Is TP interesting as a mechanic?

Yes, TP, that bar alongside HP and MP.

Is it interesting? Could you imagine it being more interesting? How so?
What does it accomplish? Is there something more it could accomplish that it currently does not?
Is there something else you'd rather see done with TP, a new resource in its place, etc.?

In poll form.

1. It's fine. I can't imagine any significant improvements that can be made to it, nor any need to make them.

2. It needs improvements to how TP-users can interact with the mechanic, such as by making different rotations that vary in TP-efficiency each more viable in their own way. This could also come with fixing how TP is gained, smoothing out certain oversights.

3. The mechanic itself should be more interesting, such as by having different effects because of how much TP you currently have, or scaling damage with %TP.

4. It should be scrapped and/or replaced, such as with a new resource, be that something for accelerated movement, or burst, or evasion, or something generateable, are even an individual LB gauge of sorts.

5. Other.


(Yes, this is largely for my own reference, as I've seen few focused thoughts on the subject, but many bits and pieces scattered through tangential subjects.)

Personally, I think the mechanic is fine could be better but i would prefer if SE would spend dev time on bigger isssue eg the tanks balancing (drk tools sapping each other, pld been has tough as the other while focusing on def and war been god tier).

TP doesn't seem important to exist. Just a bar that drains slowly then gets restored by yourself or a party member. I don't really see why sprint need to cost it all either. They gave sprint no TP cost in pvp but not in pve.

At least MP has more impact on gameplay rotations such as controlling how often BLM needs to switch from astral fire to umbral ice and causing DRK to use attacks to maintain their MP.

TP mattered in XI and 1.23, ARR not so much. I'm not sure theres any hurry in changing it but.. Maybe they could re-work the tp system as like a pseudo xi tp build up system? AA build small tp, weaponskills build more tp, combos having a tp build bonus. Then TP consuming finishers that can only be used once you have enough tp and consume all tp. You would be doing the exact same thing you do now just with some instant weaponskills/abilities that you would throw in to consume your built up tp (maybe even the 100-300% bonus if done right). If balancing mages against that was too difficult i don't see any reason other than tradition for why mages can't gain tp from spellcasting.

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Originally Posted by Alaltus

Maybe they could re-work the tp system as like a pseudo xi tp build up system? AA build small tp, weaponskills build more tp, combos having a tp build bonus. Then TP consuming finishers that can only be used once you have enough tp and consume all tp. You would be doing the exact same thing you do now just with some instant weaponskills/abilities that you would throw in to consume your built up tp (maybe even the 100-300% bonus if done right). If balancing mages against that was too difficult i don't see any reason other than tradition for why mages can't gain tp from spellcasting.

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To be clear:
You'd be adding additional oGCDs (all weaponskills are instant, so I'm assuming you meant off-global cooldown, or essentially abilities in every case?) that you can spent TP on?
Or would certain current weaponskills/abilities be capable of consuming TP for bonus effect? (Possibly spells and caster abilities as well, if we decided to make TP universal?)

Set TP costs, or just a minimum TP cost, and then scaling bonuses with the additional TP consumed when using up all of it at once?

Any particular gameplay goals for this system, however vague they may be? I could try to whip up something to see if it's anywhere close to what you're looking for if you'd like a second take.

The thing that people do not realize about tp is that it worked both ways for the player and the mob, at least in XI, which added an extra element of challenge. Since I do not have any experience with 1.0, would I want a tp system like XI in the current game? No. Why? Because, in all honesty, XI was a niche game, so people liking the main stream aspect of this game like either wow or some wow clone which is very present in this game. Personally, I have gotten used to current system and would just prefer that skill speed get a rework to increase resource gain like it actually does in wow. In wow, the more haste you have the faster your resources on certain classes tended to build (or at least before the legion pre-patch, haven't tried all the classes to verify). So its not unreasonable to want skill speed having a soft cap the restores extra tp per tick in combat.

Going back to mob difficulty increased due to XI's tp system. Of course many mobs already had scripted moves; however, overloading the mob with too much dps allowed it to spam extra moves due to the excessive tp gain (this was true for most, but not every single one, some had native regain etc). One interesting fight I recall from wow that kind of replicated this was the Nazgrim fight in Seige of Orgrimmar. Pretty much, the boss was a warrior and had various stances he would switch to throughout the fight. When it would switch to defensive stance, it would allow him to build rage at an accelerated rate, which would allow him to go ape pretty much and spam. However, I suppose it works in that sense since that is how the class's role actually works within the confines of the game and XI's tp system worked to create 'artificial' difficulty because the system worked within the confines of that game. With our current system in XIV, there's not real way to 'easily' create believable difficulty levels outside of patterns. Maybe adding more things you have to silence like ADS in coil (I bring that up and also chimera because people used to wipe on those for the longest time).

I also agree sprint shouldn't be tied to tp. It should have a cool down that doesn't cost anything at the very least, like 1 min.

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

The thing that people do not realize about tp is that it worked both ways for the player and the mob, at least in XI, which added an extra element of challenge. Since I do not have any experience with 1.0.

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Just an FYI, TP existed for monsters also in 1.23. I would imagine in the same way it did for XI. Starving a monster of both damage done and taken could cripple their skill output. I cannot, however, recall if different mobs gained different amounts of TP from different sources, such as some having higher scalings from damage received or damage dealt. There were also originally skills specifically to reduce enemy TP generation (e.g. Lancer's level 8 weaponskill, Moonrise). These were removed when Yoshida implemented the 1.20 system.

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In wow, the more haste you have the faster your resources on certain classes tended to build (or at least before the legion pre-patch, haven't tried all the classes to verify).

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And the WoW paradigm of other spec elements being accelerated to match the flat output increase of Haste continues into the Legion pre-patch. I've tried every DPS spec within the last couple weeks, so unless one's lost that within a very recent build, no change on that front.

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Personally, I have gotten used to current system and would just prefer that skill speed get a rework to increase resource gain... having a soft cap [that] restores extra tp per tick in combat.

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One thing I've been advocating since ARR was switching TP refreshes to a player tick rate of 50 TP per GCD (wherein reduced TP-cost classes like Monk just use normal TP costs) or per base GCD (then affected only by Skill Speed). Bonus TP ticks would similarly be reduced by 20% and be given as a bonus at the receiving player's own TP tick rate. This would mean, if I haven't forgotten something since earlier calculations way back when, that generally there is no TP-starvation disadvantage to a typical single-target rotation, but abilities with a higher TP cost (Fracture, ToD, AoE) do remain a bit more punishing to the TP pool. (Technically, Fracture and ToD's rotational use would make no difference in single-target, since their frequency is limited unless target swapping, and therefore their relative frequency would be reduced by the amount of a given TP tick they are increased.) Inversely, they'd also regain TP more quickly from bonus sources. In other words, if a party of physical DPS, half skill speed-heavy and half of other secondary stats, were to all AoE spam, they'd deal the same modified potency within a TP pool. The speedy DPS would run out first, but if a Bard were to then sing for them after they've all run out, the speedy DPS would also recover first.

I imagine, take or keep the increase to bonus TP received, there'd be a similar effect from bonus TP gained. I just preferred a potential decimal-ly precise rate of receiving TP over getting, say, a 68.36 TP tick.

I don't mean to ignore any of your post; I'm digesting the rest of it as I can. I'm just not sure what I can say in response, especially as would be relevant to TP systems or its alternatives.

Hmm...my take on this has been sort of split for a while. On the one hand, I've always had a problem with the fact every class is tied to TP. It limits what you can do mechanically with resources and resulting gameplay. You can't have anything like DK runes or WoW monk Chi units because the limiting factor is TP regeneration (a rule the devs have set for pretty much every melee job). You run the risk of trivializing TP if you were to lean more towards extra resources while still keeping TP.

