Just to clear some things up about the new DRK

So I haven't posted here in a very looong while (stopped the game for months and stuff) but everyday I go to the forums and I always see people saying that in SB, DRK became the easiest and least busy out of the 3 tanks and I think that they are completely blind. I suspect them not having even played it at level 70 yet (besides easy dungeon stuff or brainless dummy DPS).

Disclaimer : I'm not pretending to be the best out there but I have tanking experience in raiding starting in 2.1 with all tank jobs and I main DRK since 3.0 launch so I atleast know what I'm talking about when it comes to how tanking works in this game and especially DRK.

Let me explain. I'll reply to what I read the most about the new DRK on forums recently. And please read the whole post or don't read at all. I'm not just gonna defend the current DRK, there are bad things about how the job currently is of course and I'm gonna talk about that too.

"Now you only have one combo over and over again", yeah ? Like it wasn't already feeling that way in HW ? You'd spam DA SE as much as you could and just be hitting Delirium for MP regen because it had more potency than non-DA SE. It's literally just hitting another button for the last input of the combo. It's far from being complex and it doesn't require any form of skill whatsoever. SB only made it so that you'd still be using SE for when you'd be using Delirium before. If you really want to hit a different key on the last hit of your combo when you want to regenerate MP then just put a second Souleater in your bars where your old Delirium used to be and it would feel the exact same as HW DRK again.

"We've lost Scourge", refreshing a single-hit DoT once every 30s doesn't require any skill either and feels just like using an oGCD whenever it comes off CD. It doesn't require a brain. So removing it doesn't affect the complexity of the job in any way. The only sad thing about losing Scourge (besides its really high total potency of course, which is another problem, nothing to do with complexity) is losing its beautiful animation.

"We have less oGCDs than before so it's slow now", wait, what ? Because Dark Arts isn't an oGCD ? You can use it even more right now. The Blackest Night is an oGCD too. So yeah we lost Low Blow procs and Reprisal as damaging oGCDs just to gain non-damaging ones, and I myself am quite sad about that (especially about the loss of Low Blow procs, it felt really good), but in terms of keystrokes per minute I assure you that lvl 70 DRK is on par with HW lvl 60 DRK if not higher because of the DA spam. And on top of that, you now have more uptime on BW by it having its CD reduced and Delirium extending its duration once every 2min which makes your GCD faster even more often than before. Saying that DRK has become as slow as WAR is utter bullshit.

"There are no decision anymore", again what ? Because in HW we had more ? About what, Dark Arts ? In HW there wasn't any decision about DA, it was just SPAM it with SE as long as you have enough MP for DA C&S and non-DA DP (except in AoE where you'd DA it) whenever it's available. There was an optimal rotation where you'd use it as much as possible to gain more damage while making sure you don't get to 0 MP (which wasn't hard at all) and still have enough MP for higher priority MP usage (being DAC&S and DP). Sure we lost the single-target Dark Passenger as a priority before DASE but again it doesn't hinder the complexity of the job at all. It was just one oGCD to use whenever available. The MP cost was so low that you'd barely have to watch at your MP and it became much more about muscle-memory than actual MP management and "decision-making". SB just forces you to move your muscle-memory eslewhere.

We actually have a bit of decision-making with the Blood Gauge and TBN now. You don't want to mindlessly use Bloodspiller everytime you hit 50 on your gauge. For example, in the current level 70 EX primals, there are some times where you're in Grit and sometimes where you're out of Grit (And I'm pretty sure it will also be the case in Savage). You'll want to save Bloodspiller for when you'll be switching into Grit in order to get free very strong GCDs that ignore Grit's damage penalty (as a "mini-unchained"). But you don't want to cap out on Blood Gauge either otherwise it's a waste of Blood and you ultimately lose DPS. You'll also want to use Delirium when you're out of Grit and have Blood Weapon active, but you don't want to use it if you're near max MP since Delirium will immediately give you 2400 MP on top of extending BW. You'll also only do that if you're sure that you'll be hitting the boss for the entire duration of BW. If the boss is gonna jump out of the arena or you'll have to go Grit in seconds for a tank-swap, using a Bloodspiller instead is a better option (after turning Grit on for the latter).

