Most of people who play PGL would think of either it as evasion-tanking or that it will go into Dps route one way or another. However,From what I see from the description and skill list of the new PGL/MOK are going to have, the define role for PGL is in pretty bad state, come on' we know that in MMO game it is better to be good at one way and not jack of all-trade like this.
Here see what it can do : "little attack skill" "little dodge skill" "little stun skill" "little debuff skill" "Need a lot of MP" in MMO, this look bad... <_<;
I know that this is possibly be futile, but SE says before that they will release the class detail ahead so that they can hear some feedback from us. If anybody agree that you not want PGL to be kind Dps rapid attack instead of just little of everything, please like this post.
Quote:
Let's look it easy from PT recruitment perspective :
-PLD = for safe tank.
-WAR = speed run tank.
-DRG = DD
-BRD = every PT need Mp refill song.
-WHM = healer most important.
-BLM = for all the debuff and nuker. (work as current THM role)
-PGL = Do we really need this? let's fill LNC/DRG til max..
My goal in this thread isn't about complain. Only intention here is to notify dev team that you are repeating the same mistake by making unwanted class.
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11-21-2011, 01:47 AMAlise[dev1206]Objection to the new adjustment for PGL, they gonna be useless in PT.
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11-21-2011, 01:50 AMAlise
Sorry, Inb4 someone come and say like this post if you disagree. <_>;
"Like this post if you want PGL as the current plan, jack of all'trade type." -
11-21-2011, 01:55 AMSynfrag
I don't remember them asking for our feedback on the matter. I certainly could be wrong but regardless, if you don't post it in the proper forum category (Class Discussion: PGL) and do not tag it with the dev tag ([dev1206]) you are not offering feedback.
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11-21-2011, 01:56 AMHolland
After reading the actions list again, it seems PGL is not a jack of all trades, some of the skills are based on evading an attack, increasing evasion, blinding, stunning, slowing and absorving MP to keep himself active in battle. His focus seems to be centered on evading completely while dealing good damage with the added elemental effect on attacks.
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11-21-2011, 02:01 AMAlise
Thank for head up, so I tag [dev1206] in now.
And no, not really, so far what I have seen 90% of the threads that get dev feedback and some even quote in Yoshida posted before (about craft 1.19 complain) are from here in "General section"
@Holland
Stun is useless in any boss-scale tho, do you ever seen any of them get stun? (Buffalo?, Urekeus? Batraal? Ifrit?) even if it does, it last no longer than blink of an eyes.
PGL is useless against both Batraal and Ifrit, I were hoping the new change would make him more useful in new content, not make it look worse with a clear define role as in solo-list. A war that rely heavily on MP is already sound bad enough... (no any half magic knight is a success role in MMO)
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11-21-2011, 02:01 AMgrandm
i object to ppl objecting to something they have not tried yet.
i do not think pug is losing its identity or place in a party. they will be able to deal high damage in a short period of time, who wouldn't want that in their party? my concern is the same as most ppl what will MP use be like? but i will wait to play it before i make up my mind -
11-21-2011, 02:02 AMBetelgeuzah
Doesn't really look all that jack-of-all-trade'ish to me at all. It's another Job that excels in DPS but differs from LNC and BLM in that it's more of a frontline-mage type entity.
The fact that it has debuffs means relatively little, as the debuffer archetype has been divided and incorporated into the existing Jobs. Since every Job has a form of debuffing it doesn't really take away from MNK's ability to DPS. Every job can debuff in some form or another, so MNK won't lose anything by having a few.
Usually in an MMO if you can excel in many archetypes at once your powers will be toned down accordingly. Right now the debuffer archetype doesn't even exist, so no Job's power needs to be toned down. MNK isn't stepping on anyone's toes here. -
11-21-2011, 02:07 AMElexia
Monk/Pugilist is going to be sexy actually. I don't object to classes/jobs getting sexy. PGL isn't necessarily useless against Ifrit, I've done it as PGL plenty of times, it's just 9000 easier to toss Lancers at it.
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11-21-2011, 02:11 AMAlise
@grandm :
waiting that long would be too late.. 1.21 is mark for the ending of battle adjustment. and 1.20 is near finish.