On the other hand, removing TP could negatively affect a couple of things. Firstly would be BRDs. As much as I hate that they were given TP/MP regen as a gimmick, BRDs would essentially lose one ability from the change. Jobs like MNK wouldn't be affected by the removal of TP too much, but you'd need to redesign DRG and NIN around some new gameplay mechanic to act as their limiting factor. There's also the matter of cross-classing, though Invigorate no longer being mandatory can be seen as a good or bad thing.

It's a mess, simply put.

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Something I could suggest is creating a distinction between STR jobs and DEX jobs by splitting how TP works for each. PLD, WAR, DRG and DRK could work with TP being a resource you build and consume on stronger abilities. NIN, BRD, MCH (and RDM assuming it enters as a DPS) on the other hand would have TP working similarly to what we now have, as a pacing mechanism. The only issue I see with the former (outside of having to redesign WAR, PLD, DRG and DRK) is that this system clashes with combos unless we make the "main" combos free and anything outside of that cost TP.

I know I didn't mention MNK, and that's because I'd make it the exception and balance it around a brand new resource with even more emphasis on Greased Lightning.

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The thing that people do not realize about tp is that it worked both ways for the player and the mob, at least in XI, which added an extra element of challenge. Since I do not have any experience with 1.0, would I want a tp system like XI in the current game? No. Why? Because, in all honesty, XI was a niche game, so people liking the main stream aspect of this game like either wow or some wow clone which is very present in this game.

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You forgot to mention XI's TP system created a bias towards big damage classes and burst damage in general. That was yet another reason why people didn't like RDM melee or sub A-rank skill weapons: "you're feeding the mob TP".

Sorry to lead only with questions but:

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Originally Posted by Duelle

You forgot to mention XI's TP system created a bias towards big damage classes and burst damage in general. That was yet another reason why people didn't like RDM melee or sub A-rank skill weapons: "you're feeding the mob TP".

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Did all attacks in XI give a (near) equal amount of TP to the mob, regardless of the base or actual damage dealt, or have a set additional enmity per action, etc.? I've done XI raiding, but never where this was a concern, so I honestly have no idea as to the nuances of the XI system. I could have sworn the 1.x TP gains were based on damage, plus maybe a flat amount per hit.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

PLD, WAR, DRG and DRK could work with TP being a resource you build and consume on stronger abilities. NIN, BRD, MCH (and RDM assuming it enters as a DPS) on the other hand would have TP working similarly to what we now have, as a pacing mechanism. The only issue I see with the former (outside of having to redesign WAR, PLD, DRG and DRK) is that this system clashes with combos unless we make the "main" combos free and anything outside of that cost TP.

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Let me check if I'm understanding. In either case, the STR use of TP or the DEX use of TP would function as buildable resource spent to in some way empower your rotation? STR pulls this off by spending it to empower certain abilities, where as DEX spends it to attack more frequently, say by rushing a given GCD (most obvious use being the allowance of a "rapid string" every X buff/debuff windows, or so)?

I'm similarly stumped as to how the automatic consumption of (STR) TP should be done, or if it can even be automatic. Certain normal weaponskills might be a good choice, such as combo-enders or stack moves. Alternatively you could role it up into abilities like Life Surge, exchanging certain CDs for a more bankable means of effect. Not sure.

Moreover, there may be issues of Speed scaling for the STR consumption system, wherein if Speed only accelerates your rotation, it increases the actual but not the relative rate of TP gain and frequency of TP-consuming abilities, whereas Crit and Det would do both. In other words, Crit and Det would have an effect on the consumption and everything else, while Speed would only affect everything else. We already see this largely in how Speed works currently, or normally — seeing as it can only make up for a lack of individual skill enhancement (apart from to DoTs, wherein it is still weaker than Det or Crit) by having a higher output over a filler spam than the other two stats, and inversely drops in value on any class with a large per-execute range — but losing out on a whole new mechanic would be especially disappointing. This could easily be overcome (or even over-buffed) by giving TP gains only on direct damage, reducing the effect DoTs have on TP gain, or by giving a small bonus TP to every damaging skill. And it can be mitigated by just having the whole system give only infrequent usage (TP consumption).

I'm not sure if Speed in the DEX consumption system would cause the bonuses to be worth less or not. Would probably depend on how the costs for the pace adjustments are calculated... Totally up for grabs.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Did all attacks in XI give a (near) equal amount of TP to the mob, regardless of the base or actual damage dealt, or have a set additional enmity per action, etc.? I've done XI raiding, but never where this was a concern, so I honestly have no idea as to the nuances of the XI system. I could have sworn the 1.x TP gains were based on damage, plus maybe a flat amount per hit.

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To my knowledge it was never based on damage received, but rather per hit. The more hits a mob took, the faster it would get enough TP to deal an attack. The reason why you had MNKs using Chi Blast and only Chi Blast for mobs like Fafnir was because it didn't get as much TP for the amount of damage dealt; raids also favored BLMs (read: burst damage) for the same reason.

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I'm similarly stumped as to how the automatic consumption of (STR) TP should be done, or if it can even be automatic. Certain normal weaponskills might be a good choice, such as combo-enders or stack moves. Alternatively you could role it up into abilities like Life Surge, exchanging certain CDs for a more bankable means of effect. Not sure.

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Giving an example via PLD (the job I know best), your "main" combo would be free (Fast Blade => Savage Blade => Rage of Halone), but skills outside of that would have a TP cost (Riot Blade, Goring Blade, Royal Authority). So your main combo would be only limited by your GCD, but your extra skills would have a TP cost. Obviously TP costs for these abilities would have to be relatively higher and you'd probably have to reduce TP total down to 100 for STR jobs. If need be, your main combo could actually generate TP.

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Moreover, there may be issues of Speed scaling for the STR consumption system, wherein if Speed only accelerates your rotation, it increases the actual but not the relative rate of TP gain and frequency of TP-consuming abilities, whereas Crit and Det would do both.

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This is the problem Blizzard ran into with Rage and its numerous iterations, and I will admit we'd probably favor Skill Speed if we were to go with my suggestion since PLD, DRG, DRK and WAR would benefit from being able to generate TP faster and thus use their stronger skills more often.

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I'm not sure if Speed in the DEX consumption system would cause the bonuses to be worth less or not. Would probably depend on how the costs for the pace adjustments are calculated... Totally up for grabs.

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I'd probably tune TP costs to be higher but regeneration to also be faster while keeping the rest of the existing system intact. As for bonuses, you could give jobs like NIN a combo bonus to enhance TP regeneration to further play into this.

Bonus:

MNK and DNC (if it were to be implemented as I envisioned it) would instead go off a momentum system. Using PGL as an example, your TP bar initially goes from 0 to 100 when you get your first stack of Greased Lightning. Once that happens, the TP bar decays over time and subsequent skills restore some TP. Getting a second stack of Greased Lightning increases your TP to 200, with it decaying faster while your TP is between 101 and 200. Getting a third stack of Greased Lightning would increase your TP to max at 300, and it would decay even faster when your TP is between 201 and 300. If you fall below 300 TP then you lose your third stack of Greased Lightning and go back to 2 stacks. If you fall below 200 TP you lose your second stack of Greased Lightning. If you let your TP hit0 you lose your sole stack of Greased Lightning.

The bonuses for staying over 200 TP would be increased speed and damage and access to certain skills (thus making certain skills require a specific level of Greased Lightning). The bonus for staying over 100 TP would be just increased speed.

