DF Penalty from withdrawing from a party in progress should be removed

Removed because reasons

edit: seriously, stop responding, I removed the thread content

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No thank you. You want to leave and not help the party you signed up for then you deserve a penalty.

shouldn't you just un-check 'in-progress duty' if you keep getting shoved towards the same 70-minutes-in group? I don't think you should be able to play roulette with the in-progress queue looking for a 'good' match, that kind of defeats the purpose imo.

Go queue with friends if you want to cherry pick your duties.

No.

If you have issues with dropping into a DF that has a good amount of time into it, uncheck the "enter in progress" button. I understand not wanting to deal with a disastrous group, but nothing is forcing you to take the chance in the first place.

I usually pop in, ask what happened. If the answer was they finally kicked the couple who stopped for ERP every pull I might stay. If I find it to be an awful group I might urge to vote abandon/ask for a kick. Otherwise I would just bail eat my penalty. In DF you get what you get and you deal with it. Don't pick 'in progress' if you aren't willing to deal with a party that probably had problems so someone left.

This made me chuckle tho, considering.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Make your own party if you don't like the fact that sometimes PF will match you up with someone who will just end up being dead weight you have to carry.

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Well the OP is reffering to get punished for declining an invite for an in progress group which i kind of understand since you do not get punished if you join in and then immediatly leave afterwards because there is no punishment for leaving in progress groups if you are the one who joined.

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If you have issues with dropping into a DF that has a good amount of time into it, uncheck the "enter in progress" button.

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This.

The inprog option is a potentially double-edged sword. You might end up being able to skip a good portion of the duty and still get credit for completion, or you might end up with a craptastic group (that likely warranted the departure of whoever you end up replacing) that ends up taking more of your time than normal. That's the gamble you take with it.

Nobody's forcing you to use the option, though.

Another thing worth noting is that if you join an inprog and the party is still incomplete (like, you hop in to Wiping City and you see your party is 3/8 members), you are permitted to just leave as soon as you see that and you won't be penalized (penalty only applies to the person that leaves a full group)

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Well the OP is reffering to get punished for declining an invite for an in progress group which i kind of understand since you do not get punished if you join in and then immediatly leave afterwards because there is no punishment for leaving in progress groups if you are the one who joined.

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This is not true. You only do not get penalized if the group is still not full.

Penalty for ditching a group is solely dependent on whether or not the group had all of its members. If you join inprog and the party is back up to 4/4 as a result, you will be penalized if you leave.

No it shouldn't be removed. It's there to prevent exactly what you're proposing. You are aware of the penalty, therefore your choices are to accept it, or get through the instance. Without the penalty, far too many players would leave on a moments notice for who knows how many reasons why.

I suggest you try to help in anyway you can to get a struggling group through an instance. If it's truly a hornets nest, then just accept the penalty. It's nowhere as bad as being grouped up with a bunch of jerks.

I must admit, I'm of the opposite feeling. Personally, I believe the penalty isn't enough (it should be say a 72 hour penalty, no, I'm serious). Oh and this includes getting kicked from a duty (will be lifted if you can prove to the GMs that you were kicked through no fault of your own). And if you go offline for a decent period of time in duty it auto-kicks and applies the penalty. Maybe also make it so if you go offline multiple times, after going offline for the n'th time, auto-kicked and penalised. Same for if you're AFK for a period of time. As well as it being made clear to the group through the message system if someone is refusing to engage in the battle with mobs, you should kick them for AFK.

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I must admit, I'm of the opposite feeling. Personally, I believe the penalty isn't enough (it should be say a 72 hour penalty, no, I'm serious). Oh and this includes getting kicked from a duty (will be lifted if you can prove to the GMs that you were kicked through no fault of your own). And if you go offline for a decent period of time in duty it auto-kicks and applies the penalty. Maybe also make it so if you go offline multiple times, after going offline for the n'th time, auto-kicked and penalised. Same for if you're AFK for a period of time. As well as it being made clear to the group through the message system if someone is refusing to engage in the battle with mobs, you should kick them for AFK.

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I do agree that 30 minutes isn't enough of a deterrent to troll behavior, but your post lost merit with those bolded statements. Not that it matters, because GMs aren't going to want to have to deal with the endless "player disputes" that would result from changes like that and therefore they won't be made to begin with.

I wonder if you realize that sometimes people actually legitimately lose their internet connections through no fault of their own. I also wonder what makes you think these people deserve to lose their DF privileges for 72 hours as a result.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

This is not true. You only do not get penalized if the group is still not full.

