A system revamp can not change Tanks or Healers so why do people keeping sayin it

I don't think its really possible to change what a tank or healer does in this game with a revamp to battle system. You cant change Argo generator, if you changed how flash , unleashed, or overpower was used it would change every single instanced in the game completely this would never happen.

You cant change defensive cool downs unless you just made them traits otherwise it would make things even less engaging form those whom say that tanking isnt engaging. Cant change combos the only thing you could do is maybe make it less buttons to press but they still would be at the core of tanking. Nor can you get rid of abilities like shield lob, unmend. There is no way to change any of these things other than changing the way tanking has been done sense the beginning of the game.

They would have to change every ability to mean something different which I dont think most tanks wont but could be wrong. The same goes for healers, you have to have aoe heals, you have to have big heals, regen heals etc. So why are people setting themselves up for disappointment, there is no way to redesign how a tank or healer works in this game witout changing how the game has worked so far. And I dont even want tank to be any different than it is now maybe thats just me , but I enjoy tankin how it is. I dont believe I saw to many people complaining about how tanking or healing was done in this game more so just a specific tank and a specific healer. So I sure hope that they dont change the way its done just to add some damage to pali , and some utility to whm.

Jeez stop. 4.0 hasn't arrived yet and stop crying.
I trust se so they might do something COOL.

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Originally Posted by Johaandr

Jeez stop. 4.0 hasn't arrived yet and stop crying.
I trust se so they might do something COOL.

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Im not crying it just basic logic, Im not even mad, but I see a lot of post on here going on about will see what the new revamp will do to the tanks. And the way the game is designed it really cant do very much at all. If you dont think tankin or healing is cool then some just may never think that it is because more so than dps healers and tanks have to be very similar ha screwed that up ha. At most aesthetics is the mane thing that they can change and thats about it. And again I dont think that those whom tank or heal actually want the way things are tanked or healed to change completely if it does then it may be more angry people than happy ones.

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Originally Posted by Johaandr

Jeez stop. 4.0 hasn't arrived yet and stop crying.
I trust se so they might do something COOL.

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nope

Yoshida: We’re not going to be rebuilding it from the ground up. We’re concentrating on two things with this revamp. During 3.x, the action rotation for high DPS became very complex. We saw a large gap form regarding DPS from skilled and technical players and more casual players and so we wanted to bring up the bottom. The second thing is that with FFXIV, lots of players use the controller, with the increase in actions, its hard for them to use all of the actions available. There aren’t enough ways to use these actions so we’re cutting the number of unused actions and combining similar actions to make the lvl 70 action number about the same as it is now.
Currently with a lot of the jobs, it’s clear that jobs have to monitor a lot of buff icons. We want to create job specific UIs to alleviate that and make monitoring those things easier. We’re going to balance, adjust, tweak and refine this UI right up to the release, so we probably can’t show you anything until May.
http://gamerescape.com/2017/02/18/fr...ss-conference/

Like 3.0 bard?

SaitoHajime the fanboys don't care.
What ever se will do they say its a gods blessing.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHajime

nope

Yoshida: We’re not going to be rebuilding it from the ground up. We’re concentrating on

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That sounds like something Id expect less buttons like maybe cutting combos or something from three abilities down to two , or something. But judging from that its exactly what Im saying that the core of what a tank or a healer is will not change. Even with balance if someone finds tanking boring they will still find it boring, which just makes me wonder why again people think that something major could come to a tank or healer to make it more appealing.

Let's wait and see what they intend to do instead of jumping the gun at this juncture. There's potential to shake up quite a bit between tweaks to the current combat and the addition of skills (and possible traits) when we get to level 70.

I am intrigued by what they intend to do with 4.0, though I'm also concerned given we haven't heard much concrete information on exactly what's changing. I'm holding onto any opinion until I get to see what exactly they have in mind for 4.0.

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Originally Posted by XSamsaraLotusX

SaitoHajime the fanboys don't care.
What ever se will do they say its a gods blessing.

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they expect all the wrongs things for a guy that wants to play it safe and not take risks when it comes to this game.

And how iys good?
Its not hard now why make it even more so.
They did say we will have the same amount of skills.