Note: I got the idea from the difficulty level gauge from the game Godhand. >.>

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Originally Posted by Alaltus

TP mattered in XI and 1.23, ARR not so much. I'm not sure theres any hurry in changing it but.. Maybe they could re-work the tp system as like a pseudo xi tp build up system? AA build small tp, weaponskills build more tp, combos having a tp build bonus. Then TP consuming finishers that can only be used once you have enough tp and consume all tp. You would be doing the exact same thing you do now just with some instant weaponskills/abilities that you would throw in to consume your built up tp (maybe even the 100-300% bonus if done right). If balancing mages against that was too difficult i don't see any reason other than tradition for why mages can't gain tp from spellcasting.

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I much preferred the overall feel of the battle system in 1.23 everything felt more impactful and powerful and TP was actually a thing.

In the current time system to doesn't even get looked at 99% of the time. I only ever notice my to on paladin for example when I've been in a fight for several minutes and royal authority or something stops working. Only then do you remember TP even exists.

As a ninja only time I ever run out of TP is if I'm spamming death blossom.

It was a much better system in 1.23 personally. but thats something i've said since beta1

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Originally Posted by Duelle

[1]Giving an example via PLD (the job I know best), your "main" combo would be free (Fast Blade => Savage Blade => Rage of Halone), but skills outside of that would have a TP cost (Riot Blade, Goring Blade, Royal Authority). So your main combo would be only limited by your GCD, but your extra skills would have a TP cost. Obviously TP costs for these abilities would have to be relatively higher and you'd probably have to reduce TP total down to 100 for STR jobs. If need be, your main combo could actually generate TP.

[2]I'd probably tune TP costs to be higher but regeneration to also be faster while keeping the rest of the existing system intact. As for bonuses, you could give jobs like NIN a combo bonus to enhance TP regeneration to further play into this.

[3]Bonus:

MNK and DNC (if it were to be implemented as I envisioned it) would instead go off a momentum system. Using PGL as an example, your TP bar initially goes from 0 to 100 when you get your first stack of Greased Lightning. Once that happens, the TP bar decays over time and subsequent skills restore some TP. Getting a second stack of Greased Lightning increases your TP to 200, with it decaying faster while your TP is between 101 and 200. Getting a third stack of Greased Lightning would increase your TP to max at 300, and it would decay even faster when your TP is between 201 and 300. If you fall below 300 TP then you lose your third stack of Greased Lightning and go back to 2 stacks. If you fall below 200 TP you lose your second stack of Greased Lightning. If you let your TP hit0 you lose your sole stack of Greased Lightning.

The bonuses for staying over 200 TP would be increased speed and damage and access to certain skills (thus making certain skills require a specific level of Greased Lightning). The bonus for staying over 100 TP would be just increased speed.

Note: I got the idea from the difficulty level gauge from the game Godhand. >.>

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I feel like [1] would have significantly more change to gameplay than people are looking for. In my own opinion, we don't need additional limiters to skill access. Rather, the most obvious alterations to TP, either through systemic changes to the mechanic itself or through very fine changes to TP-consuming classes/jobs, would be anything that introduces new rotations with an idea of TP efficiency, gives greater control over one's TP level, and/or gives reason to try to keep it within a certain range without that itself seeming a chore (there need to be reasons both to blow and sustain).

Take Monk's Purification, in this case without a CD, for instance. If Meditation scaled with the GCD, damage with current %TP, and haste with missing %TP, playing around certain levels would give you certain rotational variance. You'd want to be unleashing your oGCDs and DoT-cleaves at upper levels, but diving lower allows new rotational opportunities as well. If you want to be able to do a perfect Demo-dropkick with no uncovered AAs (Dragon Kick drops right after True Strike, rather than using it up on Demolish), you'd need to start within 20 or so of X TP point. Per-execute range is increased at high TP, decreased at low TP, while oGCD and AA damage outright favor high TP (the latter balanced by a stronger haste scalar than damage's).

Alternatively, should TP be exchanged for a new resource that doesn't mess with the original rotations, but adds some aspect of tactical augmentation, I think that'd see positive feedback. I'm just guessing, though.

[2] If costs and regeneration rates are both increased, there's no real change made, I would think? I'm not sure what this is trying to accomplish.


[3] To be honest, the only model I've really be fond of as an alternate to the current Greased Lightning system would be based on the Legion Shadow-priest, especially when it was still capable of stacking the Haste buffs from accrued Insanity of Voidform burst phases atop each other when played well (and with a bit of luck) even in entry-level gear. That said, that could as easily apply to a Chakra system (releasing the gates) instead.

To start with the Chakra/Opened Gate example: You enter a new level in which attacks generate, say, TP (or "GL"; here tentatively assuming a job-unique replacement for TP), which increases your attack speed but also increases the speed at which TP is drained, and slightly decreases the duration of the haste buffs maintained after losing the state (in addition to losing half, or up to an integer*quantized amount similar to the multiple levels of GL, of all accrued attack speed). This could lead to banking oGCDs to be used as a last resort via damage dealt to keep TP up in order to get the most haste possible, setting up for accelerated rotations to come, etc., all to start ramping out of control when you hit that switch. Alternatively, we could make it so you control the gates yourself, rather than it scaling automatically. Do you have the resources to sustain the sixth gate without burning out or burning up? Then fifth Chakra click it is (first click is second gate). The sad thing is that this system would make current TP a very real and almost even an attractive concern.

I'm still working on how I'd like to see GL work, but it'd probably just be a blend of that and what you've suggested, which are rather close in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

To be clear:
You'd be adding additional oGCDs (all weaponskills are instant, so I'm assuming you meant off-global cooldown, or essentially abilities in every case?) that you can spent TP on?
Or would certain current weaponskills/abilities be capable of consuming TP for bonus effect? (Possibly spells and caster abilities as well, if we decided to make TP universal?)

Set TP costs, or just a minimum TP cost, and then scaling bonuses with the additional TP consumed when using up all of it at once?

Any particular gameplay goals for this system, however vague they may be? I could try to whip up something to see if it's anywhere close to what you're looking for if you'd like a second take.

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Off-global cool down actions yes much like the current Limit Breaks but personal to you. The limiting factor for drg or for all aoes could be that aoes generate much less TP maybe. You don't generate tp per mob you hit but for each action you make that connects.

In XI 1000 TP was 100% and the minimum requirement to perform a weapon skill; weapon skills used all TP no matter how much you had. TP went up to 3000, saving beyond 1000 increased the modifier. Some weapon skills were better at 300% than others like Spirits Within. Weapon skills also skill chained which were a bit like battle regimens; did a bit of extra damage and left an opening for a mage to use a corresponding elemental spell for increased macc/damage.

If the mob gained TP in the same way you can do what many are asking for; break scripted boss fights. Trash are gonna die before they get enough TP but bosses won't and it will add an element of unpredictability that SE already has experience with handling. The bosses will still mostly be scripted but you will also have to be ready for which ever TP action the boss decides to use at random.

"We had the battle down, but then Bayohne started spamming super bad breath!"

Only complaint is that sprint costs tp while only 2/3 the jobs use it. Just make the pvp change global, make sprint a cooldown everyone has, but doesn't cost anything.

Short answer: No.

Long answer:

It doesn't add anything to the gameplay as a whole, it doesn't even add an illusion of complexity. To the classes that can use Invigorate, I can macro it to one of my more commonly used abilities and never even notice running out of TP and to the ones that can run out of TP (pld comes to mind) they actually lowered TP costs so the classes have more longevity or added certain cooldowns (equilibrium and the TP reduction on Blood Weapon) to help or in places where you absolutely need Sprint (PVP) they actually removed the TP cost of Sprint. At this point TP could be removed entirely and absolutely nothing of value would be lost, just make Sprint a normal button with a cooldown or do what Wildstar does and add a Sprint meter so it's never "wasted."

