it's the tanks fault for not gauging properly. IF healer complains and wants more and Tank goes down ( even with CD ) it's a Healers fault. IF healer ignores tanks request of not casting until pull is over and gets healer killed, its a healers fault. IF DPS runs ahead and grabs mobs on purpose it's a DPS fault. IF Tank uses markers and people can't count or follow order its DPS Fault. IF people don't communicate IT'S Everyone's FAULT.

I mean when healers were literally getting dogged on for not dpsing before, it's no surprise now that they're trying it - at a point when it's not really ideal because tanks are getting hit harder in dungeons again especially on multi pack pulls.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

I was agreeing with your sarcastic take on the meta not agreeing with the meta. The rest of the post was to show the amount of damage people are taking to highlight they need to be backing away from it. So I think we are agreeing with it each other.

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Oh, I wasn't criticizing you. I was just showing my exasperation with the people who follow the meta as scripture. It was not meant at you, I was just jumping off your point. I'm sorry if I made it seem like I was criticizing you, I didn't mean it that way at all.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

I mean when healers were literally getting dogged on for not dpsing before, it's no surprise now that they're trying it - at a point when it's not really ideal because tanks are getting hit harder in dungeons again especially on multi pack pulls.

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Admittedly, the above reason is why I'm kiiinda quick to boot DPSing healers, especially when they're letting someone die. As in, one death = auto kick. I've seen enough of such "healers" to know how it's going to work out from that one wipe.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

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I don't really see how were your runs but I can share my personnal experience with you.

First using aoe heal while you're the only one to take damage is a mistake from these healers, cause well, obviously, there's only you who need heeling so single target heal are better and should be used.
However, if you're talking about bosses in general, there are some times when I personnaly only cast aspected helios or medica II when aoe damages are made because the next aoe will come later and my regen will heal everyone to full life. I rely a lot on regens and oGCD like essential dignity, tetragrammation... which are instant and powerful.
So there are two situations. Or you were paniced that everyone wasn't healed fully or you had indeed bad healers that didn't know what they were doing.
But regens are strong.

Don't know if it helps.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Is this a problem that I am personally at fault with, or were these just some bad healers who don't know how to do their job?.

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In the scenarios you have described, then it is bad healers plain and simple. Folks can analyze, "what-if", look for excuses, and blame the META all day. But at the end of the day if someone dies due to gradual loss of HP, then its the healer's fault. Sure folks do dumb things and get themselves killed, but if the tank dies to damage taken then its the healers' fault...plain and simple. Circumstances don't matter, under geared, tank didn't use cooldowns, tank pulled too much, tears tears tears always crying. Healers are equipped to heal under the most austere conditions so blaming the tank is sad...and I main the worst of the three healers!

I main SCH and only wiped on the 67 dungeon on first run cause it was a bitch. WHMs and ESPECIALLY ASTs have NO...ZERO, NOT ONE excuse to wipe a party or let a tank die. If it happens, that's on them. Healers heal, and then DPS second. If they don't know how to rotate between the two, that's on them.

Keep on tanking!.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Admittedly, the above reason is why I'm kiiinda quick to boot DPSing healers, especially when they're letting someone die. As in, one death = auto kick. I've seen enough of such "healers" to know how it's going to work out from that one wipe.

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So it's always the fault of dpsing healer if someone dies ... because - you know - DPS don't tend to stay in sh*t?
I have a simple rule ... if a DPS can't be bothered to move out of AoE to minimize incoming dmg, I can't be bothered to heal them. As long as I see at least an effort I will heal, if not I will spam Holy/Stone and raise them afterwards.

PS: I didn't mention tanks because I seldom run with rnd tanks.

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Originally Posted by Tremara

So it's always the fault of dpsing healer if someone dies ... because - you know - DPS don't tend to stay in sh*t?
I have a simple rule ... if a DPS can't be bothered to move out of AoE to minimize incoming dmg, I can't be bothered to heal them. As long as I see at least an effort I will heal, if not I will spam Holy/Stone and raise them afterwards.

PS: I didn't mention tanks because I seldom run with rnd tanks.

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Sorry, but this mindset baffles me. It seems like you're holding the run ransom because people aren't playing up to your standards. There's a stark difference between encouraging people to play better and punishing them for missing mechanics. If I have to heal for you as a paladin because you'd rather spam Stone/Holy, there's something wrong with this picture.

