Please change Cleric Stance cooldown to on-deactivate

I've been playing with a lot of lag lately for... some reason. I frankly don't know if it's my ISP's fault, my router's fault, my wifi card's fault, but it's the worst it's been in years.

It's a little weird from a design perspective that CS goes on cooldown when you deactivate it, locking you out of healing when you're a healer. Specifically your role is to heal. But this is particularly frustrating when playing with lag.

The number of times I've accidentally killed my party specifically because I double-tapped CS trying to take it off, unsure if the command even went through due to latency, has risen from 'never' to 'at least four times a week.' Killing my party by putting it on by accident was maybe once every two weeks.

Everyone makes mistakes, I'm not immune to that, nor am I ashamed to admit it. But at least with respect to CS it seems really counter-intuitive as a gameplay mechanic.

The effect I suppose is fine, but for something that has such a major impact it's strange that it doesn't go on cooldown when deactivated.

AST cards and spread go on cooldown when tossed, which makes perfect sense. Cleric stance going on cooldown when deactivated makes perfect sense. Right now it seems like artificial difficulty/complexity that is particularly punishing when have lag (which is often). Right now it's a barrier to doing what I want to do in the game, considering the safest option for me is to not use CS, but everyone insists I do or I'm garbage at my job.

So right now I feel punished by this particular game mechanic when a pretty simple change would fix most of it. Lag notwithstanding.

Slightly related, the fact that we can't right-click it off means if you get Amnesia with it on in Palace, your party is pretty heavily crippled.

You can edit your post to go past the 1000 character limit. That way you don't need multiple posts for what could fit in one. :p

And on the topic of Amnesia in PotD, you can easily avoid that problem by turning off Cleric Stance before you move to the next floor.

This is intentional - using Cleric Stance was meant to carry risk, and the cooldown on activation ensures that it's harder to get back into "healing mode". Yoshida has said he doesn't like Cleric Stance in its current state though, so who knows - maybe Stormblood will change it.

It's better to have Cleric Stance cool down on activation.

It forces you to commit to your decision to go on the offense, and allows you to deactivate, instant heal, and reactivate it in one fluid sequence. If it were to cool down on deactivation instead, there would be a lot of wasted GCDs waiting for it to cool down, since nuking without it on is a waste of MP.

Umm don't use cs then. Complaining that it has a CD. Most skills do.

Previous 3 posts: He's not complaining about the cooldown. He's actually requesting that it gets an additional cooldown on deactivation. Cooldown on activation isn't the problem, it's lag/latency and repeatedly clicking, not being sure if the game will actually remove it, only to have it be disabled and immediately activated again. Adding a small cooldown on deactivation would help reduce instances of accidentally reactivating when you need to switch back to healing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hasrat

Previous 3 posts: He's not complaining about the cooldown. He's actually requesting that it gets an additional cooldown on deactivation.

---

The thread title is "Please change Cleric Stance cooldown to on-deactivate"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hasrat

Previous 3 posts: He's not complaining about the cooldown. He's actually requesting that it gets an additional cooldown on deactivation. Cooldown on activation isn't the problem, it's lag/latency and repeatedly clicking, not being sure if the game will actually remove it, only to have it be disabled and immediately activated again. Adding a small cooldown on deactivation would help reduce instances of accidentally reactivating when you need to switch back to healing.

---

This idea isn't bad either. It helps in case players butterfinger the cleric's stance button and double tap it by accident

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

The thread title is "Please change Cleric Stance cooldown to on-deactivate"

---

So, didn't bother actually reading any of the thread content. Got it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hasrat

So, didn't bother actually reading any of the thread content. Got it.

---

The rest of the post agrees with the thread title. Quit deflecting.

I note that you're playing via WiFi, that's a problem. It will introduce unnecessary latency that will delay communication of commands between your client & the server. That can be lethal, especially if you are healing!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hasrat

So, didn't bother actually reading any of the thread content. Got it.