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And before any of the MP using classes complain, having melee classes limited by the GCD is perfectly fine and it works in plenty of other MMO's, the melee classes don't need a resource in this game. At this point I even argue that because BLM and SMN have ways to restore their MP (I mean BLM is based entirely on emptying and restoring MP) the only classes that needs to be able to run out of MP are healers as having healers with infinite resources is not good game design. If everyone is doing what they're supposed to, I don't even see healers run out of MP either or even run the risk of it. I'd go a step further and say that if they were to get rid of MP and TP entirely, no one but BLM's would notice a difference in gameplay. The resource system is really messed up as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Alaltus

If the mob gained TP in the same way you can do what many are asking for; break scripted boss fights. Trash are gonna die before they get enough TP but bosses won't and it will add an element of unpredictability that SE already has experience with handling. The bosses will still mostly be scripted but you will also have to be ready for which ever TP action the boss decides to use at random.

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I'm not sure why TP and random actions would necessarily be related though? Even without a TP mechanic, whereupon a boss spends its 1000+ TP on any of random abilities, you can have a set of abilities, each with different cooldowns shared with the others on activation, and each time the boss cools down he choose another at random. And if bosses could de-pace (and therefore to a sense de-script) their actions, you'd run into severe issues with the current tank CD model. Why should a boss bother attacking normally with its skills if it could just save up for a whole minute, and then hit you so hard that you need HG/HG/LD to possibly survive? In either case it's dependent on the enemy's AI to consider whether or not it should bank its resource. That AI would be only thing breaking scripting directly, but without a sense of internal rotations there's nothing for the boss to do but run the tank's day by, say, using only burst when it pops -flat damage or using only machine-gun attacks when it pops 'for X hits' mitigation, etc. Which certainly wouldn't provide interesting gameplay. The primary difference I can see from using a TP system is that a boss can then accelerate output based on damage dealt. In other words, the more you fail to mitigate, the worse it gets. That can be especially punishing for certain strats and compositions. I wouldn't mind seeing that on some fights or on some mob types, and likely therein taken to the extreme because that can be really flavorful, and create some compositions you don't see elsewhere (like a half tank party being not at all a joke) but it's not a system I'd personally like to see made universal (much like I wouldn't want to see such strange comps necessarily replace the standard 2/2/4 in but a couple select fights).

To review and summarize, AI is the core component, not the backing system or weights, which can be adjusted per mob. You can have different mob personality types that can generate any combination of adjusted TP (or none) and/or enmity from various sources and conditions. You can have a set rotation, an randomized rotation on a single shared cooldown, use two tiers of shared cooldown, or more. You can have combo systems. You can have weights of estimated actual damage vs. base potency that may cause a boss to consider whether its wants to continue its established combo, which the tank has set matching mitigation against, or abandon it and its bonus for something that's not being mitigated against. They could take additional enmity from healing done, mitigation done, damage done, or even... damage taken (fixating on something they've wounded, more and more - such that you'd need to sacrifice some amount of mitigation > health to secure future mitigation when it really matters), or even upon "thwarted" actions (its AI decided it should kill X player, and that healing or that covering mitigation prevented it... Now I really hate that guy.) Enmity might be abandoned entirely at points for a tactical decision. It can check for weakened targets every so often or under certain conditions, or every N enmity or TP gained. So on and so forth. And that's not even getting to positioning, attacking vs. retreating, coverage, suppression, and so forth. It doesn't have to feel like you're hitting striking dummies who have periodic attacks and stances. It can feel like you're playing a chess setting one too high for you (at least until you learn to bait it).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'm not sure why TP and random actions would necessarily be related though?...

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No your right they wouldn't necessarily be. In XI i think some moves were random, some health based, some phase based, some were a mix of all of those. Depended alot on the boss/monster in question.

TP isn't optimal, but it works the way it is; and it'd be potentially confusing to existing players to introduce new resources for individual classes. Not to mention a headache for the devs to alter entire class trees around generating/consuming a new resource.

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Originally Posted by DarthVella

TP isn't optimal, but it works the way it is; and it'd be potentially confusing to existing players to introduce new resources for individual classes. Not to mention a headache for the devs to alter entire class trees around generating/consuming a new resource.

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Not that confusing honestly, Blizzard did that as a means of making some of the easier classes a bit more interesting even though they had been without them for years and in my opinion it worked. It added some new combat options and they added cooldowns later on to work with those resources. So I adamantly disagree that adding some new resources systems would be too confusing, I think the players will adapt and get better and see that it's better in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

Not that confusing honestly, Blizzard did that as a means of making some of the easier classes a bit more interesting even though they had been without them for years and in my opinion it worked. It added some new combat options and they added cooldowns later on to work with those resources. So I adamantly disagree that adding some new resources systems would be too confusing, I think the players will adapt and get better and see that it's better in the long run.

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Though in all fairness they did basically standardize the most unique resource systems. Runes is now fragmented Energy, cooling two at a time. Focus is slower-regenerating Energy. Shards are basically Chi. Maelstrom is basically Rage, but generated from most skills (and AA procs) and spent on others, instead of being generated only through AAs and spent on most skills. Sorry, ignore that. #AngryWoWVet

(Thinking aloud) I feel like my primary concern is whether or not there's much of anything to be gained from the independent resource systems. Pugilist/Monk makes a lot of sense as using one, to me. But Dragoon? You could use the TP bar instead of the buff duration to track BotD, but to what end, and what before that? BotD management isn't a thing until 60... Would it become the Bloodletter / Rain of Death resource for Bard? Moving it into a resource would reduce a lot of the risk and tick-tracking of the original system, especially as it applies to WM.

A lot of the most obvious uses just don't seem especially necessary or interesting, which means that there'd have to first be significant consideration, even without that new resource at first, as to how the classes'/jobs' gameplay could be improved. At which point, is that tangential, or a necessary sidestep to get back on course after our present obstacle?

I think the idea of individual resources has a lot of merit, but it's got a lot of design dependencies.

As such, one other idea I'd like to go over is the idea of a new resource across all classes and jobs that could be used in a variety of ways. For instance, what if it's your limiter for something like... skill-chain-esque actions, allowing additional, cooperatation/sequence-focused damage that should be made further tactical in that it must be used sparingly? (Of course, should that then be an individual or party-shared resource, and if the latter, how does it differ from the LB gauge? Ugh.) Or, you could use it to "Flurry", duplicating your last attack at reduced effect (damage, percentage, and/or duration) as an oGCD. Or you could use it to increase critical strike chance, haste, what have you, but [probably] always just one of those functions. That function might be according to class, or even according to one's gear, but it's a familiar resource regardless. Just another possibility.

While I find some of Duelle's ideas interesting, I honestly don't see any need to change anything about the way TP work.
It works just fine, it gets the job done, isn't too invasive on the gameplay (like, for example, the stamina bar in early 1.x was) but still works as a limiting factor.

I just don't see any reason to spend resources and development time on a system that isn't broken (and, quite possibly, actually DO break it in the process) :confused:

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

TP doesn't seem important to exist. Just a bar that drains slowly then gets restored by yourself or a party member. I don't really see why sprint need to cost it all either. They gave sprint no TP cost in pvp but not in pve.

At least MP has more impact on gameplay rotations such as controlling how often BLM needs to switch from astral fire to umbral ice and causing DRK to use attacks to maintain their MP.

