Opening as a Dark Knight?

Hi everyone! Amagiri Yanagi here, and I have a question about openers in general as tanks.

I'm a Dark Knight and my friend is a Warrior. The way we've been pulling so far is having the Warrior start off the pull and then we tank swap where I become the MT shortly after openers. Our Black Mage is disputing this method, saying that I should start off the pull and that the Warrior should just remain the OT the whole time, and that this would net us more damage overall in comparison. I don't know which is actually better, so I was wondering if you all could help me with this issue.

My concerns in particular fell to enmity, loss of mana, and DPS, by having me open. Our War tank is capable of switching into Deliverance pretty quickly even while acting as the temporary MT during openers, and when we tank swap, the advantage I feel is greater from doing that than the DPS lost from our WAR tank doing an Unchained into 3 Fel Cleave opener rather than a 4 Fel Cleave opener.

Your black mage is silly and seems to be giving advice on classes he has no clue about.

Best raid gain is always WAR pull.

The war loses 1 fell cleave and 5-7% DPS loss for the first 15-20 seconds for the fattest aggro start and the DRK/PLD getting 20%+ Damage for the first 30 seconds.

Remove these silly notions of always MT/OT. You work with your co-tank to maximize defensive CD uptime and maximum DPS output from both.
End of story.

Warrior loses a smidgen of dps at the beginning to Unchained opener, farm up a ridiculous aggro lead, and let the MT sit in dps stance for a ridiculously long period of time. I'm not sure how a tiny dps loss from one outweighs the dps gain from the whole.

If you can pull it off, you can top the Unchained opener if you pull out of Grit, but only if you have a NIN that is willing to Shadewalker you at least twice. You may have to Powerslash a few extra times but that loss is paltry compared to having Grit on.

If you have no NIN or your healers don't like the idea, then yeah I'd default to the Unchained opener. Or your WAR could just pull in Deliverance with Shadewalker since BB is part of their DPS rotation.

Basically you take a big loss pulling in Grit, your WAR takes a small loss Unchained pulling, and you both take almost no loss at all with a Gritless pull. You'll just need an industrious NIN to pick up that slack with Shadewalker and possibly Smokescreen.

Pros of WAR pulling with Unchained:
- Highest possible enmity lead over DPS and healers
- Gain a BB combo (+20 potency)
- Gain Berserk'd Vengeance procs (+50 potency for every hit you take while under the effect of Vengeance)
- Gain healer GCDs due to popping all defensive and self healing CDs
- DRK will only have to do 1 PS the entire fight, barring tank swaps (possibly 0 PS if you Shade the DRK during the swap)

Cons:
- Lose a Berserk'd FC (bare in mind that since FC is on the GCD, it merely replaces your 9th Berserk'd GCD and isn't a flat 500 potency loss)
- Delay Reprisal
- Possibly lose a Low Blow proc depending on RNG

Pros of DRK pulling, with or without Grit:
- Reprisal up ASAP
- 3x FC WAR opener
- possibly proc Low Blow

Cons of DRK pulling:
- No more Berserk'd Vengeance procs
- Actually takes damage and therefore will cost healers DPS GCDs
- Have to PS more
- Lose BB combo

WAR pulling w/o Unchained means they lose Equilibrium and the extra cushion health, which could potentially mean lost healer GCDs depending on the encounter.

If anyone can think of any other pros/cons lmk.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this thread but this is legit the first time I've heard about this. Have people been doing this for a long time or is this a new strat to 3.5? Also when the DRK provokes does he stay out of grit and when exactly is the swap supposed to take place?

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Originally Posted by Berzullha

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this thread but this is legit the first time I've heard about this. Have people been doing this for a long time or is this a new strat to 3.5? Also when the DRK provokes does he stay out of grit and when exactly is the swap supposed to take place?

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That's already known for the 3.x. Gordias had WAR pull tanking A1S and A4S at the very least. DRK normally can voke once WAR is in pacification, as long as WAR isnt using BB combo, the drk should have enough aggro lead. Or voke Power Slash after Berserk is out.

