But it's a sword.

I am so jazzed about having RDM. I love spellcasters with swords.

So why, exactly, are RDM's not allowed to use said sword outside of the GCDs? I can't even get in close for auto attacks without losing dual cast. ;_;

I just want to stick them with the pointy end between spells.

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Originally Posted by Venjamin

I am so jazzed about having RDM. I love spellcasters with swords.

So why, exactly, are RDM's not allowed to use said sword outside of the GCDs? I can't even get in close for auto attacks without losing dual cast. ;_;

I just want to stick them with the pointy end between spells.

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their level 1 skill is a sword skill(first hit in the sword combo)... its just more optimal to use the combo to lead to the finisher because of the nature of using x amount of black/white mana with the combo for significant damage increase/have enough to cast the final nuke

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

their level 1 skill is a sword skill(first hit in the sword combo)...

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Which is likely there because it'd make no sense to give you Jolt at lv1 if you have nothing to spend mana on once you hit 30/30 from spamming it. It's purely for making the skill spread work and nothing else.

The sword is sadly an afterthought, since the design basically forces you to spam spells from range and then run in to hit the mob 3 times and then get away again. If you use sword skills without mana (which takes a long time to build), you're going to be dealing really low damage. Hence why the potencies are so low.

It's a step above this, but not by much. And yes, that guy doesn't use his sword for anything at all.

Red MAGE...

Can't say I'm a fan of rdm.

Having both white and black mana is a silly concept on this, because the white mana is just nuke spells really. You have a bad cure and a raise... but so does smn. It's blm with dragoon jump, little more.

Ffxi the rdm outside of soloing became the same too though in terms of that sword being useless.

At least you leveled rdm starting out as a swordsman and slowly learning spells. That was cool. Here you start at 50 though with everything handed to you.

Meh

The cure is a boss. I love my cure. But despite being a red MAGE BOLD LETTERS ETC, red mages have always been competent melee damage dealers as well as casters, which is why I'm disappointed with the lack of mana interaction and swordplay. If it's close enough to dead, I'll embolden auto attack a bit to feel special.

Actually I think it is the perfect balance, your sword combo when fully enchanted does awesome damage.
As a mage you cast few spells, then jump in few swordplay actions then pull out again to cast few spells. I actually think in the concept of FFXIV (MMO), the redMAGE is very well done and balanced.

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Originally Posted by Capriana

Actually I think it is the perfect balance, your sword combo when fully enchanted does awesome damage.

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I would't call gameplay skewed towards casting "perfect balance". Perfect balance would be sword skills not dealing pitiful damage on their own, the ability to combo sword skills with spells, one weakening the mob so that the other does more damage, and all of that can be done without needless yet almost forced mobility.

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I actually think in the concept of FFXIV (MMO), the redMAGE is very well done

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I'll say that compared to the other MMO hybrids that came before it, the job's design leaves something to be desired.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Red MAGE...

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Welcome to the final fantasy series of games! It's always great to have newcomers. I know it can be confusing to hear a name like that and think of red mage as a pure mage but it's actually always been kind of a hybrid between a classic mage type and a fighter.

Yeah, the current RDM is nothing short of a mockery. Hell, I'm pretty sure WHM and MNK got more love than RDM... the dev team spent too much time on "How can we make it flashy" and completely forgot to make it FUN.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Welcome to the final fantasy series of games! It's always great to have newcomers. I know it can be confusing to hear a name like that and think of red mage as a pure mage but it's actually always been kind of a hybrid between a classic mage type and a fighter.

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Who said it was a pure mage? Not me, that is, because I know what a Red Mage is. Thanks for assuming that I don't, or for your sarcastic answer.

Besides, not being able to auto-attack is such a minor thing... and probably an oversight.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Who said it was a pure mage? Not me, that is, because I know what a Red Mage is. Thanks for assuming that I don't, or for your sarcastic answer.

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Considering you did a callback to the "lol it has mage in the job name" argument, I think the response was warranted.

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Besides, not being able to auto-attack is such a minor thing... and probably an oversight.