Aye, and that is really bad to let it happen in MMO..Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
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11-21-2011, 02:16 AMAsaren
You should put a head up "Only PGL R50 vote please"
because I can see that everybody who vote disagree in this thread clearly not plan to play PGL, or not like PGl to begin with.
Seriously.any PGL fan would not like this change at all. -
11-21-2011, 02:17 AMSynfragI was going to say the same thing but the OP seemed to want to give feedback prior to patch. Personally I am fine PGL being a primarily solo, jack-of-all role. I mainly use it for this presently and I always see PGLs soloing the Stronghold Key NMs. I currently only have PGL and CNJ to 50 so I can't say from experience it is the best solo class but I can say it is highly survivable against most any opponent with enough EVA. I seem to always be the last one standing which is always funny considering I have the highest enmity behind the tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by grandm
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11-21-2011, 02:19 AMUrthdigger
I should note we haven't seen any numbers yet. For all we know "continually drains MP" is a 1 MP per tic drain. And oh hey, there's an ability to restore MP upon evasion.
I notice that on top of DD potential, one of the elemental fist moves enhances defense, another enhances evasion, and there's a third ability that flat out keeps a foe from doing anything, so long as you're not getting hit, it's not getting hit, and you don't use actions. I'm seeing PGL's role as crowd control/off-tank. Like MRD, they can function as a tank that's more effective at offense than a GLA is. They've mentioned wanting FFXIV to be "party vs. party", you versus a party of mobs, and the linking system is proof of that. For an example of where a side tank role like PGL comes in handy, take a look back at FFXI: In the newer Voidwatch NMs, you're forced to deal with a number of lesser pets while dealing with the main boss. You can't simply kite them, can't sleep them, and you get a bonus for killing them anyway. So, a valid strategy is to simply have the melee who can take a punch (In FFXIV terms that'd be PGL, MRD, and any GLAs who aren't the main tank) engage the additional mobs, quickly beat them down (This is where their additional offense comes in handy), before going back to the main boss. And honestly, when I see the Dark Moogle primal fight, I think of the final fight in Moogle Kupo d'Etat, where they had a number of moogle henchmen you had to defeat at various parts of the fight. I could definitely see them doing the same thing.
I see the roles as such:
PLD: Main tank
WAR: Side-tank (well suited for getting enmity on multiple foes, parries well)
MNK: Side-tank (well suited for keeping individual foes pinned down, dodges well)
DRG: Pure DD
BRD: Ranged DD (For fights where staying in melee range is a bad thing), support
WHM: Healer
BLM: Ranged DD (More potent over time than BRD) -
11-21-2011, 02:21 AMDjeseritI have and enjoy my 50 Pugilist, and look forward to the upcoming changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asaren
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11-21-2011, 02:23 AMViridianaReally? Because I don't see the issue with the changes, either. Nor do I see where OP is getting this jack-of-all-trades idea from. . .Quote:
Originally Posted by Asaren
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11-21-2011, 02:24 AMgrandm
if after 1.21 comes out and they find something wrong with the battle balance they will adjust it. they wont say no battle balance is over we will just leave it broken
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11-21-2011, 02:26 AMBetelgeuzahBecause MNK has debuffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridiana
Every other job also has debuffs though, so his/her point is kind of moot.
Debuffs can create utility to Jobs that share the same archetype. Other MMO's do this via dividing buffs to every class, but we have a buffer job so debuffs are scattered around instead.
Which is good, because a) I like buffing as an archetype and b)to me personally buffing is more interesting than debuffing as an archetype. However I could see why some people would prefer not having a buffer archetype. -
11-21-2011, 02:28 AMGath
Won't run ot of MP if you have a BRD with you ;O
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11-21-2011, 02:29 AMHollandWithout on-hands testing, I don't think there is a need to choose now which way PGL should go. I did not even consider voting for or against =pQuote:
Originally Posted by Asaren
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11-21-2011, 02:29 AMAlise
Let's look it easy from PT recruitment perspective :
-PLD = for safe tank.
-WAR = speed run tank.
-DRG = DD
-BRD = every PT need Mp refill song.
-WHM = healer most important.
-BLM = for all the debuff and nuker. (work as current THM role)
-PGL = Do we really need this? let's fill LNC/DRG til max.. -
11-21-2011, 02:33 AMHollandTo be honest, I see BLM spot more fragile than any other DD's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alise
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11-21-2011, 02:34 AMyukikaze_yanagi
that work with lnc as is now. I don't know how powerful classes will be in 1.20, you do ? Expose your concern, but feedback right now are useless since you don't know how that work out.