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I think, gameplay which involve MP are more interesting because it's not really static as gameplay TP and there are more various rotations. Furthermore, it's maybe me, but the rotation for each job related to mana are different from others in the way of thinking.

If SE can do changes in the overall gameplay, it should be the rework of TP.
For me, like Piety --> MP, TP need to be dependent of a secondary stat : Bravery --> TP.
It mean, we could have more than 1000 TP.
In fact, Tank have Parry, Healer have Piety, so Dps will have Bravery.
In that case, their gameplay should change drastically.

For me, Sprint should cost 500 TP and Healer should have skills which cost TP.
Tank would keep the same system (just need to rework Parry).
DPS would have a new type of rotation or new skills which would cost a huge amount of TP.

And in the end, bye bye Accuracy.

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

And in the end, bye bye Accuracy.

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We need more stats, not less. You might not like dealing with acc, but removing it at this point would be bad. And nobody would want bravery as a stat as you describe it. Would be the same reason tanks never cared about vit accessories before the change; a higher max doesn't do much when most of what you use in a long fight comes from recovery, not your starting reserves. Except in this case it'd be worse, nothing is going to one-shot your tp, unless they also nerfed invigorate badly you wouldn't need a higher tp base.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I feel like [1] would have significantly more change to gameplay than people are looking for.

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This is understandable. I've always been a fan of resources being a way to differentiate classes from one another, and ideally I would like PLD, DRK, WAR and DRG to have their own unique takes on STR TP instead of being held to a universal system.

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[2] If costs and regeneration rates are both increased, there's no real change made, I would think? I'm not sure what this is trying to accomplish.

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The intent with my suggestion is to have DEX TP work similar to how Energy works in WoW. As you know, it's a resource that is spent quickly but regenerates quickly to reward the player learning how to pace themselves. Admittedly this is the intent behind the current iteration of TP, but it hasn't worked out due to several factors.

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[3] To be honest, the only model I've really be fond of as an alternate to the current Greased Lightning system would be based on the Legion Shadow-priest, especially when it was still capable of stacking the Haste buffs from accrued Insanity of Voidform burst phases atop each other when played well (and with a bit of luck) even in entry-level gear. That said, that could as easily apply to a Chakra system (releasing the gates) instead.

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What I was aiming for was for MNK building up momentum and then focus on keeping that momentum. It wouldn't be that different from what they currently have, except that instead of Greased Lightning dropping all three stacks once the timer hits 0, you just lose stacks over time.

Non-sequitur:

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Chakra

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Chakra as a whole is flawed and something I'd love to see scrapped and redesigned. The main flaws are that a) fifth chakra is the only one that matters and b) you have to spam a button to attain fifth chakra. I equate it to character dialogue that breaks the flow of gameplay in a platformer/action game. The system breaks the flow of gameplay for MNK.

Real-life Chakras all mean different things and have different properties. The 7th/final Chakra is not the only the only one that matters like in-game, and I think a MNK should have skills determined by what Chakra they've activated.

I don't understand why we have 2 mana bars. TP seems pointless.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

[a] This is understandable. I've always been a fan of resources being a way to differentiate classes from one another, and ideally I would like PLD, DRK, WAR and DRG to have their own unique takes on STR TP instead of being held to a universal system.
[b] The intent with my suggestion is to have DEX TP work similar to how Energy works in WoW. As you know, it's a resource that is spent quickly but regenerates quickly to reward the player learning how to pace themselves. Admittedly this is the intent behind the current iteration of TP, but it hasn't worked out due to several factors.
[c] What I was aiming for was for MNK building up momentum and then focus on keeping that momentum. It wouldn't be that different from what they currently have, except that instead of Greased Lightning dropping all three stacks once the timer hits 0, you just lose stacks over time.

Non-sequitur:

Chakra as a whole is flawed and something I'd love to see scrapped and redesigned. The main flaws are that a) fifth chakra is the only one that matters and b) you have to spam a button to attain fifth chakra. I equate it to character dialogue that breaks the flow of gameplay in a platformer/action game. The system breaks the flow of gameplay for MNK.

Real-life Chakras all mean different things and have different properties. The 7th/final Chakra is not the only the only one that matters like in-game, and I think a MNK should have skills determined by what Chakra they've activated.

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[a] I get that too. I just want that resource system to work atop what we have now, rather than being a limiter for it, if that makes sense. If TP is going to prevent you from being able to use the rotations you know and maybe even enjoy, that seems unnecessarily problematic to me, especially if it's not almost entirely sure to produce a preferable result.

[b] Makes sense. I just wonder at that point how it'd be any different than the original stamina bar, except that the stamina bar at least toyed (for all of one beta build) with the idea of regeneration speeds decreasing with progress/fill, and damage dealt via TP-spending moves increasing with fill, so you had a haste vs. damage mechanic. If it were like stacking a skill speed resource to be used when you want, and otherwise rotations go on as normal, then it feels like augmentation rather than a limiter.

(I'm faintly reminded of the fatigue system, where you could potentially reach half or more level max level classes (if not for the obvious leve issues those days after skill-farming was removed) faster than when the system was replaced with bonus exp. Bonus exp felt faster, but unless you were disinterested in leveling more than a couple classes, that wasn't necessarily true; it just depends on the actual exp rates more than the system. Nonetheless, it was that feeling that condemned the first and praised the latter, more so even than people specifically wanting to focus on a single class.)

My only other potential issue here, and this is a stretch, is that an energy bar is basically a redundancy (with the simple GCD) unless it creates additional gameplay components as a result. Things like holding onto a GCD, and its variable energy costs, while waiting for a DoT to reach the brink of falling off (or the pandemic / roll-over) are things that require a energy system that ensures that the holding time won't go to waste. But at the same time, without a sense of compromise between the two system, it adds no more complexity than the GCD system alone does, especially once you attach issues like combos (wherein to take advantage of the filler space before refreshing a DoT, you might have to be even later in refreshing it) or preferred abilities and syncs (such that the DoT is worth waiting a half GCD, or to clip an oGCD into the GCD prior, to perfect). As long as energy always binds you, you will always wait that X duration remainder for the debuff's perfect refresh. There's no decision.

[c] (Non-sequitor) [RANT] Yeah, it's hard for me to really even envision where they were going with the Chakra system. Meditation's failure to scale with the GCD, even after having its recast reduced, means it would only be viable in combat if Tornado Kick and Forgotten Chakra were each buffed, at which point it would be usable after Tornado Kick used at the tail of your CD-window after refreshing all DoTs and unloading all oGCDs so that the amount time spent prepping damage in terms of a fifth each of a Forbidden Chakra would be a smaller portion of the GCD (1.4s of 2.38s or so, instead of 2.15 or less). And even then, it'd probably be more of a TP-efficiency alternative than the optimal choice... Purification being attached to that system would seem to make sense, except that it has a long cooldown, meaning that you can't use it for extended AoE any more than one would a Form Shift spam between Twin Snakes (or DK-TS-RB only if focusing a single target with all AAs). I get that they didn't want us to have unlimited TP by Purifying between every pull while our Bards are forced to Swiftsong instead of restore their own TP and Machinists only get mild contribution from tossing out and promoting their Rooks every 5s or 2 bonus ticks as we run, but it makes the ability feel more like a capacity change than any sort of job ability. During downtime, once per Invigorate period, you get 67% more Invigorate...

When I first heard about the Chakra system coming into play, I imagined it either be gradual gates of release or a series of gameplay-affecting mechanical additions, each adding a higher priority mechanic that effectively or entirely replaces the last. Instead its a stack charge system used only for an opening oGCD and then more Invigorate or another opening oGCD during each encounter break thereafter.

