How to make the 3rd raid difficulty work

We all know what will happen if they add any item to that difficulty.
"Buuuuuh It's too haaaard, lower the difficulty or send me the item via mogpost pleeeease!"
So what about just leaving it as it should be, like ScoB savage: pure challenge, with success and title as reward for people to just walk around with it with the pride of having downed it. This way we can have our challenge (finally) without casual to come cry over what they can't do. This will also give a sens in trying to gear ourself with the best gear in slot, to get the savage gear, because you will need all those extra point of stat for the fights and you won't have to think that you will need to throw it away later for another better one.
Also, please, never nerf it. Never add echo to it. NEVER able unsynch on it. Put it as minimum ilvl all the time so that a new patch with new ilvl won't allow to burst it. Leave it as a CHALLENGE and let people who downed it be PROUD of it because there's no other way to do it. Don't break the progression, leave it all the time in the way that you need to do previous bosses to access harder ones.

That won't work.

You need to put rewards on this tier too if you want it to be at least tried, a build that won't be catched-up by tomes, hunts and 24man raids.
There no sense to waste that amount of time for nothing. If are people whining about it, they should just find a static and do it like other people.

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Originally Posted by Watachy

There no sense to waste that amount of time for nothing.

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Looking for challenge doesn't sound non-sense to me. There's plenty of people who want some challenge. PotD 150+ doesn't offer much but challenge, yet it is more active than Hunt or Diadem.

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Originally Posted by Watachy

If are people whining about it, they should just find a static and do it like other people.

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Problem is that the devs are too sensitive and listen more at people whining and crying.

I like raiding for multiple reason. I won't raid just for challenge especially if the reward is just a title which I would hardly use. I would have the satisfaction and feel proud of beating it but that won't last very long. This would require me to put in quite a bit of time to down this piece of content so I expect something good from it simple as.

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Originally Posted by Remus

I like raiding for multiple reason. I won't raid just for challenge especially if the reward is just a title which I would hardly use. I would have the satisfaction and feel proud of beating it but that won't last very long. This would require me to put in quite a bit of time to down this piece of content so I expect something good from it simple as.

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You summed up my thougts, i like raiding but if there is nothing at the end i won't bother me and spend a large amount of time to do so.
I like to challenge myself and get a special reward for doing so.

Challenge is a one-time incentive. You try, you win, you're done.

What they should do, for me, is just say "Deal with it ! You don't do the content, you don't get the reward".

As for unsyncing...well, it's doesn't really matter, you're doing the content months after it's not relevant anymore.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

As for unsyncing...well, it's doesn't really matter, you're doing the content months after it's not relevant anymore.

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Hum. Yeah, true.
Well then, put a mount so that it will be relevant all the time contrary to gear that will be outdated fast. Feast has mount for top PvPers. Why not raid for top Raiders?

People said they wanted it difficult, not rewarding. So just don't put anything?

I know they've discussed making a third tier of difficulty recently and that would be higher than current Savage content. If they do, I hope they add it in as a pure challenge standpoint and just make the content seriously challenging with vanity only rewards for completion of the content (IE, dyable raid pieces, mounts, unique minions and titles etc.) Force a min ilvl sync so it's completely about skill and not about over gearing the content too.

I'm also in favor of enforcing min iLv.
It's discouraging when you achieve a great feat and 2 patches later people can just faceroll it. Feelsbadman

As for rewards, personally i don't care about those as much.
Whether it be nothing or better gear, i'm fine with either.

Why would i raid for a lousy title?, second coil did that and barely anyone did it. The best gear should always be a reward from the hardest content period.

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

The best gear should always be a reward from the hardest content period.

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Because, y'know...you'll need that gear to beat the hardestest content. Which must then reward better gear for the hardestestest content. Rinse and repeat.

It's sort of a curious logic - The better you are, the worse gear you need, yet the better you are, the better gear you supposedly deserve, so the more you need the gear, the worse gear you get and vice versa.

