Just some toughts from (relativly) new player

Hi everyone its 1st tiem im posting here. I started playign ff xiv like 3 months ago and so far im finding mor e things to like than to dislike.

The ones i like most is story, and that every class i played so far feels diffrent than others. Also crafting.

What i dislake most is that there is little customnization for classes - from what i seen so far every warrior will have the same stat distribution and the same cross-class skills.
Also crafting (when i faill several 90% succes chance actions in row).

I also would liek to say that Dark Knight 30-50 story was one of best stories in mmo i ever saw. Really, devs did wonderfull job on this one.

So yeh, ahve nice day everyone, and see you in game.

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Originally Posted by cr00cy

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As Yoshida once said in an interview, "If you want a different way of playing a role, just change classes." I do not personally agree with it, but that's the dev lead's vision, so for now the player base has to deal with it until the game hits a point where a new vision is necessary.

Why do people ask for this stuff? All people will do is follow some meta that is found out by the 1% of players and shun any and everybody who doesn't follow said meta.

Hello Cr00cy,
You will have to live with the bad customisation of classes/jobs in Final I fear.
They made it pretty clear with every patch cicle that they want to take away choice from the player as much as possible.
The moment you take up your Job crystal you will not only be limited to half the number of crossclass skill slots the number of avaiable skills will also decrease quit a bit. somewhere in 2.x the took away the viability of str and dex for additionall defensive strength (dex increased the number of parrys and blocks while str increased the strenght, dex was normally not increased willingly for that, but at least it was possible).
Tanks in the past could choose between a str or vit (or mixed) build depending on how much defence they needed, this changed during 3.x, it is kind of reasonable as tanks were the only class at that point having viable builds and also beeing the only class that needs multiple pieces of equipment depending on the encounter, it still takes away from the customisation of your Job.
Now recently they overhauled sword oath (paladin) in the past you could uncrease the damage done with sword oath by choosing a sword with higher auto attack frecuenzy, the last patch made it so that the frequenzy does no longer matter.

They also already said that they work on the crossclass skills for 4.0 and that they want to make them more specific to the jobs role instead of the job itself and while it is somewhat hard to speculate about this just now I personally would be pretty upset if my stoneskin is going away^^.

For the crafting part, that one is just statistic. You will fail some at 99% you will make some at 1% get a large enough sample size and it will look exactly as the percentage shown to you.

Have fun playing the game,
Tam

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Originally Posted by cammi

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People say this a lot but its pretty inaccurate. I was able to full clear mythic raids in WoW:WoD with a couple of custom talent builds for my DK and Hunter (more for survivability) rather than said "meta" for each. It really comes down the group of people you work with and not a bunch of randoms.

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Originally Posted by cammi

Why do people ask for this stuff? All people will do is follow some meta that is found out by the 1% of players and shun any and everybody who doesn't follow said meta.

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Is Diablo II too old that people already forgot the multiple viable builds you could do with each class ?

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

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I'm saying this as someone who made a speed slayer in Tera when every other slayer was crit and power. And I soloed 90% of Tera with my custom slayer. I'm not saying it doesn't work, what I meant by saying that is it IS pointless. You're right it is about the groups you are going to be running with. And what are 90% of them going to be running? The meta. Want a real world example? The Division. You have all kinds of builds in that game... what do people do? Smart cover or go home. IT's pretty much the meta until it's changed. And even with the update coming up in 2 days people in the chat of State of the game were trying to find a NEW meta. So again I'm not saying you're wrong, but it is pointless as most people want to follow and get instant results instead of trying new things out.And as long as that's the case the meta will be the standard and you will be laughed at if you don't do it. Another example is the dungeon thread on this site. How many times do people on this very game complain about people NOT doing the meta or not doing their job?

I'm not going to hope people will all of a sudden be understanding on going against the meta... as that doesn't happen.

to be honest the roles cross class thingy does bpther me, esp for paladin and seeing what they did with bard since 1.x its not looking very happy....

the signs are all there though clemency no need for cc cure(never was one honestly) then divine veil(itsh an aoe stoneskin, why need stoneskin?)

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Originally Posted by cr00cy

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Depending in how stormblood affects the system, before the vitality change, there was some options for tanks, like going full str,vit or both, but that really started to cause problems, beginner players were being told to go full str even though until they started to get good at the game, they should really stay vit for extra mistake hp and less stress on healers, mean while those of us that had almost full vit, found it incredibly hard to hold aggro when gearing up, this honestly caused a split, some tanks wanted to be, you know, tanks, and not care about damage, while others wanted to simply be beefier dps.

Both sides complained, healers complained due to increased stress on them for this whole "str or nothing" meta
This all stemmed from a over tuned savage tier that caused a sever trickle down effect, this caused even newer players to shun paladins, due to lack of damage, even though they were clearly the better tank in terms of mitigation

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

why need stoneskin?

