One thing I think a lot of people noticed in the recently posted action list was the absence of a lot of the core debuff spells (para, silence, etc). I'm curious... is this a shift in the battle system so that we don't need those spells/abilities, or just keeping the other mages from doing too much to open up design space for a debuff class or two? I was actually originally expecting that the debuffing duties in this original set of classes/jobs were going to be shifted onto the BRD, but they still seem mostly buff-focused.
I really enjoy buff/debuff classes so I hope there's one forthcoming. Though... as someone who played and really enjoyed RDM in FFXI, I would ask that RDM not be the main buff/debuff job this time around. Make that Scholar, or maybe Geomancer since Yoshida said that's popular and highly requested in Japan.(Actually, Scholar class -> Geomancer job could be a sweet combo. Or some kind of oracle/doomsayer -> Time Mage.) Let RDM be the magical fencer people keep wanting it to be. I think something that wasn't a straight-up caster but that behaved more like Dancer from FFXI but shot off spells instead of flourishes would be pretty sweet.
Debuff class?
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11-21-2011, 06:06 AMJTSpenderDebuff class?
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11-21-2011, 06:10 AMBetelgeuzah
When you create a Job around debuffing, you make it necessary in all important encounters from that point on (otherwise they would be useless or the content too easy).
We will already need a Tank, DPS, Healer and Buffer for every encounter like that. Do you seriously want yet another archetype to look for when you want to do something? I don't. -
11-21-2011, 06:22 AMShneibelfrom a old old OLD interview with Yoshida, Arcanis ll be a debuff class with machine & magic trapQuote:
Originally Posted by JTSpender
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11-21-2011, 06:29 AMAirget
I would say based on what we've seen with the class skills, the game is shifting focus on abilities that continue the flow of combat. With enfeebles as they were in terms of silence, para and such they in a sense have a stagnative feeling in the fact they don't do any damage to the monster so if you're a player trying to get an enfeeble/debuff to stick countless time, you are slowing down the pace of combat because you are focusing on enfeebling rather then inputting damage.
I believe enfeeblers will come back but as seen with some of the magic abilities, the enfeebles will do damage as well as have a chance to enfeeble so that the flow of combat is always moving forward.
For quick examples here are the following:
-∟CNJ Mag. 9 O Target AoE Deals wind damage to all enemies within range of the target. Chance to dispel an effect.Combo: CNJ Magic 8, Bonus: Increased accuracy against target.
-CNJ Mag. 10 Deals earth damage to the target. Chance to reduce evasion against earth magic.
-THM Mag. 4 O Self AoE Deals ice damage to all enemies within range. Chance to inflict Bind.
- ∟THM Mag. 9 O Deals lightning damage to target. Chance to inflict Stun.Combo: THM Magic 8, Bonus: Increased damage and reduced cast time when Stun fails to trigger.
BLM Mag. 3 O Self AoE Deals fire damage to all enemies within range. Chance to inflict DoT effect.
As it stands now the only enfeeble type that doesn't do dmg, which it shouldn't is sleep since that acts more like a pacing tool to control pace of battle. As for the other enfeebles though I wouldn't be surprised if we see them come back in the form of dmg+enfeeble effects. -
11-21-2011, 07:45 AMJinko
Yup Arcanist > Geomancer most likely.
Agree Fencer > Red Mage would be good match up, they should specialise in adding en spells (enfira etc) to the party. -
11-21-2011, 07:54 AMTonkra
you really think that that list was complete? i dont think so at all. but well lets see. or do you think they removed shell, poison, bio, hp drain, shockspikes etc. as well?! a black mage not having poison spells?
NOT
oh man... -
11-21-2011, 08:00 AMAlerithThe list IS complete. They said 15 actions per class (not counting traits). If you count, they all have 15. So yes, Dia, Bio, etc. is currently not included.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonkra
So the only thing the list didn't show was traits. -
11-21-2011, 08:07 AMFiron
I would love for bio to be an powerful spell like in the old FF instead of some stupid Debuff
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11-21-2011, 08:08 AMTonkraso as a black mage you dont have shockspikes, poison, bio, hp darin.. and as a whm you dont have shell (i only can see protect and stoneskin in the list from the descriptions), banish, dia well that sucks really for a great "reformation"Quote:
Originally Posted by Alerith
a reason more not to pay for the beta progress right now. thats a joke. 15 skills per class.
i imagine the discussion between the dev team:
"what the class has 16 skills? wtf. we talked about only implementing 15 skills for each class. ah well remove the cure skill from the conjurer so we dont violate our agreement."
is that a joke or what?
you can not make balancing according to just a stupid strict number? a mage often needs more skills than others. -
11-21-2011, 08:15 AMUrthdigger
I would love to see debuffs moved to Alchemist. Yes, you heard me right. They have all those poisons that used to be used for en-status weapons. Simply make those poisons apply a buff onto the user that lets them have a chance of applying a debuff on each melee swing.
