Ooooh More Emnity

SE, seriously, you add anymore aggro to flash and I'm going to be able to use it once then afk for the rest of the pull.

I'm so triggered by this. To se the solution to every tank issue is to add more enmity. This doesn't ever fix the core issues.

Yeah, like WAR no longer doing 80% of a DPS jobs damage. How dare they!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Yeah, like WAR no longer doing 80% of a DPS jobs damage. How dare they!

---

Just revealing yourself as a garbage dps if you let any tank pull 80% of your dps. Theres more issues than just the dps with war/drk right now, but you seem just as ignorant as se so no point writing an essay for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tankstuff

Just revealing yourself as a garbage dps if you let any tank pull 80% of your dps. Theres more issues than just the dps with war/drk right now, but you seem just as ignorant as se so no point writing an essay for you.

---

Oh I dont have this problem. I'm just saying, its always WAR's complaining they dont do enough DPS anymore, its one of my FC members' favorite complaint.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Yeah, like WAR no longer doing 80% of a DPS jobs damage. How dare they!

---

Or you know the good tanks that will adjust, mitigate, and contribute will still keep going, while you sit on here being salty about doing no dps and your 1 2 3 combo.

I hope you realize that it's not just str that's tearing tanks apart it's balancing issues, tenacity being useless vs damage, having enough vit to do X encounter. There's a bigger picture here.

Why do I feel the need to murder someone

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Oh I dont have this problem. I'm just saying, its always WAR's complaining they dont do enough DPS anymore, its one of my FC members' favorite complaint.

---

...because war offers 0 raid utility now, literally none. 2 of their new skills are worthless. Stance dancing is more punishing on war than drk/pld. So if they dont bring dps to compensate, which they dont, there is no reason to bring them over drk/pld lol

Woah, this isn't a War whine thread, lmao. Get back on topic!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Yeah, like WAR no longer doing 80% of a DPS jobs damage. How dare they!

---

Yeah! How dare an offensive orientated tank want to do damage!! They should be happy with 0 utility and just stay in tank stance and be a REAL tank. Tanks should just wrap themselves up in a nice film of bubble wrap and spam flash, or unleash, over power and be happy with their class! /s

I think the real question here is what will that enmity scale with? Is it tied to VIT? Flat value that increases with ilvl? Combination of VIT and STR? Adding more enmity is good but its a shame that Overpower was the only aoe to get the treatment. Would have liked to see Steel Cyclone get the same love since it costs 50 gauge to use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tankstuff

Just revealing yourself as a garbage dps if you let any tank pull 80% of your dps. Theres more issues than just the dps with war/drk right now, but you seem just as ignorant as se so no point writing an essay for you.

---

There is actually 3.6k paladin parse from fflogs 3.4k without balance. So if you dont do 4300 with dps without balance and 4500+ with balance you are garbage dps? I wonder how there is so many garbage dps players in fflogs that can not reach that.

Tanks should do 70%-80% or so of the dps of a normal dps. That is how it is in most games in fact. No one wants to be doing 50% of a dps damage and just be a giant punching back. That is how you get to a point where people don't want to play tanks.

But the issue is not the amount of damage tanks are doing but their solution for it. Tanks already have fewer forms of potency to unload damage than dps do, that is naturally how you control how much damage a tank does. Add in 20% penalty in tank stances and you have plenty of ways to reduce their overall potential. But when you straight up say 'your right side wont help your damage at all' then you have a expansion long issue of scaling that will only get worse over time.

Its stupid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

SE, seriously, you add anymore aggro to flash and I'm going to be able to use it once then afk for the rest of the pull.

---

Without meaning to sound offensive I am really beginning to wonder what dps players these tank people get in there parties when they can say they don't have any enmity problems at all.

I've sometimes found my self flashing and scorning entire pulls (in shield oath) till I literally have no mp left only to see half the pull go yellow 2 seconds later after I run out of mp.