But hey, I still dislike that Form Shift doesn't even have any uptime single target uses. It has AoE TP efficiency implications as long as you absolutely would bottom out and clear the AoE pack more slowly without it (rarely the case). It has downtime uses, for returning to Coeurl or Coeurl minus whatever GCDs' worth of duration of GL remains and you'd rather open with something else. But never uptime single target.

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

And in the end, bye bye Accuracy.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

We need more stats, not less. You might not like dealing with acc, but removing it at this point would be bad. And nobody would want bravery as a stat as you describe it. Would be the same reason tanks never cared about vit accessories before the change; a higher max doesn't do much when most of what you use in a long fight comes from recovery, not your starting reserves. Except in this case it'd be worse, nothing is going to one-shot your tp, unless they also nerfed invigorate badly you wouldn't need a higher tp base.

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Just my own two cents on accuracy:
*My apologies if I use melee and physical interchangeably here. I always mean physical, including ranged dps, as are all bound to higher accuracy requirements than casters and healers.

As long as a stat brings in a gearing decision that allows you (and/or your raid) to play in a new way, it can be interesting. Accuracy is definitionally one of those stats... for physical* DPS. The idea that you can stack with the MT or defend yourself against a locked-on add without a punishing chance to drop your combos, short your key skills, etc., is individually pretty neat. What isn't interesting in my opinion is that of the some 380 bonus accuracy you'd need for a raid fight to stack there or defend yourself at full hit chance, only some 20 of that stat actually made that difference. The rest was obligatory. At that point, it does nothing more than curtail output growth when the numbers themselves could have done that anyways. Final result: where possible you have two sets for the same ilvl, one casual (low-acc) and one raider (raid-acc). The closest things to advantages to come out of all this is that people may have to spend time (to many an annoyance) trying to keep their accuracy as close as possible to the raid requirements while making space for potential drops and a very, very weak form of horizontal progression. (And that's not even going into the issue wherein casters only needing back-capping (rather than flank-capping) gives them a small, but in those situations noticeable enough increase to their secondary stat pool. Whereas melee would always be at a large DPS loss going from flank-capped to back-cap, and a noticeable loss going from front-capped to flank-capped when mechanics call for a frontal cap, they also take no advantage from sticking with only a back-cap and taking other secondary stats instead relative to a caster.)

My personal preferences would be to scrap those latter two. Accuracy requirements should only increase in so far as the damage they save, in terms of the damage produceable by other secondary stats. Roughly. That means that, for starters, as long as we stick with the idea that melee dps should never be tanking anyways and therefore have no regular use for frontal-capping, that the transition from back cap to flank cap should be larger than for flank to front. Tanks can get that bonus amount for free with their tank stances as before, and spend into that extra Accuracy to ensure accuracy in OT stances as well.

But the real issue is everything leading up to back-cap. As it stands, the gameplay-producing range of Accuracy quickly falls under 10% of the total Accuracy expenditure. In my opinion, at least 40% of Accuracy expenditure should be its effective range, regardless of depth into an expansion. As the Accuracy floor increases, so too should the flank and frontal steps, in direct proportion. I imagine that this would be done by first reducing the total amount you have to spend on accuracy by about 50%. Next, of the remaining amount, only ~60% is needed to reach back-cap. ~86% reaches flank cap. 100% reaches frontal cap. In this way, Accuracy should be a real decision, potentially, against other stats within the confines of a given encounter. Casters now use the flank-cap instead of the back-cap, removing their tiny but universal bonus

As for TP starvation and the Bravery (TP pool-enlarging stat) idea:

There's simply very little reason to TP starve in recent raid design unless using a high Skill Speed build. Ideally, I'd like to remove that uneven disadvantage, even. And with the recent Bard buffs such that they only lose about 10% DPS depending on CD lineup (MCHs about 13%, iirc) to keep a raid going infinitely (unless, again, high Skill Speed), there's no real thought involved in the solutions. That said, extending the TP pool via a stat like Bravery, or even a stat granting greater TP restoration directly (assuming the TP tick might increase as the pool size increases, at the same 6% of max TP per 3 seconds instead of just a flat 60 TP per 3s, though this would give some really funky TP values), all this would really do is create a new stat similar to accuracy, but without the mathematical advantage to compel its use. A fight lasting X minutes of uptime would demand X Bravery. Any shorter, and that Bravery is wasted. And at a mere 10% of the Bard's dps for a mere part of the fight, you could have avoided that stat entirely (much like using Rain of Death to avoid 10% of the accuracy requirement). Worse yet, this becomes a stat that, atop Accuracy, only physical dps have to deal with, while BLMs and SMNs have no absolute need for Piety. It either becomes a gearing cluster**** for all physical dps, or just a dead stat.

Please don't feel like I'm trying to put down anyone's ideas. I very much appreciate them. I'm just trying to extend the ideas to a envisioned result, as best I can, as to provide useful feedback for your further consideration.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

[a] I get that too. I just want that resource system to work atop what we have now, rather than being a limiter for it, if that makes sense. If TP is going to prevent you from being able to use the rotations you know and maybe even enjoy, that seems unnecessarily problematic to me, especially if it's not almost entirely sure to produce a preferable result.

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I personally don't think it's possible to do anything to TP without major changes to either gameplay or ability structure. The system is literally entrenched between how TP currently works along with the combo system. If you increase ability costs you thus make BRDs and MCHs that much more desired. If you decrease ability costs you further trivialize TP as a resource. You can't really "empower" moves via TP because you then have to design two sets of abilities and balance them.

Moving to my STR TP suggestion, the idea behind locking abilities behind TP does several things. For one it gives the "baseline" rotations additional weight in the combat model. Secondly it would justify making certain TP-consuming abilities stronger and possibly allow for more variety in abilities (specially in the case of tanks; WAR in particular could get defensive abilities that consume TP). Thirdly it leads to a sort of stagger in strict rotations (DRG comes to mind), which means memorizing a rotation written on a piece of paper is no longer the way best way to play. Lastly, it gets rid of certain superfluous systems while keeping certain concepts intact.

PLD: An idea here would be causing Sheltron to cost TP while entirely removing its cooldown. If you want to ease the burden this places on damage dealing abilities, you could make the block from Sheltron partially refund the TP spent. You could also justify giving PLD more than just Circle of Scorn for AoE with TP cost as a limiting factor.

WAR: Entirely remove Wrath/Abandon and make abilities like Inner Beast cost a good chunk of TP. Additional abilities along this theme that benefit WAR defensively. You could tie a Wrath-like theme to the job by causing these abilities to enrage/infuriate the WAR, benefiting the WAR (placeholder idea for this is that certain abilities' true potential doesn't unlock unless the WAR is enraged/infuriated) and encouraging the WAR to remain enraged/infuriated as part of its gameplay.

DRK: Tying Souleater to TP is a no-brainer, and would justify making it stronger than it currently is. You could also add reactive abilities that consume TP. Not to mention that you could remove Reprisal's cooldown and have it cost a lot of TP.

DRG: Invigorate could be turned into a cooldown that reduces TP cost of non-"main" combo attacks. Blood of the Dragon could be turned into a DPS cooldown that would consume your full TP bar but increases damage dealt and removes TP cost from all skills for a set duration while still giving you access to Wheeling Thrust/Fang & Claw.

These are just stuff off the top of my head. I'd probably have to do a full design write-up to flesh it out and balance it.

TP is only part of a whole mechanic.
Just as MP, Stacks of X, DoTs, Buffs, Debuffs, etc.

