Dps As Healer

Well, looks like Yoshi P said it. You heal, and then you dps if you want to.

He said he doesn't like Cleric Stance. A healer is a healer. But if they took it away alot of people would get very upset.

Kind of took me by surprise. I thought he said that healers should do DPS if they can earlier. Now it sounded like he doesn't like that idea.
I'm confused.

Thank you Yoshi for backing up my position lol. I don't DPS as a healer, we are there to heal not do damage.

I don't think he can do much about cleric stance at this stage without wiping out the Duty Finder queues.

The war truly is eternal...

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Main Class: Scholar

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http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...7593505136.jpg

You are talking about the same person that decided that the solution for AST problems for this expansion was giving him so many buffs that people would take it instead of WHM. I don't trust his judgement on class balancing since this Q&A.

If Yoshi-p doesn't like it, it means nothing to be honest. He can also have an opinion. Having the option to do it is still great and I highly doubt they'll remove it. Also, please let's not start all over again with this: If you don't want to DPS, don't do it, if you want to DPS do it. I personally think it's lazy to not to, but I wouldn't kick a healer for not doing it.

I like DPSing as a healer, and in particular quietly out-dpsing other party members. This is because once you have a hang of the stresses involved in healing a nasty fight, it becomes boring. There is a binary task to accomplish and nothing else to do healingwise. It would be nice if party HP affected DPS, or if high party DPS provoked greater enemy DPS (to make you need to heal more), or if I could increase party performance. Cintamani on Sophex for example rode me roughshod in the first month and it would be nice if it continued to do so once healers were better geared. But that's not how it works, so I'll set my eyes on DPSing harder.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Thank you Yoshi for backing up my position lol. I don't DPS as a healer, we are there to heal not do damage.

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Soooooo what do you do the x% of the time when you're not healing? Sure you don't have to DPS, but why wouldn't you? It makes the runs go faster and it gives you something to do that makes this more challenging. I just don't understand that "argument" of 'I dont have to so I won't'.

┬─┬ノ(ಠ_ಠノ) = (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ ....Would people just play however they want as a healer and stop worrying about what some random shmucks think healers should be played. Not in any way referring to Yoshida, but the general community.

Honestly the only reason I dps as a healer is because it's a lot less boring and I like to be helpful.

But if other healers wanna be lazy go for it. lol

I'm not going to bother picking a fight over it in a dungeon, but if a healer has the opportunity to do so and feels comfortable doing so, it's appreciated if they DPS to help speed up the run.

I mean Yoshida can say it but if the rest of your party decides agree on the vote dismiss it doesn't really save you.

But I'm sure we'll see more threads popping up by players who have been kicked from x primal or y raid filled with tons of "but yoshi said!" as if it's supposed to be law that dictates the playstyles of everyone they come across.

For the record I'm not in the habit of kicking non-dpsing healers but i do find it lazy if you're basically sitting there staring into space between heals because the tank is taking virtually no damage.

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Originally Posted by dayspring83

Soooooo what do you do the x% of the time when you're not healing?

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I use to refer to these as Butt Wagglers, since it was what they spent three quarters of fights doing. But WHM are going the way of the dodo, so I guess Heavy Breathers would be more appropriate?

This comment alone shouldn't dissuade people from trying to playing healer to its fullest potential - Heal when you need to heal, DPS when you get the opportunity to do so.

I will agree about my dislike of Cleric Stance though - I hate Cleric Stance for what it has done in fracturing the healer community as it has.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

If Yoshi-p doesn't like it, it means nothing to be honest. He can also have an opinion. Having the option to do it is still great and I highly doubt they'll remove it. Also, please let's not start all over again with this: If you don't want to DPS, don't do it, if you want to DPS do it. I personally think it's lazy to not to, but I wouldn't kick a healer for not doing it.