Mathematically it's impossible for a pld to generate more enmity in a large pull than endless flash and scorn spam in shield oath. because they are our biggest aoe eminty gains. If I even think about using total eclipse (more damage less enmity) then oh no there goes the pull over there smacking the dps..... and they're dead.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sunako

There is actually 3.6k paladin parse from fflogs 3.4k without balance. So if you dont do 4300 with dps without balance and 4500+ with balance you are garbage dps? I wonder how there is so many garbage dps players in fflogs that can not reach that.

---

Yeah cause that one tank that got pushed beyond everything is the measurement for everything.
Is today be as stupid as you can be on the forum day or what

I'll just quote myself...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fernosaur

The enmity changes are for low level content. That's the reason only Savage Blade, Skull Sunder and Spnning Slash got enmity buffs, bc once you get the third step in the enmity combo you stop having enmity problems in single target in stuff like Totorak and Tam-Tara. Right now, Red Mages are giving low-level tanks a headache. It's a good change.

Same applies to Flash, Overpower and Unleash. This is also probably why Unleash got a buff but Abyssal Drain didn't. The changes aren't for endgame, they're just fixes for QoL, much like the Troubadour change.

IDK about Bhavacakra tho, but it's welcome.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Baci

Is today be as stupid as you can be on the forum day or what

---

Stay here for long enough and you'll realize every day is that day lmao.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fernosaur

I'll just quote myself...





Stay here for long enough and you'll realize every day is that day lmao.

---

The unleash nerf by 50% is such a headscratching change too.

Whenever I am rouletting (gotta get that mount) it makes l50 sync and below content......painful.

I wish Overpower just didn't break combos (; _ ; )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Falar

The unleash nerf by 50% is such a headscratching change too.

Whenever I am rouletting (gotta get that mount) it makes l50 sync and below content......painful.

---

Yeah, I agree. Though it's technically "in line" with the rest of the AoE nerfs the other jobs suffered, particularly in low level. SCH and SMN were some of the first jobs to get powerful AoE with Bane, and look where that got them, lmao. I think it's evident by now that SE really hates speedruns in general.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

I wish Overpower just didn't break combos (; _ ; )

---

This may be one of the biggest things I miss about Flash.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Baci

Yeah cause that one tank that got pushed beyond everything is the measurement for everything.
Is today be as stupid as you can be on the forum day or what

---

Oh I m sorry if I hurt your little tank friend so you need to white knighting him. My example was probably exaggerated. Well if we compare these speed runs where warrior and paladin do around 3200 dps, dps classes in their team do around 4k, bard is doing 3.6k. If dps do 4k dps 80% from it is 3200 dps wich is exactly what tanks are doing. Tanks are still doing 80% from what dps classes do. This is just basic math. No offence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sunako

Oh I m sorry if I hurt your little tank friend so you need to white knighting him. My example was probably exaggerated. Well if we compare these speed runs where warrior and paladin do around 3200 dps, dps classes in their team do around 4k, bard is doing 3.6k. If dps do 4k dps 80% from it is 3200 dps wich is exactly what tanks are doing. Tanks are still doing 80% from what dps classes do. This is just basic math. No offence.

---

You realize tank dmg is being artificially (and temporarily) boosted by about 25% right?

Those tanks are doing around 2,3-2400- DMG. And that's a top 1, rank 1, percentile tank... So a grey parsing Sam or MNK in the same run is going to out-dps THE top 1 PLD?

Then why don't I just Flash spam and watch Netflix? Where's my incentive?

That's the future.

Giving tanks more enmity generation, while trimming down damage margins so much, is just going to make the role feel very un-impactful. Tanks pushing their DPS, to be better or worse than other tanks, yet still reasonably lower than a DPS of the same percentile rank, was one of the skill dividing factors of a good tank from a bad tank. But now all tanks will be pretty much the same, maybe a 250 DPS variance from the median to the top percentile (minus super speed comps or double ast cheese), once they're forcibly moved into full Fending gear for the HP to succeed in Omega Savage.