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Originally Posted by XSamsaraLotusX

Like 3.0 bard?

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I havent even finished leveling my bard for that very reason ha loved it up to 50, tried wm in potd just ruined it all for me I would hope its nothing of the sort like this but Im pretty sure they arent that crazy I hope haha.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHajime

they expect all the wrongs things for a guy that wants to play it safe and not take risks when it comes to this game.

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No they just dont care. What ever god SE do is good for them. Hey god cant do wrong can he.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

I havent even finished leveling my bard for that very reason ha loved it up to 50, tried wm in potd just ruined it all for me I would hope its nothing of the sort like this but Im pretty sure they arent that crazy I hope haha.

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Look the thing is what we as players think is good , what skills are good, is not what se think is good.

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Originally Posted by XSamsaraLotusX

Like 3.0 bard?

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Please do tell me whats wrong with 3.0 Bard?, if it's WM then don't bother.

Well take healers they could make clerics stance work similar to how bringing up pethotbar when summoning a pet. Click cleric stance and a dps hotbar pops up with those actions on there. Can change tanks too i.e Combine the abilities that are used in each stance, Fell Cleave/Inner Beast one button does x thing in each stance and again with Decimate/Steel cyclone.

Basically how AST works abilities do different things depending on the stance. Even rotations why do we need one for enmity and one for dps/mp etc. Why cant it be same rotation but does X thing in each stance. Yes decreases the buttons but also frees up space for new tank abilities to replace them.

idk why people are over hyping this lol, he has been pretty clear about what the battle changes are going to be about O.o it is skill consolidation and "balance". This isn't wow levels of toss out the old system and rework it from the ground up....and piss everyone off for months on end....levels of redesign. It is a ability/systems pass to bring certain things in line, such as; the need to have players level alternate jobs (past 15) to fully play their classes come end game, remove/consolidate skills with less use in order to fight bloat (no it doesn't mean 2 button combos for f#@k's sake, he already mentioned the main goal is to keep the numbers similar to lvl 60 come lvl 70), tune/remove secondary stats (fix parry and personally hoping ACC goes the way of the dodo), and bringing the current tank and healers "in line" with each other.

To me there are three things that they aim to rebalance for the better.

The skill gap with respect to maxing out DPS. The rotations became too complex for many - mostly because most gamers playing don't pay 100% attention and miss things in their rotation, which becomes a point of contention between players, and a turn off to many on both sides of the issue.

The extremely situational nature of certain skills that are almost never used, these skills either need to be done away with and their effects added elsewhere or be given a more active component that makes them more worth using.

Cross class skills. Some of the skills are essentially pointless, yet some become almost mandatory leading to a very select set of cross skills that people slot. Switching to role based cross skills instead of job/class based should improve the situation, but it remains to be seen.

I don't think they will alter the fundamental roles or style of the tanking or healing jobs, that would cause some major upset among players who play the rarer jobs in the game in any case.

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Originally Posted by Gumbercules

idk why people are over hyping this lol, he has been pretty clear about what the battle changes are going to be about O.o

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I think Yoshi using the term "revamp" is why people are confused. People assume revamp means remaking the combat system or changing how it functions on a fundamental level.

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Originally Posted by Gumbercules

idk why people are over hyping this lol, he has been pretty clear about what the battle changes are going to be about O.o it is skill consolidation and "balance". This isn't wow levels of

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your guess is as good as mine following mr happy thats pretty much exactly what he said as well. So when I see people sayin well dps got two jobs, but tanks and healers will get more balance and a revamp doesnt make any sense to me at all. Because these changes literally will effect every job in the game not just tanks and healers so essentially tanks and healers will get nothing in this expansion other than the same changes as everyone else.

And the majority of people will barely even notice the balance difference only those whom do high end content will actually notice the difference like I mentioned in another post in your day to day task in game you cant tell the difference in balance between each jobs, its only when you are pushing them to the limit that ud be able to see this.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

...your guess is as good as mine following mr happy thats pretty much exactly what he said as well. So when I see people sayin well dps got two jobs, but tanks and healers will get more balance and a revamp doesnt make any sense to me at all. Because these changes literally will effect every job in the game not just tanks and healers so essentially tanks and healers will get nothing in this expansion other than the same changes as everyone else...
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Well, yoshi has already hinted at tank balancing changes (namely in a lightly hinted war and sch nerf for healer side) But it will be a numbers/skills pass at best not a reinvention by any stretch of the imagination. The most extreme change I could see happening would be a survival nerf to dps tank stances just to reel in the tank meta outside of OT ing.

