Please Restrict tank classes from wearing strength jewelry.

So this tank goes in pulls 1 group of 3 monsters, takes 3 hits and died before the heal can be off. I'm on my dps watching this tank wearing all strength jewelry and I'm like are you serious why would you wear dps jewelry as a tank?

"Cus my DPS!" or so they may say. Personally I think it should be restricted to VIT accessories only. Eventually we will gain enough ilv that they will be forced to remove the STR and I can't see them drop several ilvs just to put them back on in a dungeon or make it that you can't swap accessories if you were to fall below ilv

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Originally Posted by Cirith

So this tank goes in pulls 1 group of 3 monsters, takes 3 hits and died before the heal can be off. I'm on my dps watching this tank wearing all strength jewelry and I'm like are you serious why would you wear dps jewelry as a tank?

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Lol. But seriously, everything Lv 61+ is Job locked. It will even out once 4.2 drops.

/sarcasm At the same time, lets make it so healers can't DPS. I was tanking a dungeon last night leveling my PLD and died twice due to not receiving sufficient heals because my WHM was too busy casting Aero.

In all seriousness however, that did happen. However, as annoying as it was, I adjusted, re-positioned Convalescence and Clemency to be more easily accessed, kept better watch on my mitigation cooldowns, and we completed the dungeon.

Do I think tanks should wear strength accessories in order to increase their DPS at the expense of survivability? No. Do I think that people playing tanks have the right to play the way they wish, at the expense of their own party? Yes. Why is that? Because eventually they will be ostracized, duty finder groups will kick them out, they won't be able to continue progressing and they will either wear the gear that allows them to succeed, or they will switch to playing DPS and remove themselves from the already low tank pool.

I see you already have a 70 Paladin. I have almost always played tanks, in Heavensward, I mained DPS because the group I was with had plenty of tanks. Stormblood, I was seeing a significant decrease in the number of tanks, and an increase in the number of bad tanks, so I got my MNK to 70 and picked my PLD back up. We have solved our immediate problem by playing the role. Are there times I want to play DPS? Sure, I just know I run the risk of a bad tank when I do so.

Does it suck when you get a tank that doesn't tank, a healer that doesn't heal, or a DPS that doesn't DPS? Yes. Is changing what equipment that can be worn going to fix the problem? No, because what you get when you do that is less tanks. Instead, what we have is bad tanks. The good thing about bad tanks is that with some work they can become good tanks. Let them know why they are failing in their role. Either they will acknowledge it and change, or they won't, and you blacklist them.

Pretty sure they are doing that in 4.05 because they said they were going to fix the issue with tanks and str acc.

My only issue with Tanks in STR is in dungeons.

I do WAY more AoE DPS as a WHM than you do as a Tank. Every second I need to stop to Cure 2 you is a Holy I don't do.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this opinion but I'm a healer as well as a dps. On my whm, I heal and if there is time I dps. I NEVER dps at the cost of someone not getting heals. Unfortunately healers are picked on if they do dps and if they don't. We can't win.
Right now tanks want to wear underleveled gear so they can "dps" which is rather laughable considering a whm can out dps a tank. I'm not saying this to add to the fighting but because it's true. What a lot of healers forget is that the dps jobs can out-damage a healer and keeping them alive is the smart thing to do.
Eventually tanks and healers may realize that SE is purposely making it so they have to do their jobs instead of dps. There are many dps classes they can play if that's what they want to do

A truly good tank will maximize themselves by having just enough HP to survive, rotating cool downs appropriately, and yes, maximizing DPS. I personally wear a hybrid of Lakshmi VIT acc and 270 STR accs (2/3 VIT/STR) appropriately melded with their opposite stat. I have never had any problems staying alive as long as the healer was semi decent.

That said.. I use that primarily for dungeon bosses and Raid/EX. In dungeons I generally do large pulls and will max on VIT for those. Multiple gear sets is really the best way to go.

The reason why this STR accessories thing is such a big deal is because HP VS Damage in a DPS centric game, DPS is gonna win 10 times out of 10. Not only that but us tanks when we get fending we don't get stronger, tenacity isn't good at all either even as a secondary, where does that leave tanks? In this awkward as hell itemization that doesn't even make sense in any MMO where we have to go backwards to use STR in order to do any kind of DPS.