As for TBN, let's take Susanoo EX as an example : You're not currently tanking, you're out of Grit, DPSing. A tank buster is coming, you put TBN on the MT, then turn Grit on, and then Voke + DA Bloodspiller immediatly after the tank buster hits. You can weave it into your Power Slash combo if you're not confident about keeping hate over the other tank without it (but honestly you should be fine as long as they're not DPSing in tanking stance like some baddies do). On top of that, if your Blood Gauge was already near 50 before TBN to break, you'll get another in-Grit Bloodspiller almost right after. Another example in the same fight is when you're the one tanking and your tank buster is coming, you use TBN on top of a CD. You usually don't have a lot of Blood since using Bloodspiller while in Grit is a high priority GCD. The tank buster hits, you drop Grit as the other tank provokes, then you immediatly Blood Weapon + Delirium thanks to the 50 Blood generated by TBN breaking after the buster. It will both immediatly refund you for the MP cost of TBN while extending BW, increasing your DPS. This last example can be applied to Lakshmi too if you're the MT (or solo-tank) since she has phases where she does almost no damage and phases where she hits really hard (with chanchala aura), which will determine when you'll be in Grit and out of Grit and when you'll be using Bloodspiller and TBN.

Granted, it's not hard to figure out and not really complex, but it gives a nice dynamic to the job and it IS a bit of decision-making. It's more decision-making than 3.X DRK atleast which was full-on muscle-memory + watching for Low Blow procs and nothing else.

The only tank who ever had decision-making pre-4.0 was WAR. Now both DRK and WAR have it (WAR currently being the most complex because of the clunkiness and all the drawbacks from 4.0 changes), PLD is still very straight forward and the easiest tank to play who only gained an extra magic-damage burst phase which consists of spamming Holy Spirit back to back to back with Requiescat, far from being complex. And PLD's gauge is just an afterthought, might as well be a longer CD on Sheltron and Intervention and the result would be the same.


Of course tho, I think that there are issues with the current 4.0 DRK. But it has nothing to do with the job's complexity. I don't understand the Dark Passenger nerf as it was a balanced ability that worked well as it was and didn't need any change. Now it's worthless, even in AoE scenarios. I don't understand the Blood Price nerf either, the MP regen is abysmal now (being at level 70, 1/3rd of what it was at level 60 per received hit) and the flat 20 Blood gauge it gives over-time for its entire duration doesn't make up for the fact that it's now locked behind Grit. I also think that Quietus should ignore Grit's damage penalty just like Bloodspiller does. I also don't like having lost the Low Blow procs. I liked that "random" aspect about the job. And I also miss the DADD + DADP dodge-tank big ass pulls in dungeons. But I don't think that any of this has anything to do with the job's complexity or pace. I hope some of those things will be changed with the release of Savage or in future updates.

Please make Dark Passenger great again. Scourge and Dark Passenger were the best animations on this job and one disappeared while the other became total shit. I'm sad.

As a 70 drk who is capped right now...I say well said. I agree with all of this!

Yea dropping Grit for DEL + BW whenever DEL is off cooldown is a good first step/guide for stance swap as MT for anyone hesitant on how to best maximize it. Lakshmi Ex is like the perfect testing grounds for flexing out your new DRK kit. So DRK don't hesitate to run it. These primals are really forgiving anyway. Honestly DRK has enough to eat every tankbuster out of Grit, though it feels like higher raid DPS speeds up Lakshmi's rotation / Tankbuster frequency, though maybe that's just in my head.

I assume the Blood Price nerf is akin to Warrior's Bloodbath removal. They wanted the sustain of DAAD spam gone. Would be nice to see some other additional effect on Blood Price now, like with how Blood Weapon increases attack speed / CD reduction, just so its more up to par with it's counter-part.

My vote would be adding a small chance proc'ing damage reflect to BP that heals for equal damage (like.. 100 potency). Or BP enables the Parry of magical attacks & Parry from all directions, and the reflect/counter is tied to that parry proc. With that, then replace Blood Price's dull ability icon and animation with that of the old Shadowskin (slightly modified), and rename it Dread Spikes.

But short of that fantasy, just some added sort of defensive or DPS+ component to give BP some flavor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xenosan

Snip (good BP change suggestions)

---

I agree, BP just feels so weak compared to its "counter part" Blood Weapon right now... It misses something to make it actually worth having to choose between spending Delirium on it or on Blood Weapon depending on the situation. Right now extending Blood Price is just a waste outside of big ass pulls in dungeons.

Thanks for this post. It brings up a lot of good gameplay tips that I plan to try out during some Susano farming today and is refreshing change from the "MUH MAINTENANCE DOT" tears.

I don't have a particular gripe about how DRK changed, but I understand what issues some people have...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyyy

You'd spam DA SE as much as you could and just be hitting Delirium for MP regen because it had more potency than non-DA SE.