@seraf: Yeah maybe revamp was not the best word to use lol.

Still in an MMO environment number changes can come with considerable "change" to the overall system, but yeah do not expect things like your PLDs suddenly being able to match drk or war on aoe damage in 1:1 ratio. Bringing things in line will be more about giving them all their intended strength and weaknesses back, while attempting to keep em all viable (can argue they already are) at the lower lvls of gameplay.

think what Kosmos brought up will be the biggest chunk about the tuning, to bring the lowest and highest dps closer together since it seems that from their internal numbers the dps gaps are apparently massive enough to warrant this degree of tuning XD (ie when you get a DF grp where one of the dps is doing lvls of dps you remember said class doing in 130 gear at 50 etc :P)

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

To me there are three things that they aim to rebalance for the better.

The skill gap with respect to maxing out DPS. The rotations became too complex for many - mostly because most gamers playing don't pay 100% attention and miss things in their rotation, which becomes a point of .

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I def know this is coming and I do see some issues here, for pali those whom enjoy stone skin, you can even say for high end players like Ive seen some use cure when they are doing all tank parties that could be gone. For warrior the possibly loss of internal release will not make a lot of warriors happy, and also the fact that dark knight because it is a job essentially has nothing to offer the other two tanks.

You cant give any of the drk abilities to paladin or warrior not gona have warriors using shadow skin, etc same goes for astro has nothing to offer the other healers. If anything if they put eye for an eye in the pool it would make them even more powerful than before eye for an eye on top of cards or the reverse could be taking eye for an eye out of the pool. Leaving whm or blm without it, this could go many different ways and could actually end up backfiring on them so Im hoping that they at least give you the same niche options that some jobs had as a personal skill , so it want make people angery. Because I know taking some away will do just that warrior with no internal release just sounds sad.

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Originally Posted by Johaandr

Jeez stop. 4.0 hasn't arrived yet and stop crying.
I trust se so they might do something COOL.

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This is such a disappointing and white knight saturated argument.
'I trust Yoshi so everything will be fine".

Tanks and healers will not change. Nor will DPS. What Yoshi referred to as a revamp is more like mass pruning or changing the use of less popular battle skills. The battle system itself will stay mostly the same.

This refusal to believe anything bad could ever happen under Yoshi's nose is what made AST such an unbalanced mess for an entire expansion. When people were talking about how bad of an idea the job was, we had at least 10 more people saying it's perfectly fine. Sigh.

To be fair the playerbase keeps showing SE we don't need tanks and healers. New content out lets go 1 heal 1 tank or 2 tanks 1 heal etc. As regards to new players coming through on tank/healer, the s*** some of you guys give them in ARR dungeons it's no wonder we have less in those roles.

Both BLM and BRD were drastically changed by the addition of only two abilities. It wouldn't take a total over haul of the combat system to change any other class.

I dont think a nerf to SCH and WAR. I mostly see a buff to PLD, small buff to DRK and buffs to AST and WHM damage potential.

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Originally Posted by Wyldkat99

Both BLM and BRD were drastically changed by the addition of only two abilities. It wouldn't take a total over haul of the combat system to change any other class.

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Oh god the last thing I would want is for a pali to have to use a blood of the dragon type ability please no haha. We already have two stances some people barely feel comfortable getting out of tank stance its quite a learning process so Id hope they wouldnt do something crazy like that.

@ Masekase_Hurricane
Im not like that to new players even if I do a huge pull in leveling dungeon I know Im takin a risk and would never blame the healer I actually dont think Ive ever called out my healer in a negative way even tho I def could have at some points. I have said more to tanks Id say like use your tank stance etc, but I understand it is easy to forget sense you have to reapply it every single dungeon or instance. But you have a vaild point tho I think the number one reason people play dps over tank or healer is the lack of responsibility the same reason they turned off chat in the feast. I have a friend that was a tank main but went to dps for that very reason the pressure and responsibility of these roles. I myself will only heal certain things because I know some mechanics just simply kill people and I know if I cant keep pace then here come the trash talkers. So I do really believe that the pressure in the end is the main reason, but that still doesnt mean even if the jobs are similar that we dont deserve more tanks and dps now get 9 jobs to chose from.