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This guy knows what's up. There's plenty of opportunity to DPS as a healer most of the time but it's not required of you as a healer. Play how you want. I play both ways, some days I DPS on my healer and others I don't and I've yet to have anyone complain.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

This comment alone shouldn't dissuade people from trying to playing healer to its fullest potential - Heal when you need to heal, DPS when you get the opportunity to do so.

I will agree about my dislike of Cleric Stance though - I hate Cleric Stance for what it has done in fracturing the healer community as it has.

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To be fair, Cleric Stance wouldn't be an issue if stuff actually hit harder and/or heal spells weren't so ridiculously potent. The current DPS meta is a byproduct of the content allowing for ample amounts of downtime where heal only healers literally do nothing. Yoshi can say whatever, but that mentality will not change until actual content changes.

The moment you take away cleric stance is the moment the duty finder will say adventurer in need changed to Healer for almost ever.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

To be fair, Cleric Stance wouldn't be an issue if stuff actually hit harder and/or heal spells weren't so ridiculously potent. The current DPS meta is a byproduct of the content allowing for ample amounts of downtime where heal only healers literally do nothing. Yoshi can say whatever, but that mentality will not change until actual content changes.

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+1 for agreement.

Time will tell if that happens or not. I wouldn't mind a shift towards a more healing intensive design, but that'll need some pretty hefty tweaks across the board for it to happen.

Just to clarify, I DO dps, and I'm pretty good at it. I just don't feel like it is required. If you're exhausted, sick, or just having a bad day, do not feel forced to dps. It's much better to keep the party alive, and go at whatever pace you want. Be comfortable when you have to be.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Just to clarify, I DO dps, and I'm pretty good at it. I just don't feel like it is required. If you're exhausted, sick, or just having a bad day, do not feel forced to dps. It's much better to keep the party alive, and go at whatever pace you want. Be comfortable when you have to be.

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Can I use this excuse to not keep BotD up? I'm having a bad day and it's just too much effort to manage all my oGCDs. What about defensive cooldowns? I just want to Fell Cleave for days and blowing Vengeance and Raw Intuition means more Fell Cleaves or Decimates.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

+1 for agreement.

Time will tell if that happens or not. I wouldn't mind a shift towards a more healing intensive design, but that'll need some pretty hefty tweaks across the board for it to happen.

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I would love a shift towards more healing intensive design. If you haven't attempted to heal in The Feat, I actually recommended it. Despite playing healers only sporadically, I love the sheer intensity and demand it requires. I couldn't turn on Cleric even if it were available. There is simply too much outgoing damage. It's entirely manageable but asks people to know their role well. If a similar philosophy were attempted overall, I firmly believe we'd see much less pushback for healers to DPS.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Can I use this excuse to not keep BotD up? I'm having a bad day and it's just too much effort to manage all my oGCDs. What about defensive cooldowns? I just want to Fell Cleave for days and blowing Vengeance and Raw Intuition means more Fell Cleaves or Decimates.

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Not doing damage as a DPS and focusing on DPS as a tank are not interchangeable with not DPSing as a healer. Excellent healers attack. Good healers keep the party alive. In any case, in case someone's having a bad day I never complain on things like Expert Roulette. Those are there to be friendly. If someone's having a bad day, just be nice.

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Originally Posted by NolLacnala

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...7593505136.jpg

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I was the highest DPS in dfs here and there, it is very easy to do sub 50 actually. Handing out DPS when you can makes things go quicker. Plus I do not see why you wouldn't... and now I figured out why that picture is there......

How in the world do you just heal as a SCH and not get board Bixillarla?

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Thank you Yoshi for backing up my position lol. I don't DPS as a healer, we are there to heal not do damage.

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ANYTIME you are over the cap, as in you are gear sync, EoS can handle 80-100% of the healing (depending on df/bosses, sometimes you may have to drop it) but in most cases if you are over geared you do not need to. I saw someone streaning me that said I was 60% or so of total healing and 80% of that came form eos in void ark, I was pretty much 100% cleric cept drooping it for a quick spell here and there.