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No cooldown and can have effect on the PLD itself.

Like most things coming from 1.x, instead of balancing an interesting system, they switched to a boring one.

They tried to simplify tanking as much as possible to get more people to tank. Vitality changes and upcoming role changes.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No cooldown and can have effect on the PLD itself.

Like most things coming from 1.x, instead of balancing an interesting system, they switched to a boring one.

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yes but its very possible that it will get annexed out of the "roles specific list" right? Thats all I
m saying

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Originally Posted by cammi

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Metas develop for a reason. Even if the advantages are miniscule, it's worth pursuing them for that edge. There's nothing wrong with intentionally playing a weak option...in a single player game. But, when you have teammates, it's rude to lower the group performance because you want to be unique.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Metas develop for a reason. Even if the advantages are miniscule, it's worth pursuing them for that edge. There's nothing wrong with intentionally playing a weak option...in a single player game. But, when you have teammates, it's rude to lower the group performance because you want to be unique.

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Again this is why I don't understand why people ask for different setups when you just proved why it will never happen. This post right here proves what I was saying on page one. :c

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

yes but its very possible that it will get annexed out of the "roles specific list" right? Thats all I
m saying

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Indeed, it would be weird to give Stoneskin to every tank out of nowhere...
But if you remove everything that is not "tanky", PLD and WAR can lose a lot of skills, whereas DRK wouldn't be changed much.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Is Diablo II too old that people already forgot the multiple viable builds you could do with each class ?

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Apparently yes. Also people honestly believe that everyone would copy the one viable build used by hardcore raiders, even if they wouldn't touch a savage raid with a ten feet pole.
For the record I would go with the least practical one for roleplay reasons.
The safest would be to have ability glamours. I posted this in another wishlist/plan/whatever thread. It wouldn't affect gameplay (negating the one viable build argument) but people could play around with changing flmae color or switching thrown daggers for cards or shuriken. If we get Egi glamour anyway, why not?

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Originally Posted by cammi

Why do people ask for this stuff? All people will do is follow some meta that is found out by the 1% of players and shun any and everybody who doesn't follow said meta.

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Speak for yourself. Like some, I prefer to make my own build and master it, customizing it to suit my own preferences. People ask for it because this is an MMORPG. We want to customize our own characters. Period.

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Originally Posted by cammi

Again this is why I don't understand why people ask for different setups when you just proved why it will never happen. This post right here proves what I was saying on page one. :c

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Its not really about lowering one's potential but rather allowing people to enjoy a class that best suits their play style. A prime example is maybe frost mage in wow's current legion build. Sure you can have more casting oriented talent build, but you can also choose things that lend to being able to survive longer or have more passives vs direct abilities, etc. It honestly doesn't make you less viable and the person is able to play the class comfortably. Metas don't guarantee that everyone can pull off said build accurately. There's too many factors that come into play, such as ping, the person's own awareness level and so on, which is why some games give you options to remain viable if those issues arise.

The subjob system in FFXI is another thing that some people like to say was 'pointless' having so many options since many didn't get utilized on a regular basis; however, it depends. If you have an optimal set up, you're more than likely not gonna sub dnc or nin over war, but it exists in the event you do not have an optimal group that day or maybe you want to do multiple things at once (such as multiple limbus runs or 2 hnms pop are in the same window). Not to mention, people aren't doing group content 100% of the time they play. Options allow people to play the classes they want in various situations rather than having a class for each and every situation.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Speak for yourself. Like some, I prefer to make my own build and master it, customizing it to suit my own preferences. People ask for it because this is an MMORPG. We want to customize our own characters. Period.

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I wasn't speaking for myself, I was speaking for every time this comes up people prove that's not what they want. They prove this by following the 1% every single time and almost every single game. Hell in my example in the game Tera I made a speed slayer, you can guess how that went. That's not how it's played and you get shuned and laughed at by everyone else cause everyone says they want to be different but being different doesn't get them those numbers. The Division has many different builds, but most people only do like one or two. Everything else is crap as far as the playerbase says. So what was the point?

I'm not for or against this by the way, I'm just numb to it cause I've only seen it play out one way. And thats people following that one guide on how to play instead of doing their own thing. People do this in all content, dungeons, classes, etc etc. That is why I called the question pointless, so telling me to speak for myself was just a weak insult that does no damage. If people REALLY want that then they should in turn change how they treat other people who DO different things instead of complain and or kick/both. What am I saying? World peace? People agreeing? I must be going insane LOOL. Anyway yeah, that's where I stand. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by cammi

They prove this by following the 1% every single time and almost every single game.