I'm just hoping the revamp makes me actually want to play a dps class. All of them right now are just too complex for me to enjoy. I have no interest in finger gymnastics. I leave that to the ladies who like ladies. I don't find things like "you can only use this awesome ability during the so-many-seconds that you have this buff from this other ability" type of game play. I wanna hit buttons and I want stuff to happen and I want mobs to die :P

I know that sounds horribly simplistic, but I'm a pretty simple guy. Watching boss cast bars and my feet while keeping everyone alive and dpsing when it won't get someone killed, is complexity enough for me. That's why I stick to healing. WHM/SCH/AST is all the complexity I can handle right now.

One thing I really wanna see is multiple rank spells get condensed where possible (I know some ranks are very different from their priors). Like Stone, Stone II, and Stone III. Stone should be the spell. Stone II and Stone III should be traits that enhances Stone's damage. That way they just go inactive when you sync down instead of trying to use bad macros to downrank for you.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Oh god the last thing I would want is for a pali to have to use a blood of the dragon type ability please no haha. We already have two stances some people barely feel comfortable getting out of tank stance its quite a learning process so Id hope they wouldnt do something crazy like that.

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The whole thing about the PLD is supposed to be that it's a straightforward and simple tank. If they gave us a job mechanic I'd have to wonder what they actually want to do with the job.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

The whole thing about the PLD is supposed to be that it's a straightforward and simple tank. If they gave us a job mechanic I'd have to wonder what they actually want to do with the job.

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Dunno some of the old abilities from 1.0 are not bad

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http://www.final-fantasy-14.org/abil...&submit=Filter

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

The whole thing about the PLD is supposed to be that it's a straightforward and simple tank. If they gave us a job mechanic I'd have to wonder what they actually want to do with the job.

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I'd like them to put Physical and magical defense values on the shield about the same as the values for arm pieces to give PLD much more survivability, and add some traited boosts to resistance to status attacks, along with an enmity boost. PLD DPS sucks, and I have no issue with that as long as it's sufficient for Solo. But in party content, PLD should require much less healing effort to care for than WAR or DRK, that would set it apart. But, SE won't do that because they would be afraid that it would let PLDs overcome mechanics and generate complaints from other tanks about that - even though their DPS is significantly higher than PLD. As long as SE models everything on all 3 tanks and all 3 healers being almost identical in capability when in party content, then we won't see any revamp, and people will gravitate to the tank and healer that raid groups prefer.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

As long as SE models everything on all 3 tanks and all 3 healers being almost identical in capability when in party content, then we won't see any revamp, and people will gravitate to the tank and healer that raid groups prefer.

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From a design standpoint, all 3 tanks are fully capable of doing all the content. The issue comes from players perception as the "easiest/best" tank for what they're trying to do.

Take Savage A1, Faust DPS checks from back at launch. People refused to take Paladins for their lower DPS, almost always taking WAR or DRK to beat the enrage timer.
This wasn't a design issue, This was a gear issue. People were trying to clear a raid that they were barely meeting the absolute minimum requirements to clear. So those players figured out how to make up that shortfall, and that way was to only take the more DPS heavy Tanks and Healers.
Nothing mechanically wrong with the Paladin, nor any design flaw in the raid. Just players attempting to rush through content as fast as they possibly can, instead of stepping back and gearing up a little more.

The same can be seen in 4 mans, people preferring DRK/WAR or SCH/WH because they provide more DPS and thus a slightly faster run.
Its all about players wanting to push through absolutely everything at the highest possible speed by any means necessary.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

The same can be seen in 4 mans, people preferring DRK/WAR or SCH/WH because they provide more DPS and thus a slightly faster run.
Its all about players wanting to push through absolutely everything at the highest possible speed by any means necessary.

