WM - Why does it turn Bard's into DoT Casters?

Hi, I have only just recently started playing Bard and I don't understand that much about it however I have played a LOT of Summoner. My main is a Summoner Lvl 60 however, I have to ask. What the hell is the point of WM on Bards.

Where is Square going with this, I picked Bard's because they are a MOBILE ranged DPS class. However WM turns them nothing more into a glorified Summoner (I really have mixed feelings about the Summoner on this game because they are not really a summoner, just another DOT mage).

Why are Square trying to turn Bard's into physical damage casters and not play to their strengths, one of which is their mobility in combat?

While you desire mobility, you should understand that the liberty that mobility-focused players take tends to get the rest of us hit unecessarily with AoEs, and we are full glad that bards are encouraged to stand still at later levels. If you move more than it takes to dodge an AoE or handle a mechanic, you are moving too much, and since you can still move at least enough to do those two things even with Minuet on, there is no problem with Wanderer's Minuet once you get the full set of abilities that makes it a damage gain.

My answer would be...
À running bard is Cute but not useful
If he want to deal damage WM is the way to go thanks to the huuuuge dmg boost

And as rongway said
On the way to 60 the bard get some strong useful ability that will help him keeping his style while dealing with WM
(Plus some very strong attack only available with WM)

Someone around here once said that if WM makes you move less, you were overmoving the whole time before. It's not meant to be on 100% of the time, but knowing when to move and when to toggle it is an important part of post-50 bardage.

That said, I completely understand the gripe with having your job's play change very drastically and suddenly.

My gripe with WM and GB is that they change brd and mch from their 50 playstyle and there's really no way to go back, these moves are permanent fixtures of the jobs now. People say "oh well, you can just not use them" but no you can't, because they are a damage increase, so you have to choose between doing your job properly or keeping the playstyle you picked the job for and levelled it all the way to 50 for.

brd and mch have turned into what Blm was at 50, Blm has become an even more strict no moving class at 60, but there's no class that is what brd and mch were at 50 anymore.

The best we can hope for is that they will introduce a counter stance, kind of like how WAR got deliverance. Maybe something like mch's rapid fire as a stance that halves the GCD but increases tp costs by 10% so brd and mch can use that and become about fast fire and free movement again but due to the increased speed and tp consumption they'll eat their tp really fast so will have to swap to WM/GB when they get low to conserve it.

Well you shouldn't consider it as casting its more like aiming. I don't know if you ever tried to fire a bow in your life but you have to aim first.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

brd and mch have turned into what Blm was at 50,

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I can tell you now this isn't true. Merely an exaggeration in an attempt to push your idea.

You get used to it. Can actually be fun and feel great once you get it down.

20% damage increase. But cast times are added to all archer and bard weapon-skills. During heavy boss AoE i usually to get one skill off before having to move. If i have to move before the skill gets off, restart the timer. that being said. BRD is not a dps class. Dot when you can, hit when you can, and use your songs for your party mates. You are support. As long as the boss dies who cares killed it.

If you want ranged mobility at endgame you're better off going with MCH instead of BRD. I've played BRD for a couple of years now, and "mained" it up until about two or so months ago. I personally feel MCH's toolkit allows for more mobility. They have more oGCDs and their ammo-proc system makes their 1-2-3 combo instant casts.

It's been said many times before, but BRD wasn't originally designed with WM in mind the way MCH was designed around GB. This becomes more apparent once you've played them both.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

I can tell you now this isn't true. Merely an exaggeration in an attempt to push your idea.

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It's actually quite an apt comparison if you think about it. Even their rotations are fairly similar.

50 BLM: cast your DoT for DoT procs. Cast your basic spell to proc another spell. Use your big nuke occasionally.
60 BRD: cast your DoTs for DoT procs. Cast your basic arrow to proc another arrow. Use your big arrow occasionally.

BLM cast times at 50 really weren't that strict, much like BRD's cast times aren't that strict now. However, when going to play BLM you know that cast times is what you're getting into. You have them from the start, it's what you're signing on for. With BRD it's tacked on after levelling it to 52. A little late in the job description.