---

I get the same problem, with input lag, and pressing the button doesnt always work last week a tank died cos of it. Pressed button twice and nothing happened, and it cost the psrty a wipe in cases where swtching needs to be very fast to heal effectively on time and seconds matter. In my opinion the whole thing needs to be changed.

And I think your right it should be on cd to go into it instead. Or not have it at all and have some other mechanic. The reason I think it was made like that is cos it was never intended to be used the way it is thats why it causes problems.

Just like STR/VIT was streamlined for tanks, I want them to remove CS and simply make healer attack power based on MND, then to balance it, reduce the damage power of all healer nukes by about 20~ to account for the reduced risk of not having nerfed healing.

Would be an unnecessary nerf to Cleric just because your internet is bad lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Accelerating

Would be an unnecessary nerf to Cleric just because your internet is bad lol.

---

Yes but funny as it may seem to some, others do have lag problems and can make window too tight, I mean for those that do have problems, I think everyone needs to be considered really.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

I note that you're playing via WiFi, that's a problem. It will introduce unnecessary latency that will delay communication of commands between your client & the server. That can be lethal, especially if you are healing!

---

It doesnt actually make that much difference for me, but I do find it happens alot when boss is doing some kind of special effect. I turned the effects off party members,and still get it and my connection is fibre optic

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aniond

Umm don't use cs then. Complaining that it has a CD. Most skills do.

---

Most people seem to think that's grounds for kicking from parties, so that isn't really an option.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hasrat

Previous 3 posts: He's not complaining about the cooldown. He's actually requesting that it gets an additional cooldown on deactivation. Cooldown on activation isn't the problem, it's lag/latency and repeatedly clicking, not being sure if the game will actually remove it, only to have it be disabled and immediately activated again. Adding a small cooldown on deactivation would help reduce instances of accidentally reactivating when you need to switch back to healing.

---

I'm actually not requesting an additional cooldown on deactivation, but honestly that would be fine, too. Basically anything that stops these frequent lag-caused accidents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

It's better to have Cleric Stance cool down on activation.

It forces you to commit to your decision to go on the offense, and allows you to deactivate, instant heal, and reactivate it in one fluid sequence. If it were to cool down on deactivation instead, there would be a lot of wasted GCDs waiting for it to cool down, since nuking without it on is a waste of MP.

---

Every time I deactivate cleric stance it's because I need to spend several GCDs healing everyone up. I have never at any point in my two years of healing in this game wished that I could go back into cleric stance sooner.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

I note that you're playing via WiFi, that's a problem. It will introduce unnecessary latency that will delay communication of commands between your client & the server. That can be lethal, especially if you are healing!

---

I've discussed running wiring through the house to get a direct connection, but it either requires seventy feet of CAT5 running through several rooms, or drilling through walls for who-knows-how-long. So, maybe someday soon, but right now it's really a toss-up as to whether it's Comcast (I know it's Comcast, it's always Comcast) or the router or the wifi.

I don't like using wifi either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Accelerating

Would be an unnecessary nerf to Cleric just because your internet is bad lol.

---

That's a little insensitive, I'm not the only one who plays this game who has bad internet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Orudeon

Every time I deactivate cleric stance it's because I need to spend several GCDs healing everyone up. I have never at any point in my two years of healing in this game wished that I could go back into cleric stance sooner.

---

Outside of a raid context, you can heal entire dungeons with just stance-off,EssentialDignity,stance-on, which is less than one GCD; or with stance-off,instant GCD heal, stance-on, which is over one GCD but still way less than five seconds. In a raid/trial context, the fights are quite structured, your stance windows are dictated by the fight script, and once you're familiar with the fight, you should know ahead of time when you should not be in cleric stance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Orudeon

That's a little insensitive, I'm not the only one who plays this game who has bad internet.