A tank's value moves to their ability to utilize their party utility abilities then.... Aka a support class.... Which means if you felt no incentive before since being top 1 in your tank class meant a grey-parsing MNK would still out-dps you by 300, then there's even less now if you're a DRK or WAR and have no great utility.

tl;dr
DPS queues are gonna get longer

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sunako

Oh I m sorry if I hurt your little tank friend so you need to white knighting him. My example was probably exaggerated. Well if we compare these speed runs where warrior and paladin do around 3200 dps, dps classes in their team do around 4k, bard is doing 3.6k. If dps do 4k dps 80% from it is 3200 dps wich is exactly what tanks are doing. Tanks are still doing 80% from what dps classes do. This is just basic math. No offence.

---

youre a dense ape. This will be the smallest gap between tanks and dps the entire expansion unless they fix tanks scaling with our accessories, and right now the only reason we can hit those numbers is because of a loophole where we throw away 10k hp to use 270 accessories and go ham without tank stance the entire fight because the primals are glorified striking dummies. That wont happen in savage progression.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cadmus

Giving tanks more enmity generation is just going to make the role feel very un-impactful. Tanks pushing their DPS, to be better or worse than other tanks, yet still reasonably lower than a DPS of the same percentile rank, was one of the skill dividing factors of a good tank from a bad tank.

---

All I can say is YES, I like your statment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sunako

Oh I m sorry if I hurt your little tank friend so you need to white knighting him. My example was probably exaggerated. Well if we compare these speed runs where warrior and paladin do around 3200 dps, dps classes in their team do around 4k, bard is doing 3.6k. If dps do 4k dps 80% from it is 3200 dps wich is exactly what tanks are doing. Tanks are still doing 80% from what dps classes do. This is just basic math. No offence.

---

You're just cherry picking so it does favor your argument. We are currently not playing how SE wants us to play. Equip those 320 accs and show me a 3.6k parse again please.

And like alot people get it wrong. No tank here wants to easily out dps an actual dps class. We just want scaling on our accs so they are not a wasted drop in your Savage raid

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sunako

Oh I m sorry if I hurt your little tank friend so you need to white knighting him. My example was probably exaggerated. Well if we compare these speed runs where warrior and paladin do around 3200 dps, dps classes in their team do around 4k, bard is doing 3.6k. If dps do 4k dps 80% from it is 3200 dps wich is exactly what tanks are doing. Tanks are still doing 80% from what dps classes do. This is just basic math. No offence.

---

The only tanks reaching those numbers are using the i270 str accessories. As the expansion moves on, the 'crutch' of those will be overshadowed by larger ilvl gaps between dps accessories and shire/gordias ones. A silly argument. No tank in fending accessories is hitting numbers that high.

They did not even unlock the accessories , yet our attack scale on it,not even the freedom the mix half an half...they did what they always do temporary aid patch an never resolve the core problem of tanking, I'm losing hopes for tanking class in this game.
Im disappointed at the situation in every possible way, I have not enjoy tanking at all.

For now one less tank for dungeon until they fix this madness..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cadmus

snip

---

Well, not only that, but there's more to the game than just dungeons and raids even though raids are the main thing we care about in terms of balance. Assuming we're getting a new deep dungeon in 4.1 tanks actually do need to be able to do good DPS, like maybe 75% of a DPS job. If tanks and healers do only 40% of a DPS job's DPS even in their DPS stance, if you get 2 tanks+healer in the deep dungeon you could have a bad time on the bosses.

Raw tank DPS is irrelevant to this conversation anyway since they can always tweak the formula to make it higher or lower, the problem is that the right side of your gear doesn't provide your primary stat and that's dumb. I don't care to upgrade my accessories because they give me nothing for the content in the game currently. That's dumb, better gear should make you stronger.

As someone that was turned off of tanking somewhere around Cutter's Cry, I can't really complain here. But all I'm seeing is a bunch of end-gamers wailing without any consideration for what it means for the learning tanks.