But currently, I feel it's not being fully utilized to its fullest potential.

Lets look at BLM, it uses MP differently.

Essentially its either low MP (blizzard), or high MP (fire)
Similar can be done with TP, a class that alternates its playstyle based on raising the TP bar (low dmg) and draining it with burst dmg.

But copying BLM completely would be a waste, so we'd need a class that can do thinsg BLm cant do.

Such as instant attacks, and weaving in off the GCD attacks. (Most likely a melee)

It would be the 1st melee that doesnt use a 1, 2, 3 combo of some sort.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I personally don't think it's possible to do anything to TP without major changes to either gameplay or ability structure. The system is literally entrenched between how TP currently works along with the combo system. If you increase ability costs you thus make BRDs and MCHs that much more desired. If you decrease ability costs you further trivialize TP as a resource. You can't really "empower" moves via TP because you then have to design two sets of abilities and balance them.

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In the end it comes down to how soon you want a BRD or MCH, or anyone else supplying X resource, to be able to affect the party (with the support that resource gives). Foe Requiem and Hypercharge can work instantly. Ballad, Paeon, and Promoted turrets only have an effect if you would otherwise exhaust their respective resources. At which point the question becomes, do we want utilities and mechanics that have importance only after a given length of uptime?

As long as TP is a generated resource, it has no effect on immediate burst. It would be the damage-dynamic equivalent of Wildfire or, at quickest, Sidewinder. There's setup (resource build), and then you get to utilize additional mechanics that average into your theoretical maximum dps. That wouldn't necessarily create two designs for each ability, nor would it necessarily require individual balancing. It may require overall balancing, both because you've removed an exhaustion mechanic and added to average dps, but that component itself needs only to supply a level of damage that doesn't overemphasize TP bonuses from NIN, BRD, AST, and MCH.

The spenders for such could be anything like 'Multistrike' on command, duplicating a previous attack on the oGCD for % effect at TP cost (cost scaling with effect deployed), or baked into class mechanics themselves (Life Surge, Power Surge, Internal Release, Straighter Shot, and so forth). All that really matters is the final overall balance, and that gameplay is somehow improved as a result in the minds of most players. Beyond that it's just a matter of how much additional control or potential burst you want (as in the Multistrike example), and whether you want to introduce a shared limiter between certain toolkit skills (as in the latter example), where if either, or their combination, isn't gameplay compelling, the resource is pointless.

To be honest, the only role for which I could see TP as becoming truly troublesome to balance is the tanks, especially if there are ever both offensive and defensive TP spenders. Granted, that's something I'd kind of really like to see, but I can easily imagine why others would not, and how that additional control atop our already prominent dual tank/dps stance options might seem a bit much.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Moving to my STR TP suggestion, the idea behind locking abilities behind TP does several things. For one it gives the "baseline" rotations additional weight in the combat model. Secondly it would justify making certain TP-consuming abilities stronger and possibly allow for more variety in abilities (specially in the case of tanks; WAR in particular could get defensive abilities that consume TP). Thirdly it leads to a sort of stagger in strict rotations (DRG comes to mind), which means memorizing a rotation written on a piece of paper is no longer the way best way to play. Lastly, it gets rid of certain superfluous systems while keeping certain concepts intact.

These are just stuff off the top of my head. I'd probably have to do a full design write-up to flesh it out and balance it.

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I might need the full write-up, sorry. Even with the Examples, apart from Shelltron and Warror examples, I'm having trouble visualizing what you're really going for.

The main reason I see players seeing TP as "boring" is due to the fact that all TP based classes only have 1 or 2 TP consuming rotations: a low TP consumption single target rotation (all non casters/healers have one) and possibly a high TP consumption AoE rotation (PLD and DRK uses MP instead for their AoE rotations). TP management is currently only important when a single target fight lasts so long that the low TP single target rotation or the amount of AoE attacks performed to kill all targets has consumed most of the character's TP.

The addition of high TP cost high single target damage actions/combos would likely cause players to find TP management a bit more interesting.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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We've had the discussion in a few threads, I know you're all about adding more thoughtful choices to the game to make it more interesting. To be completely honest though, I have no idea what COULD work as an alternate resource system if we absolutely MUST have one for all the classes. I stand by my prior assertion however, that the resource system as a whole is a complete mess since there isn't a whole lot of depth as far as resource management goes. I've said in my posts as well, that I've always felt if something isn't adding complexity or anything interesting, I'd rather just see it scrapped. Some kind of resource system that actually requires some attention paid to it with some kind of payoff at the end (like say a really powerful offensive or defensive cooldown) is something I can get behind. Or something class dependent.

Mnk for example, I think they don't need TP as a resource system, I think the whole ramp up they have is sufficient with the increased damage and rolling thunder stacks the reward for managing your buttons correctly.

I feel two resources is superfluous. The GCD can have the resources built into it or the TP system can remove the GCD and have a global resource matter more.

Look at Dark Souls combat. There is no GCD but you don't see endless button spamming there due to punishing repercussions and sizeable resource cost. Where as here, you still have button spamming and we have two or more resources. The whole point of a resource in my book should make you choose when to use key skills versus always or constantly use key skills in an on rails script.

I am not saying stamina should come back to XIV but TP and MP functions the same as stamina.

• If the meta is use skills and use them often regardless of enemy, then TP/MP/Stamina cannot have huge cost or they can't be used often.
• If the meta is use skills in response to each situation depending on the enemy, then TP/MP/Stamina could and should have high cost.

You can't alter a global class resource so much other than cost, regen, or potency.

You can alter a global cooldown class resource in many other ways.

Redundancy.

I prefer high cost and skilled cast but some might prefer GCD. Imo multiple resources is superfluous and makes combat more about the math and less about how/when I am casting something.

Now if there were class specific resources, that played with different mechanics besides cost, regen, or potency. Maybe that would be more interesting in having two resource limiters, GCD and <insertclassspecificresource>.

Final note: Anything interesting that SE implements that makes each class play differently from another has the chance that the difference is skewed one way to make a class superior to another. It would be no different than if jobs were more than flavors of each other, you get the flavor of the month mantra.

TP is currently a weak system and adds nothing to the game other than capping potential DPS.

I think that TP should start at 0, auto-attacks should be removed, many weaponskills should be called "basic attacks" and should be used as they are now but instead they generate TP, which can be unleashed like a personal "limit break" that deals heavy damage and/or provides benefits to the party in some way (these would also be on the Global Cooldown). BLM would need an overhaul imo to something more like 1.23, but instead many of their spells would grant them TP which could be used to help them regenerate their MP.

If it was up to me, I'd also try to make a skillchain system similar to FFXI by using them in sequence with other party members, except not as complicated. Tanks and healers need not have skills that interact with it though.

4, it should be revamped it's useless


TP has virtually zero purpose right now. It just prevents melee job to spam aoe and... that's it.
There's no way you can run out of TP by doing single target in a bosss fight and there shouldn't be a way either.

Imo, any bar that has no purpose for the said job should be removed or replaced with something new.

While I don't necerly like to compare FF14 to WoW, something very nice WOW did was removing the useless bar for something that fits the job mechanic. If the bar couldn't be removed than spell cast are tunned down so low that the bar is just here for the sake of being here.
For instance, the TP bar could be replaced by a rage bar for the Warrior. Rage does matter, your TP don't.
Same for the Eatherflux from both Scholar and Summoner.
Something like that (the shadowball would be eatherflux) would make more sens
Other example, the moonkin Sun and Moon bar going back and forth was a great addition.
As a Astromancer, I'd rather have my TP bar replaced by icons showing which card I picked, kept and Royalised than having to look at my buff bar. Ofc we're just moving the information. But it makes more sens, instead of having a useless TP bar I have a bar with my cards stuff.