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11-21-2011, 08:31 AMnormalforceI remember a while back people talking about a class that used Alchemist items in much the same way an Archer uses arrows. It seems like it would be an expensive class to maintain. Probably should give them a "gil toss" attack just for spite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Urthdigger
Though, I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of poison system added to the game. Use a potion on your main weapon and get an en-status effect or poison effect for 30 minutes or so. -
11-21-2011, 08:34 AMnormalforceTo be fair,Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonkra
does not specify whether or not it's physical defense or magical defense. Maybe it'll be one spell that does both, or we just get both Protect and Shell. Because I do find it odd that we'd get one and not the other.Quote:
CON Mag. 6 - Increases the defense of all party members within range of the target.
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11-21-2011, 09:34 AMUrthdiggerI made a suggestion about this a while back, and one condition of this change was indeed "Make the poisons cheap to create". The idea is that with a cheap commodity that does an effect you cannot get otherwise, alchemist will have a niche market they can continually supply.Quote:
Originally Posted by normalforce
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11-21-2011, 10:09 AMChreesSomething I noticed after reading the action changes is that in the UI mockup for 2.0, it shows all of the players having two buffs that use the same symbols we currently have for protect (the hexagon) and shell (the 4 diamonds). Now I know that it's "subject to change," but it was only released a month ago. I just thought it was something to keep in mind. I'm still scratching my head over this. :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by normalforce
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-9...llffxiv2.0.PNG
http://zam.zamimg.com/ffxiv/icons/1C5C00A2.pnghttp://zam.zamimg.com/ffxiv/icons/1C5C00A3.png -
11-21-2011, 10:38 AMChiefCurrahee
Like others are saying, I think we'll see Anarchist be the enfeebling class. Having those skills and spells already coded into the game it could speed up the time line to implement at least that job.
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11-21-2011, 10:54 AMdarkstarpoet1when yoshi was asked about the next class to be released he stated it would be a mage, but it would likely be 2.0 before it gets in. that's a year without them.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee
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11-21-2011, 10:57 AMFelis
And during the time we can make the alchemists a joy and buy the debuff potions from them ^^
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11-21-2011, 10:59 AMViridianaCNJ doesn't even "need" 15 skills. Honestly, if I were going to design it to have no more than 15, the first thing I'd do is combine Protect and Shell. Furthermore, CNJ has never had Dia or Banish (to my knowledge). THM is getting an effect that restores their HP on next cast; no way to know at present if that's supposed to be Drain or what. They're also getting Stygian Spikes (THM never had Shock Spikes, so I don't know why you lumped that with BLM). So. . . we're losing, what, Poison and Astral/Umbral damage spells? Maybe Shell? Oh no! How ever shall we live?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonkra
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11-21-2011, 11:10 AMLiennThe image also has basic attacks and higher tier actions. So i believe it's already outdated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrees
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11-21-2011, 02:53 PMMattiaI would have assumed they'd give us that class before the 1.20 classes =(. Only mage job I'm interested in till we get SMN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shneibel
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11-21-2011, 04:56 PMGriss
I always did get a bit of a giggle when i hucked a paralyzing or poisoning potion at a mob.
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11-21-2011, 06:52 PMKikoshoYoshida already mentioned that he plans for a debuffer role as well. Besides, debuffing has never really been a strict requirement but it sure makes encounters easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
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11-22-2011, 04:15 AMTonkraQuote:
Originally Posted by Viridiana
fanboy blabla. how do you call that in english? put lipstick on the pig?
as a mage i want variety of spells, utility spells that are useful in every way.
why is it better to lose most of your spells? i like to poison foes, slow them down and do damage on them as well... mage classes can chose the strategy cause of their variety of spells/utility spells. if you do not then its good for you..
i dont really think that this is a useful change... removing "cool" spells like scourge, poison etc... and just split the elemental spells to con and thaumaturge . why does a white mage have skills like wind, earth? i thought they wanted to make the differences more clear... but what they are doing know is just to remove skills out of the game, traditional skills. what 6 elements? throw water away, who needs that?. well that sucks really. seriously WHERE is the sense of that?
dont know whats that good about of making a mage very simplistic. well a black mage consists of thunder, fire, ice damage attacks... some sleep and thats it?
what a joke... on one side its no real black mage anymore because he doesnt have all elemental spells and on the other side the white mage is a mixture between white mage and black mage? what kind of logic is this?
in my opinion it would have been better:
whm/con:
- banish
- dia
- holy
- paralyze
- slow
black mage:
-scourge
- all elemental spells
- poison
-debuff spells
well what a black mage is supposed to be.
i dont know what kind of "bettering" this should be... ok they throw 90% of the spells out of the class. and splitted the remaining skills between con and thm. "well the con also should have 15 skills, so give three of the elemental black mage skills to the white mage.... water? well there is no space for water. they have yet 15 skills. remove water."