The main reason for this sudden change was 2.x has PLD spamming RoH because that's the only combo worth mentioning. When lvl60 introduced more skills to do damage, that's when WAR pulling becomes way more viable.

For Creator Savage alone, 10-12 top speedruns feature WAR pulling first. If you wonder how those DRKs can reach 1.7-1.8k dps in A10S or 1.5-1.6k dps in A11S, those are the results of having WAR pull for aggro reason. PLD/DRK loses out more from having to pull first, albeit doesn't do much if you just want to clear.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

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even with war pulling he can do 3FC opener, thats what most top groups do, they only have Defiance for tomahawk or overpower hate would be close however its best overall DPS for MT/OT, also would require nin shade ;3

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Originally Posted by Gildarts

even with war pulling he can do 3FC opener, thats what most top groups do, they only have Defiance for tomahawk or overpower hate would be close however its best overall DPS for MT/OT, also would require nin shade ;3

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Is it worth it though? You'll miss a huge part of litany, trick and hypercharge during your berserk. I have heard some good wars say that it's not worth holding berserk that long just for the third berserk cleave.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Is it worth it though? You'll miss a huge part of litany, trick and hypercharge during your berserk. I have heard some good wars say that it's not worth holding berserk that long just for the third berserk cleave.

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huh you won't be holding it for long, you will pop zerk after second heavy swing would still get 2FCs in trick and have most of buffs up

its highest hitting opener was it you on MT or OT

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Originally Posted by Gildarts

huh you won't be holding it for long, you will pop zerk after second heavy swing would still get 2FCs in trick and have most of buffs up

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Yeah but litany and trick would only last until those first two cleaves, leaving the remaining 7 gcds in your berserk unbuffed, and hypercharge will only last halfway through your berserk. I just took a quick glance at the 5 fastest a12s clears on fflogs, 4 out of the 5 wars pop berserk around their first 3-4 gcds, and only one of them pop berserk after doing 2 combos in unchained (technically one of the 4 wars did a berserk triple cleave opener without unchained though, so we can rule that one out). Popping berserk earlier sacrifices the third cleave, but it won't be completely gone since you'll do it anyway after the berserk window, so it's a loss of 250 potency (excluding maim/eye), but you gain like 4 more berserk'd gcds under litany and trick.

I hope someone can clarify the math here. I was under the impression that holding berserk until after your second combo (third heavy swing) is not worth it if you have drg/nin/mch, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

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nope

you will be able to land 2fc plus butcher combo.

again you probably mistaken this opener with 7 gcds one, this one require Infuriate>wait30 sec raw or veng then pull around 10sec or so.

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Originally Posted by Gildarts

nope

you will be able to land 2fc plus butcher combo.

again you probably mistaken this opener with 7 gcds one, this one require Infuriate>wait30 sec raw or veng then pull around 10sec or so.

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There's some disadvantages to the 3x FC MT opener. Mainly that you'll need to delay Berserk by 4-5 GCDs meaning that, like aleph_null said, your TA window will be full of non-Berserk'd GCDs. On top of that by delaying Berserk you're also losing potential aggro generation, which could come back to haunt your DRK later. An even more important point, though, is that you're completely wasting RI or Vengeance as a defensive CD by popping it pre-pull. You're also delaying RI/Vengeance until after both FCs, this is especially harmful for Vengeance as now you're in a situation where you either need to have the WAR as MT for an even longer period of time (cutting into Reprisal and LB proc chance) or you have to swap and waste a bunch of Berserk'd Vengeance reflects.

Personally I'm a fan of this opener:

[Unchained] -> Tomahawk/Overpower -> [Foresight + Awareness] -> HS -> [Brutal Swing + Bloodbath] -> Maim -> [IR + RI] -> Eye -> [Berserk + Vengeance] -> HS -> SS -> [Equilibrium] -> BB -> [Deliverance] -> HS -> FC -> [Infuriate] -> FC -> Maim -> Eye -> Fracture -> [Pacify]

e: Should also mention that this is assuming we're using Unchained, if we forego Unchained then your TA alignment is better (since you're doing the standard 50s OT opener as MT) but you're also losing a ton of aggro (which means more PS), Defiance's HP buffer, and Equilibrium's heal.