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Actually, you are able to auto-attack. Auto-attack does not remove Dualcast like the tooltip says. That being said, auto-attacks deal tiny damage, and that still leaves the question of use of the sword when not 80/80 (you don't because your DPS then tanks).

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Considering you did a callback to the "lol it has mage in the job name" argument, I think the response was warranted.

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I still think that my answer was appropriate considering that the thread is entitled "But it's a sword."

"I have a sword, so my auto-attacks should be powerful!"

Well, no. That's not how a Red Mage works. The main characteristic of a Red Mage is that he can use Black and White magic. Wearing a fancy hat and a sword as a catalyst doesn't make you a swordmaster. Especially if your main stat is INT.

But it's a sword. Yeah, but it's a mage.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Actually, you are able to auto-attack. Auto-attack does not remove Dualcast like the tooltip says. That being said, auto-attacks deal tiny damage, and that still leaves the question of use of the sword when not 80/80 (you don't because your DPS then tanks).

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The sword and the crystal are both used as a catalyst for casting magic. Because Red Mage is a mage.

Jack-of-all-trades, master of none is what defines the Red Mage. It already have powerful melee skills. Can't have everything.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I still think that my answer was appropriate considering that the thread is entitled "But it's a sword."

"I have a sword, so my auto-attacks should be powerful!"

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You're mischaracterizing the OP's post. The OP is basically saying he wants the sword to see actual use in combat, hence "poking the enemy between spells". He said nothing about the auto-attacks being powerful.

I brought up the weak auto's to illustrate that by design the job is built to discourage melee when not 80/80. Which I feel is a problem when the job is supposed to be a sword & spell hybrid.

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The main characteristic of a Red Mage is that he can use Black and White magic. Wearing a fancy hat and a sword as a catalyst doesn't make you a swordmaster. Especially if your main stat is INT.

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The sword is a a main characteristic of RDM, otherwise the job Sage would have never been invented. The job is able to equip swords for the purpose of hitting things with said sword. The catalyst thing was only made up because the devs were looking for something that was a staff but wasn't really a staff.

As for sword mastery, I agree that swordsmanship alone wouldn't carry a RDM, but that's why they have spells. Combining spells with melee swings would not only underline the fact that the job is a hybrid, but also help that RDM close the gap between themselves and a musclehead melee like a fighter.

The INT thing can easily be worked around by allowing melee strikes to scale with it. Dragon Age's Arcane Warrior basically works under that principle (INT to STR scaling). Other examples of hybrids that follow a similar rule are WoW's enhance shaman (spells scale with Agility) and retribution paladin (spell effects prior to Legion scaled with Strength).

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The sword and the crystal are both used as a catalyst for casting magic. Because Red Mage is a mage.

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And thus you use the "lol it has 'mage' in the name" argument, but worded differently.

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Jack-of-all-trades, master of none is what defines the Red Mage.

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And if we really were to go by this, RDM would be sent straight to the bench for EX primals and Savage. Which is why the job was rightfully implemented as DPS with some utility.

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It already have powerful melee skills. Can't have everything.

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You're missing the point. Sword use is restricted to mana being at 80/80, since using it at any other time is basically a DPS loss. The OP, much like myself, wants the sword to see more use. This isn't so much about the raw power of the sword, but how the gameplay outright discourages its use. And that has always been counter to the idea of a RDM, which is why we had the flame wars and name-calling back in FFXI for the same damn reason; instead of having to spam Cure/Refresh/Haste, now we're spamming Jolt/Verfire/Verthunder/Veraero/Verstone until we get the mana bar's permission to get into melee.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

You're mischaracterizing the OP's post. The OP is basically saying he wants the sword to see actual use in combat, hence "poking the enemy between spells". He said nothing about the auto-attacks being powerful.

I brought up the weak auto's to illustrate that by design the job is built to discourage melee when not 80/80. Which I feel is a problem when the job is supposed to be a sword & spell hybrid.

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Hybrid doesn't mean having a strict 50/50% rate in using swordsman and caster skills.