I have the same gripe with the BRD job in general, playing archer you sign on for shooting things not singing, which is why so many BRDs don't use their songs, it's not what you signed on for. Really it just seems the entire class is a big bag of unwanted tricks getting shoved on it.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

I have the same gripe with the BRD job in general, playing archer you sign on for shooting things not singing, which is why so many BRDs don't use their songs, it's not what you signed on for. Really it just seems the entire class is a big bag of unwanted tricks getting shoved on it.

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More to the point, when do most of those early songs ever really shine? They just seem so situational that (personally) they can be totally ignored for the most part.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

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It's all due to balance, if BRD had the mobility they had in ARR and the DPS of a regular DPS, do you think anyone would pick different classes? See pre BRD nerf were they were at this level and you would have groups having multiple BRDs. If they dealt less than a regular DPS and had no support, why would you ever pick the class? The only way to input a archer DPS in the same way would be to limit it like a BLM were you got cast times and in that case the classes are too similar anyways.

As for WM, it was added to give the class some kind of skill level as it was a really easy class to play compared to the other classes. What actual use does WM have other than increasing thee skill ceiling? None, if BRDs had the same DPS as they do now but without WM it wouldn't make any difference balance wise. It would only be a really simple class to play.

I honestly like WM and GB it keeps me busier instead of running around because I can plus I love seeing the huge numbers with Barrage + Sidewinder crits are insane or 12k Wildfires into the mix it may feel like a chore to new people or people who lvl'd bard 1-52 but the pay off is amazing when played right and you can even cleanse yourself(!) fun times :3.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

It's all due to balance, if BRD had the mobility they had in ARR and the DPS of a regular DPS, do you think anyone would pick different classes?

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I think people would if only because they might not like brd or prefer other classes. That being said however, WM/GB are here to stay and won't be going anywhere anytime soon. But I did want to add another point, the complaint that brd goes from a highly mobile dps that could shoot while dodging telegraphs and then suddenly become a caster class after 52+ levels is a perfectly valid one. It is a rather drastic change in playstyle after playing the class for that long and I do believe that the criticism of not liking that drastic playstyle change after 52+ levels is a perfectly valid one.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

It's all due to balance, if BRD had the mobility they had in ARR and the DPS of a regular DPS, do you think anyone would pick different classes? See pre BRD nerf were they were at this level and you would have groups having multiple BRDs.

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You're forgetting that encounters at ARR's launch did not have mechanics aimed at ranged DPS. Melee had to deal with most stuff while ranged had little if anything to deal with. That's why people had multiple BRDs (in general raids stacked ranged DPS). The "problem" would have worked itself out if encounters had mechanics specifically aimed at ranged DPS. You have to encourage balanced raid comps anyway, so it would have also worked towards that goal.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

It would only be a really simple class to play.

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The ease of use I argue was a good thing. IIRC, a while back there was a post by the Blizzard Devs detailing how they prefer to have at least 1 intentionally unbalanced "noob friendly" class per tier in order to lower the barrier for entry to difficult content. BRD played this important role in ARR as it allowed fresh green players of lower skill to participate in the raid scene and ultimately gain experience necessary to excel in the higher skill ceiling jobs. While it isn't optimal balance that BRD should have extremely competitive DPS while mobile, being mobile with 3rd or 4th tier numbers is OK in my books, just to give newbie raiders a chance.
In its current form, the FFXIV raiding scene has an extremely high barrier for entry because mastery of any class requires insane commitment already, let alone learning raid mechanics + player mechanics etc etc.

In this regard, I feel Wanderer's Minuet was a mistake that should never have existed.

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Originally Posted by Malephicent

that being said. BRD is not a dps class.

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This is awful and you should feel bad for trying to spread this horrible notion.

Bard is a DPS class. There are no support classes in this game, just DPS classes with support abilities.

Bards job, first and foremost, is to deal damage.

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This is awful and you should feel bad for trying to spread this horrible notion.