Also, not only should they remove the TP bar but it should actually be replaced with proper new ressource and interesting mechanic for everyone. Same for the mana for caster dps. The only DPS having to take a good care of its mana is the Blackmage, the bar is useless to every other DPS and tank beside, maybe, Paladin. (but the way he uses mana is so dull that it could be easily revamped)

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

We've had the discussion in a few threads, I know you're all about adding more thoughtful choices to the game to make it more interesting. To be completely honest though, I have no idea what COULD work as an alternate resource system if we absolutely MUST have one for all the classes. I stand by my prior assertion however, that the resource system as a whole is a complete mess since there isn't a whole lot of depth as far as resource management goes. I've said in my posts as well, that I've always felt if something isn't adding complexity or anything interesting, I'd rather just see it scrapped. Some kind of resource system that actually requires some attention paid to it with some kind of payoff at the end (like say a really powerful offensive or defensive cooldown) is something I can get behind. Or something class dependent.

Mnk for example, I think they don't need TP as a resource system, I think the whole ramp up they have is sufficient with the increased damage and rolling thunder stacks the reward for managing your buttons correctly.

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Agreed, on the whole. Even after a lot of thought on the matter, and desperately wanting to make something more thoughtful out of it, I can't really come up with a system that can sufficiently replace TP without severely changing job gameplay (albeit possibly for the better), but with few exceptions I've only come to be less hesitant about removing altogether. (See ending note.)

Just taking Monk for an example, I feel like either of two fairly obvious general paths would work well:

1. Up potential dps slightly, but require (improved) in-combat Meditation for Purification-based TP restoration. Bring up some other options that would otherwise share that purpose to keep them balanced (Tornado Kick and The Forbidden Chakra).

OPTIONAL: Perhaps allow TP-dependant mechanics, such as increased passive output at higher TP levels, balanced against abilities that continuous attacks provide better ramp-up and culminating damage for.

2. Scrap TP. Revise Fracture (directly or indirectly), Impulse Drive (indirectly), and Purification (directly), so that the last has interesting usage and both Fracture and Impulse Drive are rotationally/situationally viable stanceless fillers.

That said, (2) seems the obvious solution only when taking AoE out of the equation. Without the TP limitation it is otherwise too powerful in most cases. However, at least in dungeoning and the open world, this issue could be mitigated with what many people have already been asking for — stronger enemies, and stronger and more applicable CC options. Survival and lost time (spent on CC, kiting, and extra healing) becomes the limiting factor for AoEs, rather than TP and MP (still a bit of a limiter, especially for healers like AST and WHM).

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Edit: Well crap, back to thinking about how every Job might well be able to use a third resource, and is a large part of what seperates them from their source class, while otherwise only HP and MP remain (and MP usage increased across non-primary users). But, I doubt all future jobs could fit that system as well, and I don't want to place that restriction on them. Spirit (a resource for Links, similar to Skill-chains / Magic Bursts) is also a tasty alternative... /zero progress

TP could be used in different ways, like someone said it is mainly there to limit or manage AoE damage while single targets doesn't really get hurt by it. While this is fine, TP management could be adjusted at later levels.

For example, levels 1 - 30 shouldn't have any issues with TP management, by then you should be used to how TP works / MP works. (Should!) After that, at 30 introduce an optional mechanic for each job that consumes TP in a unique way. Lets say at 30, take the 3 tank jobs. They get an ability that allows them to buff the party temporarily but costs TP instead of MP.

WAR - AoE bloodbath, less potency but allows those in range who do damage to recover some HP.
PLD - Something similar to Shield wall, but lesser in terms of %
DRK - Something that sacrifices HP / MP / TP in order to deal extra damage on the next skill used by party members. Or maybe something along the lines of En-dark, that acts like a self shadow-wall = to the amount of damage done over the period of time but has a cap.

None of these are perfect, but in a situation like this if you use WAR bloodbath AoE in say, AV? Could help with the poison. DRK's could be higher potency but takes out some HP. While in that scenario people would be afraid to use it, just like others it would be fine in a situation where it isn't hurtful despite you using it or it's time correctly. During early levels since single targets aren't an issue really, you could use it once or twice...though only three jobs (correct me if I'm wrong) can restore another players TP, it would let people learn how to manage that TP skill and give these jobs a reason to use their songs / spells..of course other adjustments will need to be made.

As for the DD - could use TP / MP to make a single skill AoE or LoS. 1.0 had that ability for archers to make a weaponskill LoS. The dungeons are so focused on AoE but our rotations don't allow it. That's why we're stuck at level 30 single kills on 3 mob pulls so much before a boss. TP cost would be high so not to spam but could toggle. Even a potency reduction if needed. Say in Longstep lv.30. Rouge fighting 3 mobs. Use up TP from Gust slash to make it cone. Major TP is consumed to do what's basically 3x throwing daggers on one mob. Though, that might add a level of complexity that some aren't ready for at that level...

It is pointless to have such a system in a game you are expected to be playing all the time anyway. I feel the same about mana, except for Black Mages, I believe that alone is the most clever way of dealing with resources that this game has implemented, and it astonishes me it wasn't applied in the other jobs. I would remove TP first, and perhaps remove Mana later as well after reviewing how Black Mages could work without it.

I would also go beyond and remove all cooldowns from self-buffs and make them work with resources you generate through combos, like Warrior's wrath stacks. But that is talk for another thread.

I don't like limited resources and I don't like cooldowns, it is lazy design that ends up in removal of player-game relationship, it decreases gameplay.

Well right now i am not sure how to make it more interesting. But there is one thing i would like to address thought on, because it is going to be an issue if things go further the way they are, without tp to change.
I am not sure if someone mentioned this already, so excuse me if i say something you know already, but it bothers me a little.
Right now on my pld equip of course i try to stay away from parry as much as possible because its useless. But i find myself with a lot of skill speed stuff at the moment, because choices right now are not the best for plds.
The result is my tp are quite fast quite empty and in fights like a9 not even half of the fight is over and i have tp problems. That kept me thinking.
Because at the moment we have like 1000 tp. they regenerate with a set amount per tick. some classes can very well raise tp a little, but if the current itemization continues, where will it end?
I dont know if there is cap on skill speed, but equip is always getting bigger values in stats. That results in always having to take less gear to get the same values in speed.
If nothing is done at some point we will end up either wasting stat points on speed that are useless, because we are already above the cap or we will be literally fast as a greased lightning without being a monk.
So i think before a complete overhaul should be done, we should also think of preventing such situations, because this wont as much time as a complete revamp .
Also keep in mind that just removing tp as a whole will result in physical dds dealing way too much damage. Maybe a cap on skill speed would then be needed or something of the sort, but i think now is the time to at least work in the direction to prevent this problem, because the process is already going on, if you catch my drift.
At

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Solaiel

I am not sure if someone mentioned this already, so excuse me if i say something you know already, but it bothers me a little.
Right now on my pld equip of course i try to stay away from parry as much as possible because its useless. But i find myself with a lot of skill speed stuff at the moment, because choices right now are not the best for plds.
The result is my tp are quite fast quite empty and in fights like a9 not even half of the fight is over and i have tp problems. That kept me thinking.

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Reducing all TP natural and bonus ticks by 20% but having them tick per player (base) GCD is an idea I and a couple others have passed around a few times. The idea would then be that there's virtually no additional TP drain for taking skill speed. 2.5 GCD classes would keep the same TP regeneration rate; the rest would be slightly buffed.