How much WHM DPS is enough?

I was thinking about the WHM changes, and if the WHM was able to push out DPS equivalent to a DPS class, and was also able to push out enough HPS to cover healing, would that make WHM an interesting choice to a SCH or AST?

"Interesting choice"? I think the proposed changes are interesting as they are. I'll have to play it a while to see if I like it...

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Originally Posted by Amnesia

"Interesting choice"? I think the proposed changes are interesting as they are. I'll have to play it a while to see if I like it...

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185 pages (and counting) of feedback begs to differ.

As far as DPS goes, it would have to offset the DPS gains from Balance and Stratagem, which would mean a truck load.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

I was thinking about the WHM changes, and if the WHM was able to push out DPS equivalent to a DPS class, and was also able to push out enough HPS to cover healing, would that make WHM an interesting choice to a SCH or AST?

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It's not all about personal DPS though, they would have to do enough DPS to equal the extra DPS the group would gain from Chain Strategem and The Balance.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

I was thinking about the WHM changes, and if the WHM was able to push out DPS equivalent to a DPS class, and was also able to push out enough HPS to cover healing, would that make WHM an interesting choice to a SCH or AST?

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How are we supposed to dps when our new lily mechanic only works on a 20% proc of cure I or cure II? Same goes with confessions for our new lvl 70 skill and our reduction of cooldown for Asylum and Assize oh... sorry. Those are 20% off a critical cure I or cure II. If we're supposed to ignore this lily mechanic to DPS... why even give it to us in the first place?

Let's put it like this: a balance has the potential for a 10% damage buff on 8 people. This can effectively be added directly onto the AST's personal DPS because without the AST that damage wouldn't exist. For a WHM to match that it would have to natively do, in surplus of AST, 10% of the cumulative DPS of 8 people.

There is a LOT of maths which would have to be done to factor in uptime for Balance, what happens if you get Arrow, party composition and DPS values, etc. But just know that it comes down to "a lot".

The calculation looks something like this:

The Balance takes total raid damage and adds 10% of its value on top. Then, there is a percent up-time that you can calculate the long-term average of using probability.

Multiply that +10% value by the up-time percent to get a new value.

Whatever that new value is needs to be the difference between what a WHM can do personally and what an AST can do personally.

What if WHM personal DPS (without healing) is best in the game?

Just take the MCH opener as an example. My friend often hits 23K WFs. WF is 25% of the damage he dealt so...115K total. 10% balance that is 11,500 damage, 20% is 23,000, enhanced 30% is 34,500. And this is only for the 15 second WF, whereas balance is 30 seconds. So if using a spread balance in a raid you're effectively doing more than 50,000 damage at the minimum. WHM can't really compete.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

I was thinking about the WHM changes, and if the WHM was able to push out DPS equivalent to a DPS class, and was also able to push out enough HPS to cover healing, would that make WHM an interesting choice to a SCH or AST?

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That is kind of the silver lining. WHM+AST, with the AST main healing, could potentially be a good option for pumping out healer DPS.

Someone made a very detailed analysis here: Stormblood Healer DPS Breakdown

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

That is kind of the silver lining. WHM+AST, with the AST main healing, could potentially be a good option for pumping out healer DPS.

Someone made a very detailed analysis here: Stormblood Healer DPS Breakdown

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I think people will opt for the Chain Stratagem because of crit procs though. Examples: MNK Chakra, AST Lightspeed, etc.

Its also kind of a shame that the situation has been reduced to: always bring AST, now we choose between WHM and SCH

And so the question I pose for that scenario is, why not just bring 2 ASTs?

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Originally Posted by Mahkii

I think people will opt for the Chain Stratagem because of crit procs though. Examples: MNK Chakra, AST Lightspeed, etc.

Its also kind of a shame that the situation has been reduced to: always bring AST, now we choose between WHM and SCH

And so the question I pose for that scenario is, why not just bring 2 ASTs?