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This is one thing I just do not understand, why anyone playing a game would want to get it over with as quickly as possible like it was nasty medicine. Oh well.

I understand the point about balance, but I look at it this way if PLD was significantly stronger on defense and resistance, the lack of DPS from the tank could be made up for by healers who don't have to nurse the tank as much.

The problem is though that by balancing things as they have, they homogenize the roles, and that actually leads to disatisfied players. I know balancing is a complex thing to accomplish, but to be honest, if balance leads to homogenization, then SE should go back and find another way to balance that doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Derio

and buffs to AST and WHM damage potential.

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No thanks; there are 9 other DPS classes I can play in Stormblood already. I'd much prefer if the solution to "fixing" WAR and SCH effectiveness isn't just to turn the other jobs into OP DPS machines as well.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

No thanks; there are 9 other DPS classes I can play in Stormblood already. I'd much prefer if the solution to "fixing" WAR and SCH effectiveness isn't just to turn the other jobs into OP DPS machines as well.

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Thank you for saying this. The biggest thing SE could do for the game is break the MOAR DPS meta. Since they are adding 2 new DPS with Storm Blood, perhaps they intend to rebalance parties with 5/10 players - light party being 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 dps (full being 2 tanks, 2 healers and 6 DPS). If tank and healer DPS were lower, and tanks focused on holding hate and surviving, while healers were more focused on healing, debuffing and buffing it would break the DPS meta that currently grinds down tanks and healers.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I'd like them to put Physical and magical defense values on the shield about the same as the values for arm pieces to give PLD much more survivability, and add some traited boosts to .

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If SE doesnt give pali shield oath at level 30 instead of 40 then there seriously a major issue with how they see things and I would say they have failed with any attempt if they dont change this , even tho its low level its pretty insane that at this point in the game that they havent switched them yet.

I am sure that many of players have tried paladin and maybe quit it outright simply due to this stupidity on the devs part makes zero sense at all, thats one of the biggest flaws of dev in the game imo. To me its already plenty of ways to fix pali with the kit they already have, 2000 k clemency is ridiculous at least cut that in half, take shield swipe off gcd. Cut down the cool down of hallow ground to 3 in a half or four mins. IF they want it to be more defensive then that would def do it, there cds are to long , and give it some freaking aoe cut the cool down of spirits as well.

Just a thought I had... What if they nerfed the scholar healing faerie? I keep seeing people say they can AFK a dungeon or pure dps a dungeon cause the faerie does all the healing. Well, why not nerf the faerie then? Not the dps one, but the healing one. Or do they both heal? I admit I don't know much about scholar.

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Originally Posted by Amariel34

Just a thought I had... What if they nerfed the scholar healing faerie? I keep seeing people say they can AFK a dungeon or pure dps a dungeon cause the faerie does all the healing. Well, why not nerf the faerie then? Not the dps one, but the healing one. Or do they both heal? I admit I don't know much about scholar.

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they both heal. just have different abilities

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Originally Posted by SaitoHajime

they both heal. just have different abilities

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Oh, okay. Then why not nerf both? Either less potent healing or make their healing trigger less often?

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

I don't think its really possible to change what a tank or healer does in this game with a revamp to battle system.

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Because it... is possible?

As it currently stands, in most dungeons, holding hate is effortless, and healing is effortless. There are exceptions if you're significantly under-geared (as a tank), or dealing with particularly derp-ish DD (as a healer), but generally speaking, the actual tanking and healing is quite routine.

It would be VERY easy for SE to change that. Their changes wouldn't need to be retroactive, either; they could put a penalty on enmity generation in level 60+ content, for example, and scale the monster damage higher to make healers work a bit harder. These changes would refocus tanking and healing on tanking and healing, rather than pumping out as much damage as possible while loosely paying attention to the role you're supposedly playing.

You having a distinct lack of imagination doesn't mean something isn't possible

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Originally Posted by Amariel34

Oh, okay. Then why not nerf both? Either less potent healing or make their healing trigger less often?

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the thing with the healing trigger is, you can tell them when to use an ability/heal. I think they heal when youre at less than 50% HP with it off. I'm not too sure about that part, I don't really play sch to when exactly when they heal without obey on.