Besides "poking inbetween skills" means that, if OP isn't asking for auto-attacks, then it means he wants one or two oGCD to weave inbetween spells. But that would make RDM a "Melee caster DPS", and completly turn the use of Corps-a-corps and Displacement around, almost making them useless.

Alistaire said to me that this was a Final Fantasy game. Well, all Final Fantasy games are different. For instance, Dualcast wasn't even part of the series for Red Mages before FFV. FFXIV's Red Mage is primarily a caster, jumping in for a devastating melee combo enhanced by black and white mana.

I get that some people may want more melee action from the RDM. But not everyone does.


-I will not answer the rest of the post as my answers would literally be "see above"-

It'd be neat I think if in the future they did get a sort of stance option, allowing to do more melee with casting rather than the more casting with melee.

I find it really dishonest that, when drawn, the weapon is a sword, but the moment combat actually starts, it's a staff. The job's entire aesthetic advertises something that it is completely incapable of delivering.

The producer explicitly said that Red Mage wasn't their first choice, and that they were considering alternatives like Sage and an "original job". There was also the very tired, very frustrating nonsense that somehow XIV is very special and thus requires all jobs to be "reinterpreted" (see SMN). It's fairly clear to me that they just used an alternative job concept but put a Red Mage glamour over the top. I can only assume they did it this way because Red Mage is iconic; the hype for it would surely drive sales far more than Sage. The actual product delivered clearly didn't matter much.

XIV's Red Mage needs to be a close-quarters melee, support, and nuking hybrid if it is to be faithful to the name Red Mage. I'm choosing my words very carefully, because in XIV "melee" can apparently mean this jumping-in nonsense. "White Magic" can apparently be 95% damage dealing spells. "Black Magic" apparently requires ranged combat with a staff. Red Mage doesn't subscribe to these paradigms. Ultimately, if XIV can't deliver a faithful reproduction of classic Red Mage then it shouldn't do Red Mage. For me, a dodgy copy is infinitely worse than having Red Mage at all.

I actually vastly prefer XI's rendition of Red Mage. Yes, it's very unfortunate that in groups I tend to be backline - that's not because I'm incapable of meleeing, it's just because I have to be very, very busy as Red Mage. If I'm in a party with other support, or where two players can share support roles, Red Mage in XI is perfectly capable of being a hybrid - and when it happens, it's immensely satisfying. I'm not saying XI's Red Mage doesn't have faults - the fact that support is so in demand biases the playerbase to using Red Mage in an exclusively support context more often than not - but at least I can. I don't think XIV's Red Mage is actually capable, even if the opportunity presents itself.

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Originally Posted by Tila

It'd be neat I think if in the future they did get a sort of stance option, allowing to do more melee with casting rather than the more casting with melee.

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I was thinking exactly this the other day. Red mage should have a melee stance and a caster stance. Basically, caster stance use magic until mp gets low then swap to melee stance to continue to do damage while gaining mp back then swap back. You could have even have corp-a-corp automatically swap you to melee stance and displacement swap you to caster stance. No real thought into it but just an idea that they could have taken instead of the one we got.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Yeah, the current RDM is nothing short of a mockery. Hell, I'm pretty sure WHM and MNK got more love than RDM... the dev team spent too much time on "How can we make it flashy" and completely forgot to make it FUN.

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I have to disagree completely. I'm finding Red Mage *lots* of fun. Just because it doesn't appeal to *you,* doesn't mean they forgot to make it fun. They just didn't make it exactly what your precious little snowflake mind wants it to be.

Spamming spells until an arbitrary gatekeeper gives me a pass to zoom into melee for 1-2-3 doesn't make a job fun, yet that's exactly what RDM is: A boringass wait in a queue until you are"permitted" to get to the actual fun part! It's like going to the candy store, only when you get there you arbitrarily have to run five laps before getting one treat! It's disgusting!

I will never understand people that insist sitting in the back line until your 80/80 queue pops and you can get to the actually fun part is enjoyable. I signed up on RDM to blend spell and steel, not to play a lazy BLM!