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What you describe is why I think we're more likely to see AST+SCH reinforced even more than 3.4 & 3.5. I don't really think it will be a decision between WHM and SCH, truthfully.

But there is that possibility...

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

What if WHM personal DPS (without healing) is best in the game?

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It would mean nothing compared to the others' superior ability to cause a raid to clear faster. As the gap widens, the trailing healer would be disallowed or difficult to maintain even in increasingly casual groups.

I am definitely not one to say how much would be needed, but two things to keep in mind if they could.

1. It would destroy the "pure healer" identity SE is shooting for.
2. It would all come solely from the WHM, meaning that the DPS won't see their own numbers bolster, and instead see a WHM single-handedly destroy the raid.

It still isn't the raid utility players are asking for. There is utility SE can give WHMs and still keep their identity intact, but if the meta wants damage boosts, it will likely always be seen inferior to what SCH and AST brings. What I was thinking was after getting the lily system where it needs to be, is making their AoE stoneskin cause some kind of helpful debuff should the shielded player be struck, or something along the lines that negates TP cost for everyone for several seconds when they use Divine Benison.

Do any peeps who raid think something like this would be helpful?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Do any peeps who raid think something like this would be helpful?

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To be completely honest, with all melees having access to Goad, the existence of Spire (there is a reason this is always made Royal Road fodder), and BRD and MCH not needing to gimp their own DPS in order to give TP to the party, I don't think it'd be much helpful. Only time it would be helpful is if someone died to a mechanic, but most of the time that's where Goad gets used unless there's a moment in which the physicals are spamming their AoEs. PLDs rework into half-casting job will probably ease the job's horrible TP issues that have plagued it in the past, and everyone who uses TP is also getting access to Invigorate now.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

What if WHM personal DPS (without healing) is best in the game?

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Better than the other healers? It doesn't matter, you take an AST/SCH anyway unless the DPS gap between the WHM and their replacement outweighs the raid DPS increase of the other two AND the AST/SCH can solo heal content.

Better than every other job? First of all, they get nerfed, because DPS classes would rightfully be ticked off. Still, though, you wouldn't take them as a DPS slot because you'd kill your LB generation, and you wouldn't take them as a healer slot unless the other healer is solo healing, albeit a much safer version of solo healing.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

It still isn't the raid utility players are asking for. There is utility SE can give WHMs and still keep their identity intact, but if the meta wants damage boosts, it will likely always be seen inferior to what SCH and AST brings. What I was thinking was after getting the lily system where it needs to be, is making their AoE stoneskin cause some kind of helpful debuff should the shielded player be struck, or something along the lines that negates TP cost for everyone for several seconds when they use Divine Benison.

Do any peeps who raid think something like this would be helpful?

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TP issues tend to be pretty binary - either you need TP to keep up any sort of damage, or having more is of no benefit whatsoever.

The only ways I could see this working are if somebody is dying a lot (to which the better solution is probably stop doing that), or if there were more AoE phases in 4.0 raids, which do add a meaningful TP drain to DPS, but I don't see that as especially likely. We also are already going to be really good in those circumstances, because Thin Air>Holy spam is one of the few ways WHM has to be somewhat competitive with Balance if the circumstances call for it. It also would really, REALLY suck for SCH because all they get to do in that situation is Bane>Shadow Flare>Twiddle Thumbs.

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Originally Posted by Menae

TP issues tend to be pretty binary - either you need TP to keep up any sort of damage, or having more is of no benefit whatsoever.

The only ways I could see this working are if somebody is dying a lot (to which the better solution is probably stop doing that), or if there were more AoE phases in 4.0 raids, which do add a meaningful TP drain to DPS, but I don't see that as especially likely. We also are already going to be really good in those circumstances, because Thin Air>Holy spam is one of the few ways WHM has to be somewhat competitive with Balance if the circumstances call for it. It also would really, REALLY suck for SCH because all they get to do in that situation is Bane>Shadow Flare>Twiddle Thumbs.

