Can we have 0/0/4 for Dungeons please? No? Then maybe harder dungeons please :(

I would like to have 4 DPS for Dungeons now, because a normal group of 3-5 mobs need 5 minutes to bring down a Paladin in current "endgame" dungeons so we dont need Healer or Tanks now. Pharos Sirius (H) and Saint Mocainne were already very easy, but they had at least the option to full pull all mobs between bosses to a clusterfuck of mobs, wich was surely a challenge for Tanks and Healers.


But the current endgame dungeons are just a joke in regards of dealt mob damage. They were a joke when they came out already but week by week its getting more ridiculous, up the the point were you can kill second boss in Amdapor without a single heal and that not even in maxed out itemgear. Going in Amdapor or Anti Tower with no Tank is no problem at all, i am literally waiting for it to go in with no tank and no healer. Not sure what Square wants a healer to do in those dungeons, because there is barely any heal needed and when the average whm tries to dps its like 3243,Miss,3431,Miss,Miss,1938,Miss. :confused:

I do understand that content gets easier by time because of average player ilvl, but why not making endgame dungeons at least in the beginning challenging? They can get easy as fuck by the end of the patch circle but jesus at least make them "hard" in the beginning and screw all those walls you put in there.

I loved Pharos Sirius (hard) for that. It was pretty easy in the beginning aswell for sure, but the players had at least the option to pull as much mobs between bosses as they would like to, without hitting walls after each 3 mob group like now in Anti Tower. Healing a super pull with all Mobs between first and second boss in Pharos was surely a challenge and i liked this.

I dont really understand why Dungeons nowadays have to be so boring. They looking good for sure, but ridiculous easy and underrewarding aswell as no option for optional ways. And please dont come with that casual player stuff, even those did manage to get through Aurum Vale and Brayflox more than once.

If you want 4 DPS in a dungeon, feel free to do so. Grab 3 friends and queue yourself as a pre-made.

I vote no. And what about the sick and disabled players who play the game and pay their sub? You might find those dungeons "easy", but when you're sick and disabled those dungeons are anythng but easy, they're super hard.

You can already go 0/0/4 into dungeons. You just need a fully pre-formed for it. DF restrictions to 1/1/2 instead of x/x/x (because 0/0/4 would screw over both tanks and healers) is to ensure a balanced party composition for those who prefer that. If a dungeon was released with the requirement 0/0/4, it'd automatically be excluded from roulette if you queued up as healer or tank. If it was x/x/x you could end up in a 4/0/0 party or a 0/4/0 party.

I understand what you're saying, and I wouldn't mind seeing some harder dungeons -- as long as all the dungeons of that patch/tier were equally hard. We don't want to end up with another Pharos Sirius or Neverreap situation, do we? ^_~
They could even release one of those separately (to give us three new dungeons per patch) and call it [dungeon name] (Savage) or (Extreme) instead of (Hard Mode), and not include it in the Expert Roulette. Say, for example, "Stone Vigil (Extreme)". And once they had two or three of those released, they could have a separate roulette for them.
("Savage" would probably be a better term than "Extreme" though... Since we're already familiar with the term denoting a really taxing version of the 'normal' mode outside of primal fights, and because you could then have the roulette be called Savage Roulette, and avoid the misunderstandings when shortening both Expert and Extreme Roulettes to Ex Roulette...)

You can already do this. Preformed parties have no restriction on composition. We did an all SMN run a while back in my FC just for kicks.

I know you can go in with 0/0/4 already. That was just sarcasm. I am not asking for super hard dungeons, but like 95% of all dungeons before were harder and some were even by far harder than the last ones and even for those we did not even slighty hit the ilvl cap of 240. Just make them so that your fellow Healer actually has something to heal and not hoping that his dps spells actually hit something and your Tank uses his cooldowns to actually lower incoming damage and not just to look good and flashy.

Edit: People often cry for harder content. I can remember those people saying HW will be harder content yay. Making Dungeons easier patch by patch isnt really helping the community to move forward to harder content. Titan Hard Mode was a perfect example for actual challenging midcore content.

@Noxifer: Would be a good idea yep.

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Originally Posted by Sanghelios

I know you can go in with 0/0/4 already. That was just sarcasm. I am not asking for super hard dungeons, but like 95% of all dungeons before were harder and some were even by far harder than the last ones and even for those we did not even slighty hit the ilvl cap of 240. Just make them so that your fellow Healer actually has something to heal and not hoping that his dps spells actually hit something and your Tank uses his cooldowns to actually lower incoming damage and not just to look good and flashy.

Edit: People often cry for harder content. I can remember those people saying HW will be harder content yay. Making Dungeons easier patch by patch isnt really helping the community to move forward to harder content. Titan Hard Mode was a perfect example for actual challenging midcore content.

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Have you considered doing dungeons with ilvl synced to minimum? It makes a notable difference. Honestly one thing I think would make things interesting is if they took that feature and offered a reward for players who played the content at that difficulty.

People cry for harder content and more varied mechanics but often get frustrated and upset when content like that comes out. Remember when they tried a different type of mechanic for trials with Steps of Faith? As a trail it was pretty interesting mechanically if you knew what you were doing. However people ended up just leaving it when ever it came up in the roulette or just outright avoiding the roulette because of it until they nerfed it through the floor.

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Originally Posted by Sanghelios

Just make them so that your fellow Healer actually has something to heal and not hoping that his dps spells actually hit something

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3.26, released two weeks ago, fixed the healer dps issue by reducing the accuracy requirement for the Antitower and Lost City HM.

That said, I do agree that these two dungeons are too much on the easy side. I wouldn't mind dungeons where I'm not spending over 90% of the run in cleric stance.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Remember when they tried a different type of mechanic for trials with Steps of Faith? As a trail it was pretty interesting mechanically if you knew what you were doing. However people ended up just leaving it when ever it came up in the roulette or just outright avoiding the roulette because of it until they nerfed it through the floor.

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For me, the frustrations I had with Steps of Faith wasn't necessarily with the mechanics, but the fact that the fight's reset point was very poorly implemented. If things in the party went irrecoverably bad, said party would still have to wait until the dragon reached the end, limiting the amount of attempts in an instance timer.

Squeare Enix tried this with Amdapor keep and Pharos Sirius on the beggining. The first release of this ones weren't really hard, but they were challenging. The result? People compalining about difficulty, and ending in a nerf. Since then, no real difficulty in any dungeon.

Does't matter if they put it, a lot of poepe with end complaining about this and finish in a nerf. Is not SE problem, is player problem.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Have you considered doing dungeons with ilvl synced to minimum? It makes a notable difference. Honestly one thing I think would make things interesting is if they took that feature and offered a reward for players who played the content at that difficulty.

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Can't do that with HW content, unfortunately (since that setting is part of the Unsynched settings, and those are unavailable for HW content), so it doesn't really help when it's the level 60 dungeons we're talking about ^^;

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

Can't do that with HW content, unfortunately (since that setting is part of the Unsynched settings, and those are unavailable for HW content), so it doesn't really help when it's the level 60 dungeons we're talking about ^^;

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Really? I knew you couldn't go unsynced but I didn't know you couldn't use the ilvl sync. That's a bummer. I still think it would probably be one of the best ways to add a more difficult alternative since the system is already there. Just slap a bonus for using it to do content and people will be interested in it.

Just form your own group and do undersized party option. Or go play DCUO if you want 4 dps dungeon groups.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Really? I knew you couldn't go unsynced but I didn't know you couldn't use the ilvl sync. That's a bummer. I still think it would probably be one of the best ways to add a more difficult alternative since the system is already there. Just slap a bonus for using it to do content and people will be interested in it.

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Or, you know, go grab a set of gear at that ilv and go in...

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Originally Posted by HPDelron

You can already do this. Preformed parties have no restriction on composition. We did an all SMN run a while back in my FC just for kicks.

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I miss doing full SMN runs of WP back in 2.0.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Or, you know, go grab a set of gear at that ilv and go in...

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That's a real pain, particularly with varying ilvls. You would need 3 different full sets just for the lvl 60 HW dungeons.

To the people are saying that people complained and took the easy route, that is because there IS an easy route, the problem with Pharos etc. wasn't that they were too hard, it's that pharos launched alongside dungeons which were much easier and quicker. The problem is difficulty balance in roulettes, not difficulty itself.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

To the people are saying that people complained and took the easy route, that is because there IS an easy route, the problem with Pharos etc. wasn't that they were too hard, it's that pharos launched alongside dungeons which were much easier and quicker. The problem is difficulty balance in roulettes, not difficulty itself.

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Well they cant just make only hard dungeons because there are plenty of people out there who don't particularly want hard dungeons, particularly if they are grinding currency.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Well they cant just make only hard dungeons because there are plenty of people out there who don't particularly want hard dungeons, particularly if they are grinding currency.

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so whats the solution? because they can't have unbalanced dungeons. And if I'm honest, 3.2 has been such a breaking point for me on how bad dungeons have become, antitower was basically a straight line with mobs that barely hurt.

How would you propose they improve that?

premade party - be free to setup the roles how your party want it (can communicate together before entering the dungeon)

random party - the system decide the setup of the roles, so it work the best with every type of players who just meet the first time (can't communicate together before entering the dungeon)

The only problem is that the current dungeons are balanced around the idea that even 4 bad players should still be able to clear it. But that is about the dungeons itself, not the party setup. A 1/1/2 party can be, with the right dungeon, still challengeable. See Aurun Vale.

It's not really a joke. It sounds like a joke but it's a good challenge.

Players complain about challenge when they could easily ramp up the challenge themselves through user-imposed restrictions. This happens in a ton of games.

"I'm going to beat Street Fighter without using any kick buttons"
"I'm going to beat Mega Man without taking a single point of damage and using only my buster"
"I'm going to solo this really tough monster in XI using WHM"

More specific XIV examples
"Let's go beat up Twintania in i55 gear"
"Let's go beat up Nael in i70 gear"
"Let's go do Twintania with only classes"
etc etc

Even in this thread people are suggesting "Just go in with 4 DPS yourself and see how it goes". That's the challenge.

Yes, it would be nice if S-E did cater to that section of the player base by providing more difficult dungeons but at the same time there's nothing stopping the players themselves from restricting themselves in specific ways to increase the challenge.

I'd be curious how many people actually cleared Savage SCoB at ilvl. I imagine "not that many" else we'd probably see more development towards "challenge raids" that had no reward associated with it - it's there purely for challenge.

In lieu of that - players should challenge themselves if they want to see more difficulty. Play that min ilvl sync and see how much better you get. Still too easy? Then play it in white gear. Play it only classes. Etc etc.

You don't need S-E to tell you that content X, Y, Z is challenging - tell yourself to do it.

[EDIT] Oh, post I was responding to got deleted >>;.... *Hides the quote*

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

I love how everyone's response to how lolsy modern MMOS have become is "go in with white gear"... What a joke "Oh 95% of the game is too easy? Have you tried gimping yourself, sir?"

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

I love how everyone's response to how lolsy modern MMOS have become is "go in with white gear"... What a joke "Oh 95% of the game is too easy? Have you tried gimping yourself, sir?"

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I see no issue with that?

I mean, you might as well play every game only in "Very Easy" because picking a harder difficulty is just gimping yourself.

MMOs unfortunately lack the luxury of a difficulty slider or setting. And just looking through some of the achievement data of my steam games, difficulties above "normal" typically have less than 10% the scores Very Easy -> Normal have. I frankly expect all but a tiny minority of content to be easy for a more seasoned gamer considering these circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Korbash

I vote no. And what about the sick and disabled players who play the game and pay their sub? You might find those dungeons "easy", but when you're sick and disabled those dungeons are anythng but easy, they're super hard.

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Can you please stop using this when you don't agree with threads? If you personally don't find things easy because of this then that's fine, but stop generalising sick and disabled people into finding the game hard. Just because people are sick doesn't mean they automatically don't enjoy challenging aspects of the game.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Can you please stop using this when you don't agree with threads? If you personally don't find things easy because of this then that's fine, but stop generalising sick and disabled people into finding the game hard. Just because people are sick doesn't mean they automatically don't enjoy challenging aspects of the game.

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this ^

using disabled ppl as weapon ...makes this ppl no favor,...if SE or any dev had to create games based on disabled ppl (and im sure FFXIV is a example of game that thinks on disable, even deaf players ) then no game will be ever be challenging...i cant talk for them , but im sure they can enjoy some "super hard" challenges too, hell some ppl like to be challenged to the extreme and there are games that cater to them , Dark souls series is a example of that...

I like easy dungeons. They make me feel as if I know what I'm doing and distract me from the yawning abyss where my soul should be.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Can you please stop using this when you don't agree with threads? If you personally don't find things easy because of this then that's fine, but stop generalising sick and disabled people into finding the game hard. Just because people are sick doesn't mean they automatically don't enjoy challenging aspects of the game.

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If I wanted to play something challenging, I'd play games like Dark Soul, or a hardcore MMO, there are a few out there, but I play MMOs to have fun, FF XIV is targeted for casual players, do quests, explore areas. I've been playing games since 5-6 with the Atari console, then Nintendo, now I play MMOs.

And I'm talking about physical limitations, and my condition is getting worse, and the constant pain that prevent me from doing the hard contents of Heavensward, I'm not being lazy, it's very very difficult to do it for me. Why should I let the few hardcore players ruin the MMO that I'm playing?

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

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Yeah, it just annoys me. Being sick or disabled doesn't determine how someone wants to play a game. I raided FcoB with a drip attached to me. Sorry to derail from the thread, I just thought something needed to be said as he's used this excuse twice now on two separate threads.

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Originally Posted by Korbash

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I'm sorry but nobody is ruining anything for you because the majority of suggestions you've been posting this excuse on have been completely optional and you wouldn't even have to touch them. Does Savage ruin the game for you? No. So I still stand with what I'm saying, being sick or disabled has absolutely nothing to do with any of this and you shouldn't be using it as an argument.

If you want a challenge, get 4 friends and try to play a dungeon without the HUD.
Memorize your keybindings and try to beat the dungeon without seeing anyone's health or incoming attacks.

You can still use attacks / skills / spells without the HUD, and I'm sure you can still use keys to cycle through targets. I don't remember if the Mouse works or not.

You can even try "Undersized party" and entering a dungeon way below your level just to see how it is. Work your way up to harder and harder ones.

It might sound stupid, but it would be hard and challenging.

EDIT: Another idea. Make a 2nd character and impose perma death on yourself. Run with only people you really trust. (DF is a bad idea.)
If you die, delete the character. See how far you can get.

I did this in FFXI for a while and it really made me play the game a lot differently. I think I got to level 47 when I died.
I did delete that character, and gave all my money to friends.

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Originally Posted by Korbash

If I wanted to play something challenging, I'd play games like Dark Soul, or a hardcore MMO, there are a few out there, but I play MMOs to have fun, FF XIV is targeted for casual players, do quests, explore areas. I've been playing games since 5-6 with the Atari console, then Nintendo, now I play MMOs.

And I'm talking about physical limitations, and my condition is getting worse, and the constant pain that prevent me from doing the hard contents of Heavensward, I'm not being lazy, it's very very difficult to do it for me. Why should I let the few hardcore players ruin the MMO that I'm playing?

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Incorrect. It's a theme park, it has casual content AND it has hardcore content.

If you don't want to do the hard content, then don't.

Using the 'disabled people' argument is kinda pathetic. As sad as their situation is, Devs aren't going to cater to the 1% of the population that is disabled, and they shouldn't. Just stop.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Really? I knew you couldn't go unsynced but I didn't know you couldn't use the ilvl sync. That's a bummer. I still think it would probably be one of the best ways to add a more difficult alternative since the system is already there. Just slap a bonus for using it to do content and people will be interested in it.

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Actually, you're right ^^ As long as you're a complete party for the dungeon (i.e. 4 people), you can go into the HW dungeons with minimum IL sync. Tried it right now. (Well, I didn't go in, but I clicked in the option, and the HW dungeons were still available.) Didn't realize that ^^ Then again, I've never looked before when there were exactly 4 people in the party, so... ^^;

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Incorrect. It's a theme park, it has casual content AND it has hardcore content.

If you don't want to do the hard content, then don't.

Using the 'disabled people' argument is kinda pathetic. As sad as their situation is, Devs aren't going to cater to the 1% of the population that is disabled, and they shouldn't. Just stop.

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10% of the population is disabled, not 1%. 1 kid on 1000 has my illness (which I got when I was an infant). And people here are not asking for harder contents to get more raids like Alexander or the Binding Coil of Bahamut, they want the current dungeons, and the future dungeons, to be harder. The current hard contents do exist, in both these raids, which I do not play. The dungeons belong to the casual part of the game.

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Originally Posted by Korbash

10% of the population is disabled, not 1%. 1 kid on 1000 has my illness (which I got when I was an infant). And people here are not asking for harder contents to get more raids like Alexander or the Binding Coil of Bahamut, they want the current dungeons, and the future dungeons, to be harder. The current hard contents do exist, in both these raids, which I do not play. The dungeons belong to the casual part of the game.

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See, that last bit can actually be a good argument and something I can get behind. Just don't be trying to guilt people with something that is completely unrelated to the point and people will take you more seriously.

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Originally Posted by Korbash

10% of the population is disabled, not 1%. 1 kid on 1000 has my illness (which I got when I was an infant). And people here are not asking for harder contents to get more raids like Alexander or the Binding Coil of Bahamut, they want the current dungeons, and the future dungeons, to be harder. The current hard contents do exist, in both these raids, which I do not play. The dungeons belong to the casual part of the game.

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Even if I overlooked the fact you don't HAVE to run dungeons, you're being very selfish. Being sick doesn't make your opinion any more valid than anyone else's. I don't know why you think being disabled is supporting your argument in any way.

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Originally Posted by Korbash

If I wanted to play something challenging, I'd play games like Dark Soul, or a hardcore MMO, there are a few out there, but I play MMOs to have fun, FF XIV is targeted for casual players, do quests, explore areas. I've been playing games since 5-6 with the Atari console, then Nintendo, now I play MMOs.

And I'm talking about physical limitations, and my condition is getting worse, and the constant pain that prevent me from doing the hard contents of Heavensward, I'm not being lazy, it's very very difficult to do it for me. Why should I let the few hardcore players ruin the MMO that I'm playing?

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Your history in video games literally means nothing in the scope of this game, or anything in this thread. I don't understand why you brought it up. I assume it was to show that you are more of a casual player (?) but I can't tell. Though that doesn't make sense since "Nintendo" wasn't synonymous with casual gaming until the Wii.

Why should your condition "ruin" this game for everyone else? Just because YOU find something difficult, does not mean the majority does. If something challenging gets added, how in any way does that ruin the game for you? I'm sorry you are going through this, and it is hard, but using it as an argument or reason why something shouldn't be implemented is selfish. And I am not going to treat you, or reply to you, any differently because of it. How many people do you think play this game and have a painful disability, or just a physical/mental disability in general, that makes it hard for them to play or do harder content? I'd reckon a lot less than the number of players who want something a bit more challenging to be added.

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Originally Posted by Korbash

The dungeons belong to the casual part of the game.

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I disagree.

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

How many people do you think play this game and have a painful disability, or just a physical/mental disability in general? I'd reckon a let less than the number of players who want something a bit more challenging to be added.

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I'm only saying this to prove what you're saying but as I said in another thread he posted this on, I'm sick myself and love challenging content. If I was admitted to hospital I'd still take my PS4 and raid. On another note, FFXIV isn't a game catering for disabled and sick people. If you really find it that difficult to play and don't want hard content, you should maybe try another game.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

I'm only saying this to prove what you're saying but as I said in another thread he posted this on, I'm sick myself and love challenging content. If I was admitted to hospital I'd still take my PS4 and raid. On another note, FFXIV isn't a game catering for disabled and sick people. If you really find it that difficult to play and don't want hard content, you should maybe try another game.

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I agree. (Also I slightly edited my post to make it more clear what I was trying to say there). One should not use their disability as some sort of argument against what others might like. I'm sorry you are sick, but it's great to see that you don't let that stop you from doing something you enjoy.

How about 1/1/2 instead of 1/0/3 we currently have? Pretty please?

Regarding disabled or not... It's a fair argument, and while some people with disabilities don't have any problems raiding, others do. Same with people who don't have disabilities. And I think people would be annoyed if they decided to make a few dungeons out of a set harder, similar to how people say they made Pharos Sirius (normal) harder than the other two dungeons released that patch. It may not have been hard in itself, but in comparison to the other two it was more effort for the same reward, and that doesn't work.

Which was why I suggested they add a few extreme/savage versions of old dungeons and tune them harder (both mechanics-wise and damage-wise, I'd say) than the other two dungeons of the patch. Don't include it in the ex roulette, but keep them separate. Maybe add a new roulette (savage/extreme roulette, or something) for just those dungeons once there are two or three of them and have them require completion of all dungeons in the list before unlocking the roulette (similar to lvl50/60 roulettes). Basically a mix between a dungeon and a 4-man raid. Ish. It'd be interesting to see.

@Noxifer, it wasn't the fact that some people are disabled and can't play the content that we were annoyed at, it was the fact he generalised all sick and disabled players and tried using it to his advantage in his argument. Most sick people do not have a problem with playing the game and usually have more time on their hands if anything. Disabled people may have issues, but that shouldn't stop SE from developing the game. These dungeons the OP suggested can be completely optional and that's why he got the response he did.

Just clearing it up, no shade ^^

Edit: I like your idea too.

Understand that the point of the dungeons isn't to have them be hard.
Dungeons are supposed to be for people to catch up... To get quick tomes... and so on...
If you want hard, go in, strip down to much lower ilevel gear and work through it.