If you want a more sword oriented option the paladin with the shieldless glamour is a viable alternative. It has enough casting of mini holy and its self heals to probably give you the flare you want.

This game makes a very clear distinction between melee dps and caster dps, there was no way RDM was going to be a job that perfectly straddled that line. We were either going to get a melee dps that had some sort of gated casting mechanic, or what we currently have, a caster dps with gated melee abilities. I actually prefer it this way. I also enjoy the fact that the way the melee ability works sort of mirrors actual fencing. You keep your distance until you see an opening and then instantly strike. The idea that they wouldn't put the job in just because they couldn't do it exactly the way it had been in previous iterations also seems silly to me. Plenty of people are enjoying it and if one is offended by the current RDM build, one can just not play the job.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

-snip-

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A lot of jobs are actually like that. You build up ressources that you burn on some combo or powerful ability.
If you don't like this kind of gameplay, then don't play these jobs.

Regarding your desire to play slashy-slashy with a sword... Damn, that's a great idea. If only Stormblood came with such a job.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Regarding your desire to play slashy-slashy with a sword... Damn, that's a great idea. If only Stormblood came with such a job.

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Because clearly what I mean when I say I want a job that meshes steel and spell seamlessly I of course mean I want pure swordcraft. Clearly your capability to acknowledge such minute details is flawless.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Because clearly what I mean when I say I want a job that meshes steel and spell seamlessly I of course mean I want pure swordcraft. Clearly your capability to acknowledge such minute details is flawless.

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RDM casts spells, and then do some sword play. If it was Spell>Sword>Spell>Sword..., then it'd have been a melee caster, alone in its own category. It's not. Too bad for you.
Again, you like slashing more than casting. Well, FFXIV's RDM is more casting and less fencing. Deal with it, because it's stay like this at least until the next expansion.

I kinda feel bad that their are so many jobs that use the sword cause i was so hoping that the gunblade would eventually be a job weapon for a upcoming job, but because so many jobs use a blade i doubt it will happen now :(

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Originally Posted by PogueX

I kinda feel bad that their are so many jobs that use the sword cause i was so hoping that the gunblade would eventually be a job weapon for a upcoming job, but because so many jobs use a blade i doubt it will happen now :(

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Oh yay... i cant stop thinking about a gunblade as well since i saw the 275 Anima of Mchs the first time - which absolutly reminds me of Squalls Griever : /

For all the people who are saying red mages are casters and deal with it, note that red mages in lore used both equally are proficient at both equally just not in ff14.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Hybrid doesn't mean having a strict 50/50% rate in using swordsman and caster skills.

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Hybrid also doesn't mean having things solely for the sake of having them (like a sword that is barely used).

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But that would make RDM a "Melee caster DPS", and completly turn the use of Corps-a-corps and Displacement around, almost making them useless.

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Which wouldn't be a bad thing, seeing that rotational mobility is a bad idea in a game that has things like telegraphs and ground-targeted effects to deal with in combat. It looks cool, but it's not a good element of gameplay. Not being forced to always use Displacement and Corps would simply mean the job has mobility to be used when appropriate, making those skills no different than Elusive Jump/Spineshatter Dive/Repelling Shot/Shoulder Tackle/Plunge.

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FFXIV's Red Mage is primarily a caster, jumping in for a token melee combo that is useless without black and white mana.

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Fixed it for you. The system in place is clearly built for a caster, and the melee is an afterthought that reeks of being added at the last minute. You could take out Riposte, Zwerchhau and Redoublement, replace them with a ranged mana dump ability and see next to no difference in gameplay.

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I get that some people may want more melee action from the RDM. But not everyone does.

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Much like some are happy being a turret that sometimes gets to jump around, but not everyone is.

I don't know about you, but I'm measuring what the devs gave us against other MMO hybrids, some of which have a much better handle from both design and gameplay than our "wannabe BLM with a sword that needlessly hops around". As I've mentioned before, I had hoped the devs would learn from those other hybrids instead of essentially going "lolno".

I dont mind at all the rdm's mechanics. I find it fun to play.