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Raise utility is nice. 4.0 WHM sort of brings that being able to do it without costing MP. They literally can erase a death other than the weakness, and perhaps that is another thing they could give them. The ability to dispel weakness, and/or raise a player without it. That would give them some utility definitely 'pure healer' based and at least somewhat useful.
A re-raise ability might be helpful as well. Casted on healers and tanks would increase survival rate so long as the duration lasts until the player is in KO status. Another idea is reflect, which dishes back a certain percentage of damage inflicted on the player or group. The lily system could be used in accordance to this. 1 lily=reflect physical dmg, 2 lily=reflect magic damage. 3 lily=reflect both magic and physical damage+insert buff here. It needs to be rewarding. REALLY rewarding.

I'm just trying to think of anything useful without ramping up the DMG of other players.

Stratagem is looking to be roughly 5% crit increase for 15 seconds without solid mathing I cant really 100% say but I would be willing to assume balance beats a 5% chance to crit just due to it being a guaranteed buff and for double the duration. Is stratagem nice? Yes. Will it outperform even one single balance spread much less if theres two asts working in tandem to keep it up full time? I doubt it. Add to that that whm has no ability to directly buff party damage at all and its looking like ast is just stepping on both healers throats in this regard. Neither healers solo damage capabilities will fill that gap either so I think both whm and sch are kinda in an iffy spot at the moment unless something is done.

Stratagem is ~3% party dps providing the crit multiplier works like in 3.0.

A low DPS party would be better off with WHM + NoctAst

A coordinated high DPS party would be better off DiAST + SCH

Just seems like both parties would be better off duo ast given the hit to the LB bar wasn't crippling progress if its really only 3%.

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Originally Posted by MsTanya

Just seems like both parties would be better off duo ast given the hit to the LB bar wasn't crippling progress if its really only 3%.

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It would be if an AST + SCH combo didn't buy each healer so much extra dps uptime given good coordination. (And mainly due to the fairy)

Probably another reason why AST ST dps us so much lower as well.

I don't really see WHM in an off healer role. Its core strength is main healing. On top of that most SCH and AST contributions can be done while healing making AST a strong main healer. WHM doesn't just need higher dps. It needs enough to counter all the advantages the others bring and frankly SCH isn't its main competition. Now maybe AST can push SCH out of the meta but honestly I suspect that the WHM isn't going to have enough time to dps to make up the difference over the course of most fights.

Actually if you math it out Ast single target dps is up compared to now. Keeping up combust1/2 constantly and fulltime malefic 2 spam is 5040 potency per minute currently. SB theyre gonna be doing combust 2 and fulltime malefic 3 spam plus earthly dominance which is 5720 potency per minute and that's not even counting a single lord card. (not included cuz rng but max is 2/minute for 600 extra potency). These values are in a vacuum of course with no healing at all used but the potential is there.

I may be wrong but from what I mathed if you include the loss of 10% Clerics and the 5% cast reduction of Diurnal AST is down to 95 potency/s from 103 potency/s.

SCH seems to be up to 103 potency/s from 95 potency/s without counting Energy Drains.

Making me math today, for the sake of offhealer role I'm doing the calculations purely off of the gcd itself. Current sch=5676 with clerics on. Current ast= 5962ppm w/o balance with clerics.
Projected Stormblood values, purely based off of potency...Sch=6150 Ast=5720 still w/o drains or balance or lord. So scholars gain about 8% damage and astro lost about 4%. Even if you get just one lord card per minute which is fair to say will happen due to sleeve draw and bad rng with regular draw...it will put you at 6020. So you still make it out slightly ahead.

I would like more dps for dungeons/solo content. lose of the dps is what bothers me the most, as i don't raid and hybrid healers where always my favorite.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

I was thinking about the WHM changes, and if the WHM was able to push out DPS equivalent to a DPS class, and was also able to push out enough HPS to cover healing, would that make WHM an interesting choice to a SCH or AST?