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Well, I don't think so. Like I said, in Diablo II, there were lots of viable builds. Perhaps some of them were more powerful in a way, but as long as you can clear the content, it's not that big of a deal in the end. For example, a friend decided to take skills in the three talents tree for its Sorceress. It has lower damage number than a one or two element sorceress, but it could always kill any ennemies since they can't have more than two immunities.

You could make different builds in FFXIV without any issue for several reasons. First, 90% of the content doesn't need you to be fully optimal. In fact, the difference is so thin that most of the time people don't even look at what you do as long as everything go smooth. Second, apart from joining the party finder, no one has any control on the party composition, so you won't be forbidden to join a duty by not following the supposed optimal route. And finally, even if you decide to go optimal because you're interested in raiding, you could always follow the optimal build for one job, and be creative on others for roulettes, solo content, etc...

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Originally Posted by cammi

I wasn't speaking for myself, I was speaking for every time this comes up people prove that's not what they want. They prove this by following the 1% every single time and almost every single game. Hell in my example in the game Tera I made a speed slayer, you can guess how that went. That's not how it's played and you get shuned and laughed at by everyone else cause everyone says they want to be different but being different doesn't get them those numbers. The Division has many different builds, but most people only do like one or two. Everything else is crap as far as the playerbase says. So what was the point?

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Sounds like a personal issue if your worried about what other players think. Just because you decide to wear a nights cap and I think its tacky doesn't mean you should give a damn what I think as long as you like it. The point is choice. We can choose how we play, and how we go about things. If one situation is best suited for another, we can improvise on our weaknesses or strengths and make it work close or sometimes better than the BIS stuff. If your scared of it thats fine, just remember no ones saying you have to change anything.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Speak for yourself. Like some, I prefer to make my own build and master it, customizing it to suit my own preferences. People ask for it because this is an MMORPG. We want to customize our own characters. Period.

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Agreed. When I'm making gear sets, I base them off of the stats I find desirable for the job the gear set is for. I don't really go off of the hardcore raider BiS. I base them off of the stats that seem appealing to me. Same goes for when I'm doing my openers. Some times I use an opener a friend gave me. But for some I do one that I prefer because of flow.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Sounds like a personal issue if your worried about what other players think. Just because you decide to wear a nights cap and I think its tacky doesn't mean you should give a damn what I think as long as you like it. The point is choice. We can choose how we play, and how we go about things. If one situation is best suited for another, we can improvise on our weaknesses or strengths and make it work close or sometimes better than the BIS stuff. If your scared of it thats fine, just remember no ones saying you have to change anything.

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Ok.. WTF I JUST said this wasn't my problem and I was only explaining why I thought it was pointless. I'm not worried about S*** other people do, do you see me asking for this crap? NO. I was only saying how I thought it was pointless because 90% of players are just going to follow some meta and call it a day. Sorry I have a different opinion but that's life. No need to throw insults around like a child. Sides there's better things to do, like eat icecream and play video games.

I have to agree here...
As much as I like customisation, Cammi is right.
In every MMO I've been in (EQ, FFXI, WoW, Warhammer: AoR, Age of Conan, Division, just off the top of my head) when you get into a pug group the following happens:
- Whats your spec?
- If it's not <insert flavor of the month build>
- Kicked.
I've been playing MMOs for 16 years now, raiding in every one of them, and 90% of the time, things like that happen. RARELY will you find a group of randoms that will "tolerate" a custom build outside of what's "optimal."

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Originally Posted by Sigmar_Heldenhammer

I have to agree here...
As much as I like customisation, Cammi is right.
In every MMO I've been in (EQ, FFXI, WoW, Warhammer: AoR, Age of Conan, Division, just off the top of my head) when you get into a pug group the following happens:
- Whats your spec?
- If it's not <insert flavor of the month build>
- Kicked.
I've been playing MMOs for 16 years now, raiding in every one of them, and 90% of the time, things like that happen. RARELY will you find a group of randoms that will "tolerate" a custom build outside of what's "optimal."

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Thank you for getting my point man. What you wrote is the normal experience that happens, hell you can even see this in the dungeon thread on this very site. People get kicked for simple mistakes. So again I wonder why people ask for this only to follow a meta and shun everyone else who doesn't follow said meta.

I think people ask for this because we all hope that it will finally happen as we wish it would. I know I do.
I loved FFXI, for example, and absolutely loved my Dark Knigh/Black Mage, but sadly the flavor of the month was Dark Knight/Warrior, and after countless kicks, I gave up on the game and moved on to other things.
Also, I think clicking through a talent tree, even if you end up picking the meta feels a bit more personal than having the game make the choice for you.