What i really wish to see is to be able to fill up the gauge more often (every 10 seconds?) So that you really use 50% spells and swords.

Offcourse we need to cut the potency of each spell

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Originally Posted by Seferex

What i really wish to see is to be able to fill up the gauge more often (every 10 seconds?) So that you really use 50% spells and swords.

Of course we need to cut the potency of each spell

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Assuming we want to keep the current systems (mana, dual cast), this would be a step in the right direction. I'd take it a step further by increasing weaponskill damage, and giving the combo a bonus to spellcasting speed (instant cast if you finish the combo with Redoublement). So your rotation would be Riposte => Zwerchhau => Redoublement => instant spell (and follow procs as they come) when in melee, and Jolt => instant spells (follow procs as they come) when at range.

I've also toyed with the idea of making Spellblade into a toggle, and add a ranged counterpart called Chainspell. Spellblade would require 30/30 mana to activate and is consumed when you use your combo. Chainspell would require 50/50 mana to activate, and for the duration all spells cast have no cast time (you'd get 1-second duration per 10/10 mana upon activation).

All we can ask now, is for small fixes...

So the idea is to make the whole "combo" cost 30 (15+10+5?) mana, and each Redoublement will grant you a stack of "say a stack name".
When you reach 3 stacks you can cast flare/holy

Then if you make flare/holy aoe(with reduced damage as the real flare and holy), you can add the effect to Mulinel that gives the same stack as Redoublement. So that when you use 3 mulinel you can finish with flare/holy.

In ending, need to increase the CD of the ingage/disendage skills by 15 seconds (since a whole melee rotation is 5 seconds and you will need to build 10 more mana).
In this way, during the rotation, you will cast for about 40 seconds and will melee for 15 seconds. Still better than now that is 35 seconds cast and 5 seconds melee.
Offcourse will need to reduce a little the spell's potency to compensate the usage of 2 more combos in melee.

With these very small fix, i think we can make the rdm more fun for all. Since it is not going to change at all the mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

It's a step above this, but not by much. And yes, that guy doesn't use his sword for anything at all.

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Wand-swords, yo.

On topic:

I AA between casts. If your ping is low, there's no gap for the AA to go off between the cast and the following instant. The damage bonus is less than neglible, however; I just tend to be in AA range in preparation for Displacement. Unless there's a specific reasons not to, I use both Displacement and Corps-a-corps as on-cooldown bonus damage like Blunt Arrow and Repelling Shot; I find the paired casts to be plenty of mobility in themselves.

So far (at level 60) RDM has about the complexity you'd expect from getting a third- or halfway to level cap. The burst is crunchy, and the mild versatility comes in quite handy in 4-DPS PotD runs. I'm enjoying it more than my gutted HW mains, but that's not saying much.

Having played RDM is pretty much every single Final Fantasy... This is definitely one of the better ways they could have done RDM. People keep throwing around the "Not proficient in melee in FFXIV." Take a look at I, III, and V. RDM there could stab a guy. He could do it fairly well. But his magical nukes were still more powerful, especially if you exploited the elemental weaknesses. Here, no elements. Ergo, no weakness. So, yeah, we have more of a focus on magic, to build up to said melee. That's not to say you still can't stab a guy. It's not optimal, no. But neither was spamming the Fight command during any of the older FFs outside of trash anyway. As soon as a boss appeared, you started slinging spells. Why is that suddenly an issue that RDM here is doing what RDMs have been doing for 30 years? We even have a bloody heal spell that can be dualcasted, and it doesn't completely suck. And, we can spam it so much more than a PLD can use Clemency. How, I ask, are any of these things a "terrible affront to all things Red Mage"?

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Originally Posted by Isala

People keep throwing around the "Not proficient in melee in FFXIV." Take a look at I, III, and V. RDM there could stab a guy. He could do it fairly well. But his magical nukes were still more powerful, especially if you exploited the elemental weaknesses. Here, no elements. Ergo, no weakness. So, yeah, we have more of a focus on magic, to build up to said melee. That's not to say you still can't stab a guy. It's not optimal, no. But neither was spamming the Fight command during any of the older FFs outside of trash anyway. As soon as a boss appeared, you started slinging spells. Why is that suddenly an issue that RDM here is doing what RDMs have been doing for 30 years?