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Originally Posted by Tillen

In the scenarios you have described, then it is bad healers plain and simple. Folks can analyze, "what-if", look for excuses, and blame the META all day. But at the end of the day if someone dies due to gradual loss of HP, then its the healer's fault. Sure folks do dumb things and get themselves killed, but if the tank dies to damage taken then its the healers' fault...plain and simple. Circumstances don't matter, under geared, tank didn't use cooldowns, tank pulled too much, tears tears tears always crying. Healers are equipped to heal under the most austere conditions so blaming the tank is sad...and I main the worst of the three healers!


Keep on tanking!.

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This is crap. A tank who requires ridiculous amounts of healing can wipe a group just as easy as a bad healer. Tanks have cooldowns for a reason. Dps do make mistakes no one is perfect so they need heals sometimes too. Having to babysit a tank for every waking gcd isn't fair to the healer or the group. The healers responsibility is to the entire group not just Mr tank who thinks cooldowns or proper gear is not a thing to worry about. Healers are not the whipping posts of the group.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Sorry, but this mindset baffles me. It seems like you're holding the run ransom because people aren't playing up to your standards. There's a stark difference between encouraging people to play better and punishing them for missing mechanics. If I have to heal for you as a paladin because you'd rather spam Stone/Holy, there's something wrong with this picture.

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No, I don't hold the run ransom. How could I? If someone thinks I fail to heal they can always initiate a vote kick but I was never kicked from a party so far. It's not like that it happens on a regular basis that ppl die while I'm healing.
Like I said as long as I see ppl at least trying to move I will always heal them but if they stay in the AoE constantly because they rely on the mindset that the healer will heal and save their ass, then no, I have to pass. It's like encouraging to fail core mechanics of the game.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

This is crap.

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No sir. I said based on the scenario that the OP provided and an issue of gradual HP loss, then it is the headers fault. OP asked a specific question and I answered it.

I main healer so I am very well versed in the mistakes of others, falling off platforms, getting the wrong debuff and standing in the wrong puddle, etc. Shit happens. But when a healer flat out decides to DPS more and not heal the tank in time...like the OP asked, then no It's not the tanks fault. I'm on the team to heal, not to DPS. If I can't do that then I'm gone.

By this logic of "oh the tank is under geared so I have to spend my whole time healing" is like the tank saying "oh these deeps are too over geared and not using enmity reductions skills, that's why I can't keep hate" or DPS saying "well that healer needs to meld more Piety, it's not my fault trash pulls take so long, he should have come prepared"
Folks always want to take the easy way out and blame others and never look inward. If healing is a problem, then its on the healer.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

If I have to heal for you as a paladin because you'd rather spam Stone/Holy, there's something wrong with this picture.

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This right here.

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Originally Posted by Tillen

This right here.

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I agree with her there. I also agree that it is ok for a healer to be busy enough throwing heals that they do not dps. I just took you post to mean a tank sucking up all the heals where no one else can get one is aa good thing and still the healers fault if the group wipes. Which is what I took issue with. Sorry if I misunderstood.

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Originally Posted by Tillen

If healing is a problem, then its on the healer.

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If I'm spamming heals and CDs and the tank still isn't living because he's not using defensive CDs or he's in terrible gear (as in, gear so terrible it's a mystery how he got into the dungeon) that is 100% the tank's fault.

Friend of mine got a tank that had only 3k HP more than her as an AST. Nothing she did could keep him alive. Is that her fault? No, it isn't.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Admittedly, the above reason is why I'm kiiinda quick to boot DPSing healers, especially when they're letting someone die. As in, one death = auto kick. I've seen enough of such "healers" to know how it's going to work out from that one wipe.

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If you're kicking healers like this for what could have honestly been a mistake or a "lesson learned" for them, you aren't the kind of person who should be running duty finder with randoms.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

I agree with her there. I also agree that it is ok for a healer to be busy enough throwing heals that they do not dps. I just took you post to mean a tank sucking up all the heals where no one else can get one is aa good thing and still the healers fault if the group wipes. Which is what I took issue with. Sorry if I misunderstood.

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Lol, all good. She said it better than me anyway, that was the long and convoluted point I was trying to make. No worries.