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It may come close (assuming they had regular chances to just stand around and do DPS*), but it would also make them seriously OP in all other content (open world, dungeons, PotD, Aquaplois), so it's not really a solution. So no, the only way to truly 'balance*' the healers, for ALL content, is to give all of them comparable healing power, similar DPS potential, and unique utility; this way they can all cover their primary role, can all kill things in a reasonable time, and can all offer an 'interesting choice' (as you put it) when it comes to group compositions.

* Even a single target balance offers +20% for 30 seconds, meaning that any WHM would have to find at least 30 * 0.2 = 6 seconds to do nothing but DPS for each balance an AST draws, and longer for Extended / Expanded Balance.

* Note: This does not mean all healers need to be the same, or that one won't be marginally better for a specific encounter than another, it simply means that there needs to be an actual choice; unlike now where you lose nothing by taking an AST over a WHM.

I'd actually be on board with WHM being a dual mega healer/ DPS powerhouse in lieu of utility. Switching between pure healing power and insane holy magic damage would be pretty fun, though it'd never happen.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I'd actually be on board with WHM being a dual mega healer/ DPS powerhouse in lieu of utility. Switching between pure healing power and insane holy magic damage would be pretty fun, though it'd never happen.

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Ironically we're a lot closer to the "insane magic damage" part than the strong pure healer fantasy SE talked about. WHM has a pretty comfortable lead on both the other healers for average potency per GCD output, and with SCH's mp costs going up so drastically, that may really hurt their sustain. Whereas WHM mp management, on the other hand, is improving.

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

It may come close (assuming they had regular chances to just stand around and do DPS*), but it would also make them seriously OP in all other content (open world, dungeons, PotD, Aquaplois), so it's not really a solution. So no, the only way to truly 'balance*' the healers, for ALL content, is to give all of them comparable healing power, similar DPS potential, and unique utility; this way they can all cover their primary role, can all kill things in a reasonable time, and can all offer an 'interesting choice' (as you put it) when it comes to group compositions.

* Even a single target balance offers +20% for 30 seconds, meaning that any WHM would have to find at least 30 * 0.2 = 6 seconds to do nothing but DPS for each balance an AST draws, and longer for Extended / Expanded Balance.

* Note: This does not mean all healers need to be the same, or that one won't be marginally better for a specific encounter than another, it simply means that there needs to be an actual choice; unlike now where you lose nothing by taking an AST over a WHM.

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Interesting that you phrase it that way. I believe the changes to Cleric Stance and Aero gave WHM back 4-5 GCDs per minute, which would amount to about the same. Not sure it's an accurate measure though.

Let's play with Alex Creator Savage parse numbers... 2500-3000dps seems to be the top range? So I think 10k is a reasonable estimate for 4 dps? 10k * 20% * half a minute = 1kdps sustained needed from WHM to make up for the loss of a Balance.

It gets a little trickier trying to find a WHM in a top clear time, but at #25 you can find a WHM doing 2400dps. Worth noting that the AST also did 1900dps.
Even if you scrub the influence of balance from the numbers, it's well above the 1k threshold. https://www.fflogs.com/reports/BM3RD...pe=damage-done

So, I think it may actually be possible that WHM personal dps will be adequate to bridge the gap, given the GCDs we've been given back. It doesn't change that Lily's and Confessions are likely to be almost entirely ignored.

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Originally Posted by Kethic

It gets a little trickier trying to find a WHM in a top clear time, but at #25 you can find a WHM doing 2400dps. Worth noting that the AST also did 1900dps.
Even if you scrub the influence of balance from the numbers, it's well above the 1k threshold. https://www.fflogs.com/reports/BM3RD...pe=damage-done

So, I think it may actually be possible that WHM personal dps will be adequate to bridge the gap, given the GCDs we've been given back.