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Originally Posted by cammi

Ok.. WTF I JUST said this wasn't my problem and I was only explaining why I thought it was pointless. I'm not worried about S*** other people do, do you see me asking for this crap? NO. I was only saying how I thought it was pointless because 90% of players are just going to follow some meta and call it a day. Sorry I have a different opinion but that's life. No need to throw insults around like a child. Sides there's better things to do, like eat icecream and play video games.

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Geez I wasn't insulting you. I said the hat thing as an example, it actually looks fine on miqote's. Everyone else it just looks a like a tribute to Scrooge.

Anyways, That 90% your talking about is the Raid tier players and those who are unfamiliar with class building which are about 10-20% being raid tier and 35-40%% being the average player, then you have veteran mmo players, 40-50% who experienced some of these things and on occasion participate in raids but not as much as raiders usually do. When you don't know what to do and your unfamiliar with the game you look for guides, thats where BIS comes to play. If your playing and your familiar with standard mmos or general game builds you form your own. When I said scared I meant in a way as in "fear of change" its not unheard of.

Anyways as you said you think its pointless, thats cool, I just think its a nice way to give the player's more control on their characters growth as a whole. I respect your opinion, no hard feelings. :)

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Post limit is getting sued.

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My bad for the anger, text is hard. No hard feelings on my end either. This just comes up more than once and it's the same two sides butting heads all the time. And seeing it ingame in various games I became abit jaded on the subject. Honestly I myself wouldn't mind it, but sadly it's everyone else that'll shoot something like that down because everyone is following that meta or whatever. The best way is for both, but I haven't seen a game to pull that off. The Division is what comes close to mind and even that game players aren't that forgiving.

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Originally Posted by Sigmar_Heldenhammer

In every MMO I've been in (EQ, FFXI, WoW, Warhammer: AoR, Age of Conan, Division, just off the top of my head) when you get into a pug group the following happens:

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In FFXIV, when you get into a pug group, the following happens :
{Hello} (Optionnal)
run starts
run goes smoothly
run ends
{Congratulations}{See you again} (Optionnal)

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Originally Posted by cammi

People get kicked for simple mistakes.

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Yes, mistakes. If you lose aggro too much, you're a bad tank, it you don't heal, you're a bad healer, if you only auto-attack, you're a bad DPS. If you're doing your job, people don't care if you're not optimal. What was the last time you kicked your tank/your healer in a dungeon because it wasn't a WAR/SCH ?

As Kurogea said, the optimal builds really only pertain to those that hardcore raid, which in reality is a very small fraction of the entire player base of any game (WoW included). Sure 90% of that population will care about your stats/talents/etc but the other 85% of the realistic player base wont as long as you're semi-competent as Reynhart said. So when you look at it in reality, player choice affects more than this 90% that was mentioned which again is only 90% of the hardcore community, which yet again, is only 15% of the general community of any mmorpg. I say 15% because Yoshida was saying numbers were around there on full Midas Savage clears.

I wish it only pertains to the raiding community... unfortunately they get the most "highlight" in the community. When new players join the game they look for "guides". These, more often than not, are compiled by people who pay an insane amount of attention to the smallest differences in numbers and contain optimal rotations and details that should only pertain to the raiding portion if the game. What do we get in response? Strength edgelords in duty finder who pull large rooms without tank stance who retort "git guud scrub, I read xxxxx's guide so you don't know wut you're talking about" once they tank the floor. Or those dragoons that push Ifrit's stun tolerance through the roof so you can't stun eruptions just to squeeze in some numbers with leg sweep and spineshatter dive.

That said, I'm all for customization but maybe it would be much smoother if guides and the internet didn't exist as a form of playstyle critique.

There's nothing wrong with playing or building your own way. I applaud people that find their own way to do things. But, for a minute, think about things like:

Blizzard Wizards
Bards who don't sing
Warriors who don't take Provoke

You can see where I'm going with this. It's frustrating to have someone you're counting on play so poorly. There is a bare minimum of competence that people expect in group content, and not meeting it makes you a liability and a hindrance to everyone else in your party.

Where is that minimum? Good question. Everyone has different ideas for that. I won't say that everything has to be perfectly optimal when you play, but it should be good enough that you don't end up as a funny story on Reddit. Never forget "It's my play style".

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Originally Posted by Artamie

That said, I'm all for customization but maybe it would be much smoother if guides and the internet didn't exist as a form of playstyle critique.

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The problem is that vetran often tell new players to look for a guide instead of learning from the game itself. I understand looking for a guide if you bump into a real obstacle you can't overcome, but as long as your progression is fine, why narrowing yourself to what other people claim to be good ?

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Blizzard Wizards
Bards who don't sing
Warriors who don't take Provoke

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These situations can occur wether we have customization or not. You can't justify removing options because some people might take the very obviously bad ones.