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Originally Posted by Gildarts

nope

you will be able to land 2fc plus butcher combo.

again you probably mistaken this opener with 7 gcds one, this one require Infuriate>wait30 sec raw or veng then pull around 10sec or so.

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I thought we were talking about the unchained opener, I guess that was my bad. But if you want the aggro lead I'd sacrifice one berserk'd cleave for unchained. Not to mention berserk'd equilibrium can probably save a healer gcd or two during the opener.

This is what I thought you were talking about: Unchained > Tomahawk > Eye combo > Block combo > HS > Berserk > etc.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

[Unchained] -> Tomahawk/Overpower -> [Foresight + Awareness] -> HS -> [Brutal Swing + Bloodbath] -> Maim -> [IR + RI] -> Eye -> [Berserk + Vengeance] -> HS -> SS -> [Equilibrium] -> BB -> [Deliverance] -> HS -> FC -> [Infuriate] -> FC -> Maim -> Eye -> Fracture -> [Pacify]

e: Should also mention that this is assuming we're using Unchained, if we forego Unchained then your TA alignment is better (since you're doing the standard 50s OT opener as MT) but you're also losing a ton of aggro (which means more PS), Defiance's HP buffer, and Equilibrium's heal.

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Wait, how do you have unchained at the beginning, infuriate in the opener as well as RI+Vengeance? XD

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

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you are wrong dude, you will land the 2FCs and entire butcher combo in TA so you hardly lose anything.

as i mentioned hate will be close thats why in speed runs you need nin shade and as for CDS for busters you hardly need them, example A12S you will only need holmgang for heart+cleave and likely second one to be skip if the PT DPS is good if not, drk should have it by that time to either LD or w/e

you can check rushers videos at least they are out and you will see what i mean ;o

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

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well my bad im so bad at explaining i guess ;3

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Originally Posted by Gildarts

well my bad im so bad at explaining i guess ;3

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Nah it was definitely my mistake, I need to see an optician soon. :p

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Originally Posted by Gildarts

even with war pulling he can do 3FC opener, thats what most top groups do, they only have Defiance for tomahawk or overpower hate would be close however its best overall DPS for MT/OT, also would require nin shade ;3

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Welp anyway back on topic, I think losing one fell cleave for unchained might be worth it compared to the dps gain of the co-tank. Checking the fflogs upload of the fastest a12s clear in my server, the drk only does exactly 1 power slash on the boss during the whole fight after the war pulls with unchained, that's pretty awesome for such a long fight.

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Originally Posted by Gildarts

you are wrong dude, you will land the 2FCs and entire butcher combo in TA so you hardly lose anything.

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If you don't use Unchained, you're... sort of correct. TA would have to come up exactly when you used the first FC for it to line up with both your FCs and BB, and I feel like 99% of NINs have it up way before then. However, you will get 2x FC under TA. But as I explained you lose enmity, Defiance cushion, and Equilibrium.

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as i mentioned hate will be close thats why in speed runs you need nin shade and as for CDS for busters you hardly need them, example A12S you will only need holmgang for heart+cleave and likely second one to be skip if the PT DPS is good if not, drk should have it by that time to either LD or w/e

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A12S is a specific fight where you only need to survive til you Holmgang, after which point you will only take like an auto or two because Alex decides to Preys, stack circle, 2 AOEs, and then the expanded floor circles. There is essentially no damage on the tank past the cleave -> tank buster -> cleave bit. On top of this, the boss jumps after a certain point which means for the opening of the fight you only need to maintain enough enmity to not lose it to DPS/healers for the part where the boss is actually around. This, however, isn't the case for every fight, so in any case where your DRK will have to do more PS than it would otherwise have to, using Unchained is better.