Also, content will not be batraal and ifrit forever. don't take it in too much account -
11-21-2011, 02:36 AMBetelgeuzah
I don't see damage being a problem, but the lowest common denominator being in LNC's favor. That's how it worked in XI. Any DD job could wipe the floor with a bad Samurai, but a bad Samurai was still better than a bad <insert DD here>.
I could see MP management making MNK more technical but it all depends on how difficult it will be to pull off LNC's crit hit tricks. -
11-21-2011, 02:46 AMAlise
My goal in this thread isn't about complain, but just trying to make this noticeable.
Only intention here is to notify dev team that you are repeating the same mistake by making unwanted class. If think have this consider in their mind already, no matter what happen in 1.20 I will be please enough that "I had done my best in telling them". I have to worry because 1.18 1.19 and seem 1.20 gonna repeat PGL unwanted title. -
11-21-2011, 02:47 AMHanemakikaze
Actually I think they are pretty damn useless as they are now in their current state, so I'm all for the changes just to see how it goes. They definitely needed major adjustments, I mean don't get me wrong I'm not hating or anything I'm a 50 pugilist myself, but with the current situation with the game, they are just extremely lack luster compared to MRD or LNC as dd or even tanking. I feel like they don't even have a real role atm besides just existing.
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11-21-2011, 02:50 AMChardrizard
Where is MeowieMeowie, so he can show you that PUG can actually shines at ifrit/batraal and not useless.
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11-21-2011, 02:53 AMgrandm
OP would you rather they get rid of everything execpt
gld-tank
lnc-dps
con-healer
nothing else is needed may as well scrap them -
11-21-2011, 02:55 AMHulanI wasn't going to chime in on this debate, but this comment is somewhat insulting. Until this day, I have had absolutely no wish to level PGL. My PGL is a measly level 12 and that only for featherfoot and Second Wind. These changes have single-handedly convinced me to main PGL. Sure, the class might not be as popular for a while, but by god does it sound fun. I can only speak for myself, but these changes have just as much change to bring people to PGL as they do to scare them away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asaren
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11-21-2011, 02:58 AMHanemakikazeI'm pretty sure I said compared to other classes in my second sentence, they don't "shine" they are just "there", especially at ifrit with their extremely short range and 1min cd victimize. This is my point, why bother with having a pugilist in your party when other classes are so much more effective/better. Again, they are in just to be there with the current state of the game and its classes. I welcome the change so that's no longer case, hopefully.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chardrizard
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11-21-2011, 02:58 AMRentahamsterThey always ask for our feedback. On everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synfrag
You're right about this being in the wrong forum, though. -
11-21-2011, 03:01 AMAirget
Personally when I saw the changes to Pugilist it enticed me to be interested in leveling it. I find the idea of pereptual cost auras to be interesting and ponder how they'll be useful from situation to situation. Based on how much the defense bonus offers I can imagine it would be good on mobs where you are tanking but dealing more damage isn't good on the long haul. Where as the Fire aura is helpful in a group setting where you aren't taking so that you can focus more heavily on DD but if you do get hate you can just switch to the Earth Aura and limit the amount of damage you take.
When Monk comes along you can then use a Wind aura to enhance your ability to use your Counter ability, while you may not think it to be effective in terms of stunning it's effect comes from it's low TP cost and near instant reusability. As long as they don't change the recast of counter abilities I can see the Wind Aura being really useful against mobs with low Accuracy.
GLA/PLD have a shield, with the ability to limit the damage they take and with shield blocks counter, Mrd/WAR have the ability to parry counter which I believe comes in the form of full negate damage and partially negating damage, but they don't have a perpetual move that'll keep their parry rate constant and can only rely on a single move that can increase rate of parry once before the effect dissapears. PUG/MNK has evasion countering with the same concept as the MRD ability to increase evasion until you evade but it also has the added effect of restoring MP upon evading. There is also that one ability Monk gets:
"Prevents target from executing actions or moving. MP is continually consumed while effect is active. Effect fades upon executing an action, or if you or the target sustain damage." My guess is it's either a Grapple or Shadowbind and the MP cost will most liklely be high to use as well as the recas tto use it again, but the move itself does open up the potential to give your party a breather if things are turning bad, if it does work on NMs lol. I can imagine Monks being very useful at giving their party time to regroup their plan if a move ends up eliminating a big portion of the party, they can fire this ability and maybe hold the mob for a minute or two while people get back on their feet or attempt to recover MP.