Penalty for ditching a group is solely dependent on whether or not the group had all of its members. If you join inprog and the party is back up to 4/4 as a result, you will be penalized if you leave.

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My experience is different. When Palace of the Dead was released and I got matched in progress on foor 49 (there was no checkbox for in progess anyway and joining in progress on that floor happend a lot to me) I immediately left the group and most of the time we were full and never did I receive any form of punishment. I do not know if potd is an exception but it matches groups through df so the rules should be the same because I did get punished once for declining the invite itself but not for leaving full groups after I joined.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

No thank you. You want to leave and not help the party you signed up for then you deserve a penalty.

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This, a million times over. What's the point in using the "join in progress" if you will just leave? I'm honest when I say that I joined MANY groups and we cleared...with new people there...or after waiting for more to join.

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Originally Posted by Deus-ExMachina

My experience is different. When Palace of the Dead was released and I got matched in progress on foor 49 (there was no checkbox for in progess anyway and joining in progress on that floor happend a lot to me) I immediately left the group and most of the time we were full and never did I receive any form of punishment. I do not know if potd is an exception but it matches groups through df so the rules should be the same because I did get punished once for declining the invite itself but not for leaving full groups after I joined.

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PotD went by whatever you had set for the regular duty finder.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

This is not true. You only do not get penalized if the group is still not full.

Penalty for ditching a group is solely dependent on whether or not the group had all of its members. If you join inprog and the party is back up to 4/4 as a result, you will be penalized if you leave.

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No, this is not true, you don't get penalized if you leave after joining a group in progress, go try it if you want. Since you don't know the circumstances in the new group SE doesn't force you to stay when you go in progress.


To clarify:

If you enter a duty normally from the start, you can only leave without penalty if the party is not full.

If you enter a duty in progress you can leave without penalty anytime you want regardless if the party is full or not.

Back when I still played this game, I used to queue IP Wiping Cities for fun. Sometimes I'd ask what happened ("last healer was bad/ragequit" were the most frequent responses I'd get), but most of the time I never bothered cuz eh, I usually found out pretty quickly whether the group was terrible or not.

The kicker, though? I WANTED terrible groups. Weeping City is absolutely a place where, barring a few mechanics, a super-good healer can totally carry their group, and I loved salvaging terrible runs from the brink of vote abandon, while flexing my reaction times and healer muscle to do so. I'd be rolling in praise and comms at the end, all for something as simple as not wigging out on the fact that people sometimes aren't very good at the game and that can lead to problems once in a while.

tl;dr OP give me all your awful IP runs I'd love to try and salvage them instead of put them in the queue dumpster as is your preference.

Can we, at least get some pomanders that change us into healing or tanking creatures ? I get the feeling of wanting to leave when it's last floors and 4 DPS :/

What if this is the case?

https://www.facebook.com/gamingvid/v...7300500318885/

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Originally Posted by Celef

Can we, at least get some pomanders that change us into healing or tanking creatures ? I get the feeling of wanting to leave when it's last floors and 4 DPS :/

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Unless your party is braindead, you can easily clear the dungeon with 4 DPS. Or you can start your progress as a healer/tank next time. Queue times would be shorter if more people were to heal and tank.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Unless your party is braindead, you can easily clear the dungeon with 4 DPS. Or you can start your progress as a healer/tank next time. Queue times would be shorter if more people were to heal and tank.

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Used to go healer but now i want my second main's weapon, am I not allowed to ? ^^"

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Originally Posted by Celef

Used to go healer but now i want my second main's weapon, am I not allowed to ? ^^"

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You know the weapon you get has nothing to do with the job you go on right?

Although they are wrong about "queue times would be shorter if" because potd queue ignores roles.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

You know the weapon you get has nothing to do with the job you go on right?

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Really ? honestly i did not know that, when i ended my WM weapon they only offered me the WM weapon :eek:

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

You know the weapon you get has nothing to do with the job you go on right?

Although they are wrong about "queue times would be shorter if" because potd queue ignores roles.

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Originally Posted by Celef

Really ? honestly i did not know that, when i ended my WM weapon they only offered me the WM weapon :eek:

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The NPC offers you a weapon based on your current job. So you could do the dungeon for WHM the entire time and get the weapon as a PLD if you wanted.

And my interjection on queue times was for content in general, not specifically for this dungeon. So many people want to do stuff as DPS.