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Wait, how do you have unchained at the beginning, infuriate in the opener as well as RI+Vengeance? XD

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Yeah, sorry, posted that as soon as I woke up and had a feeling I messed up somewhere in it. Second FC shouldn't be there, and Vengeance + Berserk / RI + IR should be swapped. Alternatively you can use RI to extend and get off 2x FC, but you'll lose RI mitigation in your opener so it largely depends on the fight. You're essentially trading the extra potency from the 2nd FC for Unchained's enmity, which imo will come out as a gain if you can get rid of 1~2 PS uses over the course of the entire fight.

Speaking of that I'd say that openers, in general, depend on the fight. It's very hard to say where each CD should be placed, who should be pulling, what external healer/DPS CDs you have access to, etc etc. As a general rule I'd say that WAR pulling is a helpful way to completely get rid of any enmity problems as well as completely get rid of needing to heal the MT for the opening of the fight. There are, however, cases where a DRK pulling could be better - such as any fight that needs Path up ASAP, as well as potentially Reprisal. But that is speaking on progressing on fights, which is a whole different world from farming/speedrunning. Anyway you basically just want to think about your group comp and what will net you the highest gDPS if we're talking about speedruns/farming which will always be the WAR pulling no matter what the opener is.

What about for a fight like A11S? That's the fight that we're doing right now. When do you guys think we should tank swap?

Additionally I talked about it to the rest of my static and they all seem adamant about trying it with me MT opening as Dark Knight, so I guess we'll be doing that.. ^^;;

I tried looking up some fflogs and there's quite the mixture of Dark Knights that open and those that don't. There's also a lot more PoVs of Dark Knights MTing by pulling. Is there a reason for this?

The Reason of too manyPoVs of DRK/PLD pulling is becaus People, well the most of them, still have the silly mindset of "I am the PLD/DRK, i am the MT here!"

There is NO real MT and NO real OT imo, all tanks are when played correctly viable in both postitions.

The only reason i can imagine why most people on a11S have their DRK/PLD pull is becaus of the add, but this will change once more People are BiS or Close to that/having more gear caus with enough DPS u can Skip the first E.D.D. and then it is 100% better to have the WAR to do the Pull for Overall more Raid DPS.

Thanks for all the replies thus far!

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Originally Posted by RamothElggur

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Yeah, I mean I simply use the terms to indicate whether one tank is tanking at the moment or not. I've found it rather silly to assign one tank to be MT and the other to be OT due to tank swapping. If we really had a MT and an OT, then mechanically the OT would just be a tanky DPS.

I had a pretty strong feeling that the Unchained opener was optimal, but I didn't really have any math or any reasoning behind it. It just felt right after thinking about tank openers. However, it seems like our group still intends on having me start the pull off, which is honestly a little frustrating since in my opinion, pulling as a Drk feels pretty bad and there is no point. We'll see how it turns out I guess since there's no actual harm in trying..

That being said, if one were to do the tank swap, I'm curious when best it'd be done in A11S if only because the E.D.D. spawns relatively early, doesn't it?

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Originally Posted by Amagiri

That being said, if one were to do the tank swap, I'm curious when best it'd be done in A11S if only because the E.D.D. spawns relatively early, doesn't it?

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I don't know what is the most optimal way, but in my group the WAR pulls, I tank the EDD as DRK and take over when it's dead. In a similar vein, after Eternal Darkness our WAR takes over again in order to abuse Holmgang on the double tank cleave, which leaves the EDD to me again, and I take over after it's dead. Same repeats in the last phase, WAR takes over just before Propeller Wind and eats cleave before EDD with Holmgang. I don't take over after the EDD there anymore because the boss is almost dead.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

I don't know what is the most optimal way, but in my group the WAR pulls, I tank the EDD as DRK and take over when it's dead. In a similar vein, after Eternal Darkness our WAR takes over again in order to abuse Holmgang on the double tank cleave, which leaves the EDD to me again, and I take over after it's dead. Same repeats in the last phase, WAR takes over just before Propeller Wind and eats cleave before EDD with Holmgang. I don't take over after the EDD there anymore because the boss is almost dead.