But ya, honestly I don't see much worry for Pugilist, with how they are being setup, I'd say they are given a nice bit of flexibility with how they can efficient in combat. -
11-21-2011, 03:02 AMBetelgeuzahI was pretty confident that I could skip MNK this time around, if it played anything like XI's MNK (why would I want to play the same Job twice?). Now they pulled off a stunt like this and I'm completely torn. The AF looks superb (especially on a female), the style is more Chinese and it plays completely different, yet in a traditional fashion with kicks and elemental attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulan
I was sure that I would never be a Monk again after XI. Now I am sure that I will be. Sigh. -
11-21-2011, 03:11 AMChardrizardYou can never balance everything for everyone, if everything is balance for everyone it means everyone is the same thing and are not unique. Pugilist will outshines Lancer at other contents, might be the next primal, might be the next raids.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanemakikaze
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11-21-2011, 03:14 AMBetelgeuzahThat's not really true. You can, for example, align the job/class differently, name the skills according to a different theme (light vs. dark for a basic example), you can also implement unique animations and particle effects for the skills. The lore can be different, and the weapon type they wield.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chardrizard
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11-21-2011, 03:24 AMSephrickThat's why they take the time to post it before implementation. Albeit it was very late.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synfrag
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...495#post292495Quote:
Alongside the overhaul to the algorithms, work is also proceeding on redefining and redistributing abilities for Disciples of War and Magic. This is a hefty amount of work, and not all classes will be ready by patch 1.19. But rather than a partial release, we’ve decided to save the implementation of all classes for 1.20. We’ll make the details of the planned changes available when 1.19 goes live, and monitor player feedback as a way to help define our direction. In the meantime, we’ll keep on performing balance tweaks to the current class system in coming sub-patches based on ongoing feedback from the community.
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11-21-2011, 03:30 AMAlerith
The only problem I have with the OP's post is that she is making it sound concrete "This is bad. We don't want this."
We have no way of knowing if it's good or bad, and to say "I think this is a bad idea, so it must be" is simply wrong. Voice your concern and why you think it's a concern, but don't just jump to the end and say that it's for sure going to suck.
These changes sound thought out and it gives PGL/MNK an interesting spin by utilizing MP and I don't foresee that it is going to hurt their desirability any more than the current system. -
11-21-2011, 03:33 AMChardrizardThat is not unique lol, that is just different outside skins. Right now Lancers are in demand on Ifrit because of their ability to hit at longer range, if they makes everyone has the same range as Lancer but giving it different naming, I see no point in that. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
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11-21-2011, 03:38 AMBetelgeuzahThat is certainly unique aesthetics wise. You can belittle it as much as you want, but it's still a form of uniqueness just like any other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chardrizard
And as far as the "point" of it goes, no Job/class will ever be excluded from any content. -
11-21-2011, 03:50 AMFironI'm a pgl main since game classes was announced I love the changes, however my only concern is that are these said attacks pure elemental or they simply attacks with added elemental power. Also PGL is reminding me of Avatar or Fei from Xenogears which i can't wait to play asQuote:
Originally Posted by Asaren
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11-21-2011, 04:04 AMAltanas
I like the idea of what is in essense Stances for pug/mnk, and I like the fact they appear to last full time until you want to turn off the stance or change to a different stance. I dont like the fact they are tied to MP though.
What if I was kiting mobs using the evasion stance and ran out of MP :(
Or if you are in a dungeon it will be annoying having to turn on and off the stance as you run around to the next set of mobs in order to save a few MP
Quick Q: Will we still have strike/pummel (which cost MP) or will they be gone too?
I like the idea that the stances are elementally alligned, it would be interesting to see if the weaponskills also allign that way (which am guessing they do given the materia on PGL weapons) -
11-21-2011, 04:16 AMElexiaQuote:
Originally Posted by Firon
If you played FFXI, just think of it like a form of Formless Strikes, hearing it it sounds bad, but in execution it definitely has it's uses.