That kinda leads the purpose of stats ad absurdum. Is it really about stats or do people just want to flaunt their E-Peen? >_>

Exclusive, vanity-based rewards is the only way to go for something like this IMO. It would also mean those with full ilvl/BiS gear getting to put said gear to use during the current cycle in content that's designed for it. The initial problem with Savage Coil was it sharing the same lockout (and loot) as Second Coil, so it hindered any incentive for others to do it in fear of ruining their chances of getting loot. At the same time I wonder whether it's worth designing 4 more fights for the sake of a minority within an already minority group, but if Yoshi already has the viewpoint of 'If we do it, well don't complain about it being too hard!' then more power to them I suppose.

Titles and nothing else in my opinion. The only way to give the true hardcore world first types the ability to boast of their accomplishments, without everyone else wanting something involved from it.

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

Why would i raid for a lousy title?

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Because Challenge - something that seems to be a common complaint among players at this juncture.

Not everyone needs an incentive of "gear" to want challenge - this avenue would give that section of players just that. Whether this is a meaningful use of resources however, that's up for debate.

don't care about rewards give me something crazy to fight against

While the fact there should be loot or just title is debatable, I think we all agree that this tier should never be doable unsynch and without ilvl min for it to keep its challenge, whatever how far the game goes. Even if old player may loose interest in it, new players may find fun in trying to do those still hard content, and lots of veteran would love too to remember the ol' time.

I'm not against it always being scaled to the current max iLvl and never being able to be unsynched.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

...with vanity only rewards...

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All raid gear becomes vanity gear a few months later, so this is a moot point

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Originally Posted by NolLacnala

All raid gear becomes vanity gear a few months later, so this is a moot point

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I feel you've missed the point - what I'm proposing in my post is a vanity only reward that signifies the mark of an exceptional raider as they cleared the highest tiers of content for the sake of challenge. This isn't items for progression through a raid tier to make things easier that will go obsolete after the raid tier is done. This also doesn't necessarily mean gear either - it could be a title or a minion unique to the raid tier.

In fact we don't even need a reward - if the dev team is willing to put up an insane challenge on the table for the sake of challenging the top end tier raiders, I'm sure some people would bite. However just providing some small incentive to partake in the content that is unique from the gear grind would at least make it more desirable too and lure a few more players into the mix for this style of content.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I feel you've missed the point - what I'm proposing in my post is a vanity only reward that signifies the mark of an exceptional raider as they cleared the highest tiers of content for the sake of challenge. This isn't items for progression through a raid tier to make things easier that will go obsolete after the raid tier is done. This also doesn't necessarily mean gear either - it could be a title or a minion unique to the raid tier.

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I like the idea but only if it's available to these raiders that cleared the content. Most of the time, these items (vanity/glamour) being added to simpler content (potd,crafting as example). I hear people already saying again that content shouldn't be gated, but I mean it isn't really gated since everybody could access it, if they put some effort/time in it. I would do that content if we get glamour or titles, not so much if it's just minions or orchestra scrolls (hate these things).

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

I like the idea but only if it's available to these raiders that cleared the content. Most of the time, these items (vanity/glamour) being added to simpler content (potd,crafting as example). I hear people already saying again that content shouldn't be gated, but I mean it isn't really gated since everybody could access it, if they put some effort/time in it. I would do that content if we get glamour or titles, not so much if it's just minions or orchestra scrolls (hate these things).

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I say, let's get epic glamour armor in our top tier raid. Nobody complain about Feast rewards, so if they come cry over top tier Raid rewards, they can go *** themselves :D

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I feel you've missed the point

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I didn't, but you did miss mine. What you are arguing for is what we currently have, except obsolete on arrival instead of usable for a few months. We even get titles and mounts. 2nd coil savage was touched by such a tiny percentage of the playerbase that they are only now considering revisiting it.

Unless you're implying a vanity item that's removed from rewards once echo hits that tier, which is as bad an idea as pvp's seasonal rewards.