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^This. Anyone who play BRD as a "its a support class not a DPS" will be kicked out of endgame parties constantly. Because good BRDs do ok DPS while supporting and everyone will be looking at your magic numbers.

I agree a decent bard deal massive damage in no time

Coming from black mage and playing bard (occasionnant it's a subsubsub job for fun... and my bow is covered by dust now)
I was baffles to hear bard complaining about mobility when i see how Short cast time are

I mean... try out black mage flare or Fire IV and you Will talk about mobility struggle
Add with that leyline and aoe spam from the ennemies...

The bard lose a bit of his mobility but they really can't complain to a black mage
I had fun playing bard because as a previous black mage i knew how to position myself adequately to avoid unnecessary move

Can't a BRD move like 1-2 seconds after every casts, except they have to use Ephymeral Arrow in the 2nd half of the GCD?

While BLM/SMN have something like 0,1-0,2s to move after GCD without dps-loss.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

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Yes the mechanics in early ARR had those issues and that could be seen that groups would more or less avoid melees but even then, it's a ranged fight but people preffered BRD over the other ranged.
The problem is that BRDs even if they get mechanics still have 100% uptime unless the boss is invulnerable, a melee has to disengage at some point in most fights while a BLM/SMN has to move which reduces DPS, while a BRD as long as it isn't a stop attacking mechanic can shoot non-stop, at a level of DPS close to casters it would mean that BRD overall is superior in a fight as they will have higher DPS.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

Yes the mechanics in early ARR had those issues and that could be seen that groups would more or less avoid melees but even then, it's a ranged fight but people preffered BRD over the other ranged.
The problem is that BRDs even if they get mechanics still have 100% uptime unless the boss is invulnerable, a melee has to disengage at some point in most fights while a BLM/SMN has to move which reduces DPS, while a BRD as long as it isn't a stop attacking mechanic can shoot non-stop, at a level of DPS close to casters it would mean that BRD overall is superior in a fight as they will have higher DPS.

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Even though in those same fights, once people get familiar with it you'd see less BRDs topping the meters over BLMs or even melee. At this point you're taking BRD (or MCH) for the group compisition and what htey provide rather than the numbers.

This also comes at the cost of all the ranged jobs essentially being casters at this point. You have no physical ranged dps in the traditional sense and BRD's toolkit suffers for it since their pre-50 traits were not designed with cast times in mind, on top of homogenizing their gameplay with MCH since GB is functionally the same for their purposes. To me it's less about the mobility (even though it can be primarily the reason that some people do not want to play a caster to begin with) but the design of ranged dps in general compared to it's peers. As a former BRD current MCH main, it's just disappointing to see their gameplay be homogenized into a psuedo caster, as well as to each other since they have the same basework with few layers.

I adjusted to WM pretty easly mostly because I was never moving around like a hamster on caffeine, to me it (WM) really forced us to focus more on where our DPS was coming from our dots, obviously our dps is not on par with smn but if you mess up that dot recast or fumble on our rotation our DPS tanks our job just had the skill cap raised a bit all be it very sudden.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

The problem is that BRDs even if they get mechanics still have 100% uptime unless the boss is invulnerable

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There are other ways to reduce ranged uptime on a boss. The easiest one to throw in would be adds; specifically adds that are out of melee range. Objects or obstacles that explode (thus requiring ranged DPS to deal with it) are another way of deal with things. If your boss has multiple target points, place one out of melee range so that the ranged have to focus on it. Avoidable attacks that deal splash damage that target only ranged DPS would be another way. A debuff that targets ranged DPS that makes them explode for massive damage if they attack. A debuff that targets ranged DPS that forces them to run away from the group (thus not attack the boss) also works.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

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Of course but these mechanics would hit casters as well so even then the damage output of a BRD would be higher than the other ranged.
This is probably the largest reason why there exists no pure DPS archer type class and instead BRD was given the support role with songs, it's a way to make the class lucrative while not making people stack multiples of it.
Though as RiceisNice said, the damage of a caster gets better the longer they have done the fight due to beng able to position themselves.