YEAH THAT makes real sense. this should be THE reformation? wew.. thanks square, thats really better than before. i always hated to chose which skill i should equip on my skill bar... now you made it much more easier for me.. so i can only chose between 3 damage spells.
i would personally remove all kind of elemental skills and combine them into one... so you only have to push one button... and the skill automatically choses the right element onto the target. that would be somethin wouldnt it? and using that spell on a friendly target causes it to turn into a cure. perfect isnt it?Quote:
the first thing I'd do is combine Protect and Shell
well thank god, that you wont design any kind of rpg game ;xQuote:
if I were going to design it to have no more than 15
play a hackn slay game, there you only have to push two buttons, maybe thats somethin for u.
*sarcasm off
you cant say "i gonna design a class that has max/minimum 15 skills.. thats not how balancing and class design is working (well for SE it does, like it seems)
but we see to what it ends up... there is no water element anymore... and a white mage has spells like wind, earth and tha "black" mage has no posion skills or something. lol'd enough. -
11-22-2011, 04:22 AMElexia
Looks like we're possibly going to get a dedicated debuffer (which won't be their only actions, it sounds like some people honestly never touched a FF game before lol.)
After 2.0 it may go to whatever job/class already exists, but I won't be surprised if we DO end up getting a new class, I mean in FFXI there was nothing wrong with a RDM or BLU's using Debuffs or COR's enhancing debuffs so I don't really see a problem if they introduce a new class.
The kind this game needs? So they can actually keep balancing it? Why do you think MMOs are usually balanced and FFXIV wasn't? It wasn't because it was unfinished, XIV gave you too much freedom, now they're fixing that and rebalancing everything a step at a time.Quote:
i dont know what kind of "bettering" this should be
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11-22-2011, 04:26 AMLiennAgreed! This is looking terribly poor for a MMO...i'm just hope they give us time to try out 1.20 before billing us so we at least will be able to see what they are charging us for...will be a shame the patch being 11/30...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonkra
SE: "Here the 1.20...now don't forget to, after patching it, go to account management and reactivate your options or you won't be able to play it..."
Player: "mimimi..."
SE: "What? You took over 24hrs to patch itbecause the patcher sucks, the month changed and now you cannot play because your options were cancelled?
Player: "Yes..."
SE: "We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause and thank you for your understanding. Next!" -
11-22-2011, 04:27 AMEstellios
They already said we'd get some time to try out 1.20 before they start charging.
They said it... many times. -
11-22-2011, 04:28 AMQuisi
GM already confirmed in other thread we won't see debuff skills until 2.0. Don't know anything about shell.
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11-22-2011, 04:31 AMAnswaAnd we all say it again and again and link it. And people are still doing it. *rolls eyes*Quote:
Originally Posted by Estellios
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11-22-2011, 04:34 AMTonkraWell you dont either, eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
a black mage having 3 elemental spells, no poison skills etc... and a white mage having 3 elementals, no light spells? what the fuck is going on? i thought they want to make it clear which class is in the role of a whm or blm? what they have done now is MUCH more confuse/chatoic than before!
noooo but they have managed to give each class 15 skills, thank good .. Do not exceed the magical number "15" when it comes to skills. what does square think? do not exceed 15 skills per class so that we have a perfect balancing?
thats not how to design a class ... you cant do it this way..
and we see the result .... no water element... why? because there was no "space" for it anymore... "15" you know... never saw something that worse
its a fucking joke. well... and im not flaming that often, but this is RIDICULOUS
white mage having 2 of the elements and black mage 3 of the other elements (although in traditional, black mage is the caster with all the elemental stuff)... and removing 1 element completley as damage type. with which reasons for? that is just ridiculous..
i thought they're going into a good direction and they always said make "more" final fantasy out of it.. well i was completely wrong. they went crazy.
they cut all skills away because they can make a whole new class in 2.0. for it... congrats square... good improvement. and con and thaumaturge are broken classes now. -
11-22-2011, 04:36 AMLiennWell...they said ALOT of things that didn't happen...and "some time" is very relative...the patch 11/30 and the billing 12/01 means you had "some time" to try out 1.20...Quote:
Originally Posted by Estellios
I just wish we had the old FFXIV back as spin-off and, if possible, a satisfaction/refund policy regarding this FFXIV too...would love to have my 50 bucks back just to use it to buy the old FFXIV again. =P -
11-22-2011, 04:38 AMAnswaWhat "alot" of things have they said that didn't happen?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lienn
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11-22-2011, 05:29 AMViridianaYou may *want* a variety of spells, but how many do you actually *need*? No more than 15, I'd say. . .Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonkra
Also, CNJ (the class) is not WHM (the job). That's why CNJ has elemental spells: they need something to level with. Granted, I'd have given them Banish and Scourge instead, because that would lead to less RDM rage. As far as your comment about "Waaa. . . BLM doesn't have all the elements! Waaa!" Wind was a WHM spell before it was a BLM spell, anyway, and very few incarnations of BLM had every element, anyway.