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Originally Posted by PondHollow

Not doing damage as a DPS and focusing on DPS as a tank are not comparable to not DPSing as a healer. Excellent healers attack. Good healers keep the party alive.

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No player can be classified as good if they ignore a third of their toolkit and spend half the fight standing around doing nothing. By technical definition, a tank only has to maintain aggro. I can easily do that by spamming Flash. Not using cooldowns does not mean I'll lose hate. It only makes the job harder for the healer. Likewise, my only requirement as a DPS is to deal damage. There is not stipulation on how much damage that entails.

This has been an ongoing debate on the healer forum. Someone made a video where she did Xelphatol with FC members and literally spent 80% of the dungeon jumping around the map and spamming emotes. Her contributions were that low. Does this sound like a good player?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

No player can be classified as good if they ignore a third of their toolkit and spend half the fight standing around doing nothing. By technical definition, a tank only has to maintain aggro. I can easily do that by spamming Flash. Not using cooldowns does not mean I'll lose hate. It only makes the job harder for the healer. Likewise, my only requirement as a DPS is to deal damage. There is not stipulation on how much damage that entails.

This has been an ongoing debate on the healer forum. Someone made a video where she did Xelphatol with FC members and literally spent 80% of the dungeon jumping around the map and spamming emotes. Her contributions were that low. Does this sound like a good player?

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where is this? can i get a link?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

This has been an ongoing debate on the healer forum. Someone made a video where she did Xelphatol with FC members and literally spent 80% of the dungeon jumping around the map and spamming emotes. Her contributions were that low. Does this sound like a good player?

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If they didn't let anyone die then yeah, yeah they do sound like a good player.

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

If they didn't let anyone die then yeah, yeah they do sound like a good player.

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So the godly dps matchign buttons every 1-2 seconds is less then a good player then one that hits one every 5 minutes?

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

where is this? can i get a link?

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Was looking for it actually. Found it!

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

If they didn't let anyone die then yeah, yeah they do sound like a good player.

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Does this criteria apply to tanks? As per my example, a tank spamming Flash will maintain aggro. I guess that makes them a good player too.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Was looking for it actually. Found it!

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I actually wanted see the thread but this will do *watches*
can I have a link to where this was in a thread?

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

So the godly dps matchign buttons every 1-2 seconds is less then a good player then one that hits one every 5 minutes?

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Hyperbole really isn't a good way to argue your point.

I've seen newer players at least trying. What I mean by that is, that some people are not comfortable with turning on cleric stance, in most cases nothing happens for a long time but the moment a healer turns on cleric stance, all hell breaks loose. Most players feel very overwhelmed when that happens and just panic, leading to wipes that could of been avoided if that person would have trusted their skills a bit more.

However, while leveling alts, I find lots of healers that are new to the game, and experiencing exactly what I just explained, but instead of just standing around and waiting for s... to hit the fan, they are dps'ing without the cleric stance. Not saying that's a great thing, but I rather have people throwing their dots, aero's, stone's I/II/III, whatever the astro skills are called, than just standing around doing nothing, and if that makes newer players more secure till they fully learned the fights then I am all for it.

One thing I can't and won't tolerate so, are veteran players, that can't even do that or refuse to just do that. If a new player can do it, than veterans should be more then willing to throw their "dps" abilities without cleric stance on some mobs. I do agree that the first priority of a healer is healing, but if there's nothing to heal then please do something instead of just standing around, no matter how good or bad the group dps and tank is.

If he would see what's going on in DF/PF/RF lately he would change his mind real quick and would agree. I am still keeping my hopes up that in 4.0 we have a better solution for cleric stance.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

I actually wanted see the thread but this will do *watches*
can I have a link to where this was in a thread?

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Oh, in that case: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ew-perspective.