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Limitations of turn-based combat. The rules change when you go into any form of live combat, because turn-based combat has no way to mechanically tie melee and magic (which is why in the console FFs RDM was mediocre, since the lack of hybrid mechanics left spells and sword segregated from one another). Using Fight one turn did not do anything for your spells the next turn. Likewise, using spells didn't have any effects on the Fight command. Overall, there's mechanics that come into play in live combat that turn-based combat do not have.

To help illustrate this, here's some examples:

- Melee skills reduce or negate cast times
- Melee skills allow the next spell to deal higher damage
- Melee skills alter the effect/behavior of the next spell cast
- Stacking effect/buff from melee attacks that reduces the amount of MP spent by the next spell cast
- Attack spells weakening the target to melee strikes
- Attack spells placing lingering buffs that enhance melee strikes for a set duration

All of these are sword & spell hybrid mechanics, but none can be used in a game like FFI, III or V, as turn-based combat does not support them. Which is why you got the most bang for your buck by having the RDM cast spells in those games. The console FFs and MMOs are two completely different animals and cannot be approached the same way.

As a side note, what makes this that much more grating to witness is that FFXIV has a built-in combo system that was ripe for any of the above-mentioned mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I don't know about you, but I'm measuring what the devs gave us against other MMO hybrids, some of which have a much better handle from both design and gameplay than our "wannabe BLM with a sword that needlessly hops around". As I've mentioned before, I had hoped the devs would learn from those other hybrids instead of essentially going "lolno".

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Egads, you're negative.

You keep claiming other games did hybrids better, but never source anything.

In EQ hybrid classes were generally deemed 75% one class (Warrior mostly), and 25% another - they were wildly successful even though casting WASNT their primary role. It's pretty close to what RDM is in here, Just reversed. Hell, even in DND your hybrid folks tend to lean one way instead of the other. going truly 50/50 just gimps your character a large number of levels.

The notion that the melee abilities were just shoehorned in is ridiculous. They also serve the purpose of being gap closers / creators, adding to their usefulness. While in Melee they included a high DPS combo to execute. How nice! I personally find the melee combo's inclusion to be super fun and rewarding. It also encourages me to try to find the fastest way to build mana so I can do it again!

We all understand that there are people here that wanted something different than what's been presented here for RDM. The fact is it's impossible to please everyone and this is what they came up with. The Vitriol about this game's incarnation of RDM won't lead anywhere except for the production of excess salt stores. It certainly won't change the class.

I'll echo what others have said: "Sorry you don't like RDM, why not try something else to see if you like that instead?"

ITT: People who cite previous implementations of RDM as support for their ideal FFXIV implementation (despite the implementation differing each and every time), except when other previous implementations don't support their ideal FFXIV implementation. Those are no good because reasons.

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Originally Posted by Klongol

I'll echo what others have said: "Sorry you don't like RDM, why not try something else to see if you like that instead?"

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Unfortunately for me the red mage wields a rapier which fits my characters lore but the way it plays does not. I honestly wanted a pure fencer job like the one in Bravely Second but that's not going to happen now with fancy pants in the game now. The best thing I can do as well as anybody else who wants some sort of change is to make the devs aware. I'm not asking much I just want melee skills to be more integrated with the job not some combo you use at the end.

I still think they should have added more use for the sword by allowing it to create magic slash waves as range attacks like how Ramza inflused his Rapier with magic energy.

Honestly, where is everyone pulling this 50% caster 50% swordsman crap from? A RDM is actually 33% WHM 33% BLM and 33% Fighter. And if you look at the numbers and (damage and usage) it feels like we're hitting about that percentage with our attacks. I'm sorry If it doesn't match YOUR personal perfect idea of what a RDM should be according to whatever idea you've concocted. But this is what we get for RDM and it's fine as is. If you you want a 50/50 split, start asking for a Rune Fencer/Mystic Knight.