---

Ayy sorry that my comment was "a little insensitive". Didn't mean to hurt you in your safe space. But I'll have to agree. How could I ever not agree? When people don't the hardware necessary to play this game, it is on SE to fix that problem! I hope that they remove all oGCD's since they can be a pain in the ass with an 2000MS+ ping, I mean I'm not the only one who plays this game who has bad internet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Accelerating

Would be an unnecessary nerf to Cleric just because your internet is bad lol.

---

How is it a nerf at all, really? It doesn't have to be the same 5 second cooldown. It's already instant, would it really hurt to just knock it down to 1-2 seconds? It's still an oGCD, doesn't affect any of those skills, and would still work effectively the same as long as the deactivation cooldown is less than GCD time.

Giving it the same 5 second cooldown as activation would be a nerf, yes, sure, but that seems excessive for what would actually solve the issues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hasrat

It's already instant, would it really hurt to just knock it down to 1-2 seconds?

---

That would still nerf the damage -> oGCD heal -> damage thingy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hasrat

but that seems excessive for what would actually solve the issues.

---

Again, the issue is your shitty internet, not Cleric the way Cleric works.

While I understand the frustration that your internet is causing you, putting the cooldown on deactivation instead of activation basically makes using CS easy mode. The point of having the activation CD is to make healers be strategic in when/where they decide to do damage. If the CD is placed on deactivation, you never have to worry about that. Oops, I popped Cleric right before a tank buster? NBD, I can now instantly remove CS and heal/shield him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by justaminuet

While I understand the frustration that your internet is causing you, putting the cooldown on deactivation instead of activation basically makes using CS easy mode. The point of having the activation CD is to make healers be strategic in when/where they decide to do damage. If the CD is placed on deactivation, you never have to worry about that. Oops, I popped Cleric right before a tank buster? NBD, I can now instantly remove CS and heal/shield him.

---

Well I press the wrong button sometimes and have actually pressed it before a tank buster its not really about strategy in such cases. Hmm im not sure if cleric was created to make people think strategically either. It says more about your not meant to heal easily while your dpsing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feyona

I press the wrong button sometimes

---

I can understand the frustration, but this isn't a problem with Cleric Stance.
If someone's pressing buttons unintentionally, the solutions are better button layouts or more practice, not a recode of the ability being activated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Accelerating

Would be an unnecessary nerf to Cleric just because your internet is bad lol.

---

It's not really a nerf though. If they swapped the cd to on deactivation rather than activation, it would stop any issues like the OP has pointed out, but furthermore it would also help alleviate the oh shit moments that commonly occur using cleric stance.

Also, as someone else in the thread noted earlier. Probably never is the history of the game has someone thought, oh shit, I really need to get them deeps down again, after deactivating cleric stance. Mostly because if you deactivate cleric stance it's probably because your attention is needed on healing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by craized

It's not really a nerf though. If they swapped the cd to on deactivation rather than activation, it would stop any issues like the OP has pointed out, but furthermore it would also help alleviate the oh shit moments that commonly occur using cleric stance.

Also, as someone else in the thread noted earlier. Probably never is the history of the game has someone thought, oh shit, I really need to get them deeps down again, after deactivating cleric stance. Mostly because if you deactivate cleric stance it's probably because your attention is needed on healing.

---

well I hate cleric any and Im not afraid to admit it. Its the most awkward mechanic in the game. Hope SE does something better for healers cos if it stays the same Im not sure I even want SB

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by craized

Also, as someone else in the thread noted earlier. Probably never is the history of the game has someone thought, oh shit, I really need to get them deeps down again, after deactivating cleric stance. Mostly because if you deactivate cleric stance it's probably because your attention is needed on healing.

---

That is the only way top Raiders play though because of how you can weave oGCD heals without losing any DPS GCD'S.

Being locked out of Clerics for a few seconds would not allow the class to flow very well in that regard.

You pretty much summed it up yourself unfortunately Mr OP.