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If your DPS is enough, you can skip 1st Optical Sight straight to EDD. AFAIK this is easier to achieve if WAR pulls first, this is also useful for later because you want to get sub 61% to skip the whole Lapis Lazuli phase. You want to push Limit Cut asap or boss will run away if you get 63% before sword which happens quite a lot for my team because we still have me pulling that fight and we have to actually stop dps a bit to ensure we get the skip.

The logic behind trying to push boss asap to cast Limit Cut is because the more you let boss casts Optical Sight, the more dps you can output which leads to the 63% jump straight after the Limit Cut, normally jumping before boss casts the left/right sword.

Link: https://youtu.be/bYjYswK60S8

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

boss will run away if you get 63% before sword

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First world problem lol, the only few times my group managed to skip lapis properly were when one of the dps died.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

If you can pull it off, you can top the Unchained opener if you pull out of Grit, but only if you have a NIN that is willing to Shadewalker you at least twice. You may have to Powerslash a few extra times but that loss is paltry compared to having Grit on.

If you have no NIN or your healers don't like the idea, then yeah I'd default to the Unchained opener. Or your WAR could just pull in Deliverance with Shadewalker since BB is part of their DPS rotation.

Basically you take a big loss pulling in Grit, your WAR takes a small loss Unchained pulling, and you both take almost no loss at all with a Gritless pull. You'll just need an industrious NIN to pick up that slack with Shadewalker and possibly Smokescreen.

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To be honest, while people are against it, I use Dark Arts + Power Slash, then continue on my way, rather than a couple of Power Slash spams.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

To be honest, while people are against it, I use Dark Arts + Power Slash, then continue on my way, rather than a couple of Power Slash spams.

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This caught my interest. The consensus is that DAPS isn't particularly useful, but I've never sat down and figured out what the trade-off actually was. If we compare the amount of enmity generated by a combo over Delirium to the potency loss (again, compared to Delirium), we should be able to measure its efficiency.

Grit: 2.7x
SpS: 770 enmity potency (3.5x)
PS: 1650 enmity potency (5.5x)
DAPS: 1950 enmity potency (6.5x)

Already you can see that DAPS isn't a great deal, as you're spending one DA usage to gain 300 enmity potency. This becomes slightly better in Grit, where you spend one DA usage to gain 810 enmity potency.

There are two costs for using PS. One is the potency loss, and the other is the MP loss from a missed Siphon Strike, as well as potentially the cost of one DA usage. One DA is equal to two Siphon Strikes, so PS costs 1 SS, and DAPS costs 3 SS. One DA usage is equal to 120 potency (DASE over Del), so these are 60 and 180 potency losses, respectively.

Note: These are net potency values, made in comparison to the potency and enmity generated from the Delirium combo.

PS:
Net Cost: 70/combo
Net Enmity Gain: 1890/combo
27 enmity per potency lost

DAPS:
Net Cost: 190/combo
Net Enmity Gain: 2150/combo
11 enmity per potency lost

Grit + PS:
Net Cost: 204/combo
Net Enmity Gain: 6259/combo
30 enmity per potency lost

Grit + DAPS:
Net Cost: 324/combo
Net Enmity Gain: 7069/combo
22 enmity per potency lost

The short of it is DAPS is always less efficient than PS, both with and without Grit. Enmity combos are always more efficient when performed in Grit. DAPS would have a role in the opener if the extra 800 enmity potency prevented a second PS combo, but if you need more than one combo, chances are that you'll need to progress to a second full PS anyways. Unfortunately, proceeding to a second combo has some pretty poor synergy with other jobs' opening raid buffs, so it ends up being a sizeable dps loss.

The cost of a missed GCD on DRK varies between 150 and 280 (227 on average). If you have to turn on Grit to do PS or DAPS, the efficiency drops to 15 enmity per potency lost and 11 enmity per potency lost, respectively. So turning Grit back on just to build more enmity isn't particularly efficient. Always better to get the enmity correct at the start.

Most of this is probably common sense, but that's the math.