Do we want to do as much DPS as actual DPS? No, we don't, as far as fending goes in terms of gearing it only increases HP and gives us Tenacity whereas DPS and healers can get their full right side and continue to gear and be more powerful. Then you have these tanks who think they know how to tank in full STR, pull the world without their healer or any CDs who simply die in a matter of seconds those are the ones you see more commonly. Not to mention healers in this game are so powerful you can heal people in 2-3 Cures/Benefic I/IIs etc compared to other MMOs where they spam heal till their OOM.

As a tank main who has adapted tank changes from 2.X > now I'm honestly baffled at why they changed tanks in such awkward ways, it's like they wanted to streamline their game and only convoluted itself further and has once again torn the tanking community into another black hole.

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Originally Posted by Zarabeth

There are many dps classes they can play if that's what they want to do

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And then when people actually do that and complain about the queues, the same people that told them to play a DPS then end up telling them to just play a tank/healer if they dislike the queues.

You just can't win there.

At the end of the day, a tank's primary duty is to soak up damage. I have no issue with them dishing out damage as a secondary affair but they should not be able to reach similar numbers to pure DPS classes.

It causes a mess, too, since 'famous' players do it and cause others inspired by them to follow in their footsteps even if they're far from capable of pulling off such bold decisions flawlessly.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

My only issue with Tanks in STR is in dungeons.

I do WAY more AoE DPS as a WHM than you do as a Tank. Every second I need to stop to Cure 2 you is a Holy I don't do.

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This a million times this. My Gravity spamming adds more DPS than your STR acces add. Just survive longer so I can DPS longer.

That being said, PLDs who are not afraid to heal themselves with clemency, we healers LOVE YOU!!!!

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Originally Posted by Maku

This a million times this. My Gravity spamming adds more DPS than your STR acces add. Just survive longer so I can DPS longer.

That being said, PLDs who are not afraid to heal themselves with clemency, we healers LOVE YOU!!!!

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And Clemency is based on STR. Seeeeeeeeee, even more reason lol

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Originally Posted by Cadmar

And Clemency is based on STR. Seeeeeeeeee, even more reason lol

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And then you don't have enough health to survive the cast time. Seeeeeeeeee, even more reason against it.

So, legit question here because I'm curious about your thoughts. Do you feel that tanks should stay in "tank stance" for the duration of all fights too then? It's basically the same argument, and there is a ton of benefit when it comes to stance dancing.

Again, I'm talking mainly boss, raid, EX and not dungeon mass pulls.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

And then you don't have enough health to survive the cast time. Seeeeeeeeee, even more reason against it.

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There's no content in the game that melts your health so fast that you can't even get a Clemency off, even in full strength, outside of the ridiculous super-pulls you can do in some of the leveling dungeons.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

There's no content in the game that melts your health so fast that you can't even get a Clemency off, even in full strength, outside of the ridiculous super-pulls you can do in some of the leveling dungeons.

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And when was the last time you saw other tanks doing single-group pulls?

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Originally Posted by Cirith

So this tank goes in pulls 1 group of 3 monsters, takes 3 hits and died before the heal can be off. I'm on my dps watching this tank wearing all strength jewelry and I'm like are you serious why would you wear dps jewelry as a tank?

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Honestly, if the tank is being dropped in like 3-4 hits on a 3 pack, they were probably doing a lot more wrong than just wearing STR accessories.

I understand and accept that tanks (at least my raid tanks) will use STR jewelry for as long as they're better than tank jewelry. All that matters is that they have enough HP to survive tank busters -- at least for high end groups. More STR(DPS) is more beneficial to the raid group than excess HP. That said, it wouldn't bother me if they restricted the STR jewelry. :P I lived through 2.0 and had my fill of STR tanks.

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Originally Posted by Kaelk

Do I think tanks should wear strength accessories in order to increase their DPS at the expense of survivability? No. Do I think that people playing tanks have the right to play the way they wish, at the expense of their own party? Yes. Why is that? Because eventually they will be ostracized, duty finder groups will kick them out, they won't be able to continue progressing and they will either wear the gear that allows them to succeed, or they will switch to playing DPS and remove themselves from the already low tank pool.

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I just wanted to say I agree with the idea in the past. I liked when communities policed players behavior. The advent of a computer forming groups mean those players will continue to make others lives miserable for as long as they play a sub. So i try to que with players I know. In this day in age you don't expect a hot mess from the duty finder should probably have yourself checked out.