The CD on removing cleric stance isn't really a weird design decision. It's a punishment mechanic to force healers to weigh up the risk of DPSing vs whatever incoming damage is heading the groups way.

Judge Xero has the right of it as well, locking a healer out of CS would be just as jarring but obviously far less punishing. Aka it'd remove the risk factor that SE want the ability to have and just make it clunkier to use leaving a DPS heavy healer standing there with nothing to do for a couple of GCDs.

The safest way to drop CS also ties in with the neatest option for SE to fix this issue. Simply put, get into the habit of queueing cleric stance off the back of another instant, EG if you have a 3 or 4 second window for dots, cleric stance up > Combust II > Combust > Queue Cleric Stance off. That gives you a window of about a second to watch for CS dropping before you can do anything else anyway and it makes it much harder to accidentally queue and reactivate cleric stance.

And of course, the easy route for SE to fix this is simply to not allow Cleric Stance to queue with itself =(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

I can understand the frustration, but this isn't a problem with Cleric Stance.
If someone's pressing buttons unintentionally, the solutions are better button layouts or more practice, not a recode of the ability being activated.

---

Yes bu there isnt such a high risk debilitating penalty with any other button being press at the wrong time ... Oh but those that never make mistakes like that its fine I guess :)

I have another idea for how to deal with this issue on cleric stance:
Give it a 1.5s cast time (1s is too little to be able to cancel it).

I'd mean you can't really weave un-cleric, ogcd heal, cleric anymore, but that would be a reasonable trade-off. A cast time also provides a message that you're committing to something. This also gives a more clear difference in visuals between activating and deactivating cleric.

EDIT:
I'm also of the opinion that cleric stance shouldn't be a thing for all 3 healers, there should be some variation in how these trade-offs are dealt with between the healers to create a bit more identity.

The cooldown on activation is needed and should stay.

But if you want a CD on deactivation as well I don't really care.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by winsock

The cooldown on activation is needed and should stay.

---

needed? for what?

i could agree with you if healer dps was really just a bonus: but with the laughable low heal requirements and the expectation that healers should dps in all the free time, why punish them with the cleric cooldown?
either they should let healers dps freely or do something that they actually have to heal. as long as stance dancing is the norm, i see no reason for the punishment wich the cleric cooldown is.

risk and reward is fine and all, but why should i do i have to do risks ALL THE TIME?

I don't mind having to switch to cleric stance to dps but the cooldown is annoying and silly. I'm very much in favor of the. Removing cleric stance, adjust healer damage to work off of mind and balancing from there.

So what I'm seeing is thus: Make healers even easier to play! Or am I missing something here?

Changing CS will remove something that separates good healers with great healers. The cooldown on activation has already been explained yet its point seems to be lost on people. "Why should I have to take a risk every time, when healing requirements are so low?" Because you are stepping outside your primary role so there has to be something you are losing or risking. It's like a tank who does a lower Enmity but higher DPS/support oriented combo, or a DPS who uses an ability that dies not directly effect their DPS (mantra etc.). They are stepping outside their "primary role" and are sacrificing the thing that helps them in that role more so than the thing they are doing. Damage still helps tanks hold enmity, supporting allies can increase the overall DPS of the party, anf killing things makes healing easier, but they are not the thing their role is "supposed" to focus on. And since healers don't have rotations that need to be strictly followed to maximize their main purpose, they instead have a form of risk they need to deal with and manage.

Does what I'm saying make sense? Why should a healer be allowed to freely jump between healing and DPS without some form of risk? I'm waiting for someone to give me an actual reason other than "it's unnecessary" because that's purely a matter of opinion and has no impact on game play itself.

And if we want to instead put the 5 sec cooldown on deactivation? Yeah, healing requirements are not generally high enough to lock us out of dpsing.

Also, we have abilities that can be used to help prolong CS (bene, regen, asylum, etc.)