On the topic of WB, while I definitely see why people dislike it. The problem would be what should be implemented instead, that still forces someone to play the class clever and skullfully. If you look at every class atm they have something that requires handling something in a smart way. BLM has resource management and movement planning, SMN is micro managing pet(probably more but don't know the class), MNK has their stack mechinc other than being a melee that requires positionals, DRG has to handle Botd, NIN has their mudras. What BRDs have without WB is songs and dots, songs are easy to manage and every class has some type of dots so the class required something to make them difficult. Which SE thinking WB being the best option.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

On the topic of WB, while I definitely see why people dislike it. The problem would be what should be implemented instead, that still forces someone to play the class clever and skullfully. If you look at every class atm they have something that requires handling something in a smart way. BLM has resource management and movement planning

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When we're looking at going into an expansion, that's the perfect time to plan something that would work. They could have done some form of TP management on BRD (or MCH for that matter via attachments), a stacking resource management gained through procs/crits in the form of song/verses, etc etc. What we got instead was them scrapping the intial idea of MCH (having multiple attachments and ammo being a hard requirement for skills) and giving MCH mechanics to BRD (the aforementioned gauss barrel). It really doesn't feel thought out or innovative when your post-50 abilities gives you cast times when everyone else gets these new abilties and timers, let alone something that they already gave to another job, the Machinist.

There's just absolutely no excuse to cut corners with design when you're going into an expansion; it makes for a very poor foundation to build upon.

I'll be honest, I hated 3.0 Bard at first. I mained Bard from 2.0 and switched to BLM when 3.0 launched.

But after sticking with it and readjusting my play style, I absolutely love Bard now, to the point where I hate playing old content without WM.

On the plus side, WM has done away with those annoying Bards that used to run around in circles for absolutely no reason.

I like Bard. I love Machinist. I don't care if we're more mobile or less mobile. And I believe even if bards and machinists could freely move and shoot, they'd get their shit together quickly as far as getting others hit with skills is concerned. People aren't THAT stupid late-game. Cough.

But...

I still hate how it feels to cast a shot. To have a skill interupted by damage. To have the tank move a boss behind me during a cast and interupt it that way. It just doesn't feel good. Still.

Honestly though, the idea of charging up a shot is interesting. but does it have to affect -everything-? On Machinist, it'd be nice if Hot Shot didn't have to be casted with Gauss Barrel Attached. Everything else, I'd be fine with. But Hot Shot is a boring "must always have up" move.

I got tired of removing Gauss to reapply Hot Shot then put the Gauss back on, so I just cast it now.

Always. Have. To cast. It. : |

forgive me, im not a post-50 bard, but i dont feel as though WM exactly.. fits. in essence, it is a cast. but can anyone tell me the explanation for it being a cast? is it concentration, or charging aether, or a song that just works that way? I almost think it would make more sense if it were a bit more complicated..
For example, lets call it Pinpoint. explanation - the now experienced archer is aiming specifically for the enemy's weak points, when before they could aim and shoot quickly with less specific placement. each GCD shot has an aiming time of 1.5 seconds, but its more of a charge. the bard can move at any point during the charge and the global cooldown starts at activation. if the skill was charged .5 seconds before interruption, it does 10% more damage. 1 second charge is 20% more, and 1.5 is 30% more damage (okay the stance would have to increase oGCDs by a proportional amount, or adjust values, but anyway).

Now this means having to cancel your skill quickly is a dps loss and encourages people not to run around all the time, but its not the same as that pesky AoE or mechanic we couldnt avoid moving for cancelling a skill you already charged for a second and making you start the cast again. to me, thematically it also makes more sense, the minuet seems like it does what it does because.. it just does. extra damage for aiming at weak spots, coming from an experienced bard's knowledge, seems like a much more likely idea. But again thats just me and i'm no bard

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Originally Posted by Ashur

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See, you're not a post-50 Bard, but your thinking puts you miles ahead of some of the others before you. You realize just how flawed the whole idea with WM is. Props.