Also to the people "I need the dps for hate." No you don't if SE will just keep adjusting Savage Blade
Enmity effect has been increased. Flash
Enmity effect has been increased.It is just as easy for them to adjust that. In fact it keeps tanks better off since you get the hate increase automatically with patch while dps have to gear.

Many people has the misconception that vit accesories makes you tankier and need less healing which is wrong.

It only gives a few extra seconds before the tank reaches the critical point where he needs inmediate healing. I have saw people that say "but my aoe spells deal more than the extra damage from tanks" which is not true unless you want to say that 1 healer gcd worth of spells> extra damage from tanks on the entire pull, because a single heal is enough to compensate the hp difference, so thats the only benefit. Healers will heal the same even if the tank has 50 or 100k hp the only difference is how much time they have to notice that the tank is going down.

Outside super low hp values tanks going with str accesories and proper gear on other slots, allow a faster run and equally safe as a vit tank. As long as the tank can survive the tankbusters, the extra hp is not needed aside for having extra wriggle room for the healers in case they have slow reflexes

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Originally Posted by Kaelk

/sarcasm At the same time, lets make it so healers can\\'t DPS. I was tanking a dungeon last night leveling my PLD and died twice due to not receiving sufficient heals because my WHM was too busy casting Aero.

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Are you wearing str? If you die in an aero cast time you sound squishy

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Snip...I don't understand healers...snip

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You are correct except you don't take into account that healers have many ways, at least WHM and AST, to massively heal a crap ton of HP in an instant.

If a tank has lower HP we have to spam heal because our massive healing combos/oGCD skills will over-heal, which is worthless MP/oGCD/Enmity generation.

More HP = we only have to use out Burst heal combos and can DPS for a substantially longer time, which will out DPS the DPS diff from STR rings.
Low HP = Spam normal GCD heals and never able to DPS

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

And when was the last time you saw other tanks doing single-group pulls?

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Never, I main tanks so I don't have to see awful DF ones. I usually don't do single-group pulls either.

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Originally Posted by Maku

You are correct except you don't take into account that healers have many ways, at least WHM and AST, to massively heal a crap ton of HP in an instant.

If a tank has lower HP we have to spam heal because our massive healing combos/oGCD skills will over-heal, which is worthless MP/oGCD/Enmity generation.

More HP = we only have to use out Burst heal combos and can DPS for a substantially longer time, which will out DPS the DPS diff from STR rings.
Low HP = Spam normal GCD heals and never able to DPS

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Hmm lets see: hots/shields heal the same no matter your hp plus having around 10k less is hardly " tank need spam healing" just saying...

Oh and by the way if you wanna discuss something, drop the smartass treatment and respect others. If you dont wanna discuss and you think only your opinion is truth and law then dont bother posting, thank you

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

My only issue with Tanks in STR is in dungeons.

I do WAY more AoE DPS as a WHM than you do as a Tank. Every second I need to stop to Cure 2 you is a Holy I don't do.

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This is true.

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Hmm lets see: hots/shields heal the same no matter your hp plus having around 10k less is hardly " tank need spam healing" just saying...

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Again you miss the fact that HoTs/Shields are not our burst healing combos. Burst heal combos can go from 1 to full HP on a full VIT tank in a single GCD, and will be ready to use again by the time they need a burst heal again. Lower HP means they will need a burst heal more frequently, and thus our burst combos wont be ready, thus having to spam heal him with regular heals. HoTs do not heal fast enough in the 70 dungeons to rely on only them and shields are not spammed because they cost crazy MP.

I am not discussing anything. I am telling you how it is. This isn't a debate, this is a fact.

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Originally Posted by Cirith

So this tank goes in pulls 1 group of 3 monsters, takes 3 hits and died before the heal can be off. I'm on my dps watching this tank wearing all strength jewelry and I'm like are you serious why would you wear dps jewelry as a tank?

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In all honesty, this seems more like an inattentive healer, rather that STR accessories.

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Originally Posted by Cirith

So this tank goes in pulls 1 group of 3 monsters, takes 3 hits and died before the heal can be off. I'm on my dps watching this tank wearing all strength jewelry and I'm like are you serious why would you wear dps jewelry as a tank?