---

Delirium wasn't only your "DPS combo when you can't Dark Arts". The INT debuff was something you seek to maintain in magic heavy fights or when progressing through raids. SE thought it was tiresome ? OK, but then, give delirium something useful. For example, instead of adding a blood building effect on Blood Weapon and Blood Price (Which were already very nice skills in HW), give Delirium an "open wound" effect, so that every attack gives 1 or 2 blood. Suddently, if you want to optimize, you still have two combos with very different purpose.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyyy

The only sad thing about losing Scourge (besides its really high total potency of course, which is another problem, nothing to do with complexity) is losing its beautiful animation.

---

We'll cry forever on this one :'(...truth is, Delirum animation was also pretty cool :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyyy

"There are no decision anymore", again what ? Because in HW we had more ? About what, Dark Arts ?

---

You're right, and that's exactly the problem. SE just thrown a lot of choices for Dark Arts...that are basically meaningless, since almost all do the same. In HW, we had Dark Dance, that Dark Arts really changed. Why don't we have one WS where Dark Arts doesn't just increase the damage ? They could have made interesting other things for Syphon Strike...like the "open wound" debuff I mentionned earlier, if they really don't want us to have three different combos.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyyy

Please make Dark Passenger great again. Scourge and Dark Passenger were the best animations on this job and one disappeared while the other became total shit. I'm sad.

---

For me Dark Passenger always felt awkward...when ARR launched, there was kind of an implied rule that skills always cost one ressource, be it time (for CD), TP (for WS) or MP (for Spells). Dark Passenger is the only skill that cost both time and MP. And if the MP cost was removed it would suddently be a much more interesting skill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Delirium wasn't only your "DPS combo when you can't Dark Arts". The INT debuff was something you seek to maintain in magic heavy fights or when progressing through raids. SE thought it was tiresome ? OK, but then, give delirium something useful. For example, instead of adding a blood building effect on Blood Weapon and Blood Price (Which were already very nice skills in HW), give Delirium an "open wound" effect, so that every attack gives 1 or 2 blood. Suddently, if you want to optimize, you still have two combos with very different purpose.

---

Yeah I was solely responding to people who compared 3.0 Delirium combo vs current DRK rotation. Of course they could've added something interesting to the Delirium combo instead of deleting it, but deleting it actually didn't change the DRK gameplay at all besides changing the last key you hit on your "MP regen combo". That was my point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

For me Dark Passenger always felt awkward...when ARR launched, there was kind of an implied rule that skills always cost one ressource, be it time (for CD), TP (for WS) or MP (for Spells). Dark Passenger is the only skill that cost both time and MP. And if the MP cost was removed it would suddently be a much more interesting skill.

---

Dark Passenger actually was one of the most MP-efficient ability on DRK's kit whether it be in AoE or single-target, and its cost was really low in 3.X so having both CD + MP cost wasn't that bad IMO.

Edit: And I'd like to add that BRD got an off GCD weaponskill with a CD that costs TP (Empyreal Arrow I think ? I don't play bard) so this rule isn't really a rule anymore since HW

The only thing that truly bothers me about the new DRK is that dark passenger is a dead skill now and you actively hurt yourself using it, and that blood price is clearly bugged; I refuse to believe anyone is incompetent enough to intentionally make it this bad.

I miss my Dark arts + dark dance with pre-nerf dark passenger..i love seeing all that dodge popping out...why you do this SE.

Another thing is the delirium combo with that awesome 10% int debuff, anyone who has done A12S knows when the DPS/ST goes into the portal that 10% int debuff is a lifesaver for that 1 healer. The current delirium is just trash.

Besides putting debuff on bosses to mitigate just that bit of damage was what made tank fun in the first place why are we removing this?

IMO, if bringing scourge back is not an option, perhaps Power Slash finisher w/ Dark Arts should apply the Scourge dot. Just a random idea.

I do miss the Scourge animation tho it was freaking sweet. DRK lost a lot of flavor/cool appeal with the ability purge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xenosan

Yea dropping Grit for DEL + BW whenever DEL is off cooldown is a good first step/guide for stance swap as MT for anyone hesitant on how to best maximize it. Lakshmi Ex is like the perfect testing grounds for flexing out your new DRK kit. So DRK don't hesitate to run it. These primals are really forgiving anyway. Honestly DRK has enough to eat every tankbuster out of Grit, though it feels like higher raid DPS speeds up Lakshmi's rotation / Tankbuster frequency, though maybe that's just in my head.

I assume the Blood Price nerf is akin to Warrior's Bloodbath removal. They wanted the sustain of DAAD spam gone.

But short of that fantasy, just some added sort of defensive or DPS+ component to give BP some flavor.

---

I've been doing that since getting Delirium, the gains are just too good. Seeing as how we don't pay the penalty the other two tanks do for stance dancing I'd say this is intended gameplay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mekhana

IMO, if bringing scourge back is not an option, perhaps Power Slash finisher w/ Dark Arts should apply the Scourge dot. Just a random idea.