Didn't they say there was going to be double savage if you beat savage in Stormblood. I remember them saying something like that in live letter.

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Originally Posted by NolLacnala

I didn't, but you did miss mine. What you are arguing for is what we currently have, except obsolete on arrival instead of usable for a few months. We even get titles and mounts. 2nd coil savage was touched by such a tiny percentage of the playerbase that they are only now considering revisiting it.

Unless you're implying a vanity item that's removed from rewards once echo hits that tier, which is as bad an idea as pvp's seasonal rewards.

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Nah, we're talking about two separate things entirely and no, I didn't miss your point either.

You're implying the rewards for the highest tier content should be gear that's relevant to the gear score when content is released. However, for the sake of discussion in this particular topic, S-E has implied they would like to make a third raid tier. If it goes the way of three difficulty tiers, I would like to see the following:

Normal Tier - Similar to story mode Gordias, Midas, and Creator
"Savage" Tier - Similar to current Creator Savage
"You're Gonna Die a Lot" Tier - Similar to Second Savage

The reward we see now (and what you're looking at) would be suitable for the "Savage" tier whereas the items I'm suggesting to add would be simple vanity items for the people who can complete "You're Gonna Die a Lot" tier. They are two separate item sets and "relevance" is to the eye of the beholder. In your post you're implying "relevance" is something that increases your gear score and makes your character more powerful. In my case "relevance" would be a small piece of item that caters to a small niche of the raider population that can and will handle the challenges thrown at time in the "You're Gonna Die a Lot" tier.

The two are different. In fact, I only used non-progression reward type as a small incentive to participate in the "You're Gonna Die a Lot" tier when I imagine there would be people who would partake in it even if there was literally 0 reward.

You make a good point about the Second Coil savage, though there was issues with that as well since it shared the same lockout as normal Second Coil. I've made my own comment about the meaningfulness of dedicating resources in this manner which is another debate entirely.

My thoughts behind a third tier of difficulty is that if they were to do it as a "challenge only" tier, it should min ilvl locked so it's a showcase of skill and not "how much can we outgear this fight". In addition, it would be possible to maintain this min ilvl lock on this third tier even when the previous two tiers become obsolete so the gear stays "relevant" and also isn't removed when a certain period of time has elapsed. This would also alleviate one of the concerns regarding the certain vanity items that were unique to PvP.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Because, y'know...you'll need that gear to beat the hardestest content. Which must then reward better gear for the hardestestest content. Rinse and repeat.

It's sort of a curious logic - The better you are, the worse gear you need, yet the better you are, the better gear you supposedly deserve, so the more you need the gear, the worse gear you get and vice versa.

That kinda leads the purpose of stats ad absurdum. Is it really about stats or do people just want to flaunt their E-Peen? >_>

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E-peen only children care about such things, i just want something to be worth my time.

Very few people would do it purely for the challenge (challenge is secondary, while getting gear is my primary motive) exclusive vanity rewards would make it worth it though because all about that glamour.

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

Why would i raid for a lousy title?, second coil did that and barely anyone did it. The best gear should always be a reward from the hardest content period.

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If for no other reason, I can respect this post because it doesn't paper over the real reason people want harder content: To be special snowflakes who can do content that 90%+ of each server can't do and flaunt out-of-reach gear.

This was done in FFXI. We've seen that movie before. It was never about challenge then, nor is it the case now. It's all about three letters: E-G-O.