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If only people looked at the Monk "issue" as even-handedly...
...and if Monk hadn't been nerfed to such an extent as to now trail in personal dps, given latest tooltips, all excused in the name of adding particularly slipshod RNG mechanics and the lowest-value raid DPS contributor yet (.83% over time).

Everyone accepts that above a certain party DPS threshold, x personal DPS gain may be inferior to y party dps modifier bonuses. Yet few seem to acknowledge the opposite. So long as the particularly high DPS scales at the same rate as the party average, balance is entirely possible. The only issue is that the personal DPS gains that are balanced against raid modifiers in an 8-man will be relatively stronger in party sizes of less than 8, such as dungeon or solo content. Not that there's a Savage mode for any light party content anyways...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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I'll be honest; I'm afraid all this attention is going to result in a WHM nerf once the actual dps numbers start to come in. If they change our mechanics, we're going to have to pay for it somewhere, and dps is all we have left.

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Originally Posted by Kethic

etc etc....
So, I think it may actually be possible that WHM personal dps will be adequate to bridge the gap, given the GCDs we've been given back. It doesn't change that Lily's and Confessions are likely to be almost entirely ignored.

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I'm sorry but that's not how you do a comparison,

The WHM have to bring ADDITIONAL DPS to offset the Balance effect, you can't just say "Yup Balance brings an extra XXX dps, as long WHM deals above XXX, WHM is better!!".

Don't forget the bringer of Balance, the AST, is also doing damage, so in order for WHM to be better than AST with Balance, the dps of the WHM have to be higher than the AST's damage + Balance dps combined.

In your case, the WHM is higher than the AST by 500, but your math states Balance brings an additional 1k dps (I'm pretty sure this is incorrect), so bringing the WHM still results in a net 500 dps loss.

Napkin math for Balance:

Assuming the best case scenario of a lucky god for easy calculation:
AoE balance of 40 seconds every 2 minutes (due to Celestial Opposition).
Means a balance uptime of 33%.

33% of 10% damage increase = 3.33% overall raid dps increase.

So let's say a group's rDPS is 15000, the balance provided an additional of 15000*0.033 =approx 500 dps.

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

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yeah, i realized the flaw right before bed. i'll re-poke the numbers today.

I think if you give WHM the DPS of a DPS, you risk replacing DPS. The SCH approach might work: increase WHM healing potential while in full DPS rotation.

Imagine if Regen got a potency buff, could generate lilies on HP restoral / reduce cds / give confession (similar to cure in SB), and could be used off gcd similar to the way energy drain's CD works. Then, buff lily CD reduction to be a bit more meaningful​

WHM would be a monster, having a substantial aptitude for delivering healing without halting it's DPS. I could see a WHM/NAST combo working very well, where WHM DPSes and helps fill the NASTs hps. SCH / WHM could be a decent option as well, as both classes could push substantial DPS and healing/mitigation at the same time w/o worrying about balance rng.

Looking at 3.x numbers, WHM frequently approached the average sustained dps of a DPS when they tried. I agree it would be OP in DF, but if that's already the status quo, and we're not getting any other utility, seems rude to break the trend.

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Originally Posted by winsock

I think if you give WHM the DPS of a DPS, you risk replacing DPS. The SCH approach might work: increase WHM healing potential while in full DPS rotation.

Imagine if Regen got a potency buff, could generate lilies on HP restoral / reduce cds / give confession (similar to cure in SB), and could be used off gcd similar to the way energy drain's CD works. Then, buff lily CD reduction to be a bit more meaningful​

WHM would be a monster, having a substantial aptitude for delivering healing without halting it's DPS. I could see a WHM/NAST combo working very well, where WHM DPSes and helps fill the NASTs hps. SCH / WHM could be a decent option as well, as both classes could push substantial DPS and healing/mitigation at the same time w/o worrying about balance rng.

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That's actually more of an argument for why WHM needs to have a buff unique to WHM (Presence of Mind or Cleric Stance as a group skill?) so it's on par with the other two classes.