As for the ridiculous idea that healers ahould use MND instead if INT, that is still floating around... So you just want redundancy in the stats? If they were to do this they should just fuse INT and MND because then INT would be useless, as it would effect far fewer spells than MND would. And while they're at it, why not fuse STR and DEX? Or STR and VIT? Or VIT and PIE? Why should I have to decide on what stats I need, if people can't even be bothered to learn to properly use their class?

And can someone explain to me how making MND an OP stat for healers would help with the gameplay?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VanilleFang

So what I'm seeing is thus: Make healers even easier to play! Or am I missing something here?

---

nope, you are missing nothing. making it easier is the whole point of removing cleric and scaling from mind.

Quote:

---

Changing CS will remove something that separates good healers with great healers.

---

again that's exactly the reason why they want to make the classes easier, like making enochian and blood of the dragon perma-buffs. removing cleric and scaling damage from mind fits in this changes. this change will not make bad players suddenly good, but the gap between the good and the great will be smaller.

Quote:

---

The cooldown on activation has already been explained yet its point seems to be lost on people. "Why should I have to take a risk every time, when healing requirements are so low?" Because you are stepping outside your primary role so there has to be something you are losing or risking. It's like a tank who does a lower Enmity but higher DPS/support oriented combo, or a DPS who uses an ability that dies not directly effect their DPS (mantra etc.). They are stepping outside their "primary role" and are sacrificing the thing that helps them in that role more so than the thing they are doing. Damage still helps tanks hold enmity, supporting allies can increase the overall DPS of the party, anf killing things makes healing easier, but they are not the thing their role is "supposed" to focus on. And since healers don't have rotations that need to be strictly followed to maximize their main purpose, they instead have a form of risk they need to deal with and manage.

---

your example with the tank is bad, because a tank don't lose the ability to tank when he is not in tank stance, but a healer lose the ability to heal in cleric. if a tank loses ALL enmity skills AND his defensive cooldowns outside of tank stance, then the example would be correct. but that's not the case.

Quote:

---

Does what I'm saying make sense? Why should a healer be allowed to freely jump between healing and DPS without some form of risk? I'm waiting for someone to give me an actual reason other than "it's unnecessary" because that's purely a matter of opinion and has no impact on game play itself.

---

of course it's a matter of opinion. my opinion: i have social anxiety and it REALLY bothers me when someone dies because of my fault, struggling with cleric again. at the same time i want to push the dps, because nobody should think i am "lazy" or something. at the same i don't like to dps at all. it's a chore i have to do while i play healer, but i really like healing.
making it easier to switch between dps and healing would really help me.

however, you don't give any reason other than "it's necessary" too, so your opinion is also just your opinion i guess...

for the gameplay aspect: weaving in dps skills far more often without that clunky cleric stance would indeed make playing healer much more fluent (and fun). the healer dps of the average player should go up, so they can design fights with healer dps in mind - they have failed to deliever a proper challange for healers anyway.

I never claimed it was necessary. The point of the 5 second cooldown when you activate CS is to give healers an option to deal damage, at the risk of not being able to heal as well. The reason it is in place is because healers have to understand the fight properly to know when they should dps, and to help healers utilize their entire lot more efficiently. Without the 5 seconds on activation two separate problems could emergency.



1. If the 5 second cooldown is added on to deactivation healers would be FAR less flexable weaving in and out of CS with the current healing needs. For example: I will be spamming dps spell and I notice my regen has fallen off the tank. I drop CS, cast Regen, recast CS. Now if there was a 5 second cooldown I had to wait for AFTER regen? I would be locked into healing when it isn't needed effectively making me useless. Healers would have to plan when it's best to HEAL rather than plan when it is best NOT TO HEAL. It would be a massive tonal shift in the role itself, as healing would feel like the "secondary" function of the class. You would wait to drop CS for when you won't be locked into it without healing, rather than making sure everyone is healed so you can do something else

Or 2. If there is no cooldown at all then healing would lose some of its challenge and possibly become incredibly boring. CS would be FAR too forgiving, and it would be much harder for people to learn proper skill usages and balancing DPS and healing. Players would be able to more easily get away with being lazy and not paying attention to the fight.