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/s Perhaps you haven't heard of this thing called "the meta" where players decide to BiS their gear to do as much damage as possible, who cares if it makes the entire dungeon stressful.

Players need to quit zerg rushing things like PotD because it creates bad players who then try to do this in all content.

There's a lot of maths at play here, it's not as simple as 'More vit = More survivable' - the healers saying that tanks using STR accessories require more healing are partially wrong, here's why:

Tank self-heals actually increase in potency with STR (I'm told this is the case for PLD and WAR, it's definitely the case for DRK), DRK especially, their soul-eater combo and DA-AD combo is a part of their active mitigation, providing back health per hit, and thus reducing the amount of damage a healer must heal off and this reduces the amount of healing they require over time. From a mathematically perspective its mitigation of a sort.

Vitality on the other hand is a static value that increases the size of that pool and therefore the time the healer can go without healing the tank and/or allows the tank to flub bigger tank busters, but it does not increase the tank's actual ability to mitigate damage.

With this in mind there is a number of factors to further consider:

What is the largest amount of damage the tank is likely to soak up in a given timeframe
Obviously if the Tank's HP doesn't meet this plus some safety margin to cover slow healers or badly timed auto attacks, they will be one-shot. But values significantly above this are 'unused' - assuming the tank is receiving healing in a timely manner.

What is the largest maintenance heal that a healer will reasonably put out in one cast?
If the Tank's HP pool is too small to receive all of this, they will be over-healed and the healer will have wasted MP/Opportunity. By the same token, if a healer can heal 20k in one go and the tank has 40k hitpoints, they don't really need ALL of the extra HP when the healer could have just cast their cure spells in a more timely manner. If the Tank's Hp is decreasing faster than you can heal them, they are going to die, regardless whether they have 30k or 300k HP unless the DPS can down all of the enemies in a matter of seconds.

How competent is the tank/healer?
Nobody will want to admit to incompetence, but less competent players result in poorer use of mitigation/timely healing and that means you want a bigger safety margin. As a tank your priority is always to stay alive, and if you need to just be a walking target backstop with someone spamming cure on you non-stop, go with that, it's easy and reliable even if highly inefficient, but it's not optimal

The take-away from this is that telling a tank to go full vit and serve as a walking target dummy is the same as when people tell healers to not dps because it is safer!. Tanks trying to 'maximise their DPS' are overdoing it (Especially if they are dropping their tank stance to do it. DRK lose their active mitigation outside tank stance, defeating the purpose of increasing your damage, as now the healer has to work even harder to keep you up, costing THEM DPS), full right-side STR is greatly inadvisable; and some fights will require the use of full-VIT, but most the time, tanks switching out some VIT for STR within reason and playing their class well are a huge boon to party DPS; not simply because they hit harder, but because they require less healing and therefore leave the healer's free to deal more DPS themselves.

Removing tank damage scaling off VIT and making the only STR accessories tanks can use be ancient ones was a bad move. VIT should scale tank damage up again, or at least tanks should be allowed to wear up to date strength accessories. Allowing for neither is a strange choice.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

/s Perhaps you haven't heard of this thing called "the meta" where players decide to BiS their gear to do as much damage as possible, who cares if it makes the entire dungeon stressful.

Players need to quit zerg rushing things like PotD because it creates bad players who then try to do this in all content.

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There were bad players well before PotD came along. And TBH both sides of the equation need to get the sticks out of their butts. What good is a tank that can't use a CD or doesn't have the health needed to survive more than a second just to stretch your personal dps? And what good is a healer's AoE when their tank falls and the mobs come after your own face cause you just HAD to improve your piddly (in comparison) numbers? People need to focus on their role's duty first and their 'deeps' second.

Gotta love tanks not having enough HP to survive a crit tank buster/auto attack combo in Susano EX because they're too busy wearing ilvl 270 str accessories for muh sick deeps.

Of course its the healer's fault if they die though. Nevermind that they're flat out oneshot from 100%, or dead before a precasted cure 2 can go off on them. No no, definitely the healer's responsibility to keep them alive. Healers want to dps or use proper mana management etc? Naahhhh bro, if you stop casting cure 2 on the tank auto attacks will kill them so I hope the DPS don't need any healing or those pesky mechanics don't get in the way because that 600 extra dps the tank gets is totally worth it.