Nope, I remember when we didn't have the penalty and it was a mess with scooters and trolls.

Hell I would support a harder penalty.

Only time i'd want to see it removed is if i'm specifically trying to get into a certain duty because a friend has asked for help on the last boss and the df keeps queing me into one at the first boss. or even a fresh party entirely.

i'm not queueing for tomes or rewards or anything such i'm queiing solely to try and help that friend finish his duty so when it tries to put me in a different group kinda defeats the purpose.

keep hoping they'll one day allow an invite feature so the friend that needs help can invite me specifically to that duty. instead of taking the duty finder gamble and risk finding myself in a different group who then get annoyed cos I leave.

DF penalty came ingame because people left in-progress parties.
Why should SE now remove it for them?

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

I must admit, I'm of the opposite feeling. Personally, I believe the penalty isn't enough (it should be say a 72 hour penalty, no, I'm serious). Oh and this includes getting kicked from a duty (will be lifted if you can prove to the GMs that you were kicked through no fault of your own). And if you go offline for a decent period of time in duty it auto-kicks and applies the penalty. Maybe also make it so if you go offline multiple times, after going offline for the n'th time, auto-kicked and penalised. Same for if you're AFK for a period of time. As well as it being made clear to the group through the message system if someone is refusing to engage in the battle with mobs, you should kick them for AFK.

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wth is this, Jail Time Online? God man you need a hug

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

And my interjection on queue times was for content in general, not specifically for this dungeon. So many people want to do stuff as DPS.

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Fair enough.

And wait, was this something changed in 3.4? Because there is (or at least was) no penalty if you ditch a party you joined in progress.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Fair enough.

And wait, was this something changed in 3.4? Because there is (or at least was) no penalty if you ditch a party you joined in progress.

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if the party you join isn't full you don't get the penalty for leaving.
if it's full you do.

often why soon as one person bails and eats the penalty other bail because if they get out before someone joins and fills it they don't eat the penalty

No the penalty does not need to be removed you just need to uncheck the in progress box if you have it marked.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I do agree that 30 minutes isn't enough of a deterrent to troll behavior, but your post lost merit with those bolded statements. Not that it matters, because GMs aren't going to want to have to deal with the endless "player disputes" that would result from changes like that and therefore they won't be made to begin with.

I wonder if you realize that sometimes people actually legitimately lose their internet connections through no fault of their own. I also wonder what makes you think these people deserve to lose their DF privileges for 72 hours as a result.

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Well something has to be done about troll behaviour, and the reason I put the stuff in bold in is to try and stop the get out of jail free card by getting kicked or disconnecting until the end of the dungeon. It's harsh, but I'm not sure what else we can do to combat trolls. If someone legitimately lost connection and can prove it to the GMs, then it'd be reversed. I agree, I forgot to include that statement in my original post. But that's the thing, we need to find more improved ways to combat the trolls. If my ideas don't work (as you say they don't), what else can we do to combat it?

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Originally Posted by SinisterJointss

wth is this, Jail Time Online? God man you need a hug

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If it combats trolls, so be it.

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Originally Posted by Celef

Really ? honestly i did not know that, when i ended my WM weapon they only offered me the WM weapon :eek:

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Change into the job you want the weapon for then talk to the guy. You can go in as any job and when you get to 30/30 switch to the job you want the weapon for and talk to the guy to keep it. Don't have to play that job in POTD to get the weapon.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

If someone legitimately lost connection and can prove it to the GMs, then it'd be reversed.

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I mean, I'm happy to hear that you've literally never had connection trouble in your life, but there's no real proof that your connection died. Especially if it's on your ISPs end. Honestly it sounds to me like you just want to troll people yourself, getting people blocked from dutyfinder for 72 hours because they lost connection is straight up trolling.

What was that quote? "He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster"

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Originally Posted by Xiao_

I mean, I'm happy to hear that you've literally never had connection trouble in your life, but there's no real proof that your connection died. Especially if it's on your ISPs end. Honestly it sounds to me like you just want to troll people yourself, getting people blocked from dutyfinder for 72 hours because they lost connection is straight up trolling.

What was that quote? "He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster"

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Actually, I HAVE lost my connection before. And enough such that if this was in-game I'd get locked out for 72 hours. And as I said, if someone can show me some better ideas for how to combat trolls, I'm all ears. The thing is, I'm already aware that my idea has flaws. And actually no, this isn't trolling. Unless I can hear some other ideas, I am deadly serious. And last time someone pushed me to the point of proving how much I stand by my opinions, I got banned from the forums for 10 days because I went to the far extreme on how much I stood by my opinions. Even though everything I said was deadly serious. Oh, and I did speak to the GMs about it, they refused to permanently ban me on that occasion because it was a first offfence.