The only reasons I see why people want it changed are personal reasons. I'm thinking of the role as a whole, not only about how I feel when I play.

As for my tank example? I explained it. Damage gives enmity, killing things makes healing easier. You risk losing hate if you improperly stop using your enmity combo. Healers do not lose the ability to heal in CS. There are options to heal even while in CS, so that's a complete exaggeration on your part.

They want the classes to be easier to learn and play, but they don't want to take away all challenge and skill. Healers are already ridiculously easy to play and learn, but they take skill and practice to master. Changing CS and MND would remove all skill involved in playing a healer, outside properly skill use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tint

needed? for what?

i could agree with you if healer dps was really just a bonus: but with the laughable low heal requirements and the expectation that healers should dps in all the free time, why punish them with the cleric cooldown?

---

You complain about "laughable" requirements, then argue that the job should be made easier?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VanilleFang

If there is no cooldown at all then healing would lose some of its challenge and possibly become incredibly boring. CS would be FAR too forgiving, and it would be much harder for people to learn proper skill usages and balancing DPS and healing. Players would be able to more easily get away with being lazy and not paying attention to the fight.

---

yeah, maybe it will get more boring. but i would'nt say that healer dps is exciting the way it is now. cleric is clunky and the whole dps part is just pressing 1-2-3-3-3-3-3 repeat... and yes, making it more forgiving is the whole point. why should i even being punished for doing dps? the game forces me to do so with the low heal requirements and the community even more with their expectations. i can understand the punishment when healer dps really was just a bonus - but it has become the standard. and the other thing... i just can't follow you here. making it easier to throw dps skills between your heals makes it harder to balance dps and healing? what? people get away with "being lazy" when they fill every gcd with either healing or damage? really, i can't follow you here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VanilleFang

As for my tank example? I explained it. Damage gives enmity, killing things makes healing easier. You risk losing hate if you improperly stop using your enmity combo. Healers do not lose the ability to heal in CS. There are options to heal even while in CS, so that's a complete exaggeration on your part.

---

the point is you still can use your enmity combo while in damage stance. yo still can use your defensive cooldowns either. tank stance gets you some bonus enmity, some bonus mitigation and it lowers your damage output a bit.
but you can do damage in tank stance and you can tank without tank stance.
as a healer you can't do that. you can't heal in cleric, except for benediction and your fairy. so yeah, it's not completely impossible xD but however, you can use your HoTs before you enter cleric, sure, like you can establish high enmity before dropping tank stance. but what when someone gets hit suddenly? you simply can't heal them. what when an add spawns or the boss casts a tankbuster? you just grab the add and pop a cooldown.
you lose your ability to heal in cleric and the ability to deal damage out of cleric, while a tank never loses the ability to get enmity, mitigate damage or deal damage.

so are tanks lazy? because they don't have to pay attention to the fight, right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by winsock

You complain about "laughable" requirements, then argue that the job should be made easier?

---

exactly^^ laughable low heal requirements leading to much cleric uptime. but stance dancing is harder to achieve than straight healing, wich means the game is harder when the heal requirements are low. okay, someone could say low heal requirements are already easy, wich is somehow true, but nobody wants the healer staying around. that's not easy, that's playing the game wrong.
so, they can make it easier by increasing the heal requirements, wich would be my prefered way, but let's be honest - that will not happen. the other way is to make it easier to fill the downtime with dps by removing the whole stance dancing aspect.

---------------------------

but what about an inbetween solution? the damage skills scale from mind, but cleric stance stays in place with it's increased damage and lowered healing effect, maybe new balanced. then the great healers still can stance dance and achieve much better reults, but the not so good healers can throw some dps skills wihtout worrying too much to let people die.