Really, think about it. If a DPS dies because the paper thin tank couldn't stop being healed long enough for an extra medica now and then, the DPS loss of the weakness debuff on an actual DPS player is already more than what that tank put out. How is that even remotely worth it?

Ugh. The fix SE talked about cannot come soon enough. I had just about enough of high stress healing due to str warrior tanks in the ARR meta. I was happy to leave it behind in Heavensward and I dread it's return in SB. There's plenty of good tanks that won't be drooling morons and realize that getting oneshot by a tankbuster followed by a crit auto attack means they should put on some vit accessories, but for that one good player there's 10 more tanks that will yell at their healers instead and never consider switching up the 270 str accessories for an instant.

Theres a difference between having enough hp to endure tankbusters and wearing str accesories, and wearing str accesories with not enough hp. On the first case is only the tank fault if the tank doesnt use cds, on the second case is always the tank fault due to failing at maths.

Lets not talk about extremes, since the idea is survive+ have extra dps. Most of the tanks will say that they play switching vit/str accesories, depending on the fight needs

I got a better idea. Give us the ability to switch gears mid battle. So when it's time to DPS, go all out!

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Theres a difference between having enough hp to endure tankbusters and wearing str accesories, and wearing str accesories with not enough hp. On the first case is only the tank fault if the tank doesnt use cds, on the second case is always the tank fault due to failing at maths.

Lets not talk about extremes, since the idea is survive+ have extra dps. Most of the tanks will say that they play switching vit/str accesories, depending on the fight needs

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If this was the case there wouldn't be any question, because nobody would care if the tanks had DPS or not. You seem to think that there are healers out there that get angry if the tanks are doing more DPS than them, which I don't believe is the case. The problem is that tanks that wear ilvl 270 str accessories are doing so to the detriment of the healer. The stress levels of healing someone who can survive an auto attack after a susano tank buster compared to someone who cannot is night and day. And it is the ones that cannot that are the first to jump down the healer's throat for 'bad healing' and add to the misery of the experience. The reason why the discussion exists and why healers do not want tanks wearing STR accessories is because they're often idiots about it at best, rude idiots at worst and their fun and exciting playstyle is inflicting agony on those who have to make up the slack.

Imagine I was a DPS wearing ilvl appropriate gear to get into a run. Then once I got into the group and into the run, I switched all my gear to 100 ilvls below so that I could only do just enough damage to fulfill the DPS check requirements, instead of wearing the proper gear that I had. People would be upset with me, no doubt about it. I bet they'd be even more angry if I told the rest of the group it was their responsibility to make up the slack. Tanks dropping their gear to the point where they are only barely capable of fulfilling the requirement of [NOT DYING INSTANTLY] (or only being able to as long as the next auto attack doesn't crit, that's a real fun RNG to hinge a wipe/clear on), and then expecting healers to make up the slack are exactly why str accessories are a problem.

So yes. There are the good tanks that are adjust their gear accordingly and are careful not to put such strain on their healers that they quit the group after witnessing the first tankbuster. But because of all the bad tanks circlejerking the MOAR STR, MOAR DPS meta and refusing to wear any vit accessories and torturing the healer playerbase in the process, it's enough of a problem that SE acknowledges it and is going to do something to fix it.

I just pray it's something that means I'll never see a tank wearing ilvl 270 right side in Omega Savage.

For the dungeon arguement, in a vacuum scenario yes vit or str doesn't seriously affect total heal per second. What is does effect is how long can the healer NOT heal you. If your total hp buffer does not provide 5.5 secounds of no heals then you have effectively removed healer dps.

5.5 secs = 1 gravity or holy and 1 gcd to heal

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Originally Posted by Adire

Removing tank damage scaling off VIT and making the only STR accessories tanks can use be ancient ones was a bad move. VIT should scale tank damage up again, or at least tanks should be allowed to wear up to date strength accessories. Allowing for neither is a strange choice.

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Not really. They could simply fix tenacity. Improve it's scale ability and problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Demise

I just pray it's something that means I'll never see a tank wearing ilvl 270 right side in Omega Savage.

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I imagine in progression gear that a Savage tankbuster will 1 shot a tank in STR 270's.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

I imagine in progression gear that a Savage tankbuster will 1 shot a tank in STR 270's.

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I don't think so. Especially with a paladin and dark knight pairing, since they can protect each other.