Healing has never been required. However, you've ALWAYS had ample time to do it, except maybe when you're all new to Ozma or an EX primal or something.

If you don't dps, you are contributing nothing for, in casual content, literally 50-70% of the instance. There's no reason to heal the tank when they're above ~70% health, they don't drop to that for like 20 seconds at a time, so why would you just stand there? That's not fun, you're not contributing anything except hitting a button every 20 seconds to keep someone alive, and you have completely ample time and ability to be doing something. Obviously we are there to heal, that doesn't mean we shouldn't do other stuff when there's absolutely no reason to be healing.

I'm all for healers having to heal a little more, but I thoroughly enjoy being able to dps here and there. I don't want to be a healbot. I get that some people do want to, and that's fine, but because you don't have to heal constantly in this game, you're doing nothing while everyone else in the party is hitting something every 2.5 seconds. It just doesn't work here. :\ I'd be happy if they amped up the healing enough that we still get to dps if we're good, but "omgz I'm just gonna heal cuz I'm a healurrr" people have to do something more frequently too.

Am I going to kick someone for it? No. Am I going to comment on it? Only if it's a sprout. But it's absolutely doing the bare minimum and that's rude to your party members. Tanks don't have to use cooldowns. Bards don't have to play MP songs when the healers are rezzing people left and right. But doing so makes you better at your job, because you're going above and beyond and there's really no reason for you not to do so except that you want to pay more attention to Netflix.

Bourne_Endeavor
Likewise, my only requirement as a DPS is to deal damage.

I personally have gotten into a "war" with people over something like this, as a DPS style main myself i personally like Classes more since they are more like what a RDM will be, jack of all trade with the cross skills and all. As you said a DPS is just there to add damage, no set amount either, heck most runs could just be Tank and Healer, the two DPS are there for nothing but a bit of added damage nothing more nothing less.
I say if a Healer wants to attack for some DPS go for it, people need to remember the person playing that character can do whatever they want, THEY pay the sub, not you.

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

Hyperbole really isn't a good way to argue your point.

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Still a valid point, if your point is that no one dies = did a good job, then a monster dying 5 times slower should not be a problem, it still died and the DPS did his job.

For what it's worth, is there anywhere we can actually see this conversation being talked about?

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Originally Posted by Vorx

Bourne_Endeavor
Likewise, my only requirement as a DPS is to deal damage.

As you said a DPS is just there to add damage, no set amount either, the two DPS are there for nothing but a bit of added damage nothing more nothing less.
people need to remember the person playing that character can do whatever they want, THEY pay the sub, not you.

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Ok which of these two is it? If a dps is required to deal dmg, that means there is an requirement and the phrase "I pay my sub and I can do what I want" doesn't apply here. If the dps just stands around and does nothing, the same phrase would apply here but omits the requirement. You can't have both, doesn't matter if you are playing dps, heals or tank. Therefore a healer can't just say I only heal, because if there's nothing to heal, means they are standing around and the sub statement as well as the role requirements don't apply here at all. There would be a other "rule" that applies then?

Also following that logic, we would need to remove all team supportive skills, going by that example none of them add to the actual requirement: dps!

Brd & Mch should refuse playing ballad or swapping their little cannons to mp/tp replenishment because it doesn't add to the dps. In brd's case it's even worse, it lowers the dps and therefore he/she will not meet the requirement. SMN's should refuse helping out healers, raising in worst case scenario's both or single healers, OT and MT's and even DPS's because healers mp is that low, that any further healing & raising isn't an option, leading to multiple wipes in that case. Raise doesn't add to the SMN's dps and that's the requirement correct?

There's plenty of other examples, but I asking myself, based on your example and logic, would we even make it out of the front door or are we all standing at the spawn point because we are all paying our own sub and can do whatever we want?

I think removing Cleric Stance would be the one thing that would actually, finally drive me to quit the game.

Hell, disabling it in PvP made me seriously consider it.