I do miss the Scourge animation tho it was freaking sweet. DRK lost a lot of flavor/cool appeal with the ability purge.

---

The old reprisal was nice.
Delirium was my favorite finisher visually.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dalmacus

I miss my Dark arts + dark dance with pre-nerf dark passenger..i love seeing all that dodge popping out...why you do this SE.

Another thing is the delirium combo with that awesome 10% int debuff, anyone who has done A12S knows when the DPS/ST goes into the portal that 10% int debuff is a lifesaver for that 1 healer. The current delirium is just trash.

Besides putting debuff on bosses to mitigate just that bit of damage was what made tank fun in the first place why are we removing this?

---

Same, the new Dark Passenger has no use. I hate it and the new Blood Price.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Falar

I've been doing that since getting Delirium, the gains are just too good. Seeing as how we don't pay the penalty the other two tanks do for stance dancing I'd say this is intended gameplay.

---

Yeah stance dancing feels like it's actually intended and rewarded on this new DRK.

Oh and I forgot that Grit got indirectly buffed, for the entirety of HW Grit was used as a glorified extra defensive CD for tank busters because staying in Grit was really bad and hindered everything from damage to MP regeneration and stuff, but now that we have Bloodspiller and Syphon Strike MP regen doubled while in Grit, the time spent in Grit doesn't feel as bad as before, it actually feels better than being in ShO or Defiance now.

It's pretty clear that every person in this discussion is not familiar to 4.0 Capped DRK, its skill sets, high end content and dungeons.
Sorry guys for being rude but i've never read so much disinformation as in this thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

It's pretty clear that every person in this discussion is not familiar to 4.0 Capped DRK, its skill sets, high end content and dungeons.
Sorry guys for being rude but i've never read so much disinformation as in this thread.

---

I do not have full tome gear yet (who can with weekly cap?) so tell me, o enlightened one, how I am wrong about the new Dark Passenger being useless or Blood Price even with Delirium giving no where close to the MP that it used to?

Damage/mp Dark Passenger always loses to everything now. DA+DP takes 1/2 your MP--is there ever a time you NEED a blind that bad?
Even with double duration from Delirum BP will not give the same mp it used to since they nerfed it to 25% of its old MP return per hit.

Still found DRK too boring to play now.

Except in PvP, now I love it in PvP.

(On a side note, I feel your counter arguments dont really reflect what people are upset about, but im also too lazy to go into detail. I've given up interest in DRK too much to talk about it like I used to.)

Nope but we are familiar with lvl 70 DRK with 314 ilvl (current cap) vs. Lakshmi Ex (current endgame) and in all the expert dungeons, which means its the best experience level you can get. Also, how often did "it ll all work out later even though its borked to hell right now" work out in MMOs? About as great as "there wont be a change in playerbase role distribution for Stormblood, because in Heavensward it didnt change either", hahahaha.

I played a DRK all of HW for every content, clearing everything in almost any normal setup. I played a DRK in SB EX. I can tell you, its a massive step down in many regards, not the least of all comparable viability to the other tanks.

I've mellowed out about the changes to dark knight in the past week or so. while i dislike the overall nerf to passenger, and am still on the fence with delerium...i think i'm levelling dark knight as my first stermblud tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mekhana

IMO, if bringing scourge back is not an option, perhaps Power Slash finisher w/ Dark Arts should apply the Scourge dot. Just a random idea.

I do miss the Scourge animation tho it was freaking sweet. DRK lost a lot of flavor/cool appeal with the ability purge.

---

I agree, especially since NIN's Shadow Fang now combines the DoT and slashing resistance from the now-removed Dancing Edge.

Well written and I couldn't agree more. People on this forum highly underestimated the use of TBN and cried dps loss when DRKs are actually in a great place. Quietus and DP still need to be looked at for sure but the pre-launch vitriol over ability descriptions was so volatile.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jimsvaliant

Quietus and DP still need to be looked at for sure but the pre-launch vitriol over ability descriptions was so volatile.