Maybe it's just because I don't view tanking the same as the rest of you, idk. I mean, I get it, you don't want to just be the party lightning rod so everyone else can do their fun things. But if I were gonna jump back onto PLD or something, I'd still be focused first on keeping aggro, and if that's getting buffed, at least it means I'll have a better chance of trying my other fun things. Not that it really matters to me. Mostly just felt like pretending to make a difference on that front.

I like the part where Yoshida goes:

Quote:

---

Lastly, players have expressed concern that enmity is difficult to sustain. Some have taken to using ilv 270 STR accessories to address the issue[...]

---

I hope they do realize those accessories are not taken just because of enmity... >_>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hasrat

As someone that was turned off of tanking somewhere around Cutter's Cry, I can't really complain here. But all I'm seeing is a bunch of end-gamers wailing without any consideration for what it means for the learning tanks.

Maybe it's just because I don't view tanking the same as the rest of you, idk. I mean, I get it, you don't want to just be the party lightning rod so everyone else can do their fun things. But if I were gonna jump back onto PLD or something, I'd still be focused first on keeping aggro, and if that's getting buffed, at least it means I'll have a better chance of trying my other fun things. Not that it really matters to me. Mostly just felt like pretending to make a difference on that front.

---

I think everybody's happy with the change to hate generation at low levels. It was terrible what a RDM would do to a new tank.

I...don't know why nobody on the dev team though of that when they arranged the levels you learn the skills, but w/e.

All these enmity changes and I betcha Titan Egi still can't hold hate.

DPS do damage,
Tanks take damage,
Healers heal.

This isn't "me" saying this, this is Yoshi P and the developers stating this. They want "purity of purpose" for the roles. I'm sorry, you ARE looking at the future of tanking. This IS what they want. That's why they are INCREASING hate generation and NOT damage. If doing that 2-10% higher than PLDs will get the warriors to chill out I'm all for it. I don't care. But expecting to do comparable damage to a low end DPS is going to be a thing of the past. SE wants that gone.

The only time a tank would have done more than a DPS is if the DPS was bad. I have seen a DPD pull off 250 dps throughout an entire void ark. That doesn't mean anyone doing more than 250 is OP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by s3ystic

DPS do damage,
Tanks take damage,
Healers heal.

This isn't "me" saying this, this is Yoshi P and the developers stating this. They want "purity of purpose" for the roles.

---

If this is what they are actually thinking than they don't have a clue how their own game works (and always worked).

Tanks and Healers are also responsible for their dps, which actually makes these roles somewhat interesting. Tanking and healing mechanics are way too shallow to stand on their own feet.

For the record, I think the only reason for statements like these is to ease the pressure on the more "casual" and newer players. The dev team knows exactly how their classes and their content is designed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zojha

I hope they do realize those accessories are not taken just because of enmity... >_>

---

For better or worse: quite a few people argued it was imposible now to hold aggro from some jobs "because tank damage is not high enough to keep up with enmity."

I saw that argument be pulled up more than a few times in the STR accessory threads. Maybe these people thought it would be a good argument to get us more damage, but that backfired.

I'm holding aggro a lot better since the patch. Happy with that change at the very least.

Did you guys notice they stealth nerfed Souleater on DRK?

Before the patch, it was healing for 100% of damage dealt. Now it's healing for less. Mind you it wasn't THAT much less, but still off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaedan

Did you guys notice they stealth nerfed Souleater on DRK?

Before the patch, it was healing for 100% of damage dealt. Now it's healing for less. Mind you it wasn't THAT much less, but still off.

---

You mean before the big patch? Yeah that was noted IRT Souleater and Inner Beast. I don't think anybody is really sure why.

Because of how the damage is scaling fast now, they don't want us healing for 24% of our hp soon.

At L60 it is still 100%. At level 70 it is 88%. That was from 4.0, not 4.01.