However, I get you about it being difficult to prove, that was a short-sightedness on my part. But as I say, I don't know what other options we have here. At least with the severity of what I'd come out with, it closes multiple loopholes for trolls.

I don't think the "unless you can come up with something better, my idea stands" is ideal whatsoever. Longer penalties are needed, but a 3 day ban from all in game content just screams comically serious.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

I don't think the "unless you can come up with something better, my idea stands" is ideal whatsoever. Longer penalties are needed, but a 3 day ban from all in game content just screams comically serious.

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Others might not like my idea, and that's ok, but like I've mentioned in my previous post, I haven't seen any other ideas. And I did read the thread, and while it's entirely possible there were ideas that I missed (I am human after all, and there are things that I don't always see), I didn't see any other ideas about how to combat it. But here's the thing, so far we've surmised from my suggestion that longer penalties are a good idea. But the disconnection issues are a gaping flaw in the idea. What middle ground therefore can we propose to try and tighten up trolls (the other parts of my idea that people say made it lost merit were designed so that the trolls didn't have loopholes to get around it. I was trying to be very thorough in closing up loopholes on that front), but without it putting legitimate players who have connection issues and stuff at too much of a disadvantage?

I can accept that the "unless you can come up with something better, my idea stands" way my post came across causes further issues, and for that I apologise. It's just in my eyes, in the absence of other ideas, I personally stand by my idea. Let's put forward some other ideas, have a good discussion about them, and find a middle ground. As bullheaded as I may seem, presented with compelling ideas, I do listen.

As far as I seen with most online games in the past several years, disconnects are either ignored or treated as a loss and I believe it's because no one knows how to handle such a situation. I mean, if I lost power and had to eat a 3 day penalty because of it, I'd be unsubbing faster than you could blink. I seen other people suggesting revoking the rewards from the run until it is completed or until the next day.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

As far as I seen with most online games in the past several years, disconnects are either ignored or treated as a loss and I believe it's because no one knows how to handle such a situation. I mean, if I lost power and had to eat a 3 day penalty because of it, I'd be unsubbing faster than you could blink. I seen other people suggesting revoking the rewards from the run until it is completed or until the next day.

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Now the idea of revoking rewards, I like it. However the main thing I'm worried about is, will it stop trolls. Are trolls trolling for the rewards or are they trolling because they just want to annoy people? And for the latter, is it possible to file a report to GMs if someone is trolling you in a dungeon? Say by constant ninjapulling (even after being asked to stop several times), being rude, etc. And even after kicking them they get back in through party in progress and carry on? Those are just some of the things I am worried about.

And here's the thing, now I've seen another idea put forth. I'm now able to discuss those. We've already seen my idea won't work too well due to too much collateral damage and way too strict, and we now have other possible avenues for handling this. So, this helps open the floor for finding a middle ground, in my opinion. Also, have a like, because that seems like a solid idea. Now, we can work on refinements for these ideas, and find a good solution.

Most people troll because it's funny. Others troll out of protest or frustration, such as tanks or healers getting sick of bad players, so they sabotage them out of spite. It's not something you can just pinpoint to the source and say "ok let's cure the problem". I report trolls in duties all the time and I usually had a GM get back to me for more details in the report.

Also, people can't rejoin the same party if they got kicked out of the duty. That was patched in several months ago, so no worries about trolls rejoining.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Most people troll because it's funny. Others troll out of protest or frustration, such as tanks or healers getting sick of bad players, so they sabotage them out of spite. It's not something you can just pinpoint to the source and say "ok let's cure the problem". I report trolls in duties all the time and I usually had a GM get back to me for more details in the report.

Also, people can't rejoin the same party if they got kicked out of the duty. That was patched in several months ago, so no worries about trolls rejoining.

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Well the bolded part is most certainly music to my ears. However, from what you're telling me, reports are the best way to go about it. In that sense, I see trolls are already being dealt with. The thing is, I notice a good number of people who are like "Kick me" so as to avoid getting the penalty, or AFKing, or disconnecting, all so they get kicked and avoid the penalty. Any ideas on how to combat those? I mean, I do feel like we're really getting somewhere here, but just a couple of things left to iron out.