A 3rd difficulty is a waste of time when it's only for like 5% of the player base if you don't like they difficulty we have now go play another game

The 3rd tier is being made specifically for people that want challenge, not majority of raiders. Savage is for the majority of raiders, while normal is for everyone.

iirc story mode was introduced because a lot complained about not being able to see the coil story without doing savage. So why does the story mode now drop any loot at all?

imo you want the story, do story mode. You want loot, do savage raid.
stick story mode in one of the roulettes so the queues still fire

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Originally Posted by Amaranths

A 3rd difficulty is a waste of time when it's only for like 5% of the player base if you don't like they difficulty we have now go play another game

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Raiding is an important part of MMO culture, and it represents the absolute top end of the spectrum. It is not a waste of time because it is a form of player retention, and a constant goal to strive for. Put it this way, a LOT of people beat creator in say... a month? maybe 6 or 7 weeks? That is them having peaked at the top end very early into the patch cycle. I can guarantee you that a lot of people will try this third difficulty but not necessarily beat it, and it will still have served its purpose as a next step that tides people over for an entire patch cycle. Please don't be selfish, raiding is an entire demographic within the MMO genre, and there needs to be content that appeals to the hardcore playerbase just as much as casual-midcore.

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Originally Posted by Amaranths

A 3rd difficulty is a waste of time when it's only for like 5% of the player base if you don't like they difficulty we have now go play another game

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I feel like time need to be spent elsewhere. 2 raid difficulty is just fine for now. I'd like them to focus on bringing new innovative contents rather than a rinse and repeat third tier.

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Originally Posted by Nalfein

I feel like time need to be spent elsewhere. 2 raid difficulty is just fine for now. I'd like them to focus on bringing new innovative contents rather than a rinse and repeat third tier.

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Innovative content ?

Yeah let's grind another s*** ! :)

There is no need for 3rd difficulty. If they have enough time to do that then they should do other things.
Savage dungeons for example or a completely new raid with one difficulty (savage only) which has its own story (This could be related to MSQ or side quest).

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Originally Posted by Yeol

There is no need for 3rd difficulty. If they have enough time to do that then they should do other things.
Savage dungeons for example or a completely new raid with one difficulty (savage only) which has its own story (This could be related to MSQ or side quest).

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That costs money. The only reason Extreme Savage may happen is due to the lack of cost involved. If they simply did a second tier, it would be at Creator's level since barely anyone could handle Gordias or Midas-- which defeats the entire point.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

That costs money. The only reason Extreme Savage may happen is due to the lack of cost involved. If they simply did a second tier, it would be at Creator's level since barely anyone could handle Gordias or Midas-- which defeats the entire point.

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Everything costs money, new content, new PotD floors, new raid, even music.
They just need to put the money somewhere worth it.

I know that some content cost more, it is still a sugestion IF they are capable of doing it.

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Originally Posted by Amaranths

A 3rd difficulty is a waste of time when it's only for like 5% of the player base if you don't like they difficulty we have now go play another game

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You're funny. We wouldn't end asking for that 3rd tier if it wasn't for SE to continually nerf and lower the difficulty of end game content, which is becoming keyboard faceroll. All of that just for money. Well, with the money of the happy casual who can now faceroll Sophia, Zurvan and the creator, they can bring back something challenging as another difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

Savage dungeons for example or a completely new raid with one difficulty (savage only) which has its own story (This could be related to MSQ or side quest).

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This is basically what Coil was, and, saddly, what caused the creation of Normal/Savage raids.
As long as the mentality doesn't change, there is no solution. Short-term rewards are a low incentive for raiders, and long-term rewards will result in whining from non-raiders because they can't obtain it.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

This is basically what Coil was, and, saddly, what caused the creation of Normal/Savage raids.
As long as the mentality doesn't change, there is no solution. Short-term rewards are a low incentive for raiders, and long-term rewards will result in whining from non-raiders because they can't obtain it.

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Let's be real. They weren't whining that they can't obtain it. Anyone can go back and unsync Coil now. They were complaining that they couldn't have it faster.

Given how badly NM mode has damaged the game, I hope they're happy.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Let's be real. They weren't whining that they can't obtain it. Anyone can go back an unsync coil now. They were complaining that they couldn't have it faster.

Given how badly NM mode has damaged the game, I hope they're happy.

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Well if we lock that new difficulty to be always difficult because no unsynch, min ilvl and no echo, there do will be whining.
I just wish SE could ignore whining people.