---

Quietus feels pretty ok to me so far. With Blood Price being more a Blood Gauge generator than one for MP now, a decently sized pack is giving me one every few Abyssal Drains/Unleashes. Can't say I often find the MP to Dark Arts it, that being better served on said MP AoEs or The Blackest Night, but that's about it for complaints. Sharing the Grit ignoring bonuses that Bloodspiller has would be a welcome perk though.
Dark Passenger definitely needs to go back to the old MP cost though. The Blind is absolutely lovely now that things actually hurt, but nearly 50% of max MP to do it is rather harsh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EusisLandale

Quietus feels pretty ok to me so far. With Blood Price being more a Blood Gauge generator than one for MP now, a decently sized pack is giving me one every few Abyssal Drains/Unleashes. Can't say I often find the MP to Dark Arts it, that being better served on said MP AoEs or The Blackest Night, but that's about it for complaints. Sharing the Grit ignoring bonuses that Bloodspiller has would be a welcome perk though.
Dark Passenger definitely needs to go back to the old MP cost though. The Blind is absolutely lovely now that it actually works on things much more consistently, but nearly 50% of max MP to do it is rather harsh.

---

I've been throwing up TBN and BP before pulls and I can stack 100 blood in no time at all, but after 2-3 abyssal drains I just do two non-DA quietus for fear of running out of mana. As you said, blowing half an MP bar on DA DP is wasted. DRK single target is so so good but I cant stand doing trash atm.

Yes, the Dark Passenger nerf is complete shit. It means using it any situation is a DPS loss, unless its right before a boss/pack dies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Falar

Yes, the Dark Passenger nerf is complete shit. It means using it any situation is a DPS loss, unless its right before a boss/pack dies.

---

Only purpose seems to be a desperation mitigation cooldown if blind works on a group of enemies otherwise it will sit there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Only purpose seems to be a desperation mitigation cooldown if blind works on a group of enemies otherwise it will sit there.

---

I had it off my hotbars for a while but just put it back.

How come people bring up the changes to BW's recast time as if it was a buff? sure, it was 60 seconds in HW, but you also recieved a trait that made its recast time 40 seconds anyways. UPtime on BW, outside of delirium extension, hasn't changed.

DP blind should be standard (double or triple CD dont care) and much bigger potency increase with DA

The changes were bad. I wanted the DRK to receive the new skills but without the removal of the other skills, it would be great. I didn't get why the removal of the other skills was necessary, they are not that hard to master and doesn't brings up or down the complexity of the class.

the problem with your logic about combo complexity is that you still had more to track thanks to scourge, reprisal, low blow procs and delirium debuff/mp gain vs when you could SE on top of all the mechanics. It really wasn't the hardest thing in the world, but adding it all up ramped up the difficulty still (regardless of if you want to all it braindead or not). I'd say its a valid complaint honestly. Yeah your main goal was always DA SE, but you still couldn't just do that all the time, so you had multiple combos to branch off of. Its not the same at all since you had to be more aware. Especially with the loss of DP for single target rotations and that dark side doesn't drain anymore.

not saying 4.0 dark is a joke or less fun. I'm just confused to your counterpoints.

honestly the one change that bothers me the most was the loss of so many defensive cool downs i mean don't tanks kind of need those?

Also dark mind is basically useless for trash pulls since every enemy does physical damage. I don't get why they got rid of so many helpful cool downs and didn't replace the one that is limited to magic only, and still costs mp if you want its full potential, the mp which rather than reducing (only magic) damage by a further 15% can be spent on a 20% hp damage shield. And while that may be necessary if the boss is smacking you for so much more than your max hp, still best to just save rampart or shadow wall since it's not going to cost you a DA for the full effect

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashur

-snip-

---

dark mind was always like that. It's a sixty second 30% magic reducer that was heavily utilized in the previous meta. It's designed for magic tank busters in a magic tank buster meta, and your probably only going to ever use it for magic tank busters along with blackest night.

I can't speak for capped DRK, but nerf aside Dark Passenger is the only thing carrying me through hero pulls in SB content. It's a defensive CD now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saber_alter

dark mind was always like that. It's a sixty second 30% magic reducer that was heavily utilized in the previous meta. It's designed for magic tank busters in a magic tank buster meta, and your probably only going to ever use it for magic tank busters along with blackest night.

---

Yeah I understand that, but after skills getting pruned it's a shame that's what we're left with. War keeps thrill of battle + vengeance + raw Intuition. All 3 can be used in dungeon pulls and boss fights. Same with pld, it keeps bulwark and sentinel, again increased block rate can ease the burden in sword oath and gain some gauge, and is handy in dungeon pulls. And if Paladin doesn't have sheltron ready they can pop a temporary passage of arms for an emergency guaranteed block. But dark mind will go unused in trash pulls and plenty of dungeon bosses, probably useless if they add a physical only trial, and just seems a bit too niche leaving a gap in drk's defence

Would it be to much to slightly up the potency when using DA with Bloodspiller? Currently DA increases it's potency at the same amount as SS and SE. Feels like for our big bad attack it should be priority if it's going to be on a gcd, either buff the potency or potentially take it off gcd?