The ignorant man's response to why it's a cast is "lol, because yer aiming a shot! hurr durr." as clearly you have to hold and steady a shot as if you were pinning a target miles away when its only 3 feet in front of you. Also, you could only ever fire an arrow standing perfectly still. Clearly there doesn't exist any fashion of archery that focuses on literal run and gun tactics. Yeah, the charge idea has always been dumb. If one were one recreate the whole action of interrupting your charge in real life you'd spend 1 second knocking and pulling back an arrow, you twitch you left foot a centimeter and you then just drop the arrow. Not let it fly, nope, you just... take it off the bowstring.

But that just further validates that the whole introduction of WM was a hasted, slapped on side job done in crunch time because they have for forever now been in conflict with themselves over what they actually want from Bard.

Your not the first to offer the idea of a proper wind-up mechanic, scaling power over time. I've suggested that rather than halt movement completely to instead just slow movement mid cast, only losing cast if you were to turn to face away from the target. You gain the window for more damage, can still adjust, and utilize mobility that can serve under duress. It'd certainly open itself to players wanting to have that middle ground that existed pre-HW.

If we ever see a change in 4.0, these concepts are what I would love to see. At least, DPSer wise. I still wait to see more utility out of the support mechanics as well, and hopefully by 4.0 SE will have thought of something practical AND appropriately thematic that really brings life into this job.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

Of course but these mechanics would hit casters as well so even then the damage output of a BRD would be higher than the other ranged.
This is probably the largest reason why there exists no pure DPS archer type class and instead BRD was given the support role with songs, it's a way to make the class lucrative while not making people stack multiples of it.

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I'll disagree here, having seen scenarios where mobile ranged DPS existed yet raids didn't stack said mobile ranged DPS. FFXIV had shortcomings in raid design when the game launched that I hope the devs have learned to overcome by now.

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On the topic of WB, while I definitely see why people dislike it. The problem would be what should be implemented instead, that still forces someone to play the class clever and skillfully.

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I have a feeling you're trying to play the skill card, so I'll simply stay that "this class is too easy" is never a reason to change anything about its design or gameplay. If people like it, leave it alone or build off it. If it causes actual balance issues, then you can do something about it.

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BLM has resource management and movement planning

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BLM is actually another good example of change for its own sake. Movement wouldn't be much of an issue if Leylines had a circle of forgiveness about 2 yalms or so. Not getting into how Enochian basically messed with a class that had extremely good gameplay flow. I know it generates nice numbers, but that's not much of a justification.

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What BRDs have without WB is songs and dots, songs are easy to manage and every class has some type of dots so the class required something to make them difficult. Which SE thinking WB being the best option.

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I'm not going to fault a class for being simpler or easier to play, since the game needs to have classes for varying skill levels of gameplay.

This said, WM didn't add anything skill-wise to the job. All it did was alter the flow of gameplay in a way people who initially rolled and mained the class were not looking for. Hence why people call WM BRD bowmage and why they are understandably upset.

This all goes back to the approach the devs took and what other elements could have been added to BRD's gameplay instead of just throwing in a toggle at lv52. Unsurprisingly, the expansion is almost a year old and people are still complaining about WM's change to BRD gameplay, just like I posited last August. To make it easy to find:

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Making it worse, the jarring change was left intact since a new person picking up ARC/BRD today would level as the old guard did 1-51 and then feel WM change the core gameplay of the job from 52-60. So rather than having just the old guard complaining and not liking the new design, you also have new people who pick up that job as potential members of that camp.

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Assuming we were to leave the job's original gameplay intact, you could un-nerf bow damage and have your attacks gain extra potency on targets under Venomous Bite/Windbite. This would mean BRD gameplay is the same but now has a ramp-up mechanic. There's also mechanics that could work off this original gameplay without changing a major aspect of gameplay (like the Invocation mechanic I suggested a while back).

If you absolutely HAVE to give the job cast times, then change stuff at the baseline. This would mean ARC would have cast times on certain skills, and all traits and skill synergies would have to be designed around that. Here's an idea I had about that; just ignore the Ranger-related stuff.

The bottom line is that WM was not the way to go.