The cooldown reset on A8s is unbearable

Trying to learn first phase on this fight (and any fights but this one especially) its hugely demoralizing when over a 3rd of the raid time is standing there with thumbs up butts waiting for CDs.

I've heard of groups having to change their entire strategy if they involved HG or Living Dead since the cooldown reset is just unbearable.

Its so frustrating having get to together 8 from all around the world to spend so much time just standing looking at the boss waiting.

CD reset exists in SSS there is literally no reason SE can't take the time to implement this HUGE quality of life upgrade in its end game.

Yeah, it's been pretty awful lately. I get that it's probably an effort to extend raid longevity and not fixing it won't make me drop my sub but still... Just sucks to see a fix literally in the same zone as the entrance just be completely ignored.

Do you really need HG/Livind Dead that early?
Maybe work out other strategies. And since it's that early in the fight, learn the mechanics first, then concentrate on optimizing for high dps.

The reason why they don't want to reset cooldowns has been explained as it could be exploited somehow. It hasn't been detailed more than that.

While it can be annoying, it gives you time to reflect and discuss what to do next attempt.

There is also a risk that cooldown reset on wipe leads to situations where you intentionally wipe because you didn't get the perfect opener.

Fortunately, SE has been pretty tough on players who do exploit the system; even to the degree of, just because they hadn't previously announced "doing X, Y, Z is considered cheating", it's still considered cheating, and they have punished raiders who took advantage of them retroactively.

That being said, I think they could make some type of compromise. For example, what about halving the remaining timers on cooldowns upon full raid wipe and field reset. Think of it this way too SE, how much more gil would you remove from the economy by allowing us raiders to die sooner due to repair costs. See, it's a win-win.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

it could be exploited somehow

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How?
How can they feasibly believe it is better to deny this QOL improvement in case someone does something? It seems to be their default approach to a lot of things, denying things just in case people abuse them or whatever. And then when they do release content, it contains mechanics that can be cheesed anyway, such as T2 and A4S.

I actually can't think of a genuine way people could abuse the fact they start every boss encounter with all their CDs available... we do it anyway, just by waiting.

Why not implement this QOL change, and IF it is abused either take action against those individuals, or at worst, revert to what we have now. At least then the playerbase would only have itself to blame. The current head-in-the-sand approach, hoping people will stop asking, even though they are yet to come up with a single valid reason, has long since past being acceptable

Not only would CD reset be a blessing for raiding, but those times when DF pops while outside town and you switch class for it, all your stuff is gonna be on cooldown. Entering an instance and getting those reset would be great. I guess the whole reseting thing could be used to quickly reset CDs for openworld use (undersized solo enter→exit), but then again all relevant content is pretty much instanced so I don't think that'd make a huge difference.

I think a huge part of the problem is that a lot of strats are relying on Living Dead, Hallowed Ground, and Holmgang to allow healers to eke out some more damage beyond what the group would be capable of - basically, groups rely on these moves to make up for their own low gear threshold.

A group in ~215 gear is going to need every scrap of DPS they can get, and will need to rely on these "oh shit" buttons to succeed.

A group in ~230 gear is going to have a little more wiggle room, and might be able to get away with strats that don't use them.

My first A5S was with a PUG, and most of the players hadn't done savage before. The group leader had set the iLvl requirement at 215, and we ran into the exact issue described. Our DPS was just slightly too low, and we would get to 5% on the first miniboss before wiping. But because each attempt got that far, and because our strat relied on Hallowed Ground, we needed to wait 7 minutes between each attempt.

I can understand wanting to discourage its use like that, but groups are doing it anyway, and the restriction is making this part of the game seem extremely archaic and monotonous.

I wish they reset cooldowns when you both enter an instance and when you release from a full party wipe (basically when the boss resets) it would solve a lot of issues with raiding, one of the reasons I didn't like raiding was purely because of cooldown reset, me and my group had like 2 hours to raid, a good chunk of that was waiting for stuff to be back up.

Basically, it would be an excellent QoL addition with no real drawbacks, maybe it could be exploited to reset long cool-downs on the overworld (like entering an instance with friends and leaving quickly to get CD's back) but come on, I doubt that can be exploited for anything worth a damn.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

Do you really need HG/Livind Dead that early?
Maybe work out other strategies. And since it's that early in the fight, learn the mechanics first, then concentrate on optimizing for high dps.

The reason why they don't want to reset cooldowns has been explained as it could be exploited somehow. It hasn't been detailed more than that.

While it can be annoying, it gives you time to reflect and discuss what to do next attempt.

There is also a risk that cooldown reset on wipe leads to situations where you intentionally wipe because you didn't get the perfect opener.

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The fact that we have to change strategy because the wait time makes these actions unfeasible is ridiculous. There is nothing left to reflect and discuss when everyone knows what to do and just needs the chance to practice it.

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Originally Posted by Tizzy_Tormentor

... (basically when the boss resets) ...

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So.... Everybody buffs up, you send the sacrifice in to start a fight with the boss while everybody else waits outside the arena. He dies, boss resets, cooldowns reset, _AND_ you still have your buffs up?

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Originally Posted by Pells

So.... Everybody buffs up, you send the sacrifice in to start a fight with the boss while everybody else waits outside the arena. He dies, boss resets, cooldowns reset, _AND_ you still have your buffs up?

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This only apples to A5s of the current raid encounters, everywhere else once you get a complete party wipe, the instance fades to black and resets. And even tehn, the arena locks itself out after 10 seconds, and you have the time of running back, rebufing (or taking a 3 minute res sickness, which is probably more detrimental to party dps).

When you're looking at a fight like A6s, you want to kill blaster in an X amount of time to beat the enrage timer...which means having cooldowns from the start. If you get a freak wipe because of someone getting caught in mirage or landmines not being taken care of, it's as good as a wipe because you probably won't be meeting the enrage timer on a clearing attempt.

boss reset or leave combat , like Rice mentioned that could work on A6s but just the 1 boss..., because after that u are in combat until kill all the bosses...or wipe.

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Originally Posted by Tigerlilley

Trying to learn first phase on this fight (and any fights but this one especially) its hugely demoralizing when over a 3rd of the raid time is standing there with thumbs up butts waiting for CDs.

I've heard of groups having to change their entire strategy if they involved HG or Living Dead since the cooldown reset is just unbearable.

Its so frustrating having get to together 8 from all around the world to spend so much time just standing looking at the boss waiting.

CD reset exists in SSS there is literally no reason SE can't take the time to implement this HUGE quality of life upgrade in its end game.

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Yoshi said that they will not reset CDs on raids because they believe that there should be a penalty to dying in a fight. It encourages players to fight harder because they don't want to sit around waiting for CDs. If the CDs were instantly reset upon a wipe, teams would call for wipes more frequently as there would be no penalty.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

Yoshi said that they will not reset CDs on raids because they believe that there should be a penalty to dying in a fight. It encourages players to fight harder because they don't want to sit around waiting for CDs. If the CDs were instantly reset upon a wipe, teams would call for wipes more frequently as there would be no penalty.

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This is a fallacy since there is already a penalty of having to restart the fight. The 1~2 minutes of downtime is just attrition at that point when you get a wipe from messing up a single mechanic. there's no encouragement to "fight harder" if there is already the goal of clearing a fight in place.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

Yoshi said that they will not reset CDs on raids because they believe that there should be a penalty to dying in a fight. It encourages players to fight harder because they don't want to sit around waiting for CDs. If the CDs were instantly reset upon a wipe, teams would call for wipes more frequently as there would be no penalty.

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Do you have a source?

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Originally Posted by Tigerlilley

Trying to learn first phase on this fight (and any fights but this one especially) its hugely demoralizing when over a 3rd of the raid time is standing there with thumbs up butts waiting for CDs.

I've heard of groups having to change their entire strategy if they involved HG or Living Dead since the cooldown reset is just unbearable.

Its so frustrating having get to together 8 from all around the world to spend so much time just standing looking at the boss waiting.

CD reset exists in SSS there is literally no reason SE can't take the time to implement this HUGE quality of life upgrade in its end game.

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Many of us have not only been hoping for this but expecting this for a long time now, and the lack of a genuine response has become a bit frustrating. The main "exploit" people mention is wiping until an optimal opener is achieved, but this is very unlikely unless the group knows the fight well and is optimizing which means they are probably farming for a speed run anyway so who does this harm? Changing a strategy to never use a long cd (living dead, holmgang, hallowed ground, and benediction) in the first five minutes is not a consideration for many groups just because of an artificial time gate. Cd's not resetting on a wipe contributes to frustration and burn out more than extending the time people want to play in my opinion. Especially in fights such as A8s where we sometimes end up waiting for cd's longer than we even got to fight on a preceding run.

My friend and our DRK for raid went to PAX, he told my raid he asked Yoshida if they would even implement CD resettin on wiping in an instance. He told us that he responded by saying "We'd be afraid of balance problems." Friend was baffled.

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Originally Posted by Pells

So.... Everybody buffs up, you send the sacrifice in to start a fight with the boss while everybody else waits outside the arena. He dies, boss resets, cooldowns reset, _AND_ you still have your buffs up?

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Yes because you're totally going to be able to have that one person die and run all the way back in the 20 seconds raging strikes is still on you.

People coming up with ways this could be 'exploited' is nothing short of laughable to me.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Yes because you're totally going to be able to have that one person die and run all the way back in the 20 seconds raging strikes is still on you.

People coming up with ways this could be 'exploited' is nothing short of laughable to me.

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not that i agree with her, but it is entirely possible, there is almost always a checkpoint to the boss after u fight its trash or in the case of some fights you are right at the boss immediately, lets say you get a healer to take off all gear, run in and get easily one shoted, respawn and get immediately protected while gear changing as soon as they respawn. that would eat up at most 5 to 6 seconds if done right.

its still a silly exploit and it wont do anything but help burst dps, but regardless, it would be very doable.

Alternativly to prevent this type of exploit, they could remove all benefical abilties on the target as well as reset the cooldowns, which would solve everything that is exploitable about this anyway

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Originally Posted by LeeraSorlan

snip

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You might get one or two hits in at most. And that's if the person dying has a fast CPU where they can load and take the shortcut near instantly.

It's just silly to even bring up. Not even to mention, they could just make it so only people who have died and gone through the respawn loading screen get the cooldown reset...

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

Yoshi said that they will not reset CDs on raids because they believe that there should be a penalty to dying in a fight.

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we already call for wipes , and we have been doing so since the 1 coil...if 1 tank died in some encounter it was wipe ,and enrage or failures , T9 times were a pain and here it comes Phase 3....and some1 fails ..... call WIPE ...u even wiped on P2-3 and practicing 4 was what one of two times a day, A6s is a good example too , if u fail in some of the first 3 bosses , is better to wipe wait on cds and start again....fun fun!

food only last 30 mins , WHY? if Yoshi really thinks the punishment of wiping is having to be bored for 5 min , while u see the food buff going away slow and painfully...we fight harder , but sometimes some1 mess up , or something unexpected comes , and there it goes like 10 min of my life...i enjoy raiding , is the most fun thing in FFXIV for me but food duration , potions , and the waiting on Cds sometimes burn out ppl.....

they want to GAIN raiders? or lose more raiders? trying to convince ppl to give raiding a try in FFXIV is worse than raiding....they know how it goes , it can be fun , but i gonna need to buy food every day , potions , i was saving gil for X or dont even have gil on the 1 place (yep , there is almost 0 need for gil) ....and 2h raiding? and lots of this 2h is waiting on Cds? omg no way ...thats sounds anything but fun , why i would do that? :S

I'd recommend anyone who hasn't liked this post yet to do so for increased exposure on the skill reset issue. I'm not sure if it'll help but it does seem like the Dev team wants to know things of interest to the player base by the amount of likes it has.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

You might get one or two hits in at most. And that's if the person dying has a fast CPU where they can load and take the shortcut near instantly.

It's just silly to even bring up. Not even to mention, they could just make it so only people who have died and gone through the respawn loading screen get the cooldown reset...

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Yes. You have to consider how things will be exploited when proposing changes. Because if it is possible, it will be exploited. One or two hits when buffed is better than none, so it is an advantage. Whether it is worthwhile can be debated.

They already have a screen fading mechanic built when a boss resets for many fights, just extend that screen fading for every fight, remove all buffs and reset all cooldowns with it, I fail to see how that would be exploited.

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Originally Posted by LeeraSorlan

not that i agree with her, but it is entirely possible, there is almost always a checkpoint to the boss after u fight its trash or in the case of some fights you are right at the boss immediately, lets say you get a healer to take off all gear, run in and get easily one shoted, respawn and get immediately protected while gear changing as soon as they respawn. that would eat up at most 5 to 6 seconds if done right.

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What scenario is this? All trials have you fighting in a enclosed boss room that if someone aggros the boss, everyone is engaged to the fight. Only a total party wipe would reset it. A1, 2, 3 and 5 doesn't this, but are you honestly saying that they can get one shot'd, return to base, take the short cut, and run back into the boss fight all within 15 seconds (with no mana and TP, mind you). Who is even getting the cooldown reset at this point?

You can't do this in dungeons because shortcuts do not put you in front of the boss arena, only to where the previous boss was.

Not to sound rude, but this is an incredibly silly excuse to play devil's advocate with; it doesn't even make sense within the context of the game.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

All trials have you fighting in a enclosed boss room that if someone aggros the boss, everyone is engaged to the fight. Only a total party wipe would reset it.

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Not only this. You can't release your character back to the entrance in fight like this after death.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

it doesn't even make sense within the context of the game.

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are you saying it absolutely cant be done? sure, on the primal encounters and some raid bosses everyone is in the fight if one starts the fight, but look at something like (for example of course) T11 at i130.
it is completely possible to get one shot immediately, taking less than 5 seconds to die and respawn, taking a little over 3 seconds to use the shortcut and be right back with the party. assuming you arent playing on windows 95 and u take 10 years to load these two things, thats 8 seconds, getting rebuffed and blowing your shroud/potion/mana wahtsit abilties going in as a healer, its definantly possible to do this in 15 seconds or less.
as i said im not trying to justfiy this as some excuse to not reset the cooldowns, as i fully agree they should be reset regardless of this minimal exploit (That is easily fixable). im just noting that it is possible to do so in some instances

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

What scenario is this? All trials have you fighting in a enclosed boss room that if someone aggros the boss, everyone is engaged to the fight. Only a total party wipe would reset it. A1, 2, 3 and 5 doesn't this, but are you honestly saying that they can get one shot'd, return to base, take the short cut, and run back into the boss fight all within 15 seconds (with no mana and TP, mind you). Who is even getting the cooldown reset at this point?

You can't do this in dungeons because shortcuts do not put you in front of the boss arena, only to where the previous boss was.

Not to sound rude, but this is an incredibly silly excuse to play devil's advocate with; it doesn't even make sense within the context of the game.

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The primal trials start you in the arena, yes. So does Midas 4. Midas 1-3 start you outside the arena, and it is possible to be locked out so this might work. None of which is why I'm playing devil's advocate. Any change won't be introduced until the next raid tier, and it is not yet known to any of us how those fights will be set up. By the time this matters, nobody is going to care about Midas Savage, or possibly even Ravana and Bismark Extreme. They'll be old hat.

I am not opposed to cooldowns being reset when raiding. I am opposed to it being done in some half-assed manner that would break things or simply be more hassle than it's worth.

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Originally Posted by Tizzy_Tormentor

... (basically when the boss resets) ...

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Such as this, which I addressed, and it has been countered.

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Originally Posted by LeeraSorlan

Alternativly to prevent this type of exploit, they could remove all benefical abilties on the target as well as reset the cooldowns, which would solve everything that is exploitable about this anyway

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And this would probably be the best alternative, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Pells

Midas 1-3 start you outside the arena, and it is possible to be locked out so this might work.

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Normal yes. But in Savage for example A6 is different than normal mode.

We had it today. Someone pulled the Blaster because he activated the auto run. Everybody ran out. 2 ppl died till the door closed and the boss semed to reset. But it was no full reset. The death ppl could not release back to the entrance. We had to pull again and wipe the entire party to get a full reset of the fight.

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Originally Posted by Pells

I am not opposed to cooldowns being reset when raiding. I am opposed to it being done in some half-assed manner that would break things or simply be more hassle than it's worth.

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Did you ever raid in this game? I've not seen a single group not waiting for cooldowns after wipe.

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Originally Posted by Tizzy_Tormentor

Basically, it would be an excellent QoL addition with no real drawbacks, maybe it could be exploited to reset long cool-downs on the overworld (like entering an instance with friends and leaving quickly to get CD's back) but come on, I doubt that can be exploited for anything worth a damn.

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I wonder... have people jumped into Stone Sky Sea to reset cool downs for floors like A6S, A7S and A8S (or even EX Primals)? I left out A5S because leaving requires you to fight Faust x2 and Hummelfaust again. Because it's not like Binding Coil.
I personally haven't tried popping all my cool downs before entering SSS, but if I can do that... well, it would definitely shave off the 3-5 minute wait for certain cool downs. Main flaw would be constantly sending out invitations or something (I don't remember, but SSS is solo only, yeah?)

Of course, I personally would prefer CD's to reset after wipes. Just reserve that QoL for Savage Raids and Extreme Primals.

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Originally Posted by LeeraSorlan

are you saying it absolutely cant be done? sure, on the primal encounters and some raid bosses everyone is in the fight if one starts the fight, but look at something like (for example of course) T11 at i130.

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T11 requires a total party wipe to reset the fight because there's no entrance or barrier.

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Originally Posted by LeeraSorlan

it is completely possible to get one shot immediately, taking less than 5 seconds to die and respawn, taking a little over 3 seconds to use the shortcut and be right back with the party. assuming you arent playing on windows 95 and u take 10 years to load these two things, thats 8 seconds, getting rebuffed and blowing your shroud/potion/mana wahtsit abilties going in as a healer, its definantly possible to do this in 15 seconds or less.

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The black screen fading to black as you return to the exit alone takes a second, then 3 seconds for the respawn animation, then you have the running back (or if you're using the shortcut, that's another 2 seconds for loading speed even on my rig).

You're still also repsawning with 0 mp and 0 tp which is an issue espesically for healer, even with shroud. Even if it's possible as you put it, it's so incredibly impractical that you're at a disadvantage because of the resource loss.

[QUOTE=Pells;3681042]The primal trials start you in the arena, yes. So does Midas 4. Midas 1-3 start you outside the arena.../QUOTE]

As i mentioned earlier, you're more-than likely going to start at a disadvantage with the healer starting with less than half mana (even if you do blow their mana regen) because you're going to respawn with 0 mp and 0 tp. Even if this scenario was a example of an "Exploit", it's a silly one at that.

They will never put it in, they want raiders to play and not cancel subscriptions. The faster people can clear content the less they play during the week. It is honestly the only thing I can think of for not putting it in, saying there would be exploits cannot be true, they use that cause they most likely cannot give the real reason.

Running a8 again, the 120 seconds every perfect balance if someone messes a pentacle is destroying everyones mood. Its horrible :<

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Originally Posted by Tigerlilley

Running a8 again, the 120 seconds every perfect balance if someone messes a pentacle is destroying everyones mood. Its horrible :<

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Sounds like a good motivator to not screw up there...
From my perspective it sounds like your group have the wrong mindset going into the fight. Thinking "if we only had cooldown reset..." instead of "we need to get better at handling this. what can we do?".

Again from my perspective, cooldown reset would cause quicker burnout and less progress due to people thinking "we'll just wipe and try again" without stopping to think about what went wrong and how to do it better next time.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

Sounds like a good motivator to not screw up there...
From my perspective it sounds like your group have the wrong mindset going into the fight. Thinking "if we only had cooldown reset..." instead of "we need to get better at handling this. what can we do?".

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Mistakes happen, even if you know the fight perfectly (so it ends up with "sorry, lag happened" "kay"). Even if people talked about what they can do differently or whatever, it (usually) doesn't take 3-5 minutes to talk about it.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

Sounds like a good motivator to not screw up there...

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Having to restart the fight because you died is good enough of a motivator. Having to wait to try again (because of things not directly related to the fight or game dps mind you, but cooldowns) feels more like a punishment than a deterrence in that regard. Infact I don't think anyone even talks about having to wait 2 minutes or wanting to avoid it because of a wipe, just the frustration of a wipe actually happening on what could have been a clear attempt.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

From my perspective it sounds like your group have the wrong mindset going into the fight. Thinking "if we only had cooldown reset..." instead of "we need to get better at handling this. what can we do?".

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In response to the latter, the group already has that planned, it's all about execution rather than replanning (which can be more detrimental because you're essentially changing up something that's probably working in the first place, just not executed properly). However when it comes to a clear attempt, you neeed to be able to pull out reasonable amounts of dps in order to meet the dps check...hence you wait for cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

Again from my perspective, cooldown reset would cause quicker burnout and less progress due to people thinking "we'll just wipe and try again" without stopping to think about what went wrong and how to do it better next time.

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And from my perspective, dying to the first set of mirage on blaster because the OT had to run a full half circle to get to a landmine and waiting for 2 minutes is a faster way to burn out. It breaks the pacing of the fight, there's nothing to change up in regards to strategy, and we want to down blaster before the third landmines explode, so we need the extra dps during progression.

When people keep pointing out the part where you talk about and plan something different, I think they forget that this only really applies to world first progression and no one knows the fights. The fights are so incredibly scripted that you'll only ever have 2, maybe 3 valid strategies to handling it. Everything else would make it harder than it needs to be. And even after that ,you'll just round back to what I said previously and that it'd just come down to execution (and you'd need the extra dps to meet the enrage timer on a first-clear attempt).

If not a full reset, why not a partial?

Drop all CD's to 30 secs after a wipe (if they would have exceeded those timers).

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

As i mentioned earlier, you're more-than likely going to start at a disadvantage with the healer starting with less than half mana (even if you do blow their mana regen) because you're going to respawn with 0 mp and 0 tp. Even if this scenario was a example of an "Exploit", it's a silly one at that.

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ONE person starts at a disadvantage so seven others can have an advantage. You do know that there are already strategies in some fights where one raid member will deliberately eat a death so that more don't have to?

That type of reset doesn't really make sense, though, Pell. I think most assume a CD reset to be the second you Release, or in fights like A8S and EX Primals, when the entire party wipes.

I can't think of a possible way to exploit that, since sacrificing a player to reset the boss will only reset their CD's, not the 7 others (would still need to wait for MP and TP, though).

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

Again from my perspective, cooldown reset would cause quicker burnout and less progress due to people thinking "we'll just wipe and try again" without stopping to think about what went wrong and how to do it better next time.

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I think you're reaching on this. Like really reaching. If you're brand new to a fight and you're with your static, you honestly think you'll die when you see a new mechanic, then immediately wipe, and run in YOLO without discussing it? If you have a static that only talks about strategy because you're waiting